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Joe Biden Formally Becomes Democratic Presidential Nominee; High Profile Republicans Show Up to Support Biden. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired August 19, 2020 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[02:00:00]

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DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: 2:00 am here on the East Coast.

You know what that means, Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: It means it's late.

LEMON: That means my coffee buzz is running out. It means it's Wednesday and we are gearing up for night three of the Democratic National Convention.

I'm Don Lemon alongside that guy, Christopher Cuomo.

CUOMO: We work so hard, we work two days in a row. We work from Tuesday into Wednesday. That's how we do.

LEMON: We are the clean up crew. We have to make sure everything is right. Maybe the guys before us screwed it up. I will put it that way.

CUOMO: We are the clean-up crew and we do our job with full gusto.

So big night, why?

The Democrats checked the box. They have a nominee now for President of the United States. And it is former V.P., Joe Biden. He accepted in person in a surprise appearance in Milwaukee and on Twitter. Here's a taste.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Thank you very, very. From the bottom of my heart, thank you all. It means the world to me and my family. And I will see you on Thursday.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: All right but there was not that much applause and it was weird. Yes, welcome to the new normal. This is how we have to live right now. But a big moment for him, third time is the charm. LEMON: It was a big moment. I thought it was cool, better than just

accepting it on Twitter, which we thought was going to be the -- these are the times. Chris, we have talked about it. These are the times we are living in.

So Chris and I, same building, right next to each other but in different studios.

CUOMO: Can you hear this?

Let me take our ever-present wipes --

LEMON: Yes, I heard it. I heard it. Don't do that again.

CUOMO: We are in adjacent cells.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: It's a little scary. But then you have people all over the country who have been doing the so-called Zooms or in these "The Brady Bunch" boxes because of something very serious happening in the country.

We saw Joe Biden twice tonight. Once there accepting and right after his wife gave such -- his imprimatur, right, his greatest imprimatur is his wife, who gave such a wonderful speech about him. Let's listen a bit to that if we have it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN: Hey, everyone. I'm Jill Biden's husband, as you heard tonight, you can see why she is the love of my life and the rock of our family. She never gives herself much credit.

But the truth is, she is the strongest person I know. She has a backbone like a ramrod, she loves fiercely and cares deeply. Nothing stops her when she sets her mind to getting something right.

Now for all of you out there across the country, just think of your favorite educator who gave you the confidence to believe in yourself. That's the kind of first lady, lady, lady, lady, this Jill Biden will be.

God love you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: He was going to go in to "Lady" ...

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: I don't know where he was going with that.

LEMON: "You are my knight in shining armor and I love you."

(CROSSTALK) CUOMO: -- the curiosity in listening to -- I don't think that we have ever had two candidates in Trump and Biden who make it more interesting to listen to them and just see what they are going to say and how often it deviates from what you thought would make sense in the moment.

It's interesting, you used the word "imprimatur." With both Michelle Obama and Jill Biden, you have a reality of marriage that is often silenced in politics, which is, where the woman who may not be the candidate, OK, and often wasn't, until recently, was actually the motivating force for what you saw in the man who was.

That is every bit the reality from everything that we understand about the Obamas. I know it even better with the Bidens. Joe Biden would not be running where he is today if it not were his wife.

He needed people to get him to want to do this. His son told him to do it when he was dying, Joe was not ready. His head and his heart weren't in it. His wife believed it was the right thing to do. I was surprised by that when I heard it.

That's what she means in the relationship.

[02:05:00]

CUOMO: The days of where the spouse is window dressing are over. These are teams. These are partnerships. And that is very true with Jill and Joe Biden. The love is real. But you know how I feel about that stuff. Personal lives mean less and less to me.

What would they bring to office?

That woman is every bit the equal intellectually and in terms of determination to serve as the man running.

LEMON: I was going to say ditto because I know it more from the Obama side more than the Biden side. Although I have met Ms. Biden, very kind woman.

CUOMO: She took it to me in my big interview with Joe.

LEMON: Oh, as well she should have.

CUOMO: No, they were both wrong. It was a timing issue. And my point is the interview doesn't end until you stop talking. And Jill came out and was like, we got to go during the interview and that was it. Joe was like, all right, I have to go.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: But I know from the Obama side, because I got to watch President Obama, he was state senator when I was in Chicago and then became a U.S. senator and then the whole convention speech. So I got to watch his rise.

But if you look at it in a traditional sense of how America deems success, Ms. Obama was the more successful of the couple, right?

Being a bigwig in a hospital, running a hospital, running a company or an organization. President Barack Obama had not done that. He was a community organizer, something that was great in its own right.

But the traditional model of what's successful in this country, she was it. And had she said, I don't want you to run for president, I don't want to do this, he would not have done it.

She, I think reluctantly, took on the role, the political part of it but was very supportive of her husband. So I know that side.

Now as far as her, as I said, being a -- Ms. Biden being his greatest imprimatur -- yes, she is very relatable. The teachers who I had who were not in nuns' habits reminded me of her. The teachers that helped me.

You could say, oh, Ms. Biden was my third grade science teacher and she helped me get through this and she helped me do that, very relatable, down to Earth, as is Ms. Obama, as is Cindy McCain, who also spoke up for Joe Biden tonight.

CUOMO: Yes, I think he was helped a lot by people who want you to know what he is about. Again, you know ordinarily that can be tricky for a candidate.

How likeable are they?

How do you get people to like them?

This election, that's the easy part for Joe Biden. He doesn't have to fake being a good man. That's what he is, period. You don't have to like his politics. Many in his own party don't like his politics and that's the harder part.

How does he get the cats into a collective?

And then how does he make the country believe that he can get better out of government than what we are getting right now?

Because a lot of people just don't believe it, Don. You are a good guy but this system you are in, brother, you will never change it. He may run into that as well.

LEMON: Yes. Think about it though, the relatability of first ladies, right?

How can you not like -- how could you not like Jill Biden?

How could she not be relatable?

She is such a kind and decent woman. The same thing about the former first lady, Michelle Obama, when you think about Laura Bush, how could you not like them?

Not really political people. Hillary Clinton was very polarizing because she was a political animal. She ran for politics. She was a U.S. senator and she got involved in her husband's administration with health care and became polarizing a bit because people did not see women traditionally in that role. And she took a very strong role in her husband's administration.

And then I think eventually had to back off a little bit because it was causing him some issues. That's my memory of it.

But when you think about at least current first ladies, I mean, Laura Bush, you had to love her. Michelle Obama, you had to love her. Jill Biden, if she becomes the first lady, you have to love her. As the second lady, people loved her. She is very relatable and very down to Earth.

What is not to like?

CUOMO: I get you, I always didn't like the pageantry; I grew up in this.

LEMON: By the way, speaking of strong women, just so you know, someone named Christina, says, "Nice tie, good show."

CUOMO: To me?

LEMON: No, the text came to me.

CUOMO: You were unclear about it. But she thinks you need the boost.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: It's hard for you to run stride for stride with the big dog. You know what I mean?

LEMON: Make your point, go on.

CUOMO: She is trying give you a boost.

Look, I grew up in this. So my mother had to compromise what she wanted for the family, what she wanted for her own life, to suit my father's political ambitions. And the whole family had to own it.

[02:10:00]

CUOMO: And it was hard and life was hard for her in a lot of ways that it did not have to be. And what I always thought was interesting was, my mother is educated. You know, my mother worked hard to be a teacher. It was a time where her generation was not encouraged to do those things.

And there's always been too much of a premium on women in our culture on the likeability, the pretty, the nice, the thing.

And I think we are finally starting to phase out of it, in at least one way that matters, where, we are not really that impressed that Michelle Obama knocks it out of the park. It's not embarrassing to say she is a better speaker than her husband.

Jill Biden is quicker than her husband. It's not an insult. It's just the truth. And I think that's part of the reason that the men love and depend on them as partners. And it's nice to see that.

Forget the mold. Get rid of it. If you have value to apply, apply it. If you have intelligence, bring it. I don't care what your role is because all marriages, everything is changing now. Two is better than one.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: That's what makes a marriage work and what makes a relationship work and it's what makes government work. So it's good to see Jill Biden giving context to being a teacher, knowing how we are screwing over our kids right now. She is right about that and hopefully she can add something to it, if they win, big if.

LEMON: I'm not going to disagree with you, a family of women, all sisters, a mom --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Look at your mom.

LEMON: -- all very accomplished and very strong women. My nieces, come on. So -- and you -- it's just you and Mario in the house. You know, like 18 against one.

CUOMO: Hands are up at all times. I don't want any trouble.

LEMON: No, I think -- listen, you are absolutely, you are right about that. And it's time that we change that mold. And it's time -- soon, I think -- and I should say, way past time that we have a woman as President of the United States.

CUOMO: The faster that we ask a society harness our diversity, the stronger we will become. Women are an excellent example of our diminished capacity. If women were every bit as involved as men are, imagine how much stronger we would be.

Look at the countries, the study they just did. The countries that are led by women recovered from coronavirus faster.

LEMON: Yes. I wonder why that is?

I don't know how much of that -- that probably had something to do with women but also a lot to do with the person in charge regardless of what, you know, what sex they are or gender.

Speaking of strong women, you have one coming up.

CUOMO: Let me tell you something, I feel bad for Paul Begala, because Angela Rye poked the dragon and now she has to deal with the fire.

The fire is coming your way.

(LAUGHTER)

CUOMO: Paul Begala, Angela --

LEMON: You keep shaking your head, shake your head though.

CUOMO: Shake it. I'm coming back, right after this segment. Face the fury.

(LAUGHTER)

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[02:15:00]

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CUOMO: Joe Biden is a good man. That is easy, that is an easy sell. He is the right man, the right man for this party, the state of the Democratic Party right now, right man for this time, in this country; tougher sell.

So what did that look like in the second night of the DNC unconventional convention?

What was good?

What leaves something to be desired?

The second part will probably matter more moving forward. But we have two beautiful guests for this. Paul Begala and Angela Rye.

I was giving Angela a hard time but I love her and I need her and it's great to have you both on the show.

Paul, let's start with what you liked.

What worked for you tonight?

What did you feel had the party positioned at its best?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there was a one-two punch of President Clinton, breaking tradition, really went after Donald Trump. It was a very calm, very sedate delivery because there was no audience. But he just stuck the knife in.

And then, at the end, Dr. Jill Biden. Oh, my gosh, the best case that I have ever heard made for her husband. He's a terrific guy, you are right. But for her to make the case the way she did, about the country as well as their family and how he can stitch together the country the same way he pulled back together his family after multiple tragedies.

I thought that was great. You want to -- you have to make the case against the guy, why to fire him and then you have to make the case why the Democrats are the better one to hire. CUOMO: Angela, is my read right or wrong on this?

On one level, I like that we are not putting women in a box and we're letting them bring the value that they offer. Michelle Obama, shouldn't be a surprise that she gives a great speech. She keeps doing it every time she gives on. No surprise.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Jill Biden, she understands that we are doing our kids dirty, she comes from the classroom, she understands it.

Now similarly, AOC, not even saying Joe Biden's name, having like 90 seconds, I don't want to get it wrong but I think it was like 90 seconds. She is the face of the progressive wing of the party in many ways that Bernie Sanders is not.

Stacey Abrams, every Democrat wants to talk about Stacey Abrams is aspirational and then, they didn't really -- am I wrong about this?

That seems like that missed?

ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm completely in your amen corner here, Chris.

CUOMO: What did you say?

(CROSSTALK)

RYE: I'm in your amen corner on this, not on the ghetto boys.

CUOMO: Oh, I got you. There you go again. Had to bring it up.

RYE: Here's the point: what we have to understand is that, we have said for a long time, that the Democratic Party is the big tent party. The only time the big tent is supposed to apply is when it's time to go and cast your votes.

It has not been a big tent when it comes to influence. It has not been a big tent when it comes to leadership and power and exercising that power. And it has not been a big tent when it comes time to talk about an agenda and demands.

And AOC has been super clear had that she hadn't been ready to endorse Joe Biden until she saw some things from her agenda in his. One and the same, you've seen a lot -- I mean, within my own community, a ton of backlash for us writing an op-ed with demands in it.

This is not to wound Joe Biden, this is to make him stronger.

[02:20:00]

RYE: Diversity is supposed to be the thing we tell companies all the time, impacts your bottom line. This impacts his bottom line. His bottom line might not be revenue but it's votes. And he has to count the votes. He used to be the whip for the Committee on Homeland Security, the staff whip; he needs to learn how to count votes.

And the only way to the victory is through Black and brown communities. So he has got to shore these up. And Stacey Abrams not talking long enough tonight, that was a big had miss, too. I have some others.

CUOMO: Hillary Clinton doing better at this point with minority voters than Joe Biden, Begala, that is an issue. You have to have your base come out in a way it did not in 2016 or you may wind up in the same situation at the end of the day.

BEGALA: Absolutely. And I do think this, this debate about, oh, should the Democrats reach out to swing voters in the suburbs or should they rally their base?

I just think it's stupid and pointless. It's like saying, I should use my right lung or my left lung?

Should the airplane have a right wing or a left wing?

You need both. You have to do both. And you can't do both -- with the exception of Michelle Obama -- you cannot do both with one speech and one speaker. A brick is not a wall.

So you had, for example, the keynote, it was not turned over to a standard politician. It was 17 rising stars. Only three of those 17 were white dudes like me. That's the future of the Democratic Party, really impressive folks.

So you have to do both. Wait until the convention ends. Tomorrow, the lineup tomorrow, not just Hillary Clinton, who you mentioned: Elizabeth Warren; Nancy Pelosi; Michelle Lujan Grisham, the governor of New Mexico; Gabby Giffords, a former congresswoman from Arizona; and then the nominee for vice president, Kamala Harris.

This is going to be a powerhouse group of women, some of color, some -- not all of them -- pushing Joe Biden toward victory. I think it will be terrific tomorrow.

CUOMO: What do you like?

What do you want more of -- Rye?

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Not you, Van Gogh -- Rye.

(LAUGHTER)

RYE: Oh, well, thank you, I'm glad I have the floor.

I want to drill down on one other point that I think is important. We have not talked much about Sally Yates and her speech tonight, this is also telling. There are a number of people outside of the political space that don't know who she is. Yes, she is super important but they gave her more time than Stacey

Abrams. I'm just talking about bad calculation. To Paul's point about a right lung and a left lung, absolutely, especially with the coronavirus epidemic, we need both lungs, right?

But I'm saying, like, think about it that way.

Who are you engaging?

Who from the convention committee is involved in programming this?

I appreciate the rising stars moment. What I really appreciate about the party's diversity is the roll call vote, it was super powerful, way better than anything we have ever seen on the convention floor.

But we are still having people say "build back better." That is a remix of "make America great again." Going backwards triggers me. It doesn't make me feel better about the direction of the country. We need to be talking about going forward.

I don't know, who -- Paul, I hope it was not you because you know, I love you -- was responsible for "build back better"?

But it's horrible framing and it is tone deaf for people of color, who just spent an entire several weeks marching about George Floyd, protesting police violence, protesting against racial injustice also, which was hardly mentioned today. And it's not right.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: You have a perfect delivery device also. We are living in the midst of pandemic. You saw that roll call, people all over the country, almost all of them were somehow mask sensitive within their own presentation.

It checks every box of our struggles. People of color are getting sick more. They are getting treated less. They are getting treated worse. They have more at-risk factors than more essential workers by percentage.

It's every inequity that we deal with, is literally killing us right now in real time. You don't have to make it up, there is no sell, it's just dealing with the obvious.

And what is also obvious is, Paul, thank you, always a pleasure; especially 2:23 here in the morning on the East Coast. Thank you.

And Angela Rye, always a pleasure.

RYE: Thank you, Chris Cuomo.

Thank you, Paul.

BEGALA: Thanks, Angela.

CUOMO: All right, Joe Biden's most important political moment is less than 48 hours away. Democrats are again turning to Republicans to help deliver this convention's case to voters.

Why?

What is the plus-minus on this move?

Is it Left-Right and reasonable?

Or is it going to get into this mix of teams and traitors?

Ron Brownstein, Karen Finney -- next.

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[02:25:00]

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LEMON: Well, it's the wee hours now but Democrats wrapping up night two of their virtual convention and for the second night in a row, we saw prominent Republicans making the case for Joe Biden.

What is up with that?

Well, why don't we ask Ron Brownstein and Karen Finney?

Welcome back to the program.

And good mornting?

(LAUGHTER)

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: -- West Coast time.

LEMON: Ron, what is up with that?

Is that -- is this a winning strategy for Democrats to have all of these Republicans, more time with Colin Powell than with Bill Clinton and AOC?

BROWNSTEIN: In general, I think yes. Obviously the question of how much time AOC had is independent of it. But there's a historic opportunity for Democrats. The way Donald Trump has -- the line he has drawn through the electorate has unmoored millions, traditionally Republican leaning, suburban, college educated voters, mostly white, some nonwhite.

And what they are trying to do is build a permission structure for those voters to make them feel comfortable.

Not only the speakers we saw today but all the things that The Lincoln Project is doing. Republican voters against Trump; it's not so much hardcore Republicans than it is the college educated independents, who often vote Republican. And there's evidence that it is working. So I think it makes sense for the Democrats talking about their breadth here.

LEMON: So let me ask you this, because AOC is talked about a lot, especially in conservative media and more in conservative media than mainstream media. She's turning out to be the bogeywoman. Not kind of; she is. She's made up part of The Squad.

But I don't hear that many people in real life talking about AOC.

BROWNSTEIN: Sure.

LEMON: I don't hear my progressive nieces actually spending that much time.

[02:30:00]

So I am wondering, is it just a media -- is she more popular in the media? Are we giving her too much credit? Are Democrats right on that she is not -- well, not just her specifically -- but part of the squad, they are not as big of a part of the Democratic Party's platform as people think they are?

Or are Democrats at risk of alienating the progressive wing of their party by not giving her a bigger platform and paying more attention to her?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: If you are asking me --

LEMON: Yes.

BROWNSTEIN: I would say that she is a very talented politician who has a very big future, but she is not -- and she is -- and in many ways she maybe where the Democratic Party is evolving and the Democratic coalition is evolving.

But today, she is not a center of the party. I don't mean center ideologically, I kind of center of gravity of the party.

If you look at the House Democratic Caucus, the idea that she is most identified with is Medicare-for-All, her version of a Green New Deal are nowhere near a majority even in the Democratic Caucus.

I mean, they don't have the votes to pass solely among Democrats, and she is an important voice and represents an important part of the constituency, both demographically and ideologically, but ultimately, Joe Biden's coalition is somewhat different than she envisions it.

It does include more older voters, more college educated white voters, and he may never turnout as many younger and nonwhite voters as Democrats hope for, as Obama once did.

He has his own coalition and these strengths will come out in governing. But I think that you can overstate the degree to which she is the Democratic Party of today as opposed to where the Democratic Party maybe evolving in the future.

LEMON: Karen? KAREN FINNEY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Joe Biden has talked about being

a bridge -- sort of from, I think how they put it -- from between Bill Clinton to AOC, and while I think most of us do consider ourselves progressives, understand they're trying to do in creating this permission structure and reaching out to independents and moderates, you still cannot take anything for granted.

I am here to tell you, I went through it in 2016. You cannot take black and brown voters for granted.

And so what I do think, I am less concerned about how much time AOC got and more concerned about how much time we haven't yet had for more progressive voices.

I would have liked to hear frankly from some of those fabulous 17 people that were featured in that keynote address. That's the future.

AOC is absolutely part of the future of our party, but so are those leaders. We have more potential AOC type stars out there and conventions are an opportunity to have those people shine.

So I think it's always a delicate balance. No question. But I do think and certainly hope, like a lot of us, that by tomorrow, so tomorrow and Thursday, there is more outreach to the progressive part of this party, to black people.

The fact that Tracy Ellis Ross in her opening talked about her experience as a black woman, that was very important. You have a black woman on the stand, black women, black people got Joe Biden where he is. Don't forget those people. And don't assume that we don't also want to hear you speaking more directly to us as well.

LEMON: Preach. Preach.

BROWNSTEIN: Can I say something?

LEMON: You can, but I want to go on to something else. Go ahead, Ron.

BROWNSTEIN: Real quick, I was going to say, I think for most people viewing though, if you kind of look at the imagery that came through from this convention tonight, both the 17 and then even more so in the kaleidoscopic, brilliant reimagining of the roll call as a kind of a tour across America, the Democratic Party sent, I think a pretty clear signal that it's leaning into the way America is changing, leaning into what America is becoming.

And a very stark contrast, I think to when the Republicans leaked out that they are going to have as a speaker to their convention, the St. Louis couple that waved guns at protesters in their neighborhood. That's the dividing line in American politics today.

Whether you welcome or fear the way the country is changing, and it does create opportunities for Democrats to reel in voters who have been on the other side of the partisan line.

I mean -- LEMON: Fear is a big motivator.

BROWNSTEIN: I think each party has to win this. Very clear, just in that contrast over that matter of the way that Trump was in Yuma today reprising the lines from his announcement speech about rapists and murderers.

I mean, that is the line he wants to draw. And I think Democrats are taking an opportunity of the advantage that creates.

LEMON: Quickly, Karen, please.

FINNEY: You know, my point is, it is a delicate balance. Don't forget. When we look at where Hillary Clinton lost, take Wisconsin for example, Milwaukee County is a big part of where we lost and she underperformed with black voters.

We can't afford that kind of loss again in 2020. So all I am suggesting is the future of the party in this country look more like myself than you, Ron, all due love and respect.

[02:35:25]

FINNEY: And so make sure that we have ample time on the stage to talk about the issues that matter to us and that we see ourselves reflected and I love the roll call, too. I think it changed everything.

But I think you still have to maybe tip that balance a little bit more in these next two nights.

LEMON: All right, thank you both. I appreciate it. I enjoyed the conversation. More to come. We have more nights to come with this convention.

So we are also watching the other major story and that's the coronavirus.

While night two of the D.N.C. unfolded, the number of cases around the world topped 22 million. In this country, they are nearing 5.5 million. We are going to talk to Dr. Amy Compton Phillips about that. She is next.

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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: We know why Jill Biden, a parent and former teacher, gave her speech in a classroom. Just days into the new academic year, schools all over are reporting hundreds of cases just days after resuming in-person classes.

By the way, do we know exactly how many? No. Why? We don't have a national database that is tracking this. Think about that. You are in the middle of a pandemic. You are saying it is okay for kids to go back to school.

Yes, they've got to put forward a plan and do other things, but you are saying it's okay and you are not tracking it? Really? A hundred seventy five students have tested positive at Iowa State University. At Notre Dame, 147 students are positive. Now, they are going to go virtual for two weeks.

[02:40:03]

CUOMO: Remember, opening is easy. Staying open is hard. At Colorado College, all 155 students from one dorm are now in quarantine. Why? Just one kid tested positive. Why? He didn't follow social distancing guidelines.

You heard what's going on at UNC Chapel Hill, right? A hundred thirty students there tested positive. It was the first college to send students home after reopening.

Could more follow? How could they not follow? What should we do? Testing. Testing would have made the difference. Rapid testing would have made the difference. Dr. Amy Compton Phillips joins us now. It is good to see you, Doc.

DR. AMY COMPTON PHILLIPS, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Thanks so much for having me, Chris.

CUOMO: I am burned up about this. I kind of feel the way you made me and the country feel frankly about PPE early on. Really necessary, very vital to doing the job we want and we could be doing so much better if people just took it seriously.

You really helped and of course, changed culture in terms of how to access it by doing the job together. I will never be able to thank you enough for that.

Now, here we are with schools. We both know, if we had rapid testing at the level, or hopefully better that the U.K. was able to do in six weeks, school looks totally different if you can test every kid every day, every other day, doesn't it?

PHILLIPS: It absolutely does. It makes everything so much more feasible. In fact, that is how they caught those cases at universities. They were screening kids when they came in. They weren't waiting for people to show up with symptoms.

And if we had what the White House has, right, that they had testing on everybody every day, you can identify and capture cases, isolate people and let everybody else go on with their lives, and that is the whole goal of testing, it isn't about creating more cases or creating a bad narrative. It is about stopping the virus in its tracks, and you are exactly right, we need to do the same kind of work with getting testing available broadly as we did with getting PPE available.

CUOMO: Now, help me, and look, you know, they don't know, but we know because we lived it. I call Amy on the phone, I call a doctor on the phone, she gave me straight talk about what was going on, where I should go with an angle, where I shouldn't and why, and invaluable resource.

This hybrid thing drives me crazy as a parent, because it smells like a hedge to me. Of course, we know we are both parents, we can't wait to get the kids out of the house. I would be satisfied by just about any standard, just to get them back in school.

But the idea that you are going to take my little girl or boy and put them in school for a couple of days where they can get exposed, and you can't really test and count, and then you're going to bring it home and screw up our lives about who can work and when?

It seems like the worst of both worlds. What am I missing? Why is it is so popular?

PHILLIPS: Well, it's popular because people are desperate for solutions. You know, this one of those Sophie's choice moments where we have absolutely no good choices, and every single school district because the C.D.C. has a muzzle on it and they aren't able to help us make those kinds of rational whatever the right cut points.

So everybody is making it up as they go along. They are trying to make good decisions in the face of actually really poor capacity to have data informed decisions, because exactly what you said, we don't have an infrastructure to learn from what we are doing.

We have all these natural experiments happening, but if we can't measure the outcome of those experiments, this school district is doing Plan A, that school district is doing Plan B, we can't learn from it. We can't rapidly move the country forward.

CUOMO: And now, look, I'm really slow to blame the kids. Kids are going to do what they are going to do and for a lot of them, these are big points in their lives. You know, my oldest is going to be a senior in high school. She has got to figure out where she wants to go to college, can she get in? That whole experience is going to be messed up, and life is hard. It is good to learn some lessons and not everything goes the way you want.

But when I talk about COVID-idiocy, I'm talking that the idiots who are the leaders. They had time, Amy, they could have done better than this. They still could frankly. It only takes like six weeks if you marshal the production plan and put the emphasis on the leadership, six weeks you'd have a different rapid testing landscape in this country.

So, the question becomes, you can open schools, but do you believe we will be able to keep them open as we come into the fall, where everybody is sick, like every 11 days, and then you'll have the flu?

PHILLIPS: I think that we can open the schools if we actually do what you are talking about, and really rethink our strategy. We need to make sure that everybody who is able to can wear a mask, not full stop. No exceptions, everybody that can wear a mask.

We need to make sure we have rigid social distancing protocols and we need to make sure that we can actually ramp up testing to the point which probably means we are going to go with these antigen tests that are slightly less sensitive, they don't catch everybody, but if you can do a $5.00 tests on everybody every day, that's way better even if it only catches 8 in 10 people than having one test done every month, and then wait a week for it to get back.

So we really have to be creative and rethink exactly the whole infrastructure of what we are doing.

[02:45:06]

CUOMO: You know, when you look at us heading into this fall, what is your biggest concern?

PHILLIPS: My biggest concern is flu-VID, right, if we put flu and COVID together, and we have both circulating at the same time, we not only overwhelm the healthcare system, which is something that people are talking about, but also for individuals, that risk of trying to fight two viruses in the human body is a real concern.

And so, right now, we are trying to get everybody to get their flu shots, make sure you get your shot, get it early, and don't let us discover what two viruses attacking our society and individuals together at the same time would create.

CUOMO: You could get the two viruses at once?

PHILLIPS: You could, yes. It's absolutely possible to get co- infection and we don't like that.

CUOMO: And then you're going to have people like me, where I may have -- I do have the antibodies for COVID, but my immune system is definitely beat down, and I'm sure I am going to be susceptible in different ways to getting sick in the way that I haven't been in the past. We don't know anything about that yet.

PHILLIPS: No, we are still learning a lot about the downstream ramifications of having COVID, and actually, there are some studies now that show that up to half of people even 60 days, and I'm not sure how you are feeling these days, Chris, but half of people after 60 days still have fatigue and shortness of breath and cough.

We know that this is a germ that can cause long term consequences, and we don't know what those all are yet.

CUOMO: At least one every three days, once I get back to the regular show in a couple of weeks, I am going to do long haul symptoms. I feel like I've been a little negligent on the issue, to be honest, because I've been getting so much anecdotal experience and building up so many contacts in the clinical community, as they are learning more.

A lot of people are having things manifest in their bodies that may have been dormant, may have been trying to get a foothold, and COVID made them available. We have to talk about it. It is going to be the story of the next six months.

So, Dr. Amy Compton Phillips, you will always be involved, because you are one of the helpful people. God bless and stay healthy.

PHILLIPS: Thank you so much, Chris.

CUOMO: Thank you, doc. We'll be right back.

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[02:50:55]

CUOMO: The new normal. I wonder what they're saying to each other. No need, you just have to monitor your Twitter feed. The last Democratic President tweeting congratulations to his friend, his former VP, hoping he will be the next P.

Barack Obama expressed how proud he is of Joe Biden, of course Obama is going to address the country tomorrow night, Don, and he supposedly is going to make a case that democracy is on the line.

Now, that is the scare factor in this election that the Democrats are definitely pushing. We are trying to develop the facts of what exactly DeJoy was doing versus what was being done, what is the President's influence, is there any?

That's all something for us to look at, but it's an interesting take. This President could give any message he wants, he is going to talk about democracy. Thoughts?

LEMON: I will imagine it is going to be similar to the eulogy he gave at John Lewis's funeral, where he talked about these very same issues.

I would think it's going to be a lot less somber than that, but obviously, he's going to go there. And what's going to be interesting to me is that he has had all of these criticisms of the current President without actually saying his name.

Can he do that in a speech tonight really, you know, or tomorrow night? But can he do it in the speech on Wednesday night? He could, but I don't think he will. I think you will actually mention the President's name.

CUOMO: Yes, the whole Voldemort thing never works for me. Say the guy's name.

LEMON: Just say it.

CUOMO: Just know who you're talking about. I thought it was a bolder move to use Trump by any other reference as an example of what John Lewis fought against his entire life. I mean, now that is a former President saying this guy is a bigot and that he is a function of racist tendencies that John Lewis took on.

Because that's the only thing that John Lewis did take on. Until he came into Congress.

LEMON: Yes, but listen, it's a fine line -- how do I say this without -- because you know, I say things and people get mad at me, and it's never my intention to tick anybody off, but it is really a fine line and considering how the former First Lady speaks about this President, you know, we talk about depression, she said she has low grade depression, right, eating her feelings, I think that you know -- I don't know if she said it directly, but people say, I've been

certainly eating my feelings, I am 15 or 20 pounds heavier than when this guy came down that escalator because of the craziness in this country.

But for her to write in a book and talk about how he threatened her family, how she was concerned about her family, how she is concerned about the well-being of this country, the future of this country when it comes to her children and other people's children, how she has low grade depression about this.

I think that you've got to say the guy's name. You've got to call him out because the same way that you call him out, Chris, because he affects your family.

CUOMO: Yes, on purpose. People say don't like the President, not fair, not true. I do the job. He makes it too easy to have to criticize, and he makes it too hard to avoid because that's what he says and that's what he does.

What I don't like, personally, and he is well aware of this, is that I don't like him weaponizing my family. My kids get a hard time from his people, and he knows it, and he could stop it, and he doesn't.

I think that's wrong, and the idea that you would do it if I were nicer about you, it will never happen. I will never say something or do something under pressure because of somebody else's inability to do the right thing. That's not my point.

My point is, what do we need in this country? Why are people eating their feelings? Why are we so upset? There is too much us and them. There are too many who, as a function of their political beliefs, have tuned themselves into wanting bad things for other people.

That is not just inhumane, it's dangerous in a place where all we have keeping us together is common concern. People talk about our relationship, why do we love each other? Because we choose to, that's why.

[02:55:10]

CUOMO: Because I love what you are about, I love who you are.

And once we stop feeling that that's the exigency, the exigency is I need bad things for Don. I need you to lose for me to win. That's where we are in this country right now.

We need a reason to believe in something better.

LEMON: Well, Mr. Attorney, talking about exigent circumstances, number one, I didn't finish my thought regarding the former President Barack Obama. What I meant about the fine line, because there's a gentlemen's agreement among Presidents that you don't --

CUOMO: That you don't go at the sitting person.

LEMON: They don't really go at the sitting person, but these are extraordinary -- speaking of exigent, these are extraordinary times.

CUOMO: Yes, and it's not about them and their little handshakes.

LEMON: It's not about that and this is not about Democrat versus Republican. This is really not about ideology. This is about reality. This is about the truth, and if you have someone who is constantly lying to people, constantly pitting people against each other, constantly --

CUOMO: He just said Kamala Harris isn't eligible.

LEMON: And putting people in danger and saying racist and bigoted things, and leading the American people astray, his -- he lies to his own people daily. The people who support him.

So, I think that you have an obligation to call this President out because what he is doing is not good for this country. He is not elevating.

CUOMO: Say good night everybody for us.

LEMON: Good night to everybody for us.

CUOMO: Good enough. Stay tuned. The news continues here on CNN.

LEMON: See you tomorrow.

CUOMO: I love you, Lemon.

LEMON: I love you. See you in two minutes, maybe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. I'm Rosemary Church, live at CNN Center. Thanks for joining us.

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