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CNN International: 136 Dead, 5,000 Wounded In Beirut Explosion. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired August 05, 2020 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:34]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

HALA GORANI, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. I am coming to you live from London. It is 8:00 p.m. here, 10:00 p.m. in Beirut. Welcome to CNN's special breaking news coverage of the devastating explosion in the Lebanese capital.

Tonight the search is on for survivors in twisted rubble of Beirut. At least 135 people are now confirmed dead. More than 5,000 injured following the massive explosion that tore through the city.

The blast is being linked to thousands of tons of explosive material, ammonium nitrate, held in a warehouse in Beirut's port close to -- very close to densely populated areas. Port officials are facing house arrest amid an investigation.

The shock wave damaged homes up to 10 kilometers away. Beirut's governor says at least 300,000 people are now displaced. Lebanon has declared a state of emergency and is calling Beirut a disaster city.

Blocks of the downtown business district just next to the port and the blast site have been leveled. You can see images there -- apocalyptic. The Lebanese Economy Minister says every business in the city has been impacted.

It all piles pressure on a people already suffering from a crippling economic crisis, political unrest, and, of course, the coronavirus pandemic.

Arwa Damon joins me now live from Beirut with more.

So, it has been basically 24 full hours since this horrendous, horrific explosion. Just give us a lay of the land. What is -- how is Beirut trying to cope with this latest tragedy?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, Hala, people are still reeling, and you see it in their facial expressions. You see it in their eyes. You see it in how they struggle to try to find words that can sufficiently express the level of their shock, their trauma, their sorrow, this emotional roller coaster that they have been going through for the last 24 hours.

And one of the many tragic aspects of all of this is that, arguably, this most likely could have been prevented, bearing in mind that we don't yet know the cause of the first explosion or what caused the fire that then somehow ignited those 2,750 metric tons of ammonium nitrate.

But what we do now know through court documents that CNN has obtained is that the Director of Lebanese Customs on numerous occasions since 2014 tried to warn the authorities of the dangers of keeping this volume of this kind of volatile substance in these conditions, especially given the climate.

He tried to get them moved into another location for safer and better storage. But it seems like those appeals by him and by other port authorities as well were not given sufficient importance because, as we now know, these materials stayed there for six to seven years after they were initially confiscated.

And this is one of the many reasons why the population here is really struggling to grapple with all of this.

Look, this is a population that knows Civil War. This is a population that knows what it's like to have the Israelis bomb your city. They know what it's like to experience running gun battles in downtown Beirut. Those years of, you know, targeted assassinations and explosions that took the city.

But none of that prepared the population here for what they went through yesterday evening and the way, the enormity blast, the shock wave that is visible in all the videos that destroyed buildings, that sent glass flying, the vast majority of these injuries, Hala, 5,000 and counting wounded were because of shards of glass. People are still looking for their loved ones.

And at the same time, you do see this rallying among the population, this, you know, recognition once again that they are the only ones who are going to be able to help each other. You have volunteers, small organizations setting up tents for food distribution, to help people find shelter. Medical stations for people with minor injuries to try to ease some of the burden on the hospitals.

But right now, this very much is a population that doesn't exactly know what their future is going to hold, how they are going to save themselves, and how they are going to save their country.

[15:05:31]

GORANI: Well, they don't trust their leaders anymore. We spoke to one eyewitness earlier who said, we don't trust them. They are the ones who caused this. They are not going to be the ones to fix it.

And when I look at the numbers here, the casualty figures, officially, 135 people were killed. But Arwa, as you mentioned hundreds are still missing. What are the latest figures you can share with us?

DAMON: We are not exactly clear. It could be dozens. It could be a lot more. We do know that people are out there trying to find their loved ones because some parts of the areas, especially those that were closest to the port, they have been quite heavily destroyed.

Adding to all of this of course is the fact that communication here is very difficult. Look, reception is horrendous, and in some parts of the city, almost entirely non-existent.

And of course there is a strain being put on because everybody is calling everybody who they know and love just to be reassured that they are okay.

And when it comes to the government, there was even before this explosion the sense that, you know, this government, previous governments -- it's all about political in-trading. It's extraordinarily corrupt.

There isn't this sense among the vast majority of the population that their government is actually looking out for them and what transpired yesterday evening just really solidified that fact especially as more information gets uncovered that's all pointing towards the reality that this just may have been gross, according to some people, criminal negligence.

And so you have this growing sense of frustration, and we have to remember we are still in the midst of a global pandemic. I mean, look, just before this blast took place yesterday, Beirut was getting ready to go into yet another shutdown because coronavirus cases are rising here.

GORANI: Yes. Thank you very much. Arwa Damon there on the ground in Beirut. Currently, I understand Arwa, you have a few days where you need to quarantine before you can head out on the streets, because as you reminded us, we are still in the midst of a pandemic.

Now, who is going to be blamed for this?

Well, if you ask ordinary Lebanese citizens, they will tell you, look, it is the political class that for decades has essentially embezzled money and been acting in corrupt ways, and they are worried that the people in power will find a scapegoat to blame for this whole thing.

Lebanon's Cabinet has ordered house arrest for port officials involved in storing the ammonium nitrate linked to the blast. The question is, will it go higher than that?

But I want to give you a picture here that gives you a sense of the scale of the destruction. This before and after satellite images show just how powerful Tuesday's explosion was. On the right, you can see the port was entirely wiped out. I mean, there's just a whole chunk of it completely gone. Many warehouses were completely flattened.

On the left, it is with that portion of the port looked like before the explosion.

A prominent Lebanese film director says the catastrophic damage is worse than what he witnessed during war between Israel and Hezbollah. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIPE ARACTINGI, FILM DIRECTOR: I have seen war, I've felt war. In 2006, I went to the South Lebanon to see this. It took 30 days to do the same destruction. We had it in one explosion. It is a catastrophe. I have never seen something like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Beirut is still trying to come to grips with what happened and what could cause the blast of such immense proportions. The explosion is being linked to nearly 3,000 metric tons of ammonium nitrate.

The Prime Minister says it was being stored without safety measures at warehouse near the city's port. Ammonium nitrate is typically used as an agricultural fertilizer, but also in high-grade explosives, it can explode.

I mean if it is stored safely, it can be stable. But if it is -- if it comes in contact with heat or a shock of some kind, then potentially it can explode.

A much smaller amount of the same material was used in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing in the United States. That attack killed 169 people.

Sam Kiley joins us now with more. Sam, you have been speaking with explosives experts. What are they telling you about what they believe happened based on the footage and what we can see in pictures and satellite imagery? What do they believe happened here?

[15:10:25]

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, a British bomb expert, Chris Hunter, who is currently already or still working on defusing bombs in Iraq and Syria and training people to do that. He is also a fellow of the Royal Society of Explosive Experts, who would have thought there would be such a thing -- Explosive Engineers, rather, and in his capacity as an analyst, he has been going through the videotape in particular, but also the satellite images and trying to work out how on Earth this blast unfolded.

What detonated that final massive shockwave traveling at more than the speed of sound that great big balloon of smoke is its signature. He is convinced that whatever it was caused a fire, it caused a fire in what has reportedly possibly a storage area for fireworks or for small arms. Relatively intense fire.

And it was the intensity of that fire which he said, particularly if it was inside a container, would have turned that container into a gigantic pipe bomb, but that wasn't the real threat.

That gigantic pipe bomb in his view in all probability detonated this 2,750 metric tons of ammonium nitrate. That's more than 2,000 times bigger than the explosion seen in the Oklahoma City bombings in the Federal building there, which was almost completely destroyed. He thinks that therefore is consistent with the explosion of this

ammonium nitrate, but he is also quite insistent that he doesn't think there was foul play in the detonation of the ammonium nitrate.

It is not clear of course how that original fire started, but he says specifically, it would be impossible to have pulled this off and wouldn't make any sense for professional terrorists.

And let's face it, there are plenty of them around in that part of the world who would normally would have used much more focused explosives, such as ammonium nitrate mixed with fuel or sugar which burns with a black smoke not a white smoke.

So he is pretty sure that was unadulterated ammonium nitrate, albeit in a gigantic quantity pretty close to the center of the city, and stored in an environment, Hala, and it is interesting, in which it degrades into something approaching a solid by absorbing water from its surrounding area for those six or seven years where they were sitting in a warehouse, it would have gone into something approaching a solid, which made it even more capable of combusting in one single moment, and that is exactly what appeared to be unfolding.

GORANI: Well, yes, and of course there will be ample opportunity for people to try to figure out precisely what happened. But if it is the case that this highly volatile material was left for years in a port so close to a densely populated area without safely securing it, people are going -- and are already angry, but will be very much angrier potentially going forward.

Sam, thank you so much and we will keep in touch with you for more on this angle of the story. This explosion is just the latest crisis to strike Lebanon and its capital city. Widespread protests erupted this year in response to decades of government dysfunction.

The country's economy was already faltering before the coronavirus pandemic made things worse and its currency has been in free fall during the past three months.

Let's bring in a Professor Mona Fawaz from the American University of Beirut. Thank you for joining us, Mona Fawaz. First of all, I want to ask you if you are okay, if your friends, loved ones, family members -- I hope no one was hurt.

MONA FAWAZ, PROFESSOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OF BEIRUT: Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Luckily, we are physically safe at home. It was frightening. We had glass fly, but luckily, we physically escaped.

We have lots of friends in the hospitals. Some of my kids' classmates at school have lost parents. So, it is absolutely an awful moment.

GORANI: Yes, and tell us how where 24 hours after this horrendous, massive explosion, how are people trying to cope?

FAWAZ: There has been a lot of solidarity, relly impressive solidarity. Yesterday after the explosion, we had to collect glass from our house and sort of reassure the kids. By 10:00 p.m., three to four hours after the explosion when I finally found the time to head to the hospital to donate blood because they were asking for more blood, they were already full.

Everyone was trying to contribute as much as they could so that they can make a difference.

[15:15:19]

FAWAZ: We spend the morning cleaning our labs here in the university. There is enormous damage in the research labs, in the libraries, everywhere.

So we spent the morning cleaning our labs, trying to get thing back in function so we can see how we can contribute. And then we went over to help friends.

Those who were not directly affected were carrying brooms and sweeping the streets. Really, truly an impressive -- impressive community trying to help each other and to rise to the occasion one more time.

GORANI: You know -- yes, one more time, as you say so, as you rightly say, but people watching from around the world, I mean, they might wonder, how does a country get to the point that it has reached now?

The economic collapse. The corruption among -- in the political class. What has gone so wrong in Lebanon? If you could explain it to people watching us around the world.

FAWAZ: Yes, I think this is a great question. This is exactly why we got to October. This is really I think the logical conclusion, the last -- if anyone needed one more proof of the failure of the economic, political, social system that was put in place at the end of the Lebanese Civil War -- basically, people who ran the war, war lords, went into a conference, forgave each other, no tribunal for the war. No responsibility. Came back. Allied with some new investors who had very strong financial interests in the country, and you had something that they call liberalism -- new liberalism.

That's not capitalism. That's some advanced form of corruption. And I don't know -- no social system, no networks. And this system basically has been in place and it is still very much the same people who are ruling the country. It is the head of the Parliament, the President, everyone was involved in the Civil War.

So you get to a situation where you have borrowed $90 billion that you have squandered. You have not invested in infrastructure. You may have borrowed $90 billion and created the infrastructure of growth because you have an incredible society with a lot of knowledge.

But instead what you have done is the infrastructure is deteriorating. Electricity is coming less and less. So, when you look back and you say what have they done? Basically what is needed a serious change of the way in which the country is governed and that requires accountability and that is exactly what everyone is asking for.

GORANI: Yes. And I can -- I mean, nobody has a crystal ball, but I can predict that once people dust themselves off, they will be out in the street again. They will be angry and they will demand change as they have demanded for months now.

Thank you so much, Mona Fawaz for joining us on this difficult day for your country and your city.

FAWAZ: Thank you for having me.

GORANI: It is not fully clear what -- thank you -- it is not fully clear exactly what caused the massive explosion. When we come back, we will take a look at what we know about the investigation into what sparked this disaster. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:21:10]

GORANI: Welcome back. You are watching a special coverage of the massive blast in Beirut. As of now, nothing indicates that the explosion was deliberate or an attack of any kind. The Lebanese government is investigating what caused it, it says.

On Tuesday, president Trump suggested it may have been an attack, but in the past hour, the U.S. Defense Secretary himself, Mark Esper appeared to refute the President's claim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ESPER, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I am still getting information on what happened. I most believe that it was an accident as reported. And beyond that, I have nothing further to report on that.

It is obviously a tragedy. You know, we mourn for the dozens, if not hundreds of Lebanese possibly killed and thousands hurt. It's just -- Lebanon is struggling right now in a number of ways and it is a shame to see it happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: CNN international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson joins me from London. Are there any other world leaders that believe that there was some sort of foul play here? That there was some sort of attack, as the U.S. President twice said in the last 24 hours?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Most seem to be following the lead of the Lebanese at the moment looking to them for their investigation. And a Lebanese Intelligence official who I spoke to earlier told me they are looking at the possibility of a bomb.

One theory is that it was a bomb that detonated the explosions. They are scrolling through a lot of the footage of all of those different explosions, as many as they can to see precisely what they can find out.

The analysis, though, broadly speaking, doesn't seem to stand up to that. Obviously, the concern that so much ammonium nitrate had been stored there -- we now know how it got there, aboard this Russian small cargo vessel that had left Georgia with all of these fertilizer ammonium nitrate on board, 2,750 metric tons of it aboard, left there in the late summer/early fall of 2013 traveled from Georgia through Istanbul, been called into port in Lebanon to Beirut because of maritime violations where apparently, according to the Captain, the crew were essentially cut loose by the owner, left to the mercy of the authorities in Beirut.

The captain and many of the leading crew had to stay with the vessel even though they knew it was dangerous. Ultimately, the cargo offloaded late 2014 into that warehouse, where it has sat for a long time and where we now understand that Customs officials had been questioning authorities about it and asking for it to be removed.

Also from other international regional Intelligence sources that Lebanon's international partners had been putting pressure on to government to deal with that storage of ammonium nitrate as well.

So, I think at the moment, the world really looks to Lebanese authorities and Intelligence officials to begin to sift through the data that they have as scattered and as messy and as difficult as the situation is right now to develop the real leading theories on this.

GORANI: All right. Thank you Nic Robertson. Well, support is pouring into Lebanon from around the globe. After this explosion, the European Union is sending more than a hundred specialized firefighters as well as assets like vehicles, rescue dogs, and equipment. It has also activated its satellite mapping system to help authorities assess the damage.

The French President, Emmanuel Macron is set to visit Beirut Thursday to show solidarity with the country, Thursday meaning tomorrow. Even Lebanon's long-time adversary, Israel is showing symbolic solidarity following this disaster.

This is the municipality building in Tel Aviv often used for displays like this. It is especially significant given the historic relationship between the two countries. Israel considers Lebanon nothing short of an enemy state. By the way, the feelings are very mutual.

[15:25:21]

GORANI: And the last time Lebanon saw such damage was from Israel's 2006 war with Hezbollah. The two countries don't have any diplomatic relations. In fact if you show up at the Lebanese airport with an Israeli stamp in your passport, it won't do you any favors.

Cyril Vanier joins us live from Paris. What is France sending exactly? Because just a few weeks ago, when there was a high level visit to Beirut, the Lebanese essentially complained that France was asking too much of it in terms of reforms. What are the French doing to help now?

CYRIL VANIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Look, at the moment, Hala, the French President, Emmanuel Macron says that he wants to show his solidarity in person. The Presidential Palace -- we have asked that question. They have not

told us that that solidarity is being linked in any way, shape, or form with any demands that the French President might make on the Lebanese President or the Lebanese government.

So as we understand it, those two things are not necessarily going to be connected. In fact, they are very much officially speaking decoupled. The French President wants to go there. You said it is tomorrow, Thursday, because there are deep ties between France and Lebanon, whether they are historic, language ties, many schools over there are French or follow the French curriculum.

And so Emmanuel Macron wanted to be there in person. He will not be going empty handed because two French plane will also be landing in Lebanon tomorrow, Thursday, carrying 15 tons of equipment, 55 personnel.

France was also keen to point out that French members of the United Nations force on the ground were already active in the search and rescue effort in assisting Lebanon yesterday. That Hala is just part of the international reaction that has come in from every corner of the world expressing support and solidarity with Lebanon.

I also wanted to mention the Queen of England, who sent a personal message of condolence to the Lebanese President. She said she is deeply saddened that her thoughts and prayers go out to the families of those who have been affected in any way, who have been injured. Those who have lost their lives and those who have seen their homes damaged.

You mentioned Israel, I think it bears repeating and bears showing those pictures again, Hala because of course, Israel considers Lebanon an enemy state. They do project messages of solidarity for international victims on occasion, on the municipality building of Tel Aviv.

But, this time, they are doing it with Lebanon and that just carries much deeper meaning. The mayor of Tel Aviv saying humanity is much more important than any armed conflict.

Regional powers, Hala, are also providing assistance, whether it is funds, whether it is teams, medical personnel or equipment that they are all sending to Lebanon.

You know, it's lost on no one, Hala, that this happened at a time when Lebanon was already in deep trouble -- a major economic crisis, deep political turmoil. The country is going to need its international friends and allies urgently -- Hala.

GORANI: Right. Thank you very much. Cyril Vanier in Paris, and when we return, Beirut's governor has compared yesterday's blast to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What Lebanese authorities are now saying about what caused it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:30:00]

GORANI: Welcome back to our special Breaking News coverage of the massive blast in Beirut. Lebanese authorities today declared it a "disaster city," and residents, many of whom are now homeless, are still in shock after the catastrophic explosion that took place on Tuesday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

The death toll today rose to at least 135 people and 5,000 wounded. Dozens of people are still missing. Some 300,000 people have been displaced. CNN's Ben Wedeman was in Beirut when the explosion happened and has more on the search for answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It felt like an earthquake, and it looked like a mushroom cloud. The explosion in Beirut, Tuesday, so massive it shook the ground all the way to Cyprus, 150 miles away. The level of devastation is still being assessed with widespread destruction stretching for miles from the epicenter near Beirut's port. Firefighters and emergency workers rushed to the scene. One that the city's Governor Marwan Abboud described as resembling Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Local hospitals were immediately inundated with hundreds of victims, and the Lebanese Red Cross put out an urgent call for blood donations. The casualty count staggering.

Thousands injured and dozens dead. With the number of dead surely to rise in the hours to come. Initially, the state news agency attributed the cause of the blast to a fire at a fireworks warehouse, but shortly afterwards, the head of Lebanese security said the explosion happened at the site of confiscated high explosive materials. Lebanon's Prime Minister Hassan Diab later said it is unacceptable that a shipment of an estimated 2,750 tons of ammonium nitrate was stored in a warehouse near the port for six years. That, as the country launched an investigation into the cause, expecting an initial report in the coming days.

The Lebanese President has ordered military patrols in the wake of the incident. In a country already on its knees due to a failing economy and the spread of COVID-19. The Lebanese Prime Minister has announced that Wednesday will be a day of mourning. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Beirut.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: This disaster could not have come at a worse time for Lebanon. The country is already in the middle of a full-blown economic crisis. Well, actually, you could call it a full-blown economic collapse. What has been called the biggest threat to its stability since the 1975 Civil War. Currently, one in three people in Lebanon remained unemployed. The lira has lost 80 percent of its value since October 8. Zero was artificially pegged to the dollar for many years, inflation is skyrocketing, hyperinflation is a possibility. And more than 45 percent of people live below the poverty line. All this made worse by the coronavirus pandemic and delays in finalizing an IMF rescue package.

[15:35:08]

I want to bring in Nasser Saidi, former Vice Governor of the Lebanese Central Bank, and also former Minister of Economy and Industry of Lebanon. And he joins me now from London via Skype. I hope, Mr. Saidi, that your loved ones and friends and family in Beirut in Lebanon are all OK.

NASSER SAIDI, FORMER VICE GOVERNOR, LEBANESE CENTRAL BANK: They're safe; they just escaped. They were in our apartment. The glass broke, windows collapsed, but at least, they have learned from previous experiences. We've had so much disaster in Lebanon, that they went into the corridor. So, at least, that protected them. So, like many people in Lebanon, it's a disaster; it's apocalyptic as you've seen. We've never had anything like that despite our sad history of disasters, explosions, bloody -- but this has overwhelmed anything that we've seen in the past.

And the net result of it is extreme anger. I mean, after the shock, what people are talking about, what people are feeling now is extreme anger. There is no longer any will to accept a system which is so corrupt, such incompetence, that you allow explosive material to be stored in the port for six years. And despite reports, nobody does anything, this is simply unacceptable.

GORANI: Let me ask you how you get to -- from A to B or from a system that is -- that is corrupt to -- from essentially a -- I mean, a kleptocracy in many ways, a banking Ponzi scheme, corruption, incompetence, the whole -- the whole -- I mean, we know the list of words that describe the Lebanese economy and the system, but we don't know necessarily how to make it better. How do you even begin here?

SAIDI: Well, this country need political reform, that's very clear. The job government came in following the protests which started in October. We have been promised as part of the protests and activism that we would have an independent government i.e. independent ministers who are not beholden to the kleptocracy. Unfortunately, we did not get that. Effectively, you have an incompetent government. They have undertaken no reforms since they've been in power since February of earlier this year.

And yet, the reform agenda is very clear. You need to undertake monetary reform. You mentioned the Ponzi scheme run by the Central Bank. You need to understand fiscal reform. We know exactly what needs to happen. Sectoral reform, the power sector, a major item of corruption. And despite that, nothing has happened. The negotiations with the IMF were based -- were based on a paper the government prepared, which listed the whole wish list of reforms. Not a single one has been implemented. And here we are nine months after the protests, getting pretty close to the anniversary, and nothing has happened. So, you have not only incompetence ...

GORANI: So, what is your biggest -- can I ask you --

SAIDI: Yes. GORANI: I understand the point you're making. But where are we going

then? Because if after all the protests and obviously even pressure from the IMF, from France, from outside countries who were saying, we're not going to keep bailing you out, unless you -- unless you put in place, put in practice real reforms. But you might look at a country that could be another Venezuela, right, with hyperinflation, with 60, 70, 80 percent of the population out of work. Yes?

SAIDI: I called it. I called it. Yes. Well, we -- Lebanon is becoming what I call a "Lebazuella." It's another version of Venezuela. You're getting now mass migration being prepared, or verging on hyperinflation. Last month's inflation rate was 20 percent per month. Once you start getting to 50 percent per month, that's hyperinflation. You're getting a financial collapse and banking collapse; the currency will collapse. And the big thing, of course, is the humanitarian disaster. I think you mentioned already poverty rates 50 percent of the population. Food poverty rates 25 percent of the population. This is unprecedented. We have not had that since the famine of 1918. So, that's -- this is where it's heading.

GORANI: Yes. Yes.

SAIDI: On this, there is intervention. And the only intervention I can see at the moment is from the outside to push an incompetent government and politicians out of power. Otherwise, you're going to get increasing violence, I think, on -- in the streets. That, I think is what's going to be happening very soon.

[15:40:09]

GORANI: Because one thing Venezuela doesn't have to deal with is a war like the Syrian War, you know, right on its border, and the millions of refugees, and potentially, you know, more sectarian violence. I mean, those types of things that are particular -- that are particular to the Middle East, that are aggravating factors.

SAIDI: Those -- yes, those aggravate.

GORANI: I mean, you could really end up with even a worse scenario, right? Yes?

SAIDI: That is correct. That is correct. I mean, it is -- it is a total collapse and meltdown; unprecedented in our history. But there are only two solutions that I see. Either you get a full-scale revolt, a revolution. Potentially, you could have a military takeover. You know, having two weeks of military law being applied. It may very well be when the army decides that they want to go for a coup. And then, relieve the politicians of -- relieve us of the politicians. Alternatively, altogether, you might have external intervention. And you need this external intervention. It's not only from an IMF program point of view. In other words, you -- if you want the IMF money and international assistance, you have to undertake reforms.

But I think the other point is about governance and political reform. And President Macron is visiting Lebanon tomorrow. I think his message is going to be very clear to our politicians; you have to reform and we will not support you with any funding if you do not reform. Clearly, humanitarian aid has got to be a priority -- has got to be a priority. But I think the political message has got to come from the rest of the world.

And it's urgent, we don't want another failed state on the Mediterranean coast. You don't want another failed state, like Syria and Iraq and others. The rest of the world really cannot afford that. Can Europe -- can Europe really look ahead and say, I'm going to have mass migration from Lebanon and refugees at its doorstep? Can we afford to have Lebanon become a failed state? Because that's where we're heading.

GORANI: Nasser Saidi, thank you so much for joining us --

SAIDI: Thank you.

GORANI: -- on CNN, with your thoughts on this, on this very sad day for the country and for Beirut. The world is racing for a COVID-19 vaccine because that's obviously still going on. And Johnson & Johnson has reached a billion-dollar deal to provide the U.S. government with 100 million doses. Up next, we'll hear from a former U.S. Surgeon General. 100 million doses but we don't have the vaccine yet. But if and when it comes, that would be the deal. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:43]

GORANI: With the world racing to find a Coronavirus vaccine, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has announced a $1 billion deal with Johnson & Johnson. Subsidiary Janssen Pharmaceuticals will manufacturer 100 million doses of a potential COVID-19 vaccine currently under development. The doses could be used in clinical trials as part of a COVID-19 vaccination program. The U.S. could also purchase an additional 200 million doses under a subsequent agreement. More than 157,000 people have now died from COVID-19 in the United States.

Joining me now via Skype from Atlanta, Georgia is Dr. David Satcher. He's a former U.S. Surgeon General and former Director of the Centers for Disease Control. Thank you very much, doctor, for joining us. Are you -- do you find the news of this deal with Johnson & Johnson encouraging? How optimistic should we be?

DR. DAVID SATCHER, FORMER U.S. SURGEON GENERAL (via Skype): I find the news encouraging. Yes, I think we have made much more progress towards the development of a vaccine than we has ever made -- we have ever made before. So, I think it's encouraging that the government is investing in Johnson & Johnson as a way of assuring that we couldn't have the vaccines that we need when the time comes. So, it's a smart investment, I think. And Johnson & Johnson is a well-established company.

GORANI: I'm sure. And so, when you reach this stage in vaccine trials, usually, and you have some measure of success at this stage of the process, how likely is it then that you will be able to devise to manufacture a vaccine that that will work, that will protect people from COVID-19?

SATCHER: Well, I think we've gotten past the earliest stages where we showed that the vaccine could, in fact, be administered safely. And now, of course, the questions are, if you bring a large group of people together, usually about the 30,000, and give them this vaccine, how did -- how did they do overall in terms of their health and the effectiveness of the vaccine, and protecting them from the violence? I think that's the stage we are now. The first stage was primarily, you know, is it -- is it -- can you safely give a person this vaccine? And I'm -- but I think we're beyond that now.

GORANI: Right. So, that means that, potentially, as you mentioned, tens of thousands of people could be given this vaccine and then just kind of monitor just to see if their infection rate is lower than the general population?

SATCHER: Yes, I think they're probably looking at about 30,000 people to receive this vaccine and then to be monitored for how they respond to it, but also how well it protects them from the virus.

GORANI: Sure. And I'm speaking to you from London. Of course, the U.K.'s figures are, you know, there were worse than any other European country. But overall, compared to the United States, the number of deaths compared to the population have been much lower in Europe. Why is it that in the U.S., so many states are still seeing such a, you know, drastic increase in the number of cases and deaths at this stage of the pandemic? What's -- what is -- what are authorities doing so wrong?

SATCHER: Well, I think the main problem has been the lack of a unified approach. So, that it was very clear that everybody would be doing certain things and not doing so in other things. I think we've allowed states and localities to develop their own rules in many cases. And so, we've missed the opportunity to really monitor very closely how well states and localities were, in fact, sheltering in place, wearing mask, and all of those things.

[15:50:22]

I mean, we allowed localities and states to sort of do their own thing. And I think we're paying a price for that now. Some of the states that we're doing well, back when the State of New York was the main state that was struggling with this epidemic, the states that were doing well, and that included California, Arizona, Georgia, and others are not doing so well now. Those states did not exercise the same control of behavior, sheltering in place, wearing a mask, et cetera. And so now, we're trying to catch up, basically, in terms of --

GORANI: Right.

SATCHER: Go ahead.

GORANI: No, I was -- I was -- I was just thanking you for that thought, that all of these states, you mentioned California as another one, as well. Dr. David Satcher, thank you very much, the former U.S. Surgeon General for joining us on CNN. We really appreciate your thoughts and I hope to speak again soon as these trials continue. When we come back on CNN, more on our special coverage of the explosion in Beirut. We took a closer look at the unbelievable and widespread damage done to the city. Stay with us.

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GORANI: Welcome back to our special Breaking News coverage of the Beirut blast. These before-and-after satellite images show just how powerful the explosion was yesterday. The satellite imagery shows the diameter of the crater appears to be roughly 125 meters, well over a football field in length. That's where you see that big chunk of concrete essentially -- it looks like it was bitten off of that section of the port. Hospitals are overwhelmed and some families are still trying to find loved ones today.

[15:55:05]

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IBRAHIM SHAMAS, NEPHEW IS MISSING (through translator): My nephew is 29 years old. From 7:00 in the evening, we've been all over every hospital in Beirut. And now, we are waiting for the names to come out and nothing has come out. We don't know if he's dead or alive. We just don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We have at least 300 wounded in the hospital right now. We have six operating suites that are still operating right now. And this keeps dialing up with another group that needs attention. We have about four to five in intensive care. We've three that arrived dead. Every one of our crew, doctors and nurses, are operating, even administration, everyone is working.

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GORANI: While a lot of people are asking how they can help, so you can actually check our Web site: cnn.com/impact. Some groups are still assessing the news. You can count on us, though, to keep updating this list. There is a -- there is a link that will take you to the American Red Cross. But if you click on it, there's this emergency Lebanon appeal, so you can make sure that your money -- the money you donate to the American Red Cross will be directed to Lebanon. I'm Hala Gorani, thanks very much for watching. Our coverage continues after the break.

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