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CNN Live Event/Special
Trump and Biden Clash in Chaotic and Combative Debate; Trump and Biden Clash in Chaotic and Combative First Debate. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired September 30, 2020 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:06]
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And here we go, the coverage you all have been waiting for. We know you stayed up late just to watch me, Don Lemon, and that guy, Christopher Cuomo.
Did I say your name right?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: It works.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I think we should call the show tonight, "Men with Pants."
LEMON: Because this is the first time that we've actually wore pants in six months.
CUOMO: This is it. This is one of the upsides of the pandemic is that we've only had to worry about our tops. But now we've got a lot to worry about.
LEMON: Jeans and sweat pants and shorts.
CUOMO: Yes. Shorts. Fishing shorts for me.
LEMON: But I think this -- it's official now. This is official. It's the first debate. And, yes, we have a lot to worry about.
This is our special coverage of the presidential debate 34 days to go until election day. Can you believe it? 34 days. But, Chris, what we saw tonight was not normal. This was not normal in the course of a presidential debate.
CUOMO: One other time in this administration we have been forced to say it exactly as it is because the vulgarity is not in the language, it's in the reality.
LEMON: What do you want to call it?
CUOMO: When he said shithole countries, we said it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Because it was so offensive, so obscene, we had to. Tonight was a shitshow.
LEMON: Shitshow.
CUOMO: That's what it was. No offense. If any kids are up right now, even on the West Coast, you should go to bed. That's much more of a problem than the language, but America lost tonight because you saw the president be all he knows how to be. There should be no surprise, Don.
LEMON: It wasn't about whether Joe Biden won or whether Donald Trump won or whatever, but this -- the American people lost. When the president of the United States went on that debate stage, he showed us exactly who he is. We've known it all along. He has said all along. We've known -- when people show you who they are, believe them.
This president is insulting, Chris, he's a liar, he's a bully and he is a racist, and it came out tonight.
CUOMO: This is what it had to be.
LEMON: Couldn't he condemn the Proud Boys? Couldn't he condemn --
CUOMO: No.
LEMON: Racism? Racism?
CUOMO: No. No. This is a base election for the Trump campaign. I know this. You know, for all of the enemy of the state, I've never had better access to an administration or a campaign than I do with the Trump Organization. And they wanted him to be aggressive. And, you know, you'll hear people say, oh, they didn't want him this aggressive. Yes, they did. This is a base election and he gave the base what they needed. He can't condemn the Proud Boys.
LEMON: They want him -- did they want him to be that way or they just say we know he's going to be that way, so we're going to make it work?
CUOMO: I'm telling you, it's a both. Their theory of the case was this. We're going to come out and hammer him, and we will show that he gets addled. He can't keep up with the pace of Donald Trump, and that Donald Trump is mighty and strong, and Joe is stuttering and weak.
LEMON: But I felt like watching -- listen, we are in the age where people do things -- I felt like I was watching a kid whose doctor had prescribed him too much Adderall.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: So much --
CUOMO: You should not be taking -- you know, can't just reach into the medicine cabinet and take what's in there and hope it works.
LEMON: No, but am I wrong? That's how I feel because he was overly aggressive. Just -- it's like he was hopped up on -- I don't know what was going on. CUOMO: Look, to me, I wish -- I wish I could see it that way, because
I think a lot of people share your observation. This is the only guy I know.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: When threatened, this is what he does. And what will you hear over on FOX? Apex predator.
LEMON: It was great.
CUOMO: And this is what he has to do, because that's how they see it. Might makes right.
LEMON: When are people who are in a debate -- when are they supposed to get along, when are they supposed to be cordial, and that sort of thing. But there are -- when you're the president of the United States, you should have some decorum, right?
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: And some respect from someone -- for someone who was a vice president. A senior statesman. And not to mention, I think being that aggressive with someone, who America actually really likes, Republicans really like, Republicans like Joe Biden, I don't think that that was good for the president to come off so aggressive with -- with Joe Biden.
CUOMO: Yes, but, again, I think there's a built-in --
LEMON: Not that Joe -- sorry. Not to cut you off. Not that -- I'm not critiquing Joe Biden's performance yet because I don't --
CUOMO: Are you Trump? Can't even finish my answer, you just jump --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No, no, I'm just saying. Not that I think Joe Biden was that strong, but I think that the president's aggression and aggressiveness, it did not come off well.
CUOMO: I know that Biden was coached for a while to not respond in kind, which anyone who knows Joe Biden will tell you, that's not his natural -- if you -- if you give him one, you're going to take one. There's no question about that. I don't care what his age is, I'm telling you right now, he gives as good as he gets in person, but he was coached directly not to do it.
Did that work for him tonight? That's up to you. Is that what people wanted to feel? He believes or the theory of the case within his campaign is that within their voter group, they don't want a bully contest. They don't want an angry male contest, get off my lawn contest with Trump. So they were playing their own game, but tonight really was about Trump showing all he can be, and the proof in the pudding that this was exactly what he wanted to be. This is exactly who he is came in the biggest moment -- the biggest revelation I've ever seen in a presidential debate, OK?
[01:05:04]
He was given a layup for everyone except David Duke, OK?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He was asked by the moderator to tell right-wing extremists to step down. He says, well, who, who, give me a name. Like he doesn't know any white supremacist? You don't know any names? You need me to give you one? They say, the KKK, the neo-Nazis, and Biden I think said the Proud Boys. OK? They say the Proud Boys. What do you say to them? Listen to his answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, DEBATE MODERATOR: Are you willing, tonight, to condemn white supremacists and militia groups --
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sure.
WALLACE: And to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland.
TRUMP: Sure, I'm willing to do that.
WALLACE: Are you prepared to specifically --
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Do it.
WALLACE: Well, go ahead, sir.
TRUMP: But I would say -- I would say almost everything I see is from the left-wing, not from the right-wing.
WALLACE: So what are you -- what are you saying?
TRUMP: I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace.
WALLACE: Well, then do it, sir.
BIDEN: Say it. Do it. Say it.
TRUMP: You want to call them -- what do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name.
WALLACE: White supremacists and white --
BIDEN: Proud Boys.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: White supremacists and right wing or left wing.
TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by, but I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what, somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right-wing problem --
BIDEN: His own -- his own FBI director said the --
TRUMP: This is a left-wing problem.
WALLACE: Go ahead.
BIDEN: Threat -- white supremacist. Antifa's an idea, not an organization.
TRUMP: Oh, you've got to be kidding me.
BIDEN: Not militia. That's what his FBI -- his FBI director said.
WALLACE: Gentlemen --
TRUMP: Well, then you know what? He's wrong.
WALLACE: No, no, no, we're done, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Why on earth could he not condemn the Proud Boys? It is insulting, but, again, we didn't expect anything differently, but as you said, it was a layup. I almost thought when I was watching this that he was going to say, OK, I condemn the Proud Boys. They shouldn't be out there. He says they need to stand down and stand back. Not stop it. Don't contribute -- don't contribute and -- or stand by, I should say. Don't contribute to the violence. Don't be a racist pig.
Yet the president of the United States, who is supposed to represent all people, people who look like me, Chris, who get attacked by the Proud Boys, they attack you, too. They just don't like you because they think you're some --
CUOMO: Being friends with you doesn't help, let me tell you.
LEMON: Yes. Yes. Me and you being friends, that doesn't help. But was that insulting to you? Because as someone -- think about me in that, right? I know you're insulted as an American, but think about somebody who is African-American or our Jewish brothers and sisters who the Proud Boys always talk you know what about. They hate us.
How do you think that feels when you see the president of the United States not able to condemn that?
CUOMO: I think it hurts. I think it causes tremendous pain. And I think the biggest mistake this president has made is that he doesn't care about anybody else's pain. He cares about his own interests, his own success. And he ignores the pain, the toll of what he says on people. And I think you know who should be most insulted by what he said tonight is real Republicans.
You are not about racism. Conservatism doesn't have to equal right- wing extremism. Think about what he did to your party. He wants you guys to own white nationalists. They are the right and Antifa and BLM are the left. He equates them constantly. Yes, fine, I'll say it about -- they're wrong, but what about -- wait, why? What is the good aspect of white nationalism? What is the good aspect of the Proud Boys or the KKK?
Pick any of the groups that are known as the number one domestic terror threat. Here's the problem with your argument. Antifa, whether you want to accept what Biden -- which did come from the FBI director, Wray, or not that Antifa is an idea not an organization.
LEMON: The FBI director.
CUOMO: He said that. But let's say we reject it. You want to reject it, fine. There are good aspects to any organization that is part of what you want to describe as Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter is an idea. Systematic inequality is real, whether he wants to admit it or not, and the idea that it's all bad can't be true in America. You can't believe that. That everything about people wanting systemic equality is bad.
But everything about white nationalism is bad. Everything about the Proud Boys, everything about the KKK is bad.
LEMON: No, there's one good thing.
CUOMO: What?
LEMON: For him.
CUOMO: What is it? Well, they like him.
LEMON: They support him and they vote for him.
CUOMO: They like him.
LEMON: Let me say this because you brought this up. The Proud Boys shield. You said it's online.
CUOMO: Oh, terrible. Online right away. As soon as he said it.
LEMON: The Proud Boys have been designated as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, that rank-and-file Proud Boys and leaders regularly spout white nationalist memes and they maintain affiliations with known extremists.
[01:10:05]
CUOMO: Look at this.
LEMON: Tell me about this. When did this pop up?
CUOMO: Right away when he said it.
LEMON: Stand back. Stand by.
CUOMO: Just like when he said that BS in Charlottesville, the white nationalists loved it. Just like in Michigan, the way he talked about those white nationalists that were getting in everybody's face. You should talk to these people, he said to the governor. You should hear them out. They celebrated. That is PB, Proud Boys, stand back, stand by.
LEMON: He knows what he's doing.
CUOMO: Of course he does. Why did he think about it? He thinks about it because what's the calculation? Hold on, I don't want to give any room here because it's got to be offset. I'm no worse than they are.
LEMON: I want to go deeper real quick.
CUOMO: Please.
LEMON: Why is he doing it if he doesn't think it works?
CUOMO: He absolutely thinks it works.
LEMON: For his base.
CUOMO: It does. It absolutely does.
LEMON: But what does that say about his base?
CUOMO: Trump's base includes bigots and racists. Is it all? Of course not. And that's why the deplorable thing was such a huge mistake for Hillary Clinton. These are people who feel real humiliation. You have systemic inequality on the bases of class as well as color. There are many white working-class families that are desperate. That desperation is real. And someone who speaks to it is going to change it.
LEMON: That doesn't make you a bigot.
CUOMO: Absolutely doesn't. That's my point. All of Trump's supporters are not bigots.
LEMON: But that also doesn't make you support bigots. Just like when he said there are very fine people on both sides. And I heard the arguments tonight on FOX. I'd like to see what both sides are saying here. Well, Donald Trump didn't say very fine people on both sides. He -- that it meant that the white nationalists and neo-Nazis were fine people. He was saying the people who were arguing against the statues and the ones who are arguing for -- there were good people on that side.
That's not what it says in context. If you have people who are marching at a rally that was put together --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: -- by white nationalists and neo-Nazis, how on earth, how the hell are you a very fine person? That argument makes no sense. Stop it. Even in context when you play the entirety of what the president says, it does not make sense. It is not what he said. That is a bold- faced lie.
He said very fine people on both sides and he was talking about neo- Nazis, racists, white supremacists.
CUOMO: Right. And, look, I think it's a scary thing, but it's true. And I'm willing to hear anybody rebut it as a presumption. The only time this president is measured is when he's talking about hate. It's the only time that there's any subtlety.
LEMON: And Putin.
CUOMO: To his comments. Putin, you know, one of the most embarrassing moments as an American for me was being in Helsinki seeing our president next to Putin and say, well, he told me they didn't do it, and I don't know why -- I don't know why he'd lie.
LEMON: Were you like this?
CUOMO: You know how bad it was?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: As I was slinking away back to my hotel to drink as much Aquavit as I could find, I had international journalists stopping me and either apologizing, like, comforting or saying, well, now you know how it is -- this guy in Egypt stopped me and said, well, now you know how we felt under Mubarak. That was a sad moment.
LEMON: But let's stick to --
CUOMO: It's the only time he's measured.
LEMON: We're talking about --
CUOMO: Is when he talks about hate. You know, so, because if anything else, he's absolute, he's immediate, he's 100 percent.
LEMON: By the way, which is, again, as you said, and the FBI director said, and, remember, when I said it, do you remember how much crap people gave me?
CUOMO: Oh, sure.
LEMON: Don Lemon is a race baiter. He's a racist. He hates white people. None of which is true because I wouldn't be hanging out with your ugly behind.
CUOMO: True.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: But when I said that white -- that white nationalists were the number one terror threat or white supremacy, I should say, white supremacist hate groups, the number one terror threat in this country, it is true. The FBI director --
CUOMO: It's what the FBI says.
LEMON: Then why -- CUOMO: That's what H.R. McMaster said on my show the other night.
LEMON: Why is so uncomfortable with that? Why won't he say it?
CUOMO: That's a great question. It's the only time -- remember with David Duke?
LEMON: No. Who was that?
CUOMO: I don't know the man.
LEMON: I don't know who he is.
CUOMO: I don't know the man. You know who he is, though, right? You know he's the head of the KKK, right, punitively. Isn't that all you need to know? The fact that you don't know him personally, is that really the criteria? I don't know him personally either, but I'll tell you what, if he ever said something good about me and people said do you like that he supports your work, I would say, no, I must be doing something wrong.
LEMON: There you go.
CUOMO: That's what you're supposed to say when you're not a bigot.
LEMON: You want to do some fact checking? There's a lot. I don't know if we have time.
CUOMO: How long is this show?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: We'll be on until your old show "NEW DAY." You'll be thrown to your old --
CUOMO: No coffee or IV?
LEMON: Daniel Dale is here. You want to get to him?
CUOMO: Please.
LEMON: All right.
CUOMO: Bring him on in. Daniel Dale, was there anything said tonight that was true?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: You're over here. This camera.
DANIEL DALE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Honestly, there was from Joe Biden. I would say that he was largely accurate, though imperfect, but from the president, this was another just avalanche of nonsense.
[01:15:03]
An avalanche of lying, let's put it bluntly. This was just so dishonest, again, as usual from Donald Trump.
CUOMO: Well, here's what -- I think the category that matters most to correct, especially now, because voting has already begun. The president has a consistent drumbeat that we should know by now is not in concert with any factual basis, which is that unsolicited ballots are new mail-in ballots and are filled with fraud, and there are always problems with them.
What do we know about how long unsolicited ballots have been part of the framework of our democracy and what our history is with problems in that regard?
DALE: So, by unsolicited, he means states that send out ballot -- mail ballots to people who don't have to specifically make a request for that ballot. I don't have an exact time period for you, but what I can tell you is that before the pandemic, for years, there were at least a few states -- I think roughly five -- that sent out ballots to all registered voters. Now, those include Republican reliably Republican Utah.
And even in those states, I should just say in those states, there is no evidence of significant fraud. They've run these unsolicited ballot elections with no significant incidents of fraud whatsoever, Chris.
CUOMO: And I can add to your fact check. The president said tonight, you know, they found some in a waste basket. That is partially true. In Pennsylvania, they had a third-party contractor who was confused, as many people have been. Philadelphia has that two-envelope system. You put your vote in an envelope and you put that envelope in another secure envelope. The third-party contractor wasn't familiar with the work. He has new. He or she.
And they disregarded nine ballots, seven were from Trump. How do we know that? DOJ put out that information that seven of them were votes for Donald Trump. Now, as we both know in their handbook, their guidelines are that they don't politicize investigations, especially during an election, but they put out that information.
He also says they found some in a stream. I can't find anything about a stream involved in any of this, except his stream of consciousness about fraud and these ballots.
DALE: I think there was -- and I want to be tentative here because I don't know the whole story. I think there was a case in which some mail was found in a ditch, some of which may have included either absentee ballots or absentee ballot applications. I also haven't found anything about a river or a stream. We know that the president likes to make his stories more colorful.
But I'll add that there is so much he said on the subject of voting that was either exaggerated or just wrong. He was talking about the situation in Philly that became a thing in conservative media today. He's just grossly inaccurately describing the situation at these elections offices. He again claimed that there was fraud in Carolyn Maloney's 12th District primary, Democratic primary in New York. There is no evidence of fraud. And even her defeated opponent tweeted
tonight, as he has in the past, to say Trump is lying about this. The issue was disqualified ballots for nonfraud reasons. No evidence of fraud at all.
CUOMO: What would you call the whopper of the night?
DALE: I think one of the first -- it's so hard to pick, Chris. I think one of the first --
CUOMO: That's the job, brother. You wanted the job.
DALE: I know. I know. I think one of the first ones was his insistence that Joe Biden -- he said you want to take away health insurance from 180 million people with private plans. If you, like, were alive during the Democratic primary, you remember this was one of the biggest fights between Biden and Bernie Sanders. Sanders wanted single-payer Medicare-for-all in which private insurance would be largely eliminated.
And Biden said, no. What I want is to largely continue the current system. I want a public option in which people can voluntarily opt in, but if they want to keep their plan, they can. So he's just making up that this is Biden's position.
CUOMO: My choice is that he says he has a health care plan, and when Chris Wallace asked him, where is it? He said, you'll see.
DALE: He --
CUOMO: And when he said he paid millions of dollars in taxes instead of $750 --
DALE: Oh, that's a good one. I forgot that.
CUOMO: I guarantee you within the next three days somebody's going to put out that portion of the tax return.
DALE: Yes. That's a good one.
LEMON: How long has he been saying, "you'll see," Daniel? I mean --
DALE: People have done articles about this. And it's usually two weeks. That's his favorite timeframe. It's coming in two weeks. So we've had literally years now of the health care plan coming in two weeks.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Well, "you'll see" will still be accurate if there's ever a plan.
(LAUGHTER)
DALE: Yes.
CUOMO: At some point he'll be right, as long as they put out --
LEMON: That was the right question to ask, Daniel Dale, is, what did he say that was true tonight? And that Daniel would have a much easier job to pointing out. Maybe you wouldn't have anything to say?
DALE: Of course there was some stuff that was true. Just my brain is on like falseness. You know, I don't keep track of the true stuff.
CUOMO: Well, listen, Daniel, you do a great job. It's not an easy job and we appreciate you doing it, especially around the clock as you are at these events. So thank you, brother. Appreciate you.
DALE: Thank you.
LEMON: You see while you're talking to Daniel Dale, I'm over here busy with my tie.
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Of all the things that we said, guess what text I get from my mother?
CUOMO: Your tie is not straight?
LEMON: Straighten your tie.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: She didn't say, I love what you said, you look great, tell Chris hi. She says straighten your tie.
CUOMO: And you know why? Because everything else was perfect.
LEMON: There you go. So I got to fix and straighten my tie.
CUOMO: Yes. There you are. Now you're at 100 percent.
[01:20:01]
LEMON: We got a lot to get to. And I want you to help me out with this because I want to bring in some folks who watched this very closely, they cover it all the time.
That is our senior political analyst Mark Preston and our senior political commentator Jennifer Granholm, the former Democratic governor of Michigan, Toluse Olorunnipa, White House reporter for "The Washington Post."
Good morning, good evening for the West Coast, good morning for the East Coast. How are you guys doing?
JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: All is well.
MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: We're doing great.
LEMON: Mark, I'll say this. I don't know if you agree, but I say it's a new low in a presidency of new lows.
PRESTON: Yes, no, I think you're right. And as Don and Chris will know, you know, we've spent a lot of time together, the three of us, in prepping for debates. Prepping on the other side. Working with the moderators. Working with you all in preparing for these. And what I think we saw tonight and it was very clear early on, this wasn't a debate. So you can't judge this on terms of who won the debate.
It's who came out of this at the end of the night for that small sliver of undecided voters who are going to say to themselves, this is who I want to lead the country for the next four years. It's certainly what we saw tonight, it hardened both sides. People that love Trump are going to think he did a great job. We know he didn't. People that love Joe Biden are going to think he did a great job. I don't think he actually did do a great job, but the fact was Trump was so over the top, so out of control, so lack of decency, seeing tonight, that it really helped Joe Biden immensely.
LEMON: Listen, I don't disagree with you because I don't necessarily think Joe Biden's performance was that strong.
PRESTON: Right.
LEMON: But I think that he spent way too much time responding to what Donald Trump said instead of to what Chris Wallace said. He should have just ignored Trump and kept on with his answers. And I know that's sometimes very tough to do.
But I think, Jennifer, there was a collective, could this man just shut up? I'm saying it very nicely. I can't say that word. We said the S-show word, but I think people were saying, can he just shut the hell up? Can he just shut up and let the guy finish?
GRANHOLM: Yes.
LEMON: What do you think? No?
GRANHOLM: Yes. I mean, when Joe Biden said, will you shut up, man? He spoke for the nation. And you know, to you -- I actually thought that Joe Biden did a really good job tonight because, can you imagine how difficult it is with this guy in your ear the whole time saying, no, no, jabber, jabber. And you can't even, you know, you can't even communicate.
The best part of Joe Biden's night was when he looked to the camera, several times, broke that third wall, and said to people, you know, you are an American at the end. And he said the whole thing. That you're are an American. You can control this. You vote. Or when he said to people at the beginning when they were talking about COVID and he looked and he said to the people, he doesn't have a plan.
LEMON: Jennifer, I don't disagree with you.
GRANHOLM: And when he looked --
LEMON: I think that was -- that was probably his best moments. But I will have to say -- I do have to say, as someone who sits here, and I have people yelling at me, you and Toluse and Mark, and everyone, and Chris, and I got producers in my ear, I have to keep focused and keep -- and keep my concentration.
GRANHOLM: You do it for a living.
LEMON: But if this guy, Joe Biden, has been doing this for 47 years, he's been on a debate stage. The former vice president, I should say. I should be respectful, you're right. The former vice president has been doing this for decades. He should not -- he should not fall for Donald Trump's bait. Donald Trump is trying to throw him off his game. He should be steadier and keep his focus and keep his concentration.
GRANHOLM: No one has debated anybody like Donald Trump. He is completely a rule and norm violator, intentionally. That's why I think a lot of people voted for him. But nonetheless, if you are a debater, it is wildly hard to ignore the nut on your right, which is why when he said, "Will you shut up, man?" everybody said, thank you.
LEMON: Everybody -- OK. Toluse, just --
GRANHOLM: Thank you.
LEMON: Just give me one second, please. Just give me -- I just have to ask Mark.
Mark, we do debate preps. Do you think they had someone there interrupting him, Joe Biden, every time? They should have someone interrupting Joe Biden every single time someone asks him a question. And he --
PRESTON: Me?
LEMON: Go on.
PRESTON: And I'll take a more 25 seconds to answer this. Look, I think that you're absolutely right and I do think the governor is absolutely right. Where I think Biden fell short, though, tonight, and, again, this doesn't matter because Trump was so horrific that it -- that it's not going to matter. The conversation is not about whether Joe Biden did a good job or a bad job. It's how bad of a job Donald Trump did.
LEMON: I have to agree.
PRESTON: And having said that, I think that Joe Biden could have brought a little more energy to stage tonight and he seemed to deliver that at the very end of his -- of his --
[01:25:02]
LEMON: We spend -- I spend a lot of time criticizing Donald Trump, but I need to -- if we're going to do this and be fair, we need to say what Joe Biden -- I thought he could have been stronger on that particular part. Keep your concentration. Ignore Trump. Answer the moderator. Trump is going to try to throw you off your game. Just don't answer his question. Keep on with your answer. Toluse, let me bring you in. I want to talk to you about why this
president, who is supposed to represent everybody, doesn't seem to represent people who look like me and you. Can't even condemn a bigot, a racist, the Proud Boys. What is going on here?
TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: This should have been a really easy question for the president to answer. Will you condemn white supremacists? Will you condemn these armed militia groups that are going in to disrupt peaceful protests? And the president, really, essentially refused to do that. He said stand by, stand back, and the Proud Boys took this as, you know, essentially an endorsement. The president using the broadest stage that he could possibly have in front of the nation to say, you know, I'm standing with this group, that they should stand by for, you know, instruction, for the next steps.
LEMON: He didn't learn anything from Charlottesville, very fine people on both sides?
OLORUNNIPA: It's clear the president cannot denounce anyone who shows some affinity or affiliation with him. He thinks it's a personal attack on himself, personally, and the president had multiple times during the course of the night to denounce the white supremacy, systemic racism, instead, he said that, you know, the problem in the country is the fact that there are trainings that take on this systemic racism, that, you know, there's some sort of reversal and reverse racism, which is the actual problem.
We've seen that over the course of the president's term. He actually thinks that it's reverse racism that's the actual problem in the country. Not racism.
LEMON: I hate that because there is no such thing as reverse racism. You know what reverse racism is? Equality. If you're a reverse racist, that means that you are not a racist. So that whole reverse racism thing doesn't make any sense. If you're saying that a black person is racist against a white person, that is called racism, it's not called reverse racism.
I want to talk about this poll, Toluse. This is an instant poll from debate watchers. Democrat leaning audience, 60 percent say Biden won, 28 percent say Trump won. What do you think those numbers mean for their campaigns?
OLORUNNIPA: Well, if you look at how the Trump campaign is responding, how the president is tweeting tonight, it's clear he doesn't think he had a good night. He's attacking the moderator. He's saying that the media was in the tank for Biden. He is trying to sort of spin some of his worst answers as to make them sound more coherent. But I think they're going to be looking at the next debate and try to figure out how they can work with the new format.
It's going to be more of a town hall style format and it probably will not allow the president to be as disruptive as he was tonight. And they're going to have to figure out how to do, when you're answering questions from the American people and not a moderator. You can't be as combative as you are in this kind of setting. And it didn't seem to work for him tonight in being so disruptive and short of a bully and trying to take over the debate.
And they're going to have to recast and figure out how to not only shape the race, which they're behind, according to all the polls, but also figure out how to get the president ready for a debate in which he's going to be talking to the American people, talking directly to voters, answering questions from the constituents of people who are impacted by his policies. And he has shown that he is not sort of ill- suited for being pressed about his record. He wants to say he's the best. He's done the greatest. When anyone challenges that, he gets it back up.
LEMON: But he does it and he makes it sound like it's true when it's actually not, and that is -- that's my whole point about keeping focus, right? If you say something and you're emphatic enough about it, people are going to believe it, whether it's true or not. Many people will.
So President Trump's strategy was he interrupted every second. We talked about this. He attacked. He was belligerent. I want you to watch this moment and I want to know what people got out of this. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: A lot of people died and a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter a lot quicker.
TRUMP: So --
WALLACE: Mr. President?
TRUMP: Did you use the word smart? So you said you went to Delaware State, but you forgot the name of your college. You didn't go to Delaware State. You graduated either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class. Don't ever use the word smart with me. Don't ever use that word.
BIDEN: Oh, give me a break, man.
TRUMP: Because you know what? There's nothing smart about you, Joe. 47 years, you've done nothing.
BIDEN: Listen --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. Let's --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Let's bring in Chris as well. Chris and I talked about this in the -- as we were getting ready tonight.
CUOMO: His niece, who was the ghost writer for his first book, says someone took his SATs.
LEMON: SATs. He didn't write the first book, by the way.
CUOMO: He says he went to Wharton. He went to Fordham and had to transfer even with his dad's connections.
LEMON: University of Pennsylvania.
CUOMO: Yes. He went to -- Wharton, the University of Pennsylvania. Even with his dad's connections, he had to go to Fordham first, which is a great school, and then transfer.
LEMON: Thailand.
CUOMO: Thailand, which is only the name of a strip club somewhere, not the name of a country. The Yosemite Park --
LEMON: The Yosemite Park --
CUOMO: The park where Jews run free.
[01:29:49]
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: This guy wants to talk about intelligence -- we have never -- I literally want to apologize to President George W. Bush for anything I ever said where I was insulting or derisive of his intellectualism. Because I now realize we could do so much worse.
But that's what Trump is. I'm bad, you're worse.
LEMON: Yes. But what he says, you want to talk about smarts -- you know, he is projecting.
My question is, Mark Preston, did that win him anything? Did that gain him any support from Independents or undecideds or the women in the suburbs?
MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean look, if some of those women happen to be part of the Proud Boys movement and they were a little bit undecided then I think that they're on the president's side --
LEMON: So let's hear from a woman in the suburbs, Jennifer.
JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN, SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. No, that didn't do him any good. In fact you talked about your mom writing you about straightening your tie.
Here is what my mom said to me. She said -- and she is an older white former Republican voter. And I say former because it's just this time. She said, in fact, she couldn't even utter the words -- such a disgrace. I hope nobody else but the United States watched this. I am embarrassed. Have you ever seen such a bully?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Yes.
GRANHOLM: He was horrible. But you've got to give him this. On this answer, this was a classic Donald Trump distraction because you noticed what the question was about or what he was responding to was the 206,000 people who had died.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Yes.
GRANHOLM: He did not want to get into that, so he immediately changes the subject to a personal attack.
LEMON: Ok. So let me say, since you've mentioned your mother. My mom is (INAUDIBLE) she's mad at me. She says Don, Biden was great. Who in the world would be able to answer any questions with someone talking over you? Biden was definitely presidential. Trump was annoying and sounding like he was on drugs. That's what she said.
CUOMO: Nothing about me?
LEMON: No.
GRANHOLM: I guess our moms have got to have coffee.
CUOMO: Are you sure there's nothing about me?
LEMON: There's nothing about you.
CUOMO: Check it again. Check it again.
Are you still here.
LEMON: She did say, sounding like they were on drugs, so maybe she was talking about you.
But that's -- so that's what my mom said. And my mom is my unofficial focus group. She is usually right on. She's sitting there, she watches news all day. She watches CNN all day. She has never been this political. She's never been this tuned in. and guess what? She is always 100 percent.
So I'm wrong, mother. You are right about Joe Biden and his performance. And yes,
CUOMO: She can feel that way, but I don't think that Biden took Trump voters tonight. And I think Trump -- look if you go to Fox News, they were loving what he did tonight. They say he had a plan, he executed it.
LEMON: Well, not everyone. Not everyone.
CUOMO: It's muscular. Yes, they weren't getting a lot of sound on Fox.
LEMON: It wasn't -- I don't think the anchors were -- I think it was the, you know, the people who drink the Kool-Aid all day.
CUOMO: Like I said, over on Fox, they were saying he had a plan and he executed it. And I think they believe it's a base election.
And you know, Olorunnipa, you know, if it's a base election, Trump said everything he had to say to validate the anger that the base has towards the system, as personified by a lifer like Joe Biden.
TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Yes, the president has been running on his base for the past 12 months, but that has only gotten him to 41, 42 percent.
LEMON: Is that enough?
OLORUNNIPA: It doesn't seem like it's going to be enough. They say they're going to juice turnout. They're going to have a huge, historic turnout. But if you look at the vote, if you look at the numbers, there just aren't enough people that you can pull out of the president's base to win a majority of the American public.
There are so many Republicans, moderate Republicans, suburban moderates that the president has lost and that he's is pushing away with these kinds of performances that are so, you know, bellicose and so antagonistic. And it sort of keeps everyone's blood pressure running high. That makes it hard for him to win back some of the voters that he needs.
There were voters who took a chance on him in 2016, thinking that he would become more presidential. And it seems like he has not permanently. I don't think that the base strategy is going to be enough, especially when Biden's putting together a pretty strong coalition at this point.
LEMON: Well, the people who thought he was become presidential, for me, it's like the people who was undecided at this point? But that's a whole another show. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Great conversation.
CUOMO: So race mattered tonight.
LEMON: Who is undecided?
CUOMO: I haven't seen a poll that puts it above 10 percent.
[01:34:54]
LEMON: How much more? I don't want to be insulting. I think that people generally want to hear more.
CUOMO: They absolutely want to hear more.
LEMON: Undecided voters are already leaning in a certain direction.
CUOMO: You have dissatisfied voters is what you have.
LEMON: Yes. CUOMO: And I think that, you know, the best you can hope for is that
people who say look, I'm going to vote for Trump, I'm going to vote for Trump. And there are some who are saying I'm going to vote for Biden. I don't think there are as many nose holders for Biden as for Trump.
But you are not going to get those peoples votes by exposing what a bad guy Trump is. Biden has to finesse it and offer them something that they believe in more.
LEMON: Did you see, there's an Internet meme that went viral that said, this guy said, "Welcome to the restaurant, we have two things on the menu tonight. We've got rat poison and we've got a tuna melt. And then the customer says, and it's unfortunately in these COVID times it's al we have, right.
And then the customer says, well, I'm not really a big fan of tuna. That's how I feel when people say they're undecided. What more do you need to hear? We've had four years or five years of someone who saying I don't like -- he isn't a hero because he was captured. Very fine people on both sides, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) hole countries, paying a porn star --
CUOMO: So unless you're --
LEMON: -- while his wife was pregnant. All of these things --
CUOMO: I know. So what does it tell you?
LEMON: -- taking away health care, and you want to know how to know, you're deciding between a tasty tuna melt and rat poison?
CUOMO: I'm telling you that this is -- look, I hear you. But what I'm saying is they know who he is. So what does that tell you about their desperation, their frustration, their disaffection, their level of humiliation?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That they still think that he is better than they'll get from an insider.
LEMON: Yes, I don't know about that. I think there is something much deeper. I'm not sure what it is, but it's probably the same as our producers are telling us.
CUOMO: All right. So we've got to take a break -- we've got to take a break.
But look, race was a big part of this tonight and it matters for the analysis. We haven't spoken yet. They kind of got to it in the segment. The words of role reversal came out of the president's mouth tonight in a very interesting way.
He wasn't thinking when he said it but I think it was the most true thing he told you tonight. I'm going to put it into context, what he called role reversal, tonight. I think it tells you more about where he is on race than anything else.
A lot more analysis to be done, and I guarantee, it's the first time you've seen me and Lemon on TV with pants on.
LEMON: So my mom says --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: People out there need help.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But why didn't you do it over the last 25 years?
(CROSSTALK)
BIDEN: Because you are the --
TRUMP: Why didn't you do it over the last 25 years?
BIDEN: Because you were president -- because you were the president screwing things up.
TRUMP: You were a senator and --
BIDEN: You're the worst president America has ever had.
You should go out and vote. You're in voting now. Vote and let your senators know how strongly you feel. Vote now.
TRUMP: Are you going to pack the court?
BIDEN: Make sure you in fact let people know. Your senators.
TRUMP: He doesn't want to answer the question.
BIDEN: I'm not going to answer the question because --
TRUMP: Why wouldn't you answer that question?
BIDEN: -- because the question is --
TRUMP: You want to put a lot of --
BIDEN: The question is -- the question is --
TRUMP: -- new Supreme Court justice, radical left --
BIDEN: Will you shut up, man?
TRUMP: Who is your --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[01:38:01]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CUOMO: All right. We are back with our coverage of the first presidential debate between President Trump and VP, former VP Joe Biden.
It was so bad. The big question of the night is should there be another one. Why? Well, I mean you couldn't get a word in. The president controlled the entire thing bell to bell. He did not respect the rules. He didn't respect the moderator. He didn't respect who he was. And most of all, he didn't respect you enough to make arguments for you and to let them be compared to the other guy.
He didn't want to debate. And he got what he wanted. There was no meaningful debate tonight.
Now was there enough in that for you to see what you wanted? Maybe, especially when it comes to probably the most explosive issue in our midst right now. Because with the pandemic, unless you willfully aren't paying attention to reality, we know what's going on. We know we're in worse shape than we should be especially with our kids in school now. We know we've got to get to a better place.
But race. Tonight, the president answered the question that just a few people still have. Maybe that both sides thing in Charlottesville, maybe it wasn't so bad.
Tonight, he was asked to condemn white supremacist again. By name, the Proud Boys. Tell them not to do anything. Tell them to get out of here. Tell them to stand down. He said, I say to them, stand back and stand by.
Stand back and stand by? Does that sound like you don't belong amongst us? Not to the Proud Boys. Do you know how we know? They went nuts on social media celebrating. They put out those words as a rallying cry. Stand back, stand by. PB -- Proud Boys.
That's their -- look, there it is. Look at their shield. A message that excited bigots.
Here to discuss, CNN political commentators Mike Shields and Karen Finney. Good to have you both.
Karen, you saw who the president is on this. You can come up with your own explanation of why he is this way. But does it matter, or is it baked in?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think it does matter, and I will tell you why. And you know, Chris, I spent a bit of time speaking to swing voters, particularly white, suburban women who are kind of on the fence.
Some of whom voted for Trump in the past and are thinking about whether or not they're going to do it again. The thing that they keep saying is, you know, I wanted him to shake things up, but not like this.
I cannot imagine if they watched what happened tonight, the guy they saw on the screen, is the one they are going to trust to get us through this crisis, right now when it comes to COVID, when it comes to unifying the country and bringing us together to deal with this moment of racial reckoning.
They know he's the one who made it worse and it's interesting he brought up Portland. So I think it matters for those voters who are still on the fence, who are trying to decide, can I take four more years of this guy. Even for the ones who like him.
CUOMO: Once stop sideways to what this issue brings out about our entire cultural dynamic. During the last election, I would have Karen on all the time and we would get sideways with who she was representing in the primary. I would test her out. I would call her Finney and people would say we're combative. It was always with decency.
Mike Shields, you and I have disagreed about things in the past, sometimes gets hot. I always respect you. I always respect where you are coming from. You always debate with decency. And I think that matters. I think it matters now more than ever because we've forgotten it.
Are we going to agree with me? Impossible I don't agree with myself. My job is to be a prick. But I want you to know I respect where both of you are coming from, including where we are tonight.
So now, the piece of sound that gave birth to these concerns about the president on race most recently had to do with what was seen as his position after Charlottesville with this piece of sound.
[01:44:48]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neo-Nazis started this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He killed a person. Heather (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They showed up in Charlottesville protesting.
TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me -- (INAUDIBLE) you have some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group, excuse me, excuse me -- I saw the same pictures as you did.
You had people in that group that were there to protest. The taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park bar from Robert E. Lee to another name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Right. And of course, we start with the factual premise that the idea that it would be good people who want to keep up the confederate general, which is obviously an insult to everybody who doesn't like slavery.
But Mike Shields, are you among those who believe the president was not given the benefit of context there? That he wasn't saying that there were good people and bad people among the neo-Nazis?
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, look, one of the reasons why I was so disappointed with his answers tonight is because that there have been fact checks and there has been a lot of explaining about what he meant after Charlottesville. That he was not trying to say that the white nationalists where the good guys, that he was talking about people that believe in heritage.
And that sort of gets undone when you go to the answer he gave tonight. In fact, when he was asked that question, I was excited. I was like, finally we can put that Charlottesville thing behind us and he can just say the right thing here. I heard him denounce white supremacist before, so I literally was like, I'm really looking forward to his answer so that I can have, you know, I come on here and talk to about how he denounced white supremacists.
And he botched it in my opinion.
CUOMO: Did he botch it, or was this the answer he had to give?
SHIELDS: I don't think it's the answer he has to give, no. I don't think that --
LEMON: What does -- Mike, what does heritage mean?
CUOMO: Let's bring Don in?
LEMON: What does heritage mean then?
FINNEY: Right.
LEMON: What does that word mean?
SHIELDS: I'm not -- I'm not defending the heritage folks, I'm saying that is who he was talking about, not the white supremacists. He was making a distinction --
LEMON: But if you're not defending them, then are you saying that they're not good people because you're not defending them?
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: who would be marching in a rally that was put together by racists and white supremacists and bigots. What good person on that side? And what does heritage mean. America is all of our heritage.
It's my heritage too. I'm an American. My family helped build this country. So I don't know what you mean by heritage. That word I think sounds like code to me for a bigot.
CUOMO: Well, hold on. Mike explain it.
SHIELDS: Yes. Don look, I'm not trying to argue with you on that. I'm trying to say that there's a lot of fact checks --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: -- that he was talking about --
SHIELDS: It's not my defense. It's my explanation.
LEMON: -- people who believe in heritage as if those are fine people. And so I'm asking you to explain what heritage means. What is so good about heritage, your word, that the president feels that he has to defend them and that you can say it is ok, and others for the president to defend the people who talk about heritage.
SHIELDS: Sure. Don, I think that there is a difference between a neo- Nazi white supremacist Proud Boy open racist. They are despicable people. They have no business in our political discourse. I certainly don't want them in the Republican Party.
I think there is room for a conversation in the country about how do we preserve statues, how do we preserve our history. How do we talk about it even the difficult history that we have, rather than just having people tear down statues, but have a conversation at how we handle that.
Those are different -- that's a different conversation, and flat out Proud Boy neo-Nazis should always be denounced, white supremacy should be denounced and never be a part of our political discourse.
CUOMO: Well, here's what we know now. Any benefit that the president would have gotten for what he said out of Charlottesville, which I have always believed the answer is none to that, because we knew exactly what he was doing. He was creating a false equivalency and he was equivocating because he did not want to condemn it just like it was with David Duke should now be cleared up.
Because once again, tonight, he was given a layup and he refused it. And I'll tell you what, the soundbite of the night for me is when he was talking about sensitivity training, and he said oh, it's terrible what they're doing. You know, it's like a role reversal. Isn't that a pain in the ass?
So, it really sucks for white people to be put in a position of what it's like to be black, huh? That role reversal really sucks, right? But he doesn't believe that there is anything like systemic inequality. But he doesn't want white people to be put in that position.
You know, that's what he said tonight, Mike. But listen, we're out of time on this. We're going to be talking about this a lot.
LEMON: Karen didn't get in. I'm sorry.
CUOMO: Karen will get it more. I'll give you the last word. Go ahead.
FINNEY: Look, the bottom line, I have to say for people like me in this election, your president could not denounce white supremacy. Nothing else past that should matter. It all matters. I guess what I mean to say. But your president is fomenting white supremacist violence.
So that is not taking care of you and COVID. That's not taking care of this economy. That's not trying to heal this country. That is also not acknowledging the very real pain that black people and brown people in this country face. And as Don said, our people built this country on our damn backs. And our president -- we deserve better.
[01:50:00]
LEMON: Mike was -- Mike did say that that was wrong. That part -- but the whole heritage --
CUOMO: Mike is not a bigot, Mike is in a tough spot.
LEMON: No.
FINNEY: No.
CUOMO: Mike was open -- Mike was open to seeing the president --
SHIELDS: Thank you Chris.
CUOMO: -- clear something up. He wasn't given -- he was given the benefit of context I believe last time, but if anybody has any doubts, as Mike laid out, he was looking for an answer tonight. Mike Shields and a lot of Republicans who are real Republicans did not get what they wanted to hear from this president.
LEMON: Let me just -- let me just say this. When people say they want to have a conversation about the statues and heritage, they should know about who that statue is about, they should have some -- they should be educated about that. When that statue was erected, why it was erected and how much Jim Crow had to do with it because not all -- because most of those statues were erected because people were upset after reconstruction with the progress that black people were making in this country.
So they erected statues to remind people of color of their place. It has nothing to do with heritage. The confederate flag has nothing to do with heritage, it's about traitors and treasonous people. So for people to sit there and argue about, well, this is our heritage, and this statue -- those statues did not go up after the civil war.
SHIELDS: Yes, Don, one point is that --
LEMON: Those statues went up way after that so -- hang on, I'll let you finish.
So when people are discussing heritage, they should know what that means. That is code to many people, just as that confederate flag was for racism. For people, for white people's heritage. Not for people of color's heritage in this country.
Go ahead, Mike. SHIELDS: Don, I agree. I mean, you know --
O1: Ok. Let me get the break in. I have to get a break in. I've been told. And then I'll let you respond, Mike. Sorry about that. I'll let you respond.
CUOMO: Ok. But let's take a break. We'll be right back. You know what, that shot doesn't work. You are too compelling I have to look at you when you're talking.
LEMON: I know I'm looking (INAUDIBLE) but that's ok.
CUOMO: I'm giving you a side eye on TV but I'm really just looking --
LEMON: I know. And I'm not trying to take over your segment, but when people say that, you know -- you know me. You got it.
CUOMO: Come on, give me some knuckles. I know how you are about COVID but you know, know I got the antibodies. There you go.
Let's take a break. We'll be right back. Good talk. Good talk. Come on. Let's have more of them.
[01:52:01]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CUOMO: All right. Let's finish this point, because it's a good -- it's an intelligent conversation to have.
So Mike, Don's pointing out the word -- not to speak for him but you know, he's better for him when he does. But the reason the word "heritage" does not fit is that heritage suggests a valued history and inheritance. Something that is of esteem.
That's not what we are talking about when we're talking about the confederate flag. Even Robert E. Lee said that he thought it was a bad idea for any type of celebration of figures from the confederacy. So what do you believe is defensible for anybody in that situation?
SHIELDS: I'll be really quick, because I know we're out of time. But the reason I was going to agree with Don is people do need to realize, a lot of like schools that are changing their names, they were renamed in the 50s. They weren't renamed in the 80s even the hundreds. And that was an act of defiance against civil rights, and they should change those.
But my point is a lot of people are ignorant to that. I think a distinction between someone who's ignorant needs to be taught that and someone who's carrying a torch because they have hate in their heart those are different people. Ignorant people, we need to have a conversation with, and we need to be open so that we can listen and talk back and forth.
People with a torch have hate in their heart and we need to reject them and shove them out. LEMON: More conversations like this.
FINNEY: Can I say one thing quickly? Can I say one thing.
CUOMO: Quick please.
FINNEY: Given that I am related to Robert E. Lee on my mother's side and slaves on my father's --
SHIELDS: Oh that's right.
FINNEY: -- side, that is why we have to be honest about what happened. That is why we have to have conversation and when the president says that sensitivity training or racial bias training is teaching people ugly things and teaching them to hate their countries -- that is why it is so dangerous, and that is why as we think the next four years and who people want to vote for, these things matter just as much as economic policy and COVID policy.
It matters if our president does not believe that we should be honest about our history.
LEMON: Thank you all. We'll be right back.
I appreciate the conversation.
[01:57:27]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
