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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Poll on Vice Presidential Debate: 59 Percent Harris, 38 Percent Pence; Candidates Clash over COVID-19 Separated by Plexiglas. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired October 08, 2020 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Too forceful in trying to push it back or delay. It doesn't reflect -- it reflects poorly on their campaign. I think the debate commission will make sure it is done safely, and accurately, and any test done outside of the campaign, so we make sure we have the right answers.
But I think it is important, given the -- how crucial this election is. We do have two more debates and plenty of time for people to see the contrast between the candidates before they go vote.
But it needs to be done safely. If we have to push it back, let's do so. But we do need to hear from these two candidates at least twice before they go to the election.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thank you, both. I appreciate it.
STEWART: Thanks, Don.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take care, guys.
LEMON: So look. We are all sitting here in boxes.
Why can't they do it that way?
And we are able to talk.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Because you don't get the same satisfaction of seeing the people in the presence of one another. Look. I think the problem with the argument that was just made is that people didn't feel that the last debate changed their minds.
You have an uncharacteristically low undecided vote right here.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's talk about this.
CUOMO: I haven't seen a poll that puts it above 10 percent, undecided. LEMON: Whose mind is not made up?
I heard some people saying --
CUOMO: I'm trying to answer your question.
LEMON: I need to hear what both candidates are saying and blah, blah, blah.
After four years, do you really need to know?
CUOMO: Well, yes, people need to know. But I think they do know. I think that's your point.
And, look, here's the problem. I don't care about the debate as much as I care about the pandemic. And I just don't understand how this president can say that he cares about prophylaxis and cares about putting out the right message, if he wants to have a debate when he is sick.
I mean, it's just crazy. If you put it into the context of your own life, hey, you know, the kid's going to come to school and he or she is sick. But they'll put up the Plexiglas and they'll have the case outside -- they'll have class outside, it'll be OK. Nobody's going to accept that.
LEMON: He's got a lot of motivators to --
CUOMO: Well, he needs the debate.
LEMON: He needs the debate because he is -- in the polls, at least, he is losing. He needs to win, for a number of reasons, to help his business, the statute of limitations on some things. He has -- he -- he has, really, everything and nothing to lose, if you know what I mean.
So he's going to go for it. And that means facts, truths, infecting people, it doesn't really matter.
Let's open the show, though. And then, we'll continue.
I'm Don Lemon. That's Chris Cuomo. This is our live special coverage. CNN's vice presidential debate, late night or early morning, in the wee hours.
CUOMO: Don after dark.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Yes. That was a couple weeks ago, though, when I had my tan. This is Don after dark because I'm lighter now.
CUOMO: You look good. You look good. So look. This was a real debate, tonight. You actually got to see Pence, Harris, questions, answers, points of contrast, basic decency observed, certainly, compared to the week before. LEMON: Behind Plexiglas.
CUOMO: Behind Plexiglas because we're in the middle of a pandemic. That was Harris', you know, biggest straight punch, all night long, was early on in the debate, her saying this is the biggest failure of presidential leadership we've ever seen. We're in the middle of a pandemic.
You turn crisis into tragedy. Comes out, the same day, that the "New England Journal of Medicine" says that the president has to be voted out because of this real malfeasance of leadership.
LEMON: And they talked race, as well.
CUOMO: They did. Little bit. Little bit.
LEMON: And they say, you know, I think the vice president said -- he -- he -- he criticized Kamala Harris for saying that there was -- or at least insinuating that there was systemic racism in our society.
CUOMO: Yes and, look, a gut shot for -- that's a terrible analogy -- a -- a strong point for the president and the vice president is, you think cops -- he made -- he makes a point in a very interesting way, implicit bias in policing.
For them, that play is, you don't like police. And the difference between police and policing is lost on a lot of people. And that was a state of play I wanted to see dug into. And they didn't.
LEMON: Yes, but, for her, that's, you know, that's -- that's a hot spot because people -- people in the African American community, some, see her as a cop. Right?
CUOMO: Because she was AG in California.
LEMON: And putting a lot of --
CUOMO: And a prosecutor.
LEMON: -- a lot of people of color, especially men of color, in jail, right?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: So it was a tough thing for -- it's interesting how Mike Pence would try to criticize her on being tough on crime and then saying she doesn't like police officers.
CUOMO: That's debating.
LEMON: Right. And I think he was able to land that blow, actually.
[02:05:00]
CUOMO: Yes. Look. He's a good debater. There is -- confidence is huge, in debating. And he says things that you can't believe that he's saying.
LEMON: Because he sounds like this.
CUOMO: But he's stoic and he owns it and that is a very effective --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He sounds like this, like he used to --
CUOMO: -- it's a very effective mechanism and he's thoughtful and control matters. What hurt Trump so much last week, you're out of control, man. You're desperate. There's nothing desperate about Mike Pence.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But the thing that got me the most, though, is that he claimed to be standing up for the truth. And that is preposterous because he's not standing up for the truth. There was a lot of lying in what he said.
CUOMO: Well, he's fundamentally standing up for a liar. As a man of alleged integrity, that's a tough spot.
LEMON: And a man of faith. He is standing up for a liar.
CUOMO: That -- this really wasn't touched.
LEMON: And he is repeating the liar's lies. And the nerve -- I kept saying I can't believe that Senator Harris is not pushing back, to say you're entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. And clearly, the facts were on her side and she didn't even say, like --
CUOMO: That's debating.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's debating.
I don't know that it's going to matter because you can have an up-and- down vote on Amy Coney Barrett, the judge, if one comes up, which seems very likely. So the rationale won't matter that much.
But if it does come up before the end of the election, the way they are weaponizing faith by saying that the Left is attacking faith is really interesting, to me, because it's not about -- Judge Barrett is a Catholic. OK?
I was raised in Catholicism, just as she. It's not that she's a Catholic that they're attacking.
It's that she holds her religion as a step-for-step guide in her behavior. Now I know she'll say I don't let my faith come in -- she belongs to an organization that makes you sign a covenant that has a whole set of standards for your existence, that is way beyond being a Catholic. But it's an interesting dynamic at play. And once again, I see the
Left always caught flatfooted by what's coming at them. Like, they don't see what's coming until it hits them. And then, they try to react. And that's going to be an interesting state of play.
For me, it was a metaphor of the debate tonight. Pence had the harder job. He did the harder job well. Harris had a ton of stuff to work with and she's a very adept debater. But when you have so much to work with, it's easier for people to be unsatisfied because they were -- there's so much that they wanted to hear.
LEMON: Yes, but I think the -- for me, it was -- I thought it was easy. I mean, when you have 210,000 people dead, I think your job is easy. I think what you said about judge Amy Coney Barrett, I think, is exactly right, when you talk about the group that she belongs to, not that you are attacking someone's faith.
But what the Republicans would say, if -- if the tables were turned is that, we're not doing that. We're just vetting her. And that's part of the process. This is a lifetime appointment. And so, you have to vet her, in every single way.
CUOMO: Also the irony --
LEMON: And that includes religion. That's not attacking someone.
CUOMO: And the irony is who is Mike Pence?
Mike Pence is a Christian, who sees Christian as a -- Christianity as a tool, to me, presumptively, punitively, as a tool for exclusion because he thinks you can pray gay away.
LEMON: Yes. Yes. And he, also, leans into the whole idea of being pro-life but then not saying they want to rush this through because they want another pro-life judge, not owning that.
CUOMO: And when asked, what would you want Indiana to do, where he was governor --
LEMON: Didn't answer.
CUOMO: -- if Roe v. Wade went away?
Because then, it becomes a state-by-state issue, right?
It's just about funding. And I know funding means everything and that if people don't have access and they can't pay, then they don't have the control over their own body the same way. They can't exercise their right. I understand the argument, very well. I'm saying that he wouldn't even answer.
LEMON: No, he won't because he knows where the -- the public opinion is on that. Most of the public believe that women should have a choice.
CUOMO: Smart guy. LEMON: But here's the thing. They make you think that it is -- that
it's a binary choice, right?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: One can -- one can not be in favor of abortion but still think that someone has the right to choose.
CUOMO: That's the genius in saying pro-abortion or anti-abortion. That's why it really should be reproductive rights. You are pro- or con- reproductive rights for women.
LEMON: I know a lot of Christians who say I don't think it would be my choice to do it. But I'm not -- that's not my body. I can't tell you what to do. As a man, I would think --
CUOMO: You don't know a lot of evangelical Christians who say that.
LEMON: No, not a lot. But -- no, I don't. But still, that's the way it should be.
CUOMO: I'd like to see how many people would say yes to the following question.
Are you pro-abortion?
Do you like abortions?
LEMON: I don't think anyone is pro-abortion.
CUOMO: Do you wish you can have an abortion?
LEMON: That's not the point.
CUOMO: But that's how it's framed.
[02:10:00]
CUOMO: That's how it's framed and that's why it's such an effective tool, that you could argue, doesn't have a big place in our politics.
LEMON: I think that another interesting part of this debate was when she -- when she talked about them being obsessed with overturning the record of Obama and Biden. Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Trump administration's perspective and approach to China has resulted in a loss of American lives, American jobs and America's standing.
There is a weird obsession that President Trump has had with getting rid of whatever accomplishment was achieved by President Obama and Vice President Biden. For example, they created, within the White House, an office that basically was responsible for monitoring pandemics. They got away -- they got rid of it. MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's not true.
HARRIS: There was a team of disease experts, that President Obama and Vice President Biden dispatched to China to monitor what is now predictable and what might happen. They pulled them out.
We, now, are looking at 210,000 Americans who have lost their lives.
Let's look at the job situation. We mentioned, before, the trade deal, the trade war, they wanted to call it, with China. It resulted in the loss of over 300 (sic) manufacturing jobs in a manufacturing recession and the American consumer paying thousands of dollars more for goods because of that failed war that they called it.
And let's talk about standing. Pew, a reputable research firm, has done an analysis that shows that leaders of all of our formally allied countries have now decided that they hold in greater esteem and respect Xi Jinping, the head of the Chinese Communist Party, than they do Donald Trump, the president of the United States, the commander in chief of the United States.
This is where we are, today, because of a failure of leadership by this administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was good. I think -- I think that was good, on her part. She -- she made the point. There was some foreign policy there. And I kept thinking as she was doing this -- and sometimes when the vice president was speaking, that more policy, in two minutes in this debate than we got in the entire 90 minutes last time.
CUOMO: A much better debate with two much better debaters. You know, this is unusual. You know, Trump is not a good debater. I know people say he is. No. He's a good arguer. That doesn't make you a good debater. Biden is not a particularly strong debater.
Why?
Well, it's about facility with language and quick recall and understanding how to break something down that is incisive and how to cherry-pick something that exposes a point you want to make. Easy to say. Not easy to do.
Harris, very good at it. Pence, very good at it.
When's the last time the two vice presidential candidates were clearly better at the stagecraft that people value most, for whatever reason, in a presidential election?
What does that tell you about where we're at?
LEMON: Was it Tomato, what's his name?
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Quayle?
LEMON: Dan Quayle.
CUOMO: Potato.
LEMON: Potato.
CUOMO: And we thought that was bad.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Now look where we are.
CUOMO(?): Yo-semite, where the Jews run free.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Thigh-land.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are we laughing?
LEMON: The fly in the room. Let's not talk about the fly. We'll talk about that later.
What was up with Mike Pence's eyes?
It's like he had pink eye.
CUOMO: I don't know. But I will tell you this. I will tell you this. Conjunctivitis is not really a huge cross index for coronavirus.
LEMON: Well, I'm not saying it was coronavirus. I was just noticing that he had -- I didn't know if he had pink eye.
CUOMO: He could have it for a million reasons. He could have rubbed his eye; he could have allergies.
LEMON: They were both eyes.
CUOMO: Was it both eyes?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I thought it was really just his left eye. But look. Again, the reason you can justify bringing it up is because we are swimming in a swamp of the unknown.
LEMON: You don't know.
CUOMO: With these guys when it comes to coronavirus. We don't even know if they were testing the president and they know we don't know and they won't tell us.
LEMON: And he admitted -- he said, at a press conference, that he was -- or he said, somewhere, that he was -- had been in the room with the -- with the president, earlier in the week, before the president tested positive for -- for coronavirus. I would be concerned. I don't know if I'd want to sit that close to him.
CUOMO: I hope he's getting tested every day.
LEMON: I do, too.
CUOMO: There are people in this country who are getting sick and dying because they don't have access to the right kinds of testing.
[02:15:00]
CUOMO: Our kids are being screwed because we will not come up with a plan for enough and proper testing. You have the access. You have the magic cure. I hope you avail yourselves of it and it'd be nice if you give it to your friends.
LEMON: They could have talked more about that. Possibly, you know, since there are two more debates or whatever, these debates could -- they could be theme-oriented debates, where you have one theme. It could be just COVID because we're dealing with it so much.
CUOMO: We're in the middle of a pandemic.
LEMON: But we have a lot to talk about. The vice president toeing the line, the president's line; same lies, different tone.
But what do voters think of what they heard tonight?
We'll talk about that.
CUOMO: Tone matters. If you are going to lie to me, be nice.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: Joe Biden has been very clear he will not raise taxes on anybody who makes less than $400,000 a year.
PENCE: He said he'll repeal the Trump tax cuts.
HARRIS: If you don't mind letting me finish, we can have a conversation.
PENCE: They are.
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: There are no more hurricanes today than there were 100 years ago.
SUSAN PAGE, "USA TODAY," DEBATE MODERATOR: Thank you --
PENCE: But many of the climate alarmists --
[02:20:00]
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: -- to use hurricanes and wild flyers (sic) to try and sell --
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: -- of a Green New Deal. And President Trump and I are always going to put American jobs and American workers first.
PAGE: Thank you.
PENCE: Joe Biden wants us to retrofit 4 million --
PAGE: Thank you, vice president.
PENCE: -- business buildings. It makes no sense, it will cost jobs. President Trump --
PAGE: Thank you, vice president. Thank you, vice president Pence.
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: President Trump has stood up and will continue to stand strong --
PAGE: Thank you, vice president Pence.
PENCE: We want to improve the relationship but we're going to level the playing field and we're going to hold --
(CROSSTALK)
PAGE: vice president Pence --
PENCE: -- for what they did to America with the coronavirus.
PAGE: Thank you. Thank you, vice president Pence.
PENCE: And when Qasem Soleimani was traveling to Baghdad --
PAGE: Thank you, vice president Pence.
PENCE: -- to harm Americans, President Donald Trump took him out --
PAGE: Thank you, vice president Pence.
PENCE: -- and America is safer. Our allies are safer. And the American people know president Donald Trump will never --
PAGE: Thank you, vice president Pence.
Thank you, vice president Pence.
Vice president Pence. You know, vice president Pence. I didn't -- vice president Pence, I did not -- excuse me.
(CROSSTALK)
PENCE: Susan, the American people deserve to know Joe Biden --
PAGE: Your campaigns agreed to the rules for tonight's debate with the Commission on Presidential Debates.
HARRIS: I'm so glad we went through a little history lesson. Let's do that a little more. In 1864 --
PENCE: Well, I'd like you to answer the question.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice president, I'm speaking. OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: So vice president Mike Pence and Senator Kamala Harris facing off, tonight, in the only V.P. debate of the 2020 race. A CNN poll of debate watchers finding 59 percent say Harris was the winner, while 38 percent say it was Pence.
Let's bring in, now, CNN political analysts Mark Preston, Toluse Olorunnipa.
Good evening, gentlemen. Or good morning.
Mark, that was not a good look for the vice president. But the thank you -- the moderator had to -- she tried to stop him from talking but he just steamrolled her.
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. You know, I felt bad for -- for Susan Page and, you know, Don, we talk about this after every debate now. You and I have worked on so many debates together, town halls and what have you.
And there's specific tools that you give your moderator to try to keep the train on the track. And I feel bad for Susan Page because I don't think she was actually given those tools, given the authority to try to shut things down.
There's so much controversy, of course, what we saw how Donald Trump acted last week that the commission tried to at least put guardrails on it. But they were -- there were really no guardrails on that.
And quite frankly, we didn't see a debate tonight, right?
We can all acknowledge that. We just saw a list of statements, given by both Mike Pence and Kamala Harris.
LEMON: Yes. Yes. I think you're right about that. And you're right about those tools for getting people and if you -- if you practice them and you have them in front of you, you can easily get people to stop talking. Well, one good way is to cut their mikes, though, so maybe they should consider that.
But Toluse, listen, Pence has the same statements as Trump. He pushes the same lies about the coronavirus, he repeats the same lies of the president. He just does it, in a different tone.
Do voters -- do they -- do they -- what do they get out of it?
And do they see through it?
TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you're right. Pence definitely had message discipline. I mean, he was going to get his points out, even if it meant interrupting the moderator, even if it meant, you know, ignoring various cues to stop.
And he pushed those points out and he did it with a demeanor that's much more calm and less chaotic than President Trump. He was less of a whirlwind.
But they are the same points and the points are, it's hard to spin your way out of a pandemic; 210,000 people are dead. Millions of people have caught this disease. The economy, you know, has continued to only slowly recover from millions of jobs that have been lost. And people can't send their kids to school.
So they're watching television, they are seeing the vice president try to sort of calmly talk about all the great things that President Trump has done. And the people who are watching it know that their own lives have been impacted.
They know the president just got out of the hospital for not following the right public health guidelines and catching this disease. So it's hard to really try to spin your way through talking points out of this issue that the country is facing.
It's a -- it's a global pandemic but America has been hit particularly hard. And it's a scar on their record. And as much as they try to put out positive statistics and spin things with positive language, it just doesn't strike home for the people who are suffering through this and who are seeing their own lives impacted.
So it's a hard message that he tries to push. He probably did the best that you probably can, given the failures of this administration and the difficulty of defending it. But at the end of the day, the American people see what's going on with their own lives. And it's going to be hard for them to --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: I'm glad you bring that up because I want to --
And if you guys in the control room, if I can get the sound bite about health care that Kamala Harris made about coming for you.
[02:25:00]
LEMON: Because I want to ask Mark if that stuff -- Because, Mark, you know, Kamala Harris kept going back to health care.
She kept pivoting, throughout many of her responses, even if the -- obviously, the debate moderator didn't ask her about it. But she kept asking, you know, she kept saying they're coming for you. They're coming for you. They're coming for you. If you have a preexisting condition and so on.
Did that stick?
PRESTON: Well, we don't know if it stuck right now. But I will tell you, I do think it was an effective, going back to the tool -- using the world tool, it was an effective political tool for Kamala Harris to use.
And the reason being is right now we have more than 210,000 people in the United States who have died of COVID. We have so many people unemployed now. When you lose your job, you often lose your health insurance.
So think about all the people out there who not only cannot pay their mortgage or their car payment or are trying to educate their children and juggle all of this. And look where we are now.
So I do think that she was effective in selling the idea that Republicans don't have a plan for health care. And all they are going to do is try to come and get it from you. We will see what happens over the next couple of days.
But it's really a message they have been hammering home since the beginning of the campaign. Now it'll be interesting to see what happens the next couple of weeks, if health care continues to dominate or do we just go right back to COVID and the response to the administration?
That's what this election hangs on in the end.
LEMON: We hear that for the Biden campaign is really happy about her getting that point across, looking right into the camera. Here is that moment, Toluse, and I'll get you to respond.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: On the other hand, you have Donald Trump, who has reigned over a recession that is being compared to the Great Depression. On the one hand, you have Joe Biden, who was responsible, with President Barack Obama, for the Affordable Care Act.
If you have a pre-existing condition -- heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer -- they are coming for you. If you love someone who has a pre-existing condition, they are coming for you. If you are under the age of 26 on your parents' coverage, they are coming for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Toluse, as they say, how did that play in Peoria? OLORUNNIPA: It's clear they are trying to run the 2018 playbook that was so successful for Democrats a couple of years ago. They want this election to be about health care, about the coronavirus, about President Trump's very unpopular approach to the presidency.
And you can see Senator Harris punching at that issue over and over again. Vice president Pence did not have much of an answer, you heard him respond, saying, me and president Trump have a strong and comprehensive health care plan.
And then he quickly pivoted right in the next sentence to talking about fracking or something that was completely different. He did not explain his health care plan that the public has been waiting for, for the better part of 3 years. And they know in their Republican circles that this is a tough issue for them, this is an issue where they don't have much answers.
And that's part of the reason Vice President Biden and Senator Harris have been punching very hard on health care, they know this is an issue that Democrats are stronger on and there's not much of an answer from the Republican side yet.
LEMON: Mark, the election less than 4 weeks away and the latest Electoral College outlook shows Biden crossing the 270 threshold. But everyone else, we all remember 2016.
This is my conversation with Chris every single day, who is going to win, what do you think?
And we all have 2016 PTSD.
PRESTON: OK, Wednesday after the election of 2016, I remember being on air at about 2 o'clock in the afternoon, Don, and I looked straight into the camera and I said, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa, I was wrong. We were all wrong. We didn't read the American public right.
I don't know if that is the case this time but I will say this. One thing we have learned from 2016 is that you can't expect what's going to happen today will happen tomorrow. So Donald Trump, even though he is down by a significant amount in some very key states, the fact is there still is four weeks left. He could make up that ground.
LEMON: All right, thank you gentlemen. I will see you soon, get some sleep. We are right behind you.
Dirty 30.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: We are down to the dirty 30.
CUOMO: I'm loving it. This is the hope for the journalist, is to be relevant during important times. And this is a big deal. I know people say it every election cycle; I don't feel that every election cycle.
LEMON: No, no, no; this is a big deal. The reelection of the first Black president, OK, most people --
CUOMO: Big deal.
LEMON: -- well, the election was a big deal. Reelecting was not as big a deal but I think most people -- well, he served 2 terms. But I think you are right. We always say this is the election of a lifetime.
[02:30:00]
LEMON: But, no, this one is the election.
CUOMO: This is a big election because it's not about the two guys. It's really about the choice for the country. It's more of a selection than an election because they have two very different -- they represent two very different ideas about what this country is and can be. So it's a big deal.
LEMON: If we're going to believe in science.
CUOMO: You heard Pence tonight. There are no more hurricanes now than there were 100 years ago. Intensity, my brother. Intensity is what you are concerned about with climate change.
LEMON: But that's debating.
CUOMO: Huh?
LEMON: That's debating.
CUOMO: That is true.
LEMON: As you would say.
CUOMO: Don't use my line.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Much more to come; 26 days, can you believe, until Election Day?
And the attorney general Bill Barr allowing federal prosecutors to announce voter fraud investigations close to Election Day. I'm going to tell you why he is changing the longstanding policy and what it means for you and your vote. That's next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CUOMO: All right. Now this is about why the election matters. The Justice Department is changing a decades-long policy that will, now, allow federal prosecutors to announce investigations of allegations of voter fraud, during the election cycle.
[02:35:00]
CUOMO: What's this all about?
I'm going to ask Ben Ginsberg, Ben, a friend of mine, going to help us understand this. Been following Ben for a long time, famous for the 2000 election litigation, hanging chads.
Is it right to recount?
Who has the right to control elections?
Won that one big at the Supreme Court.
Good to have you now, sir.
BEN GINSBERG, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Thanks. Nice to be with you, Chris.
CUOMO: So the normal rule about investigations by the DOJ, during the election season, is...?
GINSBERG: Don't do it. You don't want the Justice Department impacting the election. That's why, what James Comey did, four years ago, struck sort of a bad chord for interference by the political folks at Justice.
CUOMO: Sure did seem self-serving, didn't it?
That he had to write that letter because it was on his conscience. You know, it was really about his job, not his conscience. He got that mixed up.
So ordinarily, you don't say anything because the guideline in the investigation manual is basically semblance of impropriety. You don't even want people to think it's relevant in the process. Now they're changing it.
How?
And to what effect, in your opinion?
GINSBERG: I think that you have to look at it in the context of the president talking about fraudulent and rigged elections and how the only way they can cheat is -- the only way they can win is if they cheat.
And so, if this is a weaponization of the Justice Department, to help try and prove the theories he's been unable to prove so far, then, it's -- then, it's worrisome.
If these are decisions that are made by career prosecutors because there is evidence of something amiss in the Postal Service or the military and the delivery of ballots and it truly is a nonpolitical decision by career prosecutors, then, knowing that they're out there can help credential the accuracy of the elections.
So it's really who -- who gave this order?
Was it career people?
Or was it political people?
And is it going to be implemented by political people or career people?
CUOMO: Well, let's -- let's stipulate, for the point of the discussion, that it could be done without political influence. We've seen almost no evidence of that, especially in this particular DOJ.
And let's go to the even if argument, counselor, which is, even if it was done because there are legitimate issues that career prosecutors find, well, that was always the assumption. And yet, the rule was, you still don't do it because of prejudicial value.
So is that a good enough rationale to change the rule?
GINSBERG: Well, I'm not sure that it is. Again, that's why there needs to be more reporting about what the motivation was.
I mean, if, a week before the election, you saw people going into a drop box and removing ballots or stuffing ballots, you would not want either federal or state officials to stand by. You would want something done about that cheating.
So in and of itself, you -- you sort of have to be really on guard, giving the administration's rhetoric, unproven rhetoric, about fraudulent and rigged election.
But on the other hand, if there is someone tampering with ballots through the Postal Service or the military in the delivery of ballots, you do want to do something about it.
CUOMO: But, last question on this, Counselor. Even if that were to happen, it seems to assume that they would have no recourse in their investigation, except to make it public.
But they have the courts. If they find evidence of actual fraud and actionable fraud, they go, they get an injunction. Everybody finds out about it because it's in a public forum. This I -- this just smells bad. And I understand why you're giving it the benefit of due deliberation for more reporting. But they're not going to tell us.
GINSBERG: Well, don't get me wrong on this. What -- what the Justice Department did with the nine absentee ballots in Pennsylvania last week was the wrong way to proceed. That should not have been a public announcement.
On the other hand, if they do find evidence of a -- of a crime and file papers in court about it, it then becomes public. And it is using the -- the proper mechanism to stop infractions.
But if this is a sign that the Justice Department is going to double down on that Pennsylvania strategy, of making more public announcements than actual filing of charges, that's very wrong and should be -- and should be guarded against.
CUOMO: And given the prejudicial value of the first instance, I think the burden shifts.
[02:40:00]
CUOMO: And they have to give us comfort that this isn't what it looks like.
I have to tell you, you are a real mensch. Thank you, at this time in the morning, from Washington, D.C., being a friend to the show. I appreciate it. You have a lot of currency with people on both sides of the aisle. Your voice matters. Thank you, Counselor.
GINSBERG: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right. Let's bring in CNN senior political analysts, Ron Brownstein, Kirsten Powers and CNN political analyst April Ryan.
How you guys all doing?
APRIL RYAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Fine.
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Great.
LEMON: Don't lie. You're all asleep. I know it.
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Early for me.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Some lackluster answers.
LEMON: How you doing?
I'm fine.
CUOMO: So let me discuss something with you guys that got a little bit short shrift earlier in this show. You know, it's the nice thing about having a two-hour show. We can take second bites at the apple.
Kamala Harris, Kirsten, and this idea, and it's great to have you and April for this, not that I don't love you, Professor.
But the idea that, you know, she had to abide by the rules. It's a woman. And the only worst thing to be in this society than a woman is a woman of color. So you know, she's got to dance that dance. Got to be careful. Couldn't really come at him the way she wanted to.
I am saddened by that because, functionally, I am the reason that it exists, is a problem, right?
It's not some of you will hate on each other but it's really men that create this -- this standard of what women are supposed to be. And it's dangerous and it's sad, especially as somebody who was raised by women and loves his daughters. But did you think that was going on, Kirsten?
And then, April, please, follow on this.
Did you think that was going on with Kamala's strategy tonight?
POWERS: I can't say, for sure. But you know, my best guess would be yes because, as a woman, you know, I know this -- this firsthand. And I think, you know, watching other women in the public eye and seeing how they are treated -- and actually it's not just men who do it. Women hold women to different standards also.
And so -- and you're right. If it's -- if it's a woman of color, then it's an even -- an even higher standard. And so, I think that she had to be very careful about not seeming too aggressive. And actually, she could -- she really nailed it, in my book. I thought she had the strength and she seemed presidential.
But she was very warm. It's just such a hard thing to pull off, you know, as a woman. But I do feel like she did that. And I don't think she could be as pugilistic as we saw her be, frankly, in the presidential debates. I don't think it worked as well and I think, especially as a vice presidential candidate, I think this was the tone she had to strike.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK, let me jump in here, April, and read.
CUOMO: What are you doing, your taxes?
LEMON: No, I'm not. There's a reason -- there is a reason I'm doing this because I'm going back to find things people are saying.
CUOMO: We'll listen whenever you want.
LEMON: How could anyone be married to Kamala Harris?
CUOMO: Now her husband wrote that.
Do you think that's weird that he would put that?
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: No, I'm kidding. Look, there is a lot of hate out there.
LEMON: Someone else says, "Kamala Harris comes off as such an insufferable, lying B. Sorry, it's just true."
So does that factor?
Does that make the point or no -- April.
RYAN: So let's -- let's -- let's get into the weeds of this. Kamala Harris does not take tea for the fever. Let's put that there. But she had to understand, going into this, there is a double standard. She did not want to be perceived as not just the angry woman but the angry Black woman. OK?
There is a double standard. And we, also, saw it tonight with our friend, Susan Page, the moderator. If she came out against vice president Pence, she would've been perceived as the words that you were just saying about Kamala Harris. She had to be careful as well.
And it's a double standard. And I think back four years ago, with Hillary Clinton, when she and Donald Trump were on that stage. And I remember that night and you all remember it as well, when Donald Trump followed her on that stage and she told me, not long after the debates.
She said, April, you know, I know what people would've said if I would've turned around. She said, trust me, I wanted to. She said but I could not.
Because what would've been said the next day?
The same words that you're saying about Kamala Harris. Kamala Harris has more of a problem because she is a woman of color. She is a Black woman. And the spotlight is more so on her. And it's unfortunate, in 2020, you have people saying, how dare she go after vice president Pence because of his stature?
No, it's about race and it's about gender and we are still in that moment in 2020.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But April, I think some people wanted that from her. But I, also, think that it's -- it is -- it is race and it's -- listen. You're a woman. You guys know better than I. I, also, think is -- there's a first thing to it. She is the first.
And so, you know, that's what do no harm is. If you're -- if you're the first at anything, you don't want to screw it up. You want to make sure you get through it.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: Let's talk about first. Let's talk about the real first, Shirley Chisholm, the late Shirley Chisholm, who ran for president, Black woman, in 1972.
[02:45:00]
RYAN: She said -- she said, being Black and a woman is a double whammy. And it showed tonight. Kamala Harris was strong. I believe she won.
But she had to hold back. I mean -- and she had to smile throughout. And I know just -- if someone lies on me or twists my words, it's hard to smile through it and seem like you're really OK with it.
But yet, ready to come for the sucker punch or the punch, if you will. At the end of the day, Shirley Chisholm is right. Being Black and a woman is a double whammy.
CUOMO: So the reason I ridiculous what's said about her online is because that's what it deserves. You know, you have to cheapen it. You have to laugh at it because it takes away the power of it; at least, we hope.
And just as an editorial point, stepping out of the role of journalist, I'm happy that my daughters get to see her and get to see women like you two, frankly. I mean, you guys are fire and ice. But I love that that is the spectrum of empowerment.
LEMON: Which one is fire?
Which one's ice?
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Put it this way. April Ryan, every time she hits me, I see it coming.
Kirsten, when she says something to me, I kind of like fall in half after four steps I've walked away. I thought -- I thought it was fine. All of a sudden, my head falls off.
LEMON: What is Ron Brownstein?
CUOMO: Ron Brownstein?
He just always emails me later and says, everything you said was wrong.
But I think we're moving in the right direction, you know?
We're allowing people to see what the reality can be and not just the promise. So that's a beautiful thing for me. Now --
POWERS: Yes, but Chris, if you -- if you -- if you look at Michelle Obama's speech during the Democratic convention, there were people, you know, over at FOX saying -- referring to her as an angry Black woman, which is just preposterous, right?
If you look at the speech she gave, there was nothing angry about it. And so, that's what Kamala Harris is dealing with.
CUOMO: A hundred percent.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: But remember, though, they do it because it works. OK?
That's why Pence, tonight, immediately, steps from the KKK, which is an organization, where everyone in it is dispositively, demonstrably and putatively bad and says but you got to own the riots, where, in no reckoning, can you say that everyone who is on those streets is a rioter.
Riots are wrong. Everybody knows that. But the equation is, because it works. But wait. Let's bring in Ron.
Ron, in terms of who had to check which boxes tonight, how did it line up for you?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I didn't think Harris was as deferential as --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He's frozen.
BROWNSTEIN: -- I'm sorry. Yes. I don't think she was nearly as deferential as some of the commentary that said she had to pull punches because of race and gender suggests. I mean, I thought she made the points and, you know, particularly, on COVID.
(INAUDIBLE) at the beginning. And there were critical moments where Pence would not (INAUDIBLE) answer the questions.
Two, above all, that are highly relevant. He could not answer how President Trump would protect people with pre-existing conditions if the Supreme Court strikes down the ACA. And that's because there -- there is no Republican plan that does so. It's not a bug in the Republican (INAUDIBLE), it's a feature.
The way they lower costs for the healthy is to expose those who have pre-existing conditions to greater risk and cost.
And then, second, on --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: There's not a bug in the plan. There was a bug on his head.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWNSTEIN: Oh, yes. It's true. There's a bug on his head.
And both of them related to the same issue that is now going to be dominating the news next week, which is Amy Coney Barrett's nomination. So I guess, each of them did, you know, pretty much what you expected them to do. But they did it in a race where Joe Biden is now leading by, you know, somewhere around 10 points, nationally and ahead --
LEMON: Uh-oh. Well, we got to -- he froze. We got to go.
BROWNSTEIN: -- as well as Georgia and maybe Ohio.
LEMON: Yes.
There he is. We're done.
All right. Thank you, all. I appreciate it.
CUOMO: And I meant what I said.
LEMON: And he says what he means, sometimes.
Coronavirus cases rising all across this country, after months of decline. Yet, the president, who has coronavirus, wants to get back on the campaign trail. Stay with us.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:50:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
LEMON: A top adviser telling CNN that the president is eager to get back on the campaign trail just days after being hospitalized for the coronavirus. But there are a lot of questions about whether he is still contagious and there is a lot we don't know about his diagnosis and his treatment. Let's speak now to Dr. Larry Brilliant. He is an epidemiologist and a CNN medical analyst.
Good to see you, sir.
How you doing?
DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Hello, Don. Nice to see you.
LEMON: Let's talk about this memo from the White House which says the doctor says that Trump tested negative for antibodies last Thursday night but then tested positive for them on Monday.
What gives here?
Are those antibodies present because of the treatment he got?
BRILLIANT: I would imagine so. I mean, usually you don't develop neutralizing antibodies that show you have some immunity for a couple of weeks after you have first shown symptoms. And let's just walk this back. There is something wrong with the entire timetable.
LEMON: That's what I was going to ask you. You said weeks after you've shown symptoms.
You think he was positive for longer than they're letting on to?
BRILLIANT: You know, there is something wrong here. The only reason that they would be so reluctant to say when was his last negative test, what was the cadence of testing, was that, is it possible that he was shedding virus and infectious during the debate?
And if that's the case, did he know that?
And is this the kind of a man who would now go out on the campaign trail and willingly and knowingly infect others just in order to be back on the campaign trail?
Surely that couldn't be the case.
You don't suspect that, Don, do you?
LEMON: I would hope not. I mean, listen, Chris has dealt with it. Obviously you.
CUOMO: I want to know --
LEMON: Do you think he was possibly shedding virus at the debate?
CUOMO: Yes.
Possibly?
Absolutely.
Probably?
I don't know. I'd have to see the testing data and the history of testing.
[02:55:00]
CUOMO: I also want to know if it's IgM antibodies or IgG.
Doctor, explain the difference and why it would be a relevant distinction.
BRILLIANT: And not just whether it's IgG or IgM, because they come in at different times. That's the reason you're trying to find out the cadence of it. They're kind of orchestrated as to which one comes first and how much after the infection.
But not only what the antibody is but what the quantity is and whether it is in fact a neutralizing antibody, which means is it the antibody that will confer immunity?
Otherwise, we're just playing games. And on top of that, of course, he had a monoclonal antibody treatment. So he could just be reflecting the borrowed antibodies that he has from the treatment.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: How can anybody believe the president's test results after the way that they handled the situation?
BRILLIANT: Yes, I think that's the right question.
CUOMO: Although careful, because then you give them a reason not to put them out. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
BRILLIANT: No, no, I don't think that's the case at all. I think we all really want to know. Really, we don't want him to be sick.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: He is sick.
BRILLIANT: We want to understand what happened because, right now one of the largest outbreaks of coronavirus in the world is in the White House. One of the most important hot spots for coronavirus is in the White House.
And we want to know, not only for the sake of the president but everybody who has been exposed to him and any number of the appearances that he has made, have a right to know if they should be talking to their doctor, if they should be trying to get treated, how often they should be tested, if they should be staying away from hugging their loved ones.
It is unethical for that information to be held back from people who have been in contact with an infectious disease.
LEMON: Do we know the effects of the drugs that he's taken, that it would have on him physically and mentally?
Because he put out a rambling video. He tweets crazy stuff all the time. But could that --
CUOMO: That's him now.
LEMON: Uh-oh, he is calling Dr. Brilliant.
CUOMO: Now you're going get it, Brilliant.
BRILLIANT: That's it. He is calling me right now.
How did you know?
Excuse me, Don, just a second.
CUOMO: Special ring.
BRILLIANT: You're not talking the remdesivir, you're not talking about the monoclonal antibodies. You're talking about the corticosteroid. You know, I've treated people with Decadron when I was in clinical medicine. And it's a very powerful --
(CROSSTALK)
BRILLIANT: I'm really trying. I'm really trying.
LEMON: Sorry.
BRILLIANT: It's a very powerful steroid. And it does strange things. I mean, you have heard of roid rage, steroid rage. I saw his face very flushed, a color that I haven't seen when he was on the steps of the White House.
He was breathing very heavily, having a lot of difficulty in catching his breath. And yet he had more animation and was more aggressive than even Donald Trump usually is. I would be worried that -- excuse me one second. LEMON: We can hear you, don't worry.
CUOMO: How smart can this guy be if he can't even figure out how to turn off his phone?
You're going to have to change your name, Dr. Brilliant.
BRILLIANT: Whoever is calling me is getting me into trouble. I can tell.
LEMON: It's probably CNN wondering if you're going to be on in the next hour. But go on.
BRILLIANT: It's late at night here, you understand that.
LEMON: Sure.
BRILLIANT: No, I think that there is no question that he might be infectious. There is no question that he might be having an effect of the steroids. There is no question that having a monoclonal antibody messes up your testing.
But I think we -- more importantly than all of that, we need to know when was his last negative test?
What was the cadence of testing?
We're not going to get mad at him at this point if he didn't get tested every day. But let's know what the test results are of the test that he's had so we can do contact tracing, which the White House has not --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Doctor, we have less than a minute here. And quickly, if you can answer.
Saying what you said, given what you said, should he be on the debate stage next week with Joe Biden?
BRILLIANT: No, he should be isolated. And we should be calling in CDC and these world class epidemiologists, who spent their life preparing for doing an outbreak investigation of the complexity of this one. Bring them in. Let them do their job and let the chips fall where they may.
LEMON: Thank you, Dr. Average -- I mean Dr. Brilliant.
BRILLIANT: Ooh.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: That was Chris saying that. Thanks, Dr. Brilliant.
BRILLIANT: Yes, yes, yes, I won't say anything about lemons.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: I appreciate that. We'll see you soon.
So we already did the theme to, you know, what is it, "All in the Family."
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: We're going to have plenty of time --
LEMON: "I'm so glad we had this time together" --
CUOMO: And what do you do, you pull the ear?
LEMON: "Just to have a laugh or sing a song. Seems we just get started and before you know it, comes the time we have to say -- "
CUOMO: "So long."
LEMON: "So long."
CUOMO: Thank you for watching, our friends.
