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CNN Live Event/Special
Republican National Party Kicks Off Its Final Night; NHK: Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to Resign; Trump Tries to Defend Coronavirus Response in Front of Crowd Not Wearing Masks; Trump Says Nothing About Jacob Blake and Rails Against "Mob Rule." Aired 2-3a ET
Aired August 28, 2020 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the final night of the Republican National Convention, Chris Cuomo, of course, Don Lemon. We witnessed President Trump accepting the nomination of his party to run for reelection as president.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Do you hear that music in your sleep?
CUOMO: Nope.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: All I hear is the little, gentle hum of Valium.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Listen. Also, the president is making an acceptance speech on the south lawn of the White House before a large, non-socially distanced crowd. But, a lot of what he said in this speech was simply just false or misleading.
And, Chris, you know, just before we move on and talk about this, I think it's -- I want to say this, because there was not a lot of social distancing at the white house, right? And remember, I told you about -- that COVID is real. That affected me last night. Before -- that's the White House lawn.
Before I came on the air last night, I got a text from my friend who said that my friend from high school had died. Her name is Vida Ferdinand (ph). I just want to put up her picture. I want people to know that this thing is still real. Her underlying condition -- she had asthma. She has a son, Ish (ph), who her eyes weren't big enough to see him.
And my friend Arthur Jack (ph), who (INAUDIBLE), is her cousin. That's Vida (ph). Arthur (ph) and I were the same age. Vida (ph) was two years older than us, 55 years old. Her mom went to school with my mom. They live right down the street from each other. They can't see each other because of social distancing.
So, I just want to put not only a shout-out to the family to say that I'm thinking about them, my family is thinking about you, but also so that the country knows that there is still the threat of this deadly virus and pandemic happening in the country, even though you may not have seen that in the pictures coming out of this White House this evening.
CUOMO: On his watch. In a speech in which he says, don't trust Joe Biden, he wouldn't follow the science the way I do. The science tells us, first, the only things we have to truly fight this spread --
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: -- are social distancing, masks, and washing your hands like you just took them off the street.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: And they did none of those things. He literally gave that speech to an audience that was the complete rejection of his own message.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: And again, this election is coming down for Trump voters --
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: -- to a -- but the other guy is worse.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: I know they're not doing what they're supposed to do with the masks. I know he lies all the time. But the other guy would be worse. And that is what the Biden-Harris ticket has to rebut if they want to win this election.
LEMON: Mm-hmm. There was a lot to talk about, obviously, what liberals will do if that -- if liberals are in charge of the government. Listen. I think you're right. People don't understand that sometimes we debate.
[02:04:58]
LEMON: And two things can be -- you can be right about your messaging, and I can be right about the reality of -- it's a hypothetical. Both things can exist at the same time, right?
CUOMO: And you are actually more right in the main contextually because this is all happening on this guy's watch.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: Trump is pretending he's watching this, like it was in 2015, 2016. And he's watching the other side screw it up. And he'll make it better. That was his promise when he won. What about now?
LEMON: Well, you noticed, I played that from the convention, right --
CUOMO: Sure.
LEMON: -- in 2016, and it was crickets.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: And Rudy Giuliani, he gave the same speech tonight that he gave on the convention of night one in 2016 about law and order. In fact, we have how he swapped context to talk about COVID to make the same case tonight. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: The whole, unprecedented wave of lawlessness began with a truly just cause, the unforgivable police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Peaceful protests began all over the land.
The condemnation of the killing was universal, from President Trump to Democrat leaders. It seemed, for a few brief signing moments, Democrats and Republican leaders would come together with a unified proposal to reduce police misconduct.
This possibility was very dangerous to the left. They had a president to beat and a country to destroy. And although in agreement on action against police brutality would be very valuable for the country, it would also make President Trump appear to be an effective leader. They could have none of that.
So, Black Lives Matter and Antifa are springing into action. And in a flash, they hijack the peaceful protests into vicious, brutal, riots. Soon, protests turned into riots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Whew. Scary.
CUOMO: Look, Rudy doesn't have what it takes to come on the show and make his case anymore. He has to keep preaching to the converted and that is OK. He has got glasses on now but he still can't see the reality right in front of his face. That's a shame. But it's still a potent message because fear sells.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: Just like he sold it four years ago. The only difference is now his record is on his watch.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: This president put forth no real plan to stop this. He hasn't even spoken to the problem. And if you want to look at why, one of the ugliest symptoms of the illness that we are battling as a society is becoming more prevalent. What is that symptom? Riots.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: Irrational violence, sometimes opportunistic, sometimes agenda- driven, right, in the form of radicals and fascists and anarchists. But also by people who have the right idea in their heart but then wind up going way beyond what their mind is telling them to do or should be telling them, they do wrong things, they lose your leverage.
Why? It is a symptom. This president hasn't spoken about the illness at all, saying the George Floyd's killing was a tragedy, is not enough. And he knows it. But he can't go any farther because exactly of what Rudy Giuliani is really arguing. He can't upset his party.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: He can't upset his base. He can't say anything about police. He can't talk about systems that may really disrupt people's thoughts about what America is about, this perfection, this standard that somehow is in place that we can get back to. The only future for this country lies in front of us.
LEMON: If you ever ask people, you know, when was America great? And they answer and you say, well, it was 1950s. Well, what about Jim Crow? Well, OK, yeah, that's obviously 19 -- what about women not being able to vote, like, when was it? America is great. Yes, America is great. America has these problems, but when you ask people the time it was great, there were issues when they answer.
Whenever you answer about when was America greatest, when do you think it was -- because he says, the question is, the slogan is, make America great again.
CUOMO: Mm-hmm.
LEMON: OK, so, when is the great part?
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: And if you look back, there is always something that you can find about America.
CUOMO: It is such an absurd notion --
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: -- that the daily show does it.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: Because it is the stuff of comedy because it is so absurd. The only real answer that should be acceptable is that our greatest days have to lie in front of us.
LEMON: Right. CUOMO: The only time MAGA has been close to true, as an acceptable, prominent (ph) notion is now, because we have screwed it up so bad --
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: -- in this administration.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: In his watch, the economy he says he built, they literally don't want to include the present numbers. Oh yeah, you can include the pandemic. That's not fair. Oh, really? It's because that's not real life.
LEMON: Well, it happened on his -- I was talking to Mike Shields. Listen, Mike is a good sport because he comes on and he takes it.
[02:09:58]
LEMON: But if you're going to say that the riots that happened under Barack Obama happened on his watch, I'm not saying that it was his fault. Same thing, you're not saying that the riots are Donald Trumps' fault, that the riots are President Obama's fault. But certainly, if they happened on your watch, they happened on your watch. You have to own it, right?
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: And if you don't speak to the problem that is causing people to be in the streets --
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: -- you do start to own what happens in the streets.
LEMON: But the other thing was the -- the former president did speak to the problems.
CUOMO: Of course, he did.
LEMON: And the right criticized him for speaking to those problems. But there are couple other things tonight that really -- this thing really, really got me, the way they used the White House tonight. I was -- as an American, I was insulted. The White House should not be used as a political tool, an election tool. It is the people's house.
The way it was used tonight -- I know they're going to say, well, there's a pandemic. Well, you can find somewhere to go. You can figure out how to social distance. You can do things the way the other convention did it, through Zoom or whatever, taped interviews as you had with a lot of people there or people coming to speak at a podium or a lectern individually.
There are big signs in front of the White House. Do we have some of these pictures in front of the White House with political signs? You have people there in the Rose Garden and all of these flags.
CUOMO: Yeah.
LEMON: And then you have people there in the Rose Garden, not socially distanced, and monitors with Trump-Pence. It was -- I think it is -- obviously, it is unprecedented. I think it is an ethical. It's possibly illegal.
CUOMO: Well, I am sure none of this was paid for by tax dollars.
LEMON: No --
CUOMO: I am sure that there are some Republicans that are upset because --
LEMON: I don't think it was paid for by tax dollars. I think it was the RNC in it.
CUOMO: I would love --
LEMON: I'm not sure.
CUOMO: I would to see all the receipts. At a minimum, there is a lot of White House staff that I guarantee didn't get the night off, right?
LEMON: All right.
CUOMO: But look, that is only something --
LEMON: Peace, brother.
CUOMO: That is only something you would say if you want to make political points. And I am sure the Republicans, who wanted Al Gore chased out of public office for making fundraising calls in a government building, I'm sure they are equally upset by this. But at the end of the day --
LEMON: Wait, hold on. Hold on, Chris. Isn't there a Trump hotel right down the street?
CUOMO: Yes. Yes, there is. You know, that's where all the lobbyists and the foreign business interests are.
LEMON: Why can't they use that hotel? It's his hotel.
CUOMO: Look, you want me to tell you why? I'll tell you why.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Because using the White House is an amazingly powerful instrument, which is why we don't usually allow the presidents to use it in the election.
LEMON: The imagery is beautiful.
CUOMO: But -- Joe Biden looks like nothing in front of his mantle at home, nothing. He is a regular guy. He is a schmuck. Look at the pageantry, look at the flags, look at the grandeur, look at the power, and look at the presence. That is what Trump sees. He doesn't see right or wrong, law, illegal. It is about advantage. It is about winning. That is why he did it, and his party wants to win, too.
And that is why they are comfortable forgiving the character flaws, the lies, and the lack of conservative fiscal dogma and direction because they want to win. And they will tell themselves, in full good conscience, and tell you in front of the American people and our cameras. But Don, if it were Biden, it would be worse. That is my choice. I'm telling you, that's not easy to beat --
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN HOST AND CORRESPONDENT: Breaking news, out of Tokyo this hour, Japanese public broadcaster NHK reports Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is preparing to resign, citing health reasons. The long serving leader is expected to hold a news conference in about two hours' time.
He has fought ulcerative colitis which is an inflammatory bowel disease for years now and two recent hospital visits prompted speculation about his future. Mr. Abe's term is set to expire in September of next year.
Let's go straight to Tokyo. Kaori Enjoji joins me now with more on all of this. What can you tell us? Why would he resign?
KAORI ENJOJI, CNBC TOKYO BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Robyn, public broadcaster NHK is reporting that Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan has decided that he is going to step down. This comes amid speculation for two weeks now, that the prime minister maybe resigning. This speculation was fueled by two back-to-back hospital visits over the last two weeks.
But in many ways, if this is confirmed, it is a worst-case scenario in many ways for the ruling Liberal Democratic Party because there is no succession plan in place.
[02:15:02]
ENJOJI: However, I talked to a number of analysts as this speculation was swirling. One of them, Koichi Nakano, who is a political analyst here and a political professor here, told me that in many ways, this might be the most honorable way for him to go.
Just backtrack for a minute to tell you what Shinzo Abe is -- who Shinzo Abe is. He is 65. We have known him for many, many years now that he suffers from colitis. He has suffered from this condition since he was a teenager.
Now, this flashback was poignant over the last two weeks because the first time around when he was prime minister, he abruptly resigned after just one year in office, citing health reasons. So when we saw him go back to the hospital twice in the month of August, it was a flashback to that and people were worried that he would do that again abruptly. Now, we will get a confirmation from him when he is -- will meet the public in a televised address and that is happening in two hours' time. Bear in mind that the prime minister has not been in the public eye, from his prime minister's office, since June 18th. That in itself over the last two and a half month has sparked some speculation about whether his health is adequate enough to lead.
You also have to remember that the popularity and the public support surrounding Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and his administration have been falling in recent months. Some of the reasons for that, one, of course, is the pandemic.
Japan has avoided the kind of deaths that we see in other countries, like the United States, but we are in the middle of a second wave. The second wave has been happening since mid-July but the prime minister had been broadly absent during that time. There is also been a lot of criticism about the handling ever since the start of this pandemic with the Diamond Princess, a cruise ship, earlier on this year.
On top of that, there is the economic fallout. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is the longest serving prime minister that Japan has ever seen. I mean, he has served a consecutive 2,799 days. This is one for the history books already. So, one of the hallmarks of his term has been the so-called "Abenomics" agenda. This is an economic agenda.
Until the pandemic came along, things were going relatively smoothly. But, there have been some blunders, an increase in the sales tax, for example, and as a result, now Hapan is mired in deflation and also in this recession.
This "Abenomics" agenda that was supposed to pull Japan out of deflation and signal the rebirth that Shinzo Abe had envisioned for himself and the country is under question right now. So this is the backdrop that we are seeing right now.
I am also hearing that he has met with senior leaders of his own political party. Now, bear in mind that Shinzo Abe's party, the LDP, is a formidable force in parliament. So just because the prime minister is resigning, it doesn't mean that there is any jeopardy to his political party itself.
However, there is likely to be -- there has to be a general election here in Japan in a year's time. That means that this could be a very messy process because there is no clear succession plan in place.
I think this is one of the key worries for the country and also for the average Japanese citizen, because bear in mind, we are in the midst of a pandemic and the economic fallout is a state of emergency, as we are seeing in many countries around the world.
You know, he is 65 years old. He comes from a political dynasty. He has prime ministers in his family. In a way, there were some signs that he might live through this, that he might battle through this, particularly early on this week, because his allies have said, look, the prime minister has worked straight through this pandemic and he is just tired, he needs some time. But all throughout this time, there are questions as to whether or not he would hold on.
So Robyn, I think, right now, we are waiting to hear from the prime minister himself to see how he explains this decision, which to the public here in Japan is appearing as a very sudden one. Robyn?
CURNOW: It certainly would. Obviously, the impact on the markets is very clear, as well. Talk us through the numbers that we are seeing now.
ENJOJI: Absolutely. When news broke across the public broadcaster, NHK, and other local media that the prime minister has decided to resign, there was a knee jerk reaction in the equity markets here.
The Nikkei 225, which is the benchmark index, initially plunged 600 points. I think that goes to show the extent of the abruptness, if you will, in terms of the eyes of the investor although people have been speculating that this might happen. It has recovered a little bit since then but it is down 300 points still, so I think this is a very nervous time for the equity markets.
As I say, the market is closing now as 3:00 o'clock just closed 20 minutes ago. So, right now, I think people are waiting to hear from the prime minister himself to see how he explains his resignation and how he has mapped any kind of succession place -- succession plan, excuse me, for Japan in the months ahead.
[02:20:00]
CURNOW: We just have a very brief time before we leave you. Just give us quickly a sense of his legacy, particularly globally, in terms of allies that he has made and Japan has made.
ENJOJI: Well, I think the relationship, if you will, that he has created with U.S. President Donald Trump is a very well known throughout Japan and internationally, as well. He was one of the first global leaders to form this kind of kind of bond with him. To his credit, many political analysts say that is partly the reason why Japan has been able to avoid a trade war, if you will, compared to other countries like China.
I mean, you look at leaders like Angela Merkel, as well. This is a time when you're seeing potential leadership change in that arena, as well. But I think it is poignant that someone like Shinzo Abe, who is from a political dynasty and led this country for eight years, would be forced, potentially, to resign during the height of the pandemic. Robyn?
CURNOW: OK. Thank you very much. We will talk to you in the coming hours, as well. Kaori Enjoji is there live in Tokyo just on this information. I am going to hand you back to Don and Chris.
LEMON: So, the president is giving a huge acceptance speech tonight before a huge crowd on the south lawn of the White House. More than 1,500 people, no social distancing, and almost no one wore a mask.
Senior White house official is brushing off concerns about the lack of social distancing, telling CNN this, everybody is going to catch this thing eventually.
Let's talk about it now with CNN medical analyst Dr. Larry Brilliant, who is an epidemiologist. Thank you very much. Sir, I appreciate you joining us. The president said this. Check this out. This is about the pandemic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
We are delivering lifesaving therapies, and we will produce a vaccine before the end of the year or maybe even sooner.
(APPLAUSE)
TRUMP: We will defeat the virus and the pandemic, and emerge stronger than ever before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, doctor, a vaccine by the end of the year?
LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Hello, Don. Thank you for having me. You know, I don't think there is any doubt that we will produce a vaccine. I think we will produce four or five different vaccines that we've ordered 100 million doses of each. I don't have a doubt that there won't be a photo-op with boxes filled with vaccine probably before the election.
The problem is we don't know if that vaccine will be any good. We don't know if it will be effective. We don't know if it will work in elderly people. We don't know if it will work in younger people. We won't know if it is safe. We absolutely won't know if it's safe until we have tested enough people that rare side effects that occur one out of 10,000, 20, 000, 50,000 or 100,000 happen.
So it would be reckless to cut corners with this virus and tempted by trying to get a vaccine that we don't know all about.
LEMON: Let's talk about what I said in the introduction to you, what we saw tonight, 1,500 plus guests, no social distancing, few people wearing masks. We now have 180,000 dead Americans and they still aren't taking this seriously. I mean, the optics were just unbelievable.
BRILLIANT: Don, I think you said that a senior White House official brushed it off and said we're all going to get it anyways.
LEMON: Yeah.
BRILLIANT: You know, if you wait until we all get it, you are talking about millions of Americans dying in route. That is the hardest thing to grapple with, that anybody could actually say that.
Having 1,500 people, who from what I've heard, most of them did not have a screening test before they went, let alone two tests one day apart, which is the protocol that we would recommend, and not wearing masks, it is a formula for spreading the disease and turning the White House into a super spreader event. I hope to god that doesn't happen.
LEMON: Yeah. Listen, that leads me to my next question. I got to say, you know, you saw on social media and many of the commentators were all flummoxed that, oh my god, there's no social distancing, what do you expect? It's what this administration has done all along.
I wasn't surprised. There was the Tulsa rally, his speech in Phoenix, his 4th of July celebration in Mount Rushmore, all of these big events in the middle of a pandemic as if there is no pandemic.
BRILLIANT: Where do you think the cases came to Florida and the Midwest? All of these cases and these outbreaks, they come from events like this. This is a virus's greatest dream and it's our nightmare.
LEMON: Dr. Brilliant, always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.
[02:25:00]
BRILLIANT: Thank you, Don. Thank you for having me.
LEMON: We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: The president had nothing to say tonight about the police shooting of Jacob Blake or the deaths of two protesters in Kenosha, certainly nothing about the white militia that seemed to be given comfort by the local police, the gunman, who was apparently a Trump supporter, now being charged with multiple felonies, including a homicide. Instead, he killed -- called for giving police more power and railed against what he called mob rule. Does this win for the president?
CNN political commentators Mike Shields and Angela Rye join me and D. Lemon. Angela Rye, do you believe that what's happening in Kenosha can win Wisconsin and maybe the election for the president?
ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. What I believe will happen is that the truth will set us free. I think that we are at a time where we can't continue to allow dangerous and toxic rhetoric to not only define this election but to define this country.
We have to tell the truth about what's happening. We have to be bold enough in what we're talking about even on this air, as bold as the sports players who are sitting down and taking a moment to make demands of their owners, taking a moment to make demands of citizens to not only go vote but to be responsible with the words they say, with the weapons they carry, and with their words, with the way they treat their neighbors.
[02:29:58]
RYE: So I think what we really need to be doing right now is taking a moment to reset, to tell the truth, to be honest about what it means to do the right thing, so that everyone wins in the country. Forget about the election for a moment. And talk about how we can
ensure that everyone survives. Whether you subjectively fear them are not.
CUOMO: I'm waiting on you.
LEMON: On me?
CUOMO: Oh, yes.
LEMON: I'm just sitting here --
CUOMO: That's how co-anchoring works.
LEMON: I'm just sitting here listening. I think you guys were having a fascinating conversation, I didn't want to get --
CUOMO: Well then, allow me to continue.
LEMON: Yes, go on.
CUOMO: OK.
LEMON: I'll jump in when I'm ready.
CUOMO: All right. So, Mike, my question is this that we were are getting to it a bit earlier.
This is happening on the president's watch. Your counter is well, Ferguson happen on Obama's watch. Yes.
And then they each have culpability. And what becomes the linking thought? You better talk about it, you better cure it, you better help it.
It seems here Trump's strategy is to weaponize it.
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think it's been weaponized on both sides.
The Democratic Convention was an entire four-day episode of wokeness. And comments like this is what we want the tone of America to be.
And so they are trying to motivate their base -- speaking as a political operative, they're trying to take the social injustice movement this summer and turn it into a motivation to turn out base voters in the Democrat Party that may not normally take part.
And one of the reasons they have to do that is -- you talked about cognitive dissonance earlier.
Democrats just cannot stand Donald Trump and will go and vote for someone who was against bussing, who was for mandatory minimums --
LEMON: There were a lot of black people who were against bussing as well. SHIELDS: -- who was way responsible for locking up young black men in
jail.
LEMON: There were a lot of black people who were against bussing at the time as well. This is not -- it wasn't 2020 when bussing was happening.
SHIELDS: Mandatory minimums. Someone who says racially insensitive things all the time who says you're not even black if you would vote for a Republican.
They're going to put all of that aside because they cannot stand --
LEMON: This president says a lot of racially insensitive things so if it's --
RYE: He's said some stuff to --
LEMON: -- good for the goose, it's good for the gander.
RYE: He said some stuff tonight.
SHIELDS: Well --
RYE: You know what, Mike, this is the problem. Right?
When we started this conversation, you would think that, for a moment, after a vigilante armed on the streets, 17-years old, a Trump supporter, recently at a Trump rally, and killed two people.
You would think that the tone of this conversation could at least acknowledge death. Could at least acknowledge that this black man was shot seven times in his back while his shirt was held in front of his children.
And now, this man is locked down to his bed, after he has certainly paid the sentence for whatever alleged crime they suggest.
But instead we are here. Talking about Joe Biden and whatever he might have done, years ago, instead of what Donald Trump said out of his mouth tonight. Out of both sides of his mouth, he talked tonight.
Talking about criminal justice reform and then talking about how he's going to assure more prosecutors and more police, in communities where there's rampant violence. Meanwhile, he is the one who is ensuring that vigilante violence is on the streets.
We have to be responsible with our rhetoric. And it starts at the top.
LEMON: Go ahead, Mike.
SHIELDS: Well, the question I was asked was about this politically. We're talking about a convention, we're talking about an election.
We're talking about how voters respond to what they're seeing when they see mayors and governors who do not send the police in to stop riots, to stop violence happening.
Violence of all sides. There was a curfew that should have been enforced.
RYE: To all sides. All sides.
SHIELDS: That person, last night, or two nights ago, who killed those people, there was a curfew. The police should never have allowed that to happen. And so that is -- of course, that's deplorable.
LEMON: The police were working with them, Mike.
LEMON: In the video you saw the evidence --
SHIELDS: And that's a terrible thing that (inaudible).
LEMON: -- the police working with them, coordinating with them. Giving them water.
SHIELDS: Yes. That's something I don't understand. And I said that last night on the air as well.
CUOMO: So why did the president condemn it?
SHIELDS: I don't understand that.
CUOMO: You know, Mike, what do you when you're in my situation?
You and I are in a situation that Don and Angela aren't in the same way. And I was thinking about this today, about whether or not to bring it up. But what the hell, it's 2:30 in the morning.
What do you do -- because I'm sure you have black people in your life, I have black people in my life -- when something like Kenosha happens and a black friend says to me, "What do you think would have happened if it was one of mine?"
This is one of the things that started to bother me a lot. That my friends are starting to talk about color again in a way it's never been introduced in my life.
If it were "one of mine," a black friend says to me, "walking down the street like that, towards the cops with a long gun. What do you think would have happened?"
LEMON: You know what would've happened.
CUOMO: But I'm saying how do you --
SHIELDS: Chris --
CUOMO: -- when somebody says that to you? As a white guy?
SHIELDS: I agree with you. I really -- I went through a change in my views.
[02:35:00]
I did a campaign one time, I lived in Alabama. And I saw things that I'd never seen before that made it real for me. Things that I didn't know existed.
Racism on a level that I, frankly, was ignorant to. And I think that a lot of people haven't seen it before and they're ignorant to it. And sometimes you really have to see it to learn it.
And it really changed my view on all of these things.
I believe that our criminal justice system is not just towards African Americans. I believe that police need more training, and these things happen too often. I believe that.
I think it is possible to believe that -- to believe in black lives matter, lower case, and not have to believe in Black Lives Matter, upper case --
CUOMO: What's the difference?
SHIELDS: -- which is a political movement that I disagree with that's Marxist.
RYE: Hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on.
SHIELDS: And I also believe that you can talk about --
LEMON: What does that mean?
RYE: Hold on, hold on.
LEMON: Angela, hold on.
RYE: Hold on. Hold on.
LEMON: What does that mean?
SHIELDS: Well, look at what's on their website.
LEMON: What does that mean?
RYE: It doesn't --
SHIELDS: It means that on their website -- well, let me -- I'll tell you. On their website, the Black Lives Matter organization says that they are essentially socialist, we should defund the police.
RYE: It does not say that. It does not say that.
SHIELDS: And I can believe that black lives matter -- a black life matters --
RYE: Mike --
SHIELDS: -- without having that political agenda. RYE: Mike, listen to me. Mike, listen to me. You were in Alabama
and you saw racism that you never saw before.
I guarantee you it's racism that Don and I and our family members have experienced and seen before. In fact --
SHIELDS: Absolutely.
RYE: In fact, we saw it at the beginning of the segment when you started talking about the wokeness at a convention. Wokeness is consciousness, my friend.
It is about the understanding of freedom that would release us from oppression. The very type of oppression that protesters are on the streets trying to ensure they're heard about.
So when you talk about a wokeness convention, that is an implicit form of bias and it's racist.
So I'm telling you that you should be careful with your rhetoric. You lying on Black Lives Matter, Mike, is a form of racism.
SHIELDS: Visit their website. Don't take my word for it.
RYE: It is bigotry.
SHIELDS: Go to their website.
RYE: It is a blind spot that is preventing you from telling the truth.
LEMON: OK.
RYE: It's problematic.
LEMON: OK. So Black Lives Matter -- as has been said over and over, Mike, for people, especially those who don't want to make some sort of political point. It basically means black lives matter too. That's it.
Why can't -- what is so hard to accept about that premise?
SHIELDS: But I just said that. I said I can believe that, lower case, without the upper case being the organization.
RYE: No, I'm not going to be (inaudible).
SHIELDS: (Inaudible). Well, I'm just making a point.
RYE: But your point is --
LEMON: What's your point --
SHIELDS: I'm being very careful --
RYE: Your point is flawed. SHIELDS: I'm trying to be careful.
LEMON: Hold on. But what's your point -- why do you have to make the distinction between black lives matter and a so-called organization?
RYE: It's an inferiority point.
SHIELDS: Because -- well, because I think that you can believe that there is racial injustice and we need to do something about it. Without having to be a socialist, or agree with their political agenda to achieve the goal.
RYE: Jesus Christ.
SHIELDS: We just watched the most --
LEMON: What is -- I don't understand --
SHIELDS: -- the most diverse --
RYE: It is (inaudible).
LEMON: I don't understand what socialism has to do with Black Lives Matter.
SHIELDS: We just watched the most diverse --
RYE: Where is the facts matter banner --
SHIELDS: (Inaudible) Republican history --
RYE: -- the "Facts First" banner from CNN right now?
SHIELDS: with black Republicans.
RYE: Mike, you're lying. You're just lying, they're not socialist. These people who founded the organization are friends of mine.
Pardon my tone, but my God, you are lying on an organization. Your rhetoric is the reason why these people have to have security. Stop, just stop.
You're lying on the organization.
SHIELDS: Angela --
LEMON: OK.
RYE: It's not socialist to say --
LEMON: OK.
RYE: --that black people should be able to live --
SHIELDS: You're --
RYE: -- and thrive in this country.
SHIELDS: I find it ironic --
RYE: It's not socialist to say that black people should be paid the same as white people. It is not socialist to say that we want to be woke --
SHIELDS: This is where we are, guys.
RYE: -- and encourage you to be woke.
SHIELDS: You asked me to come on and share --
RYE: It is not socialist to say --
SHIELDS: And this is what -- this is how a lot of conservatives feel.
LEMON: OK.
RYE: -- that you should be an ally and stop lying on this organization. Stop.
SHIELDS: This is how a lot of conservatives feel. The entire eight years that I opposed Barack Obama --
RYE: You're wrong.
SHIELDS: -- I was called a racist just for opposing Barack Obama. I'm trying to have a conversation with you, represent my views and the views of a lot of conservatives.
I get shouted down, I get called a racist, And I'm basically told that my opinion doesn't matter.
RYE: No, Mike. What you're being told --
SHIELDS: So we had a moment this summer --
RYE: -- is you're a liar right now.
SHIELDS: -- after George Floyd was killed -- let me finish. Angela, please, let me finish.
RYE: Can you say something honest?
SHIELDS: We had a moment this summer after George Floyd was killed --
LEMON: Let him finish, Angela.
SHIELDS: We had a moment this summer when George Floyd was killed and I saw something I had never seen.
Republicans on social media, friends of mine, so many people saying I finally get it. I see what's going on, I understand this. And were they -- the problem that I saw after that was they were not opened --
CUOMO: Right.
SHIELDS: The door was not opened to them. People like Angela do not want us to come and have this conversation with them. They want to shout us down, they don't want to hear our perspective.
LEMON: Mike, let me ask you this --
RYE: Mike, you're just lying on an organization.
SHIELDS: And that is extremely frustrating when you're trying to have a conversation.
LEMON: OK. Mike, let me jump in here. Let me ask you this. Because you said that you -- it took George Floyd. OK, fine, people. That is what it is.
But for people like -- and back to what Chris was talking about. For people like me and for people like Angela, we wonder why did it
take you so long? Especially if you had been in an Alabama or a Louisiana or a Kenosha --
SHIELDS: I understand that.
LEMON: -- or New York City or a Los Angeles or anywhere in this country?
[02:40:00]
How could be an American and not see what is happening with another fellow American who happens to be black or brown?
How -- and if someone calls you on it and says that it is -- that you have a racial bias, an unconscious bias, and perhaps, racism, how can you defend that and say that it's not?
Because you either have ignored it or you had the privilege of not thinking about it?
SHIELDS: I think it's a great question, Don.
LEMON: And it could falls under any of those umbrellas. Racism is not about knowing it outright --
RYE: Yes.
LEMON: -- it's also about not knowing it. it's called ignorance. So how would you take it --
RYE: Banaji (ph) also called them blind spots. It could be a blind spot.
LEMON: It could be a blind spot, it could be ignorance.
RYE: Yes.
LEMON: It could be unconscious bias. CUOMO: All right. So let him say what it is.
LEMON: But I'm not --
SHIELDS: (Inaudible).
LEMON: -- finished. I'm not finished with what I'm saying and I will let him say what it is. All right?
CUOMO: All right. All right.
LEMON: Stand by. So how can you say that and take offense to someone calling you on it instead of explaining it or trying to understand what the other person is saying? And admitting, well, maybe there is.
And if you do admit, well, maybe there is, we might come to some sort of consensus about it.
RYE: That's fair.
SHIELDS: That's actually my point, Don. Which is if someone has been ignorant -- and I'm not saying that George Floyd -- I already saw this before George Floyd.
What I'm saying is that for someone else, someone who has not seen it before and there's a moment in the country where something happens that has woken people up and they've started to understand this, do you want to have a conversation and say oh, you finally get it, thank God.
Or do you say you know what, you finally get it but I'm still angry, you should have gotten it already. So I still don't want to talk to you. What signal does that send to people --
LEMON: No, it's both.
SHIELDS: -- who want to have a conversation about race?
LEMON: No. It's both. I can still be angry with you and still want to talk to. It's not that I can -- I'm going to not be angry anymore.
You can be angry but -- I agree with you, you should still agree the conversation. But you can't --
SHIELDS: If you want the solve the problem --
LEMON: But you --
SHIELDS: -- we need to be able to open up and have these conversations.
LEMON: -- cannot give people parameters and ultimatums.
RYE: But Don and Mike --
LEMON: You have to be open to whatever the person's reaction is. RYE: But also --
SHIELDS: I'm asking Angela to be open to my reaction. That's what I'm asking.
RYE: But Mike, I think that --
SHIELDS: I want to hear your perspective.
RYE: But Mike, I think -- I think --
LEMON: Yes. We got to go though.
RYE: -- there's a difference between being open --
CUOMO: No, why go?
LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: No. Why go? Because I got to tell you something.
I think this is the issue that very well wins this election for the president, Angela.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I know I've talked to you about this, I've talked to Don about this. I think it's very hard to convince people that they have implicit bias or blind spots or anything.
Politics does not work well when there's any element of anything that can be construed as blame. And it's a problem in politics, it always has been. That's why politicians are always telling people it's not their fault, whatever's going on.
And selling fear works. And I'm telling you, what's happening in Wisconsin right now, works better for the president than it does for Joe Biden.
LEMON: I agree with that.
CUOMO: And if it wins him Wisconsin, it could win him the election.
LEMON: I agree 100 percent.
CUOMO: And I don't know what the answer is but I know it's a problem.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And I know that pointing it out that Trump is wrong, Trump is wrong, Trump is enabling it. I don't think it's going to work. Because the numbers are going the other way.
The question is what is the solution to the violence which seems to be helping this president, even though it's happening on his watch? LEMON: Well, that's two things, Chris. You're talking about a
political thing in a campaign, right, and a strategy to win a campaign.
CUOMO: That's where we are.
LEMON: And also -- yes, we are. But also, we're also talking about on a larger level, a longer-term level --
RYE: Right.
LEMON: -- is how do we, as Americans, white, black, whatever, have this conversation? You can't put parameters on people.
And Mike, you can't expect people who've been discriminated against for their entire lives, whether you knew about it or not, not to be angry. Not to be upset. Not to sometimes call names.
Is it right, does it feel good? No. But you cannot also -- you cannot say I understand and then try to set the parameters for the conversation because then that is also -- that also plays into privilege.
So when you are arguing with a loved one, there's no parameters about what you can say. You may do it out of respect for someone else but you don't tell them, no, you can't say this. That's not honesty. So you have to --
SHIELDS: No, I wouldn't --
LEMON: You have to meet people where they are. And sometimes you got to get beat up. And people call you names and you get mad. And it doesn't feel good.
SHIELDS: Don --
LEMON: It doesn't feel good.
SHIELDS: I hear that, Don. I hear what you're saying. But my point is -- I can't argue with anything you said.
My point is, if you want to have reconciliation then you've got to be able to meet people in the middle.
And what I saw this summer was that people -- it was like silence is violence. So if I say something, it's the wrong thing to say; if I don't say something, it's the wrong thing to say.
And I saw some conservatives who hearts were opened by what happened throw their hands up from the process and say there's nothing I can do about this. And I think that was terrible.
LEMON: I agree.
SHIELDS: There was a moment when they could have --
LEMON: I agree with you 100 percent.
SHIELDS: -- made more --
RYE: But why is that --
LEMON: But why is that?
[02:45:00]
Why are you afraid? Why are you afraid of what may happen if someone disagrees with you? Or if someone raises their voice at you? Why are you afraid of being called racist if you just admit --
SHIELDS: But --
LEMON: -- that you might be, in some sense. Why are you afraid of that?
SHIELDS: Because it's used as a weapon, Don. It's not an open conversation to say, you know, Mike, there's some things that you did that you may not realize are racist. Let's have a conversation.
It is, "You're racist, you're Republican. If you have these views you're obviously a racist."
And then it's used as a weapon to beat me politically or to besmirch my reputation. And so then that tells me I better not even engage in this conversation because there's a penalty for me having this conversation.
LEMON: And what's the penalty?
RYE: But I think --
LEMON: What's the penalty?
LEMON: Hold on. Hold on -- Angela, hold on one second.
SHIELDS: (Inaudible) being labeled.
RYE: I have (inaudible) been here. I just have to --
LEMON: What's the penalty --
CUOMO: Well, if Mike Shields admits --
LEMON: What is the --
CUOMO: If Mike Shields were to admit he is a racist, I'm not saying is, I don't think he is -- but he's done. By the way. There's no --
LEMON: But how so? How so?
CUOMO: Because there is no virtue in that kind of acknowledgment in our media culture. He'd be banned from CNN, he wouldn't be on TV anymore. LEMON: If --
CUOMO: No campaign would want to go near him.
LEMON: If he said --
CUOMO: He wouldn't have anybody want to publish his pieces except--
LEMON: If Mike Shields said --
CUOMO: -- like the "Washington Examiner."
LEMON: -- I have a racial blind spot or a racial bias. Or maybe there's something --
CUOMO: Well, that's different. That's different.
LEMON: No, no. Maybe there's something in me that is racist, I don't think he would be banned from anything. I think people would applaud him.
CUOMO: I don't -- I think you call yourself a racist --
RYE: Hey, guys, I just --
CUOMO: -- I think you got big trouble.
RYE: Sorry, I've been just trying to chime in here for just a minute.
LEMON: OK. go ahead, Angela.
CUOMO: Go ahead.
RYE: Just really quickly. Mike, I heard you say some things that sounded racist to me. They didn't sound that different from words I heard used by the president United States tonight.
You started by bashing the Democratic Convention a wokeness convention. And once upon a time, not long ago, woke was a very positive thing, it was a way to inspire people to consciousness. To see something they hadn't seen before.
Then when you talked about George Floyd and people getting jumped on because it was uncomfortable, imagine what it's like when police lights come up behind someone who's just driving and they're terrified because they're black?
So yes, it may not always be comfortable to have these conversations but it is imperative to have the conversation.
When you also call black lives matter and distinguish between black lives matter in little "b" versus big "B" when there was a whole conversation right after George Floyd about capitalizing the "b" so we're no longer deemed as inferior, it's triggering to me.
Because I hear you saying that the only way that my life can matter, is that if it stays inferior.
Additionally, you used a right wing, far right-wing, talking point and a trope against BLM by calling them socialists.
Those women are my friends and I know them very well and they are not socialists.
So when you say things that sound racist, I'm going to call them racist.
It is not to target you, it is not to ensure that you don't get another job. But it is to make you aware of what could be a blind spot because it is dangerous.
And because of that rhetoric, they get death threats. Can you understand why that might be troubling to me if they are my friends?
LEMON: Let me say this. We do have to go because we do have to get to a commercial.
But Mike, I'm glad we had this conversation. And I invite you back to have this conversation as often as you are willing to come back to have it. That is the only way we're going to change things.
It may feel like a pile on, I don't mean to pile on to you. What I'm trying to do is trying to get us to come to some sort of consensus.
Yes, I understand it hurts, and that it feels bad. But there are things in everyday life that Angela and I go through that you guys don't go through that feel bad every single day.
And it's not just someone calling you out for it. It's things that happen every day, little things. And so those things hurt as well. We're just trying to get you to understand.
And guess what? I don't believe in cancel culture. I think you should be commended for having the conversation that you have. I don't believe in canceling people because they make a mistake or for something they did five years ago or ten years ago, whatever.
Or even something they did and they apologized for it and they're truly sorry for it. I don't believe in that.
So the whole cancel culture thing -- listen -- and people painting you with racist and you won't be allowed on a network, I think that's B.S.
So listen, my brother, come back and talk about this. And let's meet wherever you say we can meet and have this conversation.
And I think that what every American should do. I don't judge you for this conversation, I don't think poorly of you, I think better of you for it.
And he went away.
CUOMO: It's all right. He left. See, you already canceled him. LEMON: I didn't cancel him.
CUOMO: You canceled him. You were saying you wouldn't and you did it.
LEMON: I didn't cancel him, I didn't cancel him. We had trouble with the signal earlier.
CUOMO: Insult to injury and then the screen went black. You see? And that's why he wins, Don.
LEMON: I didn't cancel Mike Shields.
CUOMO: That's why he wins.
LEMON: We got to go. That was great but I know we're -- we got to go.
CUOMO: Thank you, Angela.
RYE: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. And thanks, Mike. Thanks, Angela. Sorry about your signal, Mike.
RYE: (Inaudible), guys.
LEMON: Bye.
CUOMO: Got to laugh. Because we cry too much.
LEMON: We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:50:00]
CUOMO: The conventions are in the books. Does it matter?
Let's bring in the Wizard of Odds, Harry Enten.
Question number one, brother. Do they matter?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN SNR. POLITICAL WRITER & ANALYST: Of course they matter. But the fact is that the bounces have been getting smaller.
But more important than that, what's important is that the incumbent bounces tend to be larger than the challenger bounces. At least since 1972. And I think that's something very important to keep in mind.
That incumbents gain six out of eight times compared to the pre- convention numbers and the average bump is two points.
Which, of course, if you believe that the president is getting tighter as you have so eloquently put so many times, this race might become even tighter from this point forward. CUOMO: Does it help in the cross tabs when you use the White House as
a backdrop?
ENTEN: I mean who the heck frickin' knows. This is a whole thing --
CUOMO: It can't hurt.
ENTEN: It can't hurt. It can't hurt. I mean look, the fact is Biden didn't get a bounce in the polls right? You see that the "CBS News" yougov poll, he stayed basically about the same.
But all this stuff is historical, right? You don't know -- this is all a ridiculous campaign where you have people unmasked when the CDC says they should be masked. And who the heck really knows?
So it's all historical. I can only provide you that, a roadmap. But I don't know what the heck is necessarily going to happen.
CUOMO: One point that we've made before that you don't have a slide for but I think it's important for people tonight --
ENTEN: Go ahead, it's 2:54 for the morning.
CUOMO: Wisconsin -- ENTEN: Yes.
CUOMO: -- could wind up being kind of gateway for this entire election. And what's happening in Kenosha, I would posit, works better for the Trump campaign then the Biden campaign. I know you can argue it either way.
But is there any indication of what is happening in Wisconsin recently?
[02:55:00]
ENTEN: No. But what I can tell you is what we spoke about last night. Which is that the Black Lives Matter is seen considerably less favorably in a state like Wisconsin than it was two months ago.
The protests tend to be viewed in a much more negative light than they were two months ago. And the fact is, a large part of that reason is because the protests are seen as more violent than peaceful than they were, say, two months ago.
And I think the images that you see on your television screen don't necessarily help that. And the peaceful protests that you are seeing two months ago on TV, and they were sort of pushed up in the news, that's no longer the main news story.
So I get you completely. Look, we don't know how this protests are necessary going to play. Obviously, it's a new ball game that it was. But I think that I agree with you that the president has more upside than downside.
And truthfully, even if he didn't, he's just trying to change the topic from where we are currently because he's down by eight or nine currently and he needs something to change.
CUOMO: Last point. Well, he's down by eight or nine but it depends on where you're looking.
ENTEN: Sure.
CUOMO: That's why I only at the race in terms of where it's going to matter. Not the popular vote.
ENTEN: Four to six in Wisconsin. Go on.
CUOMO: Time is of the essence.
ENTEN: It's --
CUOMO: Why is that ordinarily true and what does that mean in this election?
ENTEN: Here's why time is of the essence. Time is of the essence for two reasons.
Number one, if you go three to five weeks from the convention, what you normally see is that anything from that point forward, the incumbent tends to lose ground on average. Right?
So if Trump is unable to close the gap in the next three to five weeks, he's probably toast.
Number two. Remember, North Carolina starts voting in a week. That's when the absentee ballots are sent out.
We're going to have record numbers of people voting by mail, voting by absentee. And a bunch of swing states Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, all these places start voting in September.
And so the president better start closing the gap now. Because if he doesn't, Chris, he might find himself so far behind with all the ballots that are coming in, even that if he makes a comeback by, say, mid-October, it may not be enough for him.
CUOMO: Harry Enten, thank you. Time is also of the essence for us in this broadcast. We're over time, we got to go. But it was worth it. Thank you to the Wizard of Odds.
Thank you to you, my brother. You could not -- I couldn't ask for a better partner.
Thank you for taking the chances with me that we need to take, right?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It's no time for subtlety.
LEMON: I enjoyed this. Let's do it again, but let's do it earlier. Shall we?
CUOMO: I don't think it's going to happen. I think this is our shift, and maybe -- it'll probably get later.
LEMON: We're always in trouble. Hey, listen, if we don't -- if we're going to be on at one or two in the morning and not have these -- and not speak like this then what's the point. Right?
CUOMO: True. And I think the instruction is --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- the more of us are talking this way --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- the better it is for the American people.
LEMON: I agree.
CUOMO: We do nobody any favor by hiding from what is all around us.
LEMON: And you didn't have to cancel Mike by taking him off the screen. That was your fault.
CUOMO: That was not me. And the screen went black. Nice touch.
LEMON: It went gray.
CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.
LEMON: Thanks for watching, everybody. I love you too.
The news continues on CNN.
[03:00:00]
