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CNN Live Event/Special
First Presidential Debate; Interview With Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA); First Trump-Biden Debate Minutes Away; Coronavirus, Economy, Race & Supreme Court Among Topics; Sources: Biden Bracing For Personal Attacks From Trump. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired September 29, 2020 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And welcome. We're about an hour away from the first debate between President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden at a grave moment for the health of this nation, for the economy and for American democracy. It is Debate Night in America.
I'm Anderson Cooper. Thanks for joining us.
We are likely to see an epic clash tonight between the Republican incumbent seeking an 11th hour reset and a Democratic challenger looking to seal his lead in the polls. The candidates are facing off at the campus of Case Western Reserve University and the Cleveland Clinic in the Battleground State of Ohio.
We're told both men are preparing for their changes to turn personal as they spar over the pandemic, Supreme Court, mail-in voting and new revelations about the President's taxes and debt. There's certainly a lot to debate during these unprecedented times.
Debate planners have made some changes inside the hall because of coronavirus concerns. President Trump and Vice President Biden will not shake hands. Members of a very limited audience are required to take COVID-19 test. We're joined tonight by Wolf Blitzer.
Wolf, what more are we expecting?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Anderson, I want to give our viewers a little sense of what they will see as this debate plays out. President Trump will be on the left of your TV screen. Both candidates will stand at podiums throughout the 90-minute debate. Vice President Biden will be positioned to the right.
There won't be any opening statements by the candidates. The moderator, Chris Wallace of FOX News will be seated in front of them. His first question will go to President Trump based on the results of a coin toss.
The debate will be divided into 15 minute segments covering these topics: COVID-19, the economy and race. The moderator says this segment also will focus on violence in U.S. cities.
Also up for debate, the Trump and Biden records, the Supreme Court and the integrity of the election.
We're covering every moment of this historic debate as well as voter reaction. CNN's Daniel Dale will fact check the candidates. CNN's Ana Cabrera is with a group of undecided Ohio voters who will be watching the debate very closely and David Chalian will bring us the first word of who won from a CNN instant poll.
Right now, let's check in with Jake, Dana, and Abby for more. This is going to be a lively debate.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: It certainly will, Wolf. Absolutely. As I sit here with my colleagues, Dana and Abby, and one thing that I keep thinking about is, with Joe Biden in the lead in polls, and in so many battleground states. This reminds me so much of 1980 when there was a very unpopular incumbent President, then Jimmy Carter, and the challenger who was ahead in the polls, and the question was, was he up to it?
Was he up for the job? Or was he too old? And Ronald Reagan had a bad first debate, but then had a good second debate, and then seemed to run away with it? And I think that that's one of the things Biden has. It's a similar dynamic tonight. People looking, is he up for it? Can he do it? The incumbent, I'm not so crazy about.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's funny you say that because I was speaking to a very close ally of Donald Trump and said the same thing.
TAPPER: Oh, really?
BASH: That that they're seeing it the same way for a lot of reasons. You know, one of which is that because of COVID, because they haven't seen their candidates campaigning like they usually do, this is going to be even more important to see them on such a stage.
But when it comes to Joe Biden, what is so interesting is that, you know, they have such a high expectation that Donald Trump is going to go after him in a big way. And a big part of his debate, prep has been not taking the bait.
TAPPER: Biden.
BASH: Biden not taking the bait, thank you. Biden not taking the bait and you know, not playing on Trump's turf, which is his whole point. And you know, what a Biden adviser said to me, Abby, was that if they can stay there and say, okay, that's really nice, Mr. President, but why don't we talk about what matters to the American people, then they'll feel like he had a good night.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That is why this is going to be so tough, because if you watch Donald Trump in debates, and really just as he goes about his day-to-day life, he is someone who dominates every moment and tries to dominate on the debate stage the other candidates' moments. It's difficult to get him out of your time.
And I think that if Biden is going to have to try to stay on message, I'm not sure Donald Trump is going to let him. That's one of the real challenges of this type of debate. I also think that Biden, you know, this is a moment where he has to show the American people that yes, he is ready to be President, that he can hold his own in that setting.
But he also has to stick to people's minds. He has to have them come away from this debate with something, and one of the pitfalls that Hillary Clinton fell into back in 2016 was approaching the debate as a typical debater, as sort of classic politician, giving paragraphs when people are remembering tweets and that's one of the things that Trump does very, very well.
TAPPER: And it's very interesting because I've covered Biden now since 1999, and he does lose his cool. He does get upset especially when his family is attacked.
PHILLIP: Exactly.
TAPPER: And Donald Trump will attack your family. He went after Ted Cruz's wife, he went after Ted Cruz's dad. He went after Jeb Bush's wife --
PHILLIP: And he'll attack Biden's character, which is also something that really gets him up, you know, gets his back up. The idea that Trump could start to attack what kind of person he is, I think, is something we could --
BASH: That is probably going to happen. But I am told by a source familiar with Donald Trump's debate prep that he is really ready to go after Hunter Biden. And that is why -- and it probably is not a surprise to people in Biden world because they have been really trying to steal him to avoid exactly what you said, Jake, to avoid, as one source said, getting his Irish up, and not taking the bait and saying, again, it's really nice that you want to talk about my son, but let's talk about how I'm going to bring the country back from this crisis that we're in right now with this pandemic.
Whether or not he can avoid, you know, jumping in and going after the President on let's say, his children who are working in the White House and asking whether they're qualified. We will see.
TAPPER: Yes, no, it's the difference between a debate between his head and his heart, right? He intellectually knows, I should say, that's not true what you said about Hunter, and you're going to lie all night about him. But I want to talk about what the American people care about, which is COVID, which is economy, blah, blah, blah.
But at the end of the day, that's not where his kishkas are, Dana -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Technical term indeed. All right, thank you. It's crunch time for the candidates. Let's check in with our correspondents who are covering all of them. Both of them, I should say, Kaitlan Collins and Arlette Saenz is in the Debate Hall. Jeff Zeleny, is here in Washington.
Kaitlan, this debate, as we just heard, likely to get rather personal. You've been doing a lot of reporting on this. What are you learning?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf. And you know, what's really personal to Donald Trump is his finances and the campaign and his advisers that he has been preparing with today and yesterday, ever since that "New York Times" investigation came out know that that is likely to be a big subject, and they're even expecting it to potentially be the first question directed Donald Trump's away.
And Wolf, he has not really answered questions that were raised by that reporting by "The New York Times." He talked about it a little bit right after it broke on Sunday, but other than that, he has not answered questions about it. And tonight, he really will be able to avoid questions.
So what advisers have been doing with the President over the last two days is basically saying, here's a good defense strategy because you're going to be asked about this, and you're going to have to answer.
But what their fear is, is that the President will not take their advice and will instead rely on his own instincts, off the cuff measures that he has done so many times in the past. So that's really anyone's question as to how he actually handles that tonight.
But Wolf, the President has been dealing with questions about his finances for four years now. Aides knowing that this is an incredibly sensitive subject for him --
BLITZER: I just want to say these are live pictures of the Biden motorcade arriving at the debate, but go ahead.
COLLINS: Yes, so you see they're already arriving here. The President is expected to be here shortly as well, Wolf.
And so the question tonight when it does come to those questions about his finances is does he deflect like he did four years ago when Anderson Cooper asked him about his finances, and he turned it on Hillary Clinton's donors instead of directly answering the question.
So that is something that advisors say they're not even sure exactly what it is the President is going to say tonight.
BLITZER: Standby, I want to bring in Arlette Saenz. Arlette, how is Joe Biden bracing for the President's expected attacks?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as you saw right there, Joe Biden just arriving on site a short while ago, and he is prepared for things to turn personal tonight.
One thing that his advisers have really prepared him for are these possible attacks from the President on Hunter Biden. We have repeatedly seen the President try to turn Hunter Biden and his business dealings in China and Ukraine into a campaign issue, and they have run through possible scenarios, possible lines of attack so that the former Vice President is prepared. One advisor that I spoke with noted that he may address it, but then
quickly try to turn the focus back to the issues at hand as one of Biden's advisers earlier today, Symone Sanders, who told reporters that Americans don't want to hear about by Biden's family, they want to hear about what these two candidates will do for their own families.
Now, one other thing that Biden's advisers believe will work as a benefit to them going into tonight is that they have this singular focus of debating President Trump. You'll remember those primary debates were a bit unwieldy at times with multiple, sometimes nine to 10 other opponents on that stage.
But tonight, Biden has that focus of squarely, squarely focusing on President Trump who he has real fundamental differences on. You've heard Biden repeatedly talk about how he believes the President has failed when it comes to his handling of the coronavirus pandemic, also the economy.
You've heard Biden trying to frame this campaign as one between Scranton and Park Avenue, saying that the President is only looking out for his interest and those of the wealthy and not average Americans like Biden would do in office and then you've also heard Biden talk about unity.
[20:10:06]
SAENZ: Now, one other thing coming just a short while ago was Biden did a little bit of trolling of the Trump campaign tweeting out after the Trump campaign has launched these baseless accusations that he is on performance enhancers heading into the debate, Biden tweeted out this photo saying, "I've got my earpiece and performance enhancers ready." And that's a tub of ice cream -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Very funny. Very cute. All right, thanks very much, Arlette.
Jeff Zeleny is also working his sources. What are the candidates, Jeff, targeting with their performances tonight, who specifically?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there is no question that of all the demographics of voters out there watching this debate this evening, women are at the center of both candidates' strategies, in particular, white women.
Four years ago, Donald Trump defeated Hillary Clinton among white women, he won a majority of white women voters. So that is something that Biden campaign has been trying to win back. It's a key part of their strategy.
But I am told tonight, that despite all the personal attacks and the family matters, they are indeed also speaking directly to women voters, particularly on these issues.
President Trump knows that he's not necessarily like he is not going to change that strategy by trying to win over those who don't like him. But I'm told he is going to focus specifically on that Supreme Court appointment he has made, as well as what he believes is one of his biggest legacies that is appointing judges to the bench -- conservative judges. He will hammer home his anti-abortion record.
He also will try and paint Joe Biden as extreme, paint him as extreme and part of the Liberal Democratic Party establishment here. He is trying to keep some other white voters who do not like some other women voters, who do not like him necessarily, to avoid going to Joe Biden.
What Joe Biden is going to do is try and present a sense of calm, try and present a sense that he is in control here and he would change the direction of this country. He knows that people are exhausted and he is going to be talking to women as well, particularly on Obamacare.
He is going to link himself to the former President of the Obama administration on Obamacare, and talk about that specifically not going after necessarily the Supreme Court appointment of Judge Amy Coney Barrett, but talking about why it matters with Obamacare.
So for all of this here, Wolf, for all of the jockeying back and forth, women are a pivotal vote here and both sides are going after them. Donald Trump knows he does not need to get people to like him, but he is trying to keep that slide from continuing to Joe Biden.
BLITZER: Very good point. Jeff Zeleny, thank you.
As we head into tonight's debate, CNN is of course committed as always, to putting facts first.
Our fact checker Daniel Dale will be scrutinizing every word tonight. Daniel, you've been warming up for the debate, looking at some of the claims made by the candidates that are likely probably almost certainly to come up later tonight, including this one, by President Trump about Biden's healthcare plan. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Biden plan would destroy Social Security and destroy protection for people with preexisting conditions.
We will always protect patients with preexisting conditions -- always.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Daniel, what do you make of that claim by the President?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Wolf, these claims about preexisting conditions are not only false, but kind of up is down reversal of reality. These protections for preexisting conditions were created by Obamacare, when of course, Vice President Biden was Vice President. Biden is now running on preserving and strengthening that law, the Affordable Care Act.
Trump, conversely has repeatedly supported Republican bills that would have significantly weakened those protections in Obamacare, and his administration is now in court trying to get the judges to strike down the entirety of Obamacare.
Now, Wolf, that's one of the things I'm looking for. I'll tell you what else I'm looking for. Number one, the disparity tonight, the substance of the false claims is important, but so is the count. So, is one candidate making far more false claims than the other?
Number two from Trump in particular, does he go down the kind of conspiracy rabbit holes that may play well with FOX News viewers, but a general audience may not be as familiar with. Number two, does he continue to make false claims on the three subjects on which I think he has been most frequently dishonest in recent weeks.
Number one is the coronavirus pandemic. Number two is voting, especially voting by mail. And number three is Biden's record. As we saw in that clip, he keeps ascribing positions to Biden that Biden does not hold.
Now from Biden. Well, when he talks about his Senate record, he sometimes denies things that are on the record, that he did during his past political career, for example, a claim that he always opposed the Iraq War, at least from the moment it started. That's not true.
Biden is also sometimes fuzzy on numbers. He'll exaggerate either intentionally or unintentionally. And occasionally, he'll just make up a story.
We had a story earlier this year during the Democratic primary in which he claimed that he got arrested trying to visit Nelson Mandela in prison. That just didn't happen -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Daniel is going to be fact checking every word that we hear tonight. He will be here with us on CNN, of course, as well.
As we close in on the debate in Cleveland, Ohio, our correspondents are inside the hall. They're digging for new information right now on the candidates' strategies. And we'll ask Senator Elizabeth Warren for her advice to Joe Biden on how to take on President Trump later tonight.
It's all ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:18:50]
TAPPER: Welcome back. You're looking at the podiums there in Cleveland, Ohio and we're going to keep an eye on the Debate Hall as President Trump and former Vice President Biden prepare to take the stage for their first debate.
Right now, let's bring in someone who has debated Joe Biden and sparred with President Trump at other venues that would be Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts.
Senator, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you.
TAPPER: So President Trump and Vice President Biden's records are one of the key topics in tonight's debate. "The New York Times" reported that President Trump paid just $750.00 in Federal income taxes in 2016, and then again in 2017.
Now, you've accused the President of tax scams. Are you actually accusing the President of committing a crime or is what he did -- I mean, because I haven't seen any evidence that what he did was illegal.
WARREN: So we don't know at this point, not enough detail has come out. But you know, here's the thing. Yes, it shows just how skizzy Donald Trump is. But it also tells us something else, and that is how badly broken our tax system is.
Notice, you'll make the assumption. Look, this may all be perfectly legal. Yes, it may be legal because the tax system itself is broken. And remember, what is Donald Trump's signature achievement of the time that he has been President? And that is a trillion and a half dollar tax cut. A break that went to billionaires, it went to giant corporations.
His tax scandal is the reminder of exactly what's broken in America why Donald Trump needs to go and why we need Joe Biden as President.
TAPPER: Now, I heard a Trump surrogate, Chris Christie make the argument that if that's your argument, the Democrats' argument that the Tax Code is broken, Joe Biden has been in public office for decades, isn't he partly responsible for the tax system being as broken as it is?
WARREN: Oh, have at it, Chris Christie. Are you really kidding me? Joe Biden was out of the White House, out of the Senate, when the Republicans, can I say that, again, the Republicans, all of them made their major signature, this is what we're going for, is we're going to cut taxes for the richest and most powerful people in this country.
And by the way, should I say they followed it up with their second big, big effort, and that is, let's take away healthcare from tens of millions of Americans and take away protection for people with preexisting conditions.
Only, that one failed, ultimately in the Senate by a single vote. That's been it. They want to cut taxes for the rich and powerful and take away healthcare from everyone else. That's the Republican plan.
TAPPER: So let's talk about what we are going to see in just a few minutes. The debate, Donald Trump, I think it's fair to say is both an unpredictable and combative debater. You have debated with Joe Biden, how is he on the stage?
WARREN: Oh, Joe is going to do fine. He's going to do great, because what he is going to show us is what he has been showing us for the whole campaign. He has got to show us that he really has a plan. He believes in government on the side of the people. And that means, in this case, a plan for dealing with COVID. A plan
for dealing with an economy that just keeps tumbling further and further down, a plan to deal with racial injustice in this country, and a plan to bring some basic decency and fairness back to the White House.
TAPPER: What do you think Joe Biden should do when President Trump says something about him that is not true? Whether a run of the mill political lie or a more devious smear?
We've already been told that the moderator, Chris Wallace of FOX does not intend to serve as any sort of truth squad. Do you think that Joe Biden should try to truth squad the President or should he not? Is that a trap, and he should focus instead on what he wants to do for the American people?
WARREN: Right, Joe Biden doesn't need my advice. I know he will give his vision for what needs to be done in this country, and that's what Americans want to hear. They want to hear that someone can be President who cares, who actually cares about them and who is invested in making our government work competently.
You know, I never would have thought that we would turn an entire presidency on this, but look where we are; 200,000 Americans have died from COVID-19, and here we are seven months into this pandemic and Donald Trump and his administration still don't have a plan for dealing with it.
They've basically said to the rest of America, you're on your own. I hope you can figure this out.
And we need someone like Joe Biden, who has a good heart, and who also wants to have a government that is basically competent and will run a strong, competent government.
TAPPER: In addition to the constituents that you've lost, Massachusetts has lost to the coronavirus, I should know that you also lost your beloved brother to the virus. There are millions of Americans out there, who on the subject of the virus, think the President is doing a good job.
They have faith in hope for the therapeutics for the vaccine. They blame China for the virus, and they think that the human loss is tragic, but not President Trump's fault. What would you say to them?
WARREN: The way I see this is we asked for our government to be on the side of the people. You know what that meant? It would have meant last January, last February, it would have meant getting masks and ordering tests and getting people ready.
It would mean always talking about the science. It would mean always putting the lives of our people first. But no, that hasn't been how Donald Trump has done this. It's always been all about Donald Trump.
[20:25:12] WARREN: He got up at those press conferences over and over and over,
and he touted false science and worried about his own ratings, not about the fact that we were losing brothers and sisters, moms, dads, and children. People have died because Donald Trump refused -- refused -- to put in place a plan for our nation. That is fundamentally wrong.
And on November 3rd, people across this country are going to hold that man accountable.
TAPPER: Senator Elizabeth Warren, thanks so much. And again, our deepest condolences on the loss of your brother. May his memory be a blessing.
We're going to take a quick break before the first Trump-Biden Presidential Debate begins. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:28:46]
COOPER: And welcome back. You're looking inside the Debate Hall at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. We were about 30 minutes away from a truly, potentially epic battle debate. Who knows exactly what it is going to be?
David Axelrod, I mean, you've been with President Obama, three debates. What are the candidates doing right now, do you think?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they're collecting themselves and they're probably with aides who are not prepping them, but just kind of encouraging them and you know --
COOPER: That time is done.
AXELROD: Yes, you're not going to be -- if you're prepping now, you've got some deep problems, so whatever they're going to do, they are going to do, but you want to get them into the right frame of mind.
But I must say, I don't know what it's like to prep Donald Trump for a debate, you know, because he approaches this in a different way. He's an entertainer, and who knows? You know what he is thinking.
COOPER: Is there a danger? I mean, Joe Biden is used to debates that, you know, he talks about a record, someone else talks about their record, they attack each other's record. Donald Trump is -- he can be playing a different game.
AXELROD: Yes, and I think that's a big issue. You know, we heard Elizabeth Warren talk about him talking about his vision and the President. He'll be -- Jeff Zeleny said, he wants to project calm, those presidential qualities that people don't see in Trump. It's really hard to do when you've got the guy six feet away who is in your grill all the time and interrupting you and --
[20:30:15]
COOPER: If you remain six feet away. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh well, no he won't. But it's, think of it this way. It's kind of like your Joe Biden, and you're playing a nice little folk song on your guitar. And then comes this guy with a chainsaw coming at you, that's going to be the difference.
There are Biden rules that he is abided by, during 47 years of debates over and over and over again. And those are the rules he's used to. Now he knows Donald Trump. He knows who he is. He watched the Hillary Clinton debates, obviously, probably over and over again. But he's never experienced anything like that.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And listen, I wouldn't be surprised because the rules say you can't walk over and shake hands. Trump might just walk over. I mean, you have no idea what Trump is going to do. And I think that's going to be -- it's going to be incumbent upon Biden to know why he's there, and for whom he's there. That's the thing. If it becomes about, hey, I'm feeling insulted. I wanted to spend my vote 1937 voted, for 1973. If you think (INAUDIBLE) Biden rabbit hole --
BORGER: Right, he can't.
JONES: But there are two Biden's and there is a Biden that I think is deeply offended by what's happened to ordinary people. And when he says -- when he stands and delivers for that. When he speaks from that he is powerful. And but -- he could go either way.
BORGER: Yes.
COOPER: By the way, we're watching President Trump's motorcade are arriving at the hall. Sorry to that.
RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I did 30 presidential debates. Now, obviously, not as the nominee of the party. But I will tell you several things. If I'm in the Biden camp, this is why I worry about number one, an hour and a half, continual debate. And most presidential debates, you know, primary debates, if commercial breaks, you get a chance to go to bathroom where you get a chance to talk to somebody and you get a sense of how you're doing.
You get a little feedback. And he's not -- you're out there, you're on the island. You have no idea. I know, David mentioned that, you know, President Obama after the first person, I thought I did pretty good. Hit -- you and you're out there, you don't know, you think you're just in the moment. You're not looking at like, how am I doing? That's -- that never.
So what happens, in particular, an hour and a half continuing no break, you can get into completely away from all the things that you were briefed on, because you just become in the moment. And it's survival. You're out there on the island who is surviving. So all of this stuff. My point is, he's 77 years old. He's been doing this for a long, long, long time. And you can train him and train him and training. But once you're on that island for a long period of time, you're going to snap back to a things you feel comfortable doing. And that may not be (INAUDIBLE) --
COOPER: Which is the same for President Trump, frankly.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: He know he's going to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: In one of these final debates in the last time around the second one, the intensity on that stage. I mean I've done primary debates where it's 16 people, but to have it be just down to two. It's like the molecule (INAUDIBLE) --
AXELROD: You know, when you're preparing for these things. What you want to do is you want to reduce all the guesswork, you want to serve, anticipate what's going to happen. And if you're -- if you've prepared well, your team knows what you're going to say, when a subject comes up. When the line comes at you expect to hear from the President. For example, your team will know because you've practiced it and you've rehearsed it. And that's what you got a whole sort of team tonight.
COOPER: What do you need to do tonight?
BORGER: Well, if I'm Joe Biden, I'm going to take everything that Donald Trump says, and I'm going to turn it to COVID. Do you even care about these 200,000 people who have died? What would it be like to have a president who believes in science, talk to the American public? Don't talk to Donald Trump? You give him a flick of the wrist as we were talking about, let him insult you then go to the American public. OK, there he does it again. Let's talk about your family.
COOPER: What is Joe Biden, in your opinion? What is Joe Biden convincing the American public and what is President Trump trying to convince the American?
JONES: Well, a couple of things. First of all, Trump is going to say you've been in office forever. You never did anything, you suck. Why should you even -- I think he's going to just basically try to make it seem like Joe Biden is the establishment and the failed establishment. I think Biden has to point out.
He has a record, he has -- when you're talking about inheriting a complete economic disaster, and leaving the country in prosperity, that's a record. We talked about inheriting a broken health care system, and then getting health care to millions of people. That's record. We talked about the violence against women. You got your opponents, bleeding women, you've done something for them.
And so he's got to remember what he has done and deliver on that. He's also got to be ready for Trump to throw punches he's not expecting. Trump is going to come after Biden on the question of race. Trump is in -- I say listen, I did more than you guys did on black colleges, on criminal justice, on opportunity zones, and I don't think Biden has ever been challenged in that way.
[20:35:05]
And so he's going to have to listen. He's got to come back. He's got to say listen COVID has hurt more black people. Others, your recovery didn't help like, but this is going to be something, I think you're going to see Biden having to defend himself on race and what he's never had to from Republican.
AXELROD: Now, the interesting thing is he's going to bring up, I expect that the President may bring up the '94 crime, which is an interesting thing to attack Biden for being weak on crime, at the same time that you're attacking him for a bill that you think was too zealous. But I think that that is likely to happen.
Look, I think that all of that is true. But if the whole night is him dealing with his record, that would be a failure, he needs to deal with where we are now. And, you know, the pivots that we heard some folks talk about are the ones he has to make, the Supreme Court comes up, it should be all about people with pre-existing conditions in the Affordable Care Act, Trump's taxes come up, it should be all about the tax bill that he passed, it benefited people like himself, and not average working folks like the people who Biden grew up with. And I think that and he has to project a sense that here's an alternative, there's a better way here.
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: Trump never talks about the future.
SANTORUM: Yes.
BORGER: So, you know, he never talks about what he's going to do for the next three years. That's what Biden needs to do.
SANTORUM: That's his weak point, because that's where Donald Trump is going to turn him into a socialist. I mean, is he for fracking, there's you against fracking. And that's going to be a big issue, is -- on the issue of the courts, is he for stacking the court or is he against stacking the court. He's Joe Biden has tried to walk this razor's edge of being a cheerleader for the socialists. And at the same time saying, I'm the reasonable guy here --
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: And he's going to have to answer some of these questions, clearly. And if he doesn't, then you come into the question, is he up to it? If he dodges, which he's done so far on some of these issues? Is he up to it?
JONES: I see a definitely. I think you guys have created a real trap for yourself, because you keep trying to make Joe Biden seem like a socialist, I think he's perfectly capable of, and he did it against Bernie over and over again, of giving his own position. And so, I do think they're going to try that. They're going to try to put him in that socialist corner. I think that's going to be actually to Biden's benefit.
BORGER: Well, and to your point, Rick, that the question is, is he up to it? You know, on Fox News, it's all over, then he's not up to being President, Joe Biden isn't up to being president. Joe Biden has to be commander-in-chief tonight. And --
SANTORUM: He has to be strong.
BORGER: But he has to be as strong as Donald Trump. What does that say? Honestly. So, you know, Joe Biden --
(CROSSTALK)
BORGER: -- has debated during this campaign, he's been out there. He has done a bunch of interviews, answers a lot of questions --
SANTORUM: He has not done a whole lot of campaigns --
BORGER: Yes, he has.
SANTORUM: -- for the past two months. Well, let's just be honest.
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: I think, Rick, on the socialist point, one of the most effective lines in this whole campaign was when Biden turned to the camera and said, look at me, do I look like a socialist mob loving. And it made the whole thing seem absurd. And this is the big problem that Donald Trump has, because Joe Biden is culturally inconvenient. He is an old, white, Catholic working class guy who does not -- who is moderate, and does not look -- and does not look like --
BORGER: Over the years.
SANTORUM: Well over the last six, eight months, and last year, I mean, he's changed a lot of --
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: We all watch the primary, he almost lost the primaries, because he wasn't left enough. The left was not happy about him winning those primaries. I had a conversation on my podcast with Bernie Sanders the other day, and Bernie Sanders said, look, I'm way too left to have Joe on a bunch of stuff and we're going to fight about it after election day. So, I understand -- look, I understand the tactic.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: If Joe look -- if Joe and that's what Republicans are looking at. Is Joe going to be able to stand up to the socialists? And, you know, tonight, we'll see.
AXELROD: But the question, if Biden frames that right is not -- who's going to be driving the car, but what about the car that this guy just crashed? COOPER: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: You can't -- you can't think. Donald Trump did not create the coronavirus. So --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: (INAUDIBLE) worse than every other global leader period. And so, no, he didn't create it. But he mismanaged it so badly that we have almost a quarter of the cases and only 4% the world's population. But there's one more thing I want to get you. I do think that this question around the economy is a jump ball. Because I think that Trump has created a method himself. He was doing great on the economy. And then this thing knocked him off course.
SANTORUM: Well, wait, it's not --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: (INAUDIBLE) conversation, that first of all, Obama was moving things in a better direction and then it slowed down under Trump.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: So what is -- what does Trump have to do tonight? What does it have to do tonight (INAUDIBLE)?
[20:40:00]
JONES: OK, well my point is simply this. I think that if Biden can take away from Trump, this mythology that he was doing so great, you have family farmers going into the ditch, because of the China stuff before corona. He had manufacturing stalling out before corona.
In other words, I think that -- I think that the jump ball on the economy, if he can -- if Biden can make the case for himself, I'm not only going to handle this pandemic better, I'm going to handle the economy better. I think that's essentially what he's got to be able to do, he can pull those two things off (INAUDIBLE).
BORGER: Well, and that's where he uses the Recovery Act, right, because he was the one that Obama put in charge of the Recovery Act.
JONES: Yes. And then by the way, black people got a lot of stuff out of the Recovery Act under Obama did the -- what was done under this president, when it came time to try to recover from this COVID virus, African-Americans got left out, Latinos got left out. That is a true fact. And so, if we want to have a conversation about who's going to be better on the economy, I think Biden (INAUDIBLE).
AXELROD: You look at polling on that tax cut. And you pause it again, should we use that money for $1.5 trillion in tax cuts, skewed to the wealthy, or on, you know, healthcare, and education and Medicare and social security? That is a dead bang winner for -- SANTORUM: It's not dead whenever you're proposing close to $4 trillion
in new taxes on an economy that's hurting. I mean, Biden has to defend a record of having voted I think for 116 tax increases while he was in the United States Senate.
Maybe he is someone that is for bigger and bigger government, which ever I mean, most Americans, I think you're convinced that higher taxes and more regulation don't lead to better jobs in the (INAUDIBLE).
BORGER: Who is the deficit grown under?
SANTORUM: Both of administrations unfortunately,
COOPER: Let's check back in with Jake and Wolf. Jake.
TAPPER: Thanks, Anderson. Appreciate it. So Abby and Dana, one of the things that I'm wondering about right now is, so let's say that I am an undecided voter in Pennsylvania, in middle Pennsylvania, and I like Trump's policies, but I'm concerned about his tweets, and maybe I'm unsure about the COVID response.
And I'm really undecided. Does him going -- just going after Hunter Bides, just going after Joe Biden in a nasty and personal way. Beyond just normal political combat. Does that win me over? I don't know that it does. Right. If you already kind of like don't like the tweets.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Yes. I mean, the temperament issue is always a problem with Donald Trump. But, you know, if past is prologue here, looking back at 2016, he -- this was true, then too, he still never shied away from the antics. And, you know, the bringing of, you know, Bill Clinton's accusers to a debate, I mean, he really leaned into the very things that people thought made him unpresidential.
I would not put it past him to go in that same direction tonight. The question really, is whether Biden is able to make a case that he's more presidential than Trump, and that it matters to them as it has to matter to people. Because a lot of these same undecided voters, they'll say, well, I don't like his personality. But, you know, I like my tax bill, or I like, you know --
BASH: You're absolutely right. But you're onto something Jake and I have spoken to Trump advisers about this very thing. They're very well aware that Hillary Clinton is not Joe Biden. That if you look at just when the question of whether or not they're likable, Hillary Clinton was about the same level, as Donald Trump was, than it is now.
But Joe Biden isn't. People like him better than they like both of the other candidates. And that does matter when they're going to be perceiving how Donald Trump goes after him. But the Trump campaign people around them think that he doesn't have a choice, because right now, it is completely a referendum on Donald Trump. And he needs to make it a contrast, debate whether it's not just me, it's about whether you want me or this guy, and that's why they're going to be -- he's going to be as aggressive as possible. I was told that for the first 30 minutes, he has been prepped to be as aggressive and on the offense as much as he possibly can.
TAPPER: Well, that I could see that definitely. And that's also just who he is.
BASH: Right.
TAPPER: But I also think like this entire campaign has been a contrast. I mean, that is right. Isn't that what Joe Biden has been trying to do? even calling a lead early in the day, so the reporters that understand he's not going to be in the news that day, like he is trying to be a president, you don't have to think about --
BASH: Right.
TAPPER: -- every (INAUDIBLE).
BASH: When, you know, this the term contrast when you're the incumbent is, this isn't just about me, this isn't a referendum on me it is, do you want me? Or do you want the person who's on the other side of the stage? Because you think you don't like me, but if you don't have me, it's going to be me or him. And so, the whole goal of any incumbent, especially this one is to make the guy who wants his job even more undesirable.
PHILLIP: But I do think one of the things you said about the level of energy that Donald Trump brings to a stage like this is really important and not for all of the reasons that the Trump campaign wants to make it important that the sort of falsehoods about performance and enhancing drugs. But I do think that as Biden is trying to sort of be the adult in the room, he can't be so boring that he puts people to sleep.
[20:45:03]
I really do think that it's got to be, he has to match Trump energy for energy on that stage. And that's easier said than done when you're trying not to get into it, not trying to try not to get into the gutter. I think that is one of the big challenges for Biden, how do you find a middle -- a happy middle ground where you're the adult, but you're not, you know, the boring guy, or you don't seem like you have, you know, as much sort of enthusiasm for the job as Trump -- I mean, Trump makes the stage and everything --
TAPPER: Sure.
PHILLIP: -- about him and makes everything that he says about himself seem really great.
TAPPER: Absolutely. Look, I mean, he does have a certain -- I mean, both men have charisma, and Donald Trump is certainly a much more vigorous person. And they try to draw that contrast all the time.
What if President Trump is asked a question, and he does what he normally does, which is kind of just a word (INAUDIBLE) and he pivots and then attacks Joe Biden. And then Chris Wallace goes to Joe Biden, and what if Joe Biden were to say, just as the adult in the room? He didn't answer your question. I'm willing, I'm willing to give my time to him. So he answers your question, because he doesn't have an answer, Chris, he doesn't have an answer.
BASH: I mean, that could be a very good tactic. The downside, I think, from the Biden perspective, and the way that they have prepped him is to own the stage.
TAPPER: Yes.
BASH: And it's hard to own the stage if you're giving up your time to somebody to prove that they don't have an answer. And the other thing is, if past is prologue, Donald Trump didn't have a lot of answers in 2016. Hillary Clinton did, and it didn't make --
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Now, he has a record. Now, he has a record.
PHILLIP: Well, sometimes I think this brings up a very important point about tonight, we're going into a debate in which everybody wants to say, I'm not the fact checker. When Donald Trump has given them his two minutes or however long he's given to speak. Oftentimes, the answers are just not true. There is an asymmetrical situation here, where more often than not President Trump says things that are not true.
And that's more often than other people in the political sphere. So there is a challenge here where Biden is going to have to manage somebody who is a much more prolific liar and teller of falsehoods. And on one particular issue, I think this is going to be critical. The economy. There is nothing that the President likes to inflate more than his misstatements of the Obama-Biden record. And his statements about his own record on the economy. I think it'll be Biden will be hard pressed to let that, you know, slide.
BASH: You're exactly right. There is a fine line from the perspective of the Biden camp. And again, how I'm told they prepped him, which is you can't be fact checking all night long.
TAPPER: Right.
BASH: Because then, by definition, you are going to be playing on Donald Trump's turf. There will be moments though where he's not going to have a choice but to jump in and say, Mr. President, you're just wrong, but he's going to have to pick his moments. Because he doesn't want to be the fact checker.
TAPPER: Yes. There are facts, too. I mean, the run of the (INAUDIBLE) lies that politicians tell. There's the abundance of run of the (INAUDIBLE) lies the President Trump's details. And then there are just the vile smears that we've heard from this campaign, which we've never had before in American history.
Let's go to Wolf Blitzer now. BLITZER: All right, Jake. I want to bring in CNN political director, David Chalian. So David, set the stage for us on tonight's debate, specifically CNNs exclusive instant poll that will give us a quick read on who won it.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, we're setting the stage of the mission here for Donald Trump. I want to pick up on something you just heard. Dana Bash, mentioning, this is the entire mission, making this election about Joe Biden as much as it is about Donald Trump. Donald Trump has failed to do that, Wolf, the entirety of this campaign, he couldn't do it across the four nights of his Republican National Convention.
We're now five weeks away from Election Day. He has to follow the successful re-election models of President Bush in 2004 against John Kerry, of President Obama in 2012 against Mitt Romney, they successfully made what is inherently a referendum and incumbent going before the American people saying this is why you should re-hire me into a choice about their opponent versus them.
Donald Trump has failed to do that with Joe Biden to date. Tonight is one of the last best chances for him to do so people are voting. So those are the stakes tonight for the president who enters this as the underdog.
You mentioned the poll. One of the things I'm fascinated to see coming out of tonight's debate in our instant poll, Wolf, not only will we learn from debate watchers, who they think won the debate, but we're also going to see if opinions on the candidates change from going into the debate, before the debate started, and then did anything change coming out of the debate in terms of their opinion of Joe Biden or Donald Trump.
Another thing Wolf that we're going to check in with on folks who they think can better handle the issues. You've gone through all the big six topics in the areas that are going to be debated, but we'll learn in our instant poll tonight on some of these major issues who the debate watchers think Trump or Biden will actually do a better job handling those key issues.
[20:50:07]
BLITZER: I want to check in on what's happening right now on the stage as we await the start of this first presidential debate. Take a look -- you can see what people are talking up there, we're getting ready. We're only a few minutes away from the start of this debate, it's going to be a significant moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: And you're looking at the debate stage, we're just about 10 minutes away from the start of the debate. In moments, we expect First Lady Melania Trump and Vice President Biden's wife, Dr. Jill Biden, to be coming into the room and they will be seated. Chris Wallace, of course, is the moderator tonight, both candidates will come out they will not shake hands, per the regulations because of COVID-19.Although in past debates that has also not occurred in the second debate that I did, he did not shake hands with Hillary Clinton, given the tensions.
Just in the last couple of minutes now, David, for folks who are tuning in, what are the kind of the key flags you're going to be looking for in this?
AXELROD: Well, I think the one that's been mentioned around the table, which is half as Biden navigate Trump's antics and his, you know, when -- if he says something that's untrue, what does he do? If he says something provocative, and personal, how does he handle it, and still maintain that kind of presidential demeanor and talk to the country about the future that he envisions and the change that he would bring.
BORGER: You know, Trump is going to be relentlessly asymmetrical. He's going to attack from every angle. And the question is, how does Biden handle that? How does he pivot from these insults and attacks to what he wants to talk about, about how he would lead the country in the future, and not go down those rabbit holes that David was talking about before and get locked into a, you're a liar, you're a liar, you're a liar kind of debate.
JONES: Tonight, showman versus statesman. That's what you're going to see. And you're going to have a man of character, and you're going to have somebody doing a bunch of kind of, you know, comedic high jinks. I think what Trump is going to try and do is get have the little viral moments, get those little jabs in. I think what Biden has to do is to stand there long enough to pull his coalition together and lock it in with his character with his empathy.
SANTORUM: If that happens the way Van describe it, Trump won't be the president after this, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. I think Donald Trump will from the first minute beyond attack. And just whether they ask question about him, he will turn it an attack. I mean, he will -- this will be an hour and a half of Joe Biden just getting beat up. Because I think they believe that they have to make this race about Joe Biden, number one, and they believe he won't be able to stand up under the pressure.
BORGER: But (INAUDIBLE) attack back. I mean, can he try everything --
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: If I were the (INAUDIBLE), I'd be prepared for an hour and a half street fight.
AXELROD: Listen, I don't think they want that. But if they -- if it becomes a scrum, and it's a 90 minutes street fight, and Biden's still standing at the end of it --
SANTORUM: I agree.
AXELROD: -- that I said that he has done what he needs to do.
COOPER: That is one of the things that this President hasn't really been able to define Joe Biden, for variety of (INAUDIBLE).
AXELROD: Yes, well, I mean, like when you're running a campaign against an challenger, you want to make that challenger as much of an issue as you and he had, you know, and they have not been able to do that with Biden they've tried many different avenues and they haven't been able to make one stick.
And now, we're 34 days out. It's getting late to do that. This debate is really crucial. If they're going to open up some wounds here that are going to really mean something. This debate is going to have to produce that.
JONES: I think that what I've seen is every time people attack Joe Biden it backfires. Castro went after Biden and disappeared, Kamala went after Biden and had to get out the race and, you know, luckily she's back in. There's something about Joe Biden, he has some tough one. And so, I just don't think that he's going to get up there make -- yes, beat up Joe Biden, beat up one of most beloved people in the country, beat up somebody who's buried half his family, beat up somebody who cares about you.
I don't think this is going to go the way that they think it's going to go. If they did with what you just said. I think that may actually help Biden more than hurts.
BORGER: You know, the Reagan line, there you go again. And you can, you know, Joe Biden can use that against Donald Trump. If he continues to attack him, Joe Biden can smile at him and say, OK, that's a lie and, and go on. I mean, I think I am sure, actually, that they have responses ready made for him to just flick something back at the president and then turn and take it back.
[20:55:06]
SANTORUM: The bottom line is Republicans believe that Joe Biden has lost more than just a step. And they believe that an hour and a half of a smack down will tell -- well, that will come become evident. That's what I think --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That is a gamble that they're willing to take.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: I think they're in a position that they have to take, right?
AXELROD: You need more, you need more than Republicans, you have to persuade others. And the fact is, if you look at this polling and you ask, who has the mental acuity to be president, they're pretty even in this regard. So they've got a lot of ground to make up here.
BORGER: You know, if you're playing at the base --
COOPER: Last night --
BORGER: -- and that's your argument, fine, but not voters that you might need to persuade. JONES: I think you have. I think you do have people who are in the Democratic coalition right now who they want to vote, because they want to vote against Donald Trump. But they also need some reassurance tonight from -- it's not just Republicans, you need that reassurance. I think there's some Democrats need that reassurance, too, that he's tough enough that he's strong enough.
But I think that he's going to be up to. If you remember, when, when he was in that big old mix of all the other Democrats who kind of look and lost and with comes off, off. Once it got down to just him and Bernie, he was able to hang and I don't think it's just because Bernie didn't go after him. Personally, I think it's because he -- I think Joe has a lot to say, and wants to say it and we'll see it tonight.
BORGER: I mean, don't forget one thing I was thinking of is looking back at the debates in 2016. The old Trump thing what have I got to lose? Yes, 2016 not as much as he has to lose now. Is a lot to lose now? It's going to be tough.
COOPER: How do you see the big starting just in terms of topics? I mean, what's the first question from Chris (INAUDIBLE)?
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: Isn't it hard for the taxing not to be --
JONES: I think, Chris, Chris Wallace (INAUDIBLE) --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: As a casual moderator (INAUDIBLE) different ways to go about it, I think, would be the obvious one.
SANTORUM: Yes. I think that the courts also just -- I mean, that those are the two most recent news would be the Court nomination and taxes you would probably lead with what (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: But sometimes -- if something's so obvious on the taxes, for instance, you might go COVID with, you know, the there's the Trump family entering.
SANTORUM: Yes. The only the only reason I think Wallace doesn't leave with the tax, because it's clearly leading with just an antagonistic topic.
COOPER: Right.
SANTORUM: And I think I mean, out of the box that just may look, I just think will look bad. And I think will make Chris look like he's taking sides.
COOPER: Also, you can make the argument as a moderator, he doesn't need to do one necessarily introducing at first because Joe Biden's mentioned it no matter what.
SANTORUM: I think it's a lot more neutral as a starter. That way you're not setting the table. He's picking on one side --
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: -- it's a weak point, as opposed to some (INAUDIBLE).
AXELROD: You know, in your point, Rick, about whether Biden can execute on what Gloria suggests, which is to hit and pivot hit and pivot, we're going to know very quickly, I think because of what you said, because the President is going to be attacking him from the start. And we'll know if he has a strategy to deal with that. You know, I think we'll get a sense.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: Here's, here's the point, again, hour and a half, no breaks, nobody to talk to, not getting any feedback, whether that strategy is actually working, because he may stick to that strategy, whether it's working or not, because that's what he was trained to do. Or he may be sticking to it. And the fact that Trump keeps hammering me thinking, what's not working, I better change.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: All (INAUDIBLE) are dynamics. Again, unless you're out there in that stage yet to live that with no idea what's going on in that mind.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: In debates, if you look at the ones with Clinton, Donald Trump is almost sort of doing a jazz perform. I mean he's like --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: -- what's happening --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Actually enjoying it's a noise, whereas the other person is clearly not enjoying the experience.
(CROSSTALK)
SANTORUM: It's -- and let the point is it's debilitating. And that's the point I keep making it. It's over time, an hour and a half, where --
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: That's one thing that we haven't talked about is that the families are both there. And these are two very, these people, these are two men who love their families. They are very, very committed to family stuff. And so, I'm very curious to what's going to happen. Hey, listen, I've been tell you.
Listen, Trump is proud to be a Trump. Biden is proud to be a Biden, when the family issues hit, and I think they will hit I think there will be questions raised about Hunter, I think we're going to see how does he handle that.
And also, in some of this family stuff is now fair game because of this tax stuff. So you might be in a situation now where you have two dads proud of their families proud of themselves trying to navigate in public life, that kind of a family feud, which is now a part of a national life.
BORGER: I think that we may be sort of we're talking about Biden getting hit and then pivoting, but I think Biden's going to hit back a little bit too. I do. If it's it I don't know if it's on family, per se Van. But I do think that there are going to be issues that Biden's just going to go right back at him.
COOPER: We are just minutes away. Let's go back to Jake.
TAPPER: Well it's obviously huge night and we're just minutes away from it. Dana closing thoughts as we prepare for this big moment?
[21:00:06]
