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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Global Town Hall: Coronavirus Facts And Fears; Country Grapples With W.H. COVID Cluster As Case Counts Rise Nationwide; More Than 160 Schools In NYC Hotspots To Close; Europe In Second Wave Of Coronavirus; Five Former CDC Directors On The U.S. Coronavirus Response. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired October 10, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: I'll be back tomorrow. See you tomorrow.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome, I'm Anderson Cooper.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta. This is our 22nd CNN Global Town Hall, Coronavirus Facts and Fears.
COOPER: Since our last time together, COVID has torn through the White House. It's infected the President's closest advisers, the First Lady and the President himself. We've seen people close to the President become ill, some of them seriously ill as we've heard that the President's doctors and spokespeople, we've heard what they've said, we've seen them refused to answer basic questions about the President's own illness, something the public and everyone exposed to him certainly has a right to know.
GUPTA: Yes. And, Anderson, in that respect, everything has changed. In most other ways, however, the contours of this outbreak have stayed alarmingly constant. And I say alarmingly, because upwards of 40,000 people are newly infected every day. On average, most -- many days this past week, 600 or 700 people have died. And researchers from the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation project that those tragic daily death counts could more than triple going into the winter.
COOPER: And, Sanjay, with the death toll now well over 200,000 people in this country, the President continues to flout the guidelines from his own experts, from the nation's experts that could save tens of thousands of lives. This is literally life or death information.
Which is why tonight for much of the hour, we'll be joined by five former heads of the CDC, Dr. Tom Frieden, Dr. Richard Besser, Dr. Julie Gerberding, Dr. Jeffrey Koplan, and Dr. David Satcher.
GUPTA: They're going to be taking your questions. A lot of you have sent them in in video form, you can see them up on the screen there. And we're going to get to as many as we can tonight. COOPER: And beyond your questions for us. We ask one of you, do you trust the CDC for COVID-19 information? Why or why not? Leave a comment on our Facebook page or tweet your answer to us with the #CNN TOWNHALL. We'll feature some of your answers a bit later on in the hour.
We also have reports from across the country and around the world, including New York where parents of kids in the nation's biggest public school system in this country are right now feeling torn, and in the dark has COVID clusters pop up where they live. We'll talk about all that with our experts and with you. First, here's the big picture.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): We're now seven months into the pandemic and more than 1 million people worldwide have died from the coronavirus. More than 210,000 of those deaths are in the U.S. With flu season now underway, public health officials are emphasizing the need to wear masks and avoid crowds, where they warn the death toll could rise significantly over the next few months.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: The models tell us that if we do not do the kinds of things that we're talking about in the cold of the fall in the winter, we could have from 300,000 to 400,000 deaths. That would be just so tragic if that happens.
COOPER (voice-over): Case counts are again going in the wrong direction in much of the country. And new outbreaks mean that in some places restrictions are being put back into place.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: COVID isn't tired. The virus isn't tired, the virus still energetic and strong enough to kill you.
COOPER (voice-over): There is continued progress on vaccines and treatments. Public health officials say they expect to know by late November or December if a vaccine is viable, and not to expect widespread distribution until sometime next year. For now, and even when a vaccine is available, it's important that we all protect others by wearing a mask. Right now, it's estimated that less than half of Americans are doing so.
DR. CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH, METRICS AND EVALUATION: We have a tremendous amount of control over what actually happens by how we behave, how much risk we take in terms of interacting with others, and most importantly wearing a mask. And that can make a huge difference to the death toll.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And stunning we're in this situation, fewer than half of Americans are routinely wearing masks outside in areas where they should or inside. So, given all that, Sanjay, what do you make of where we are right now? GUPTA: Well, it's worrisome, Anderson, as we go into the fall. I mean, the number of people who continue to become infected, but also the significant erosion of trust and belief in science. A Pew Research poll earlier this year found that most people had a fairly positive view of doctors and scientists, 74 percent of people held their doctors in a favorable light. 68 percent felt the same way about research scientists.
In fact, up until recently, confidence in scientists and researchers had actually been growing. But what we know now in this pandemic is how quickly that trust can erode. In fact, four in 10 Americans now believe institutions like the CDC and the FDA are looking to politics not just a science, and that's having a very direct impact. Only about half the public says they are now willing to get vaccinated.
The politicalization of this pandemic also led to the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine to weigh in on this calling the pandemic response a tragedy, saying truth is neither liberal nor conservative when it comes to the response to the largest public health crisis of our time.
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Our current political leaders have demonstrated that they are dangerously incompetent, we should not have bet them and enable the deaths of thousands of more Americans by allowing them to keep their jobs. That was from the New England Journal of Medicine. Dr. William Foege, who has been credited with the eradicating smallpox globally called on the current CDC Director, Dr. Robert Redfield to orchestrate his own firing.
As physicians, we promise to do no harm which makes this pandemic all the more devastating. We need to regain the trust of the public because the loss of that trust is going to have ramifications, Anderson, far beyond this pandemic.
COOPER: Yes. As we said at the top, with new COVID clusters popping up, parents who've already agonized over sending their kids to school are now facing even more strain and some of those schools shut back down. Nowhere is this hitting home harder than in New York, home to the nation's biggest public school system.
Joining us with more than that is Athena Jones. So, what's the status of in-person learning in New York City?
ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. Well, it's going on for elementary school students. But we already have, at this point, in neighborhoods where there has been a surge in new coronavirus infections. More than 150, almost 170 schools have been closed because of restrictions of the mayor along with the governor are putting in place to try to get a handle on those new infections.
There were about 100 -- a little over 100 schools that were closed earlier this week, they only added to that list as the week progressed. And we know that they're keeping a very close eye on infection rates in these 20 clusters with -- between zip codes where they're seeing these COVID clusters. And we want to point out that these infection rates are so important because the mayor has said if the seven-day rate of infection goes to 3 percent or higher, Mayor de Blasio has said he's going to shut down all schools in New York.
And so, you have these more than 150 schools in the New York City area. You also have all schools in two areas in Orange County, which is in upstate New York, another area where we're seeing more a rise in COVID cases, those schools will also be closed, because the positivity rate is so high. And the schools, as you mentioned, are being closed for a two week period. Anderson?
GUPTA: You know, Athena, I got to tell you, this is topic number one in our household. I have three preteen and teen girls. How do things look in the rest of the country, is there some way to describe where things stand and other communities that are seeing hotspots?
JONES: Well, sure. And I should mention that the rest of New York, New York State has a positivity rate of just over 1 percent. If you take out these 20 clustered zip codes, if you add them that those zip codes have a rate of almost 6 percent. But, really, if you look across the country, the picture is not looking so good. It's certainly not looking as good as it did this time last month.
There are a lot of numbers we can go through, they change on a daily basis. But we can tell you, the seven-day rolling average of new COVID infections is over 40,000 that is heading in the wrong direction. And when you do kind of just a month by month comparison to give a sense of where things stand as compared to last month. In September, the entire month of September, there were only three days in which the nation reported more than 50,000 new COVID infections in a single day.
We'll already in October, we've seen -- we've matched that that three days for the entire month of September. And I should also note that during the first week of October, the U.S. is added about 40,000 more cases, than they added -- than the country added in the first week of September. So that gives you a little bit of a sense. And when it comes to areas that are a real concern, we're talking about Idaho, Wisconsin, South Dakota, Iowa, Kansas, these are places with a seven- day, a COVID test positivity rate is 15 percent as high as 24 percent in Idaho.
So, you're going to see hospitalizations following and even the COVID tracking project has been talking about having to look out for hospitalizations on the rise in places like Wisconsin.
COOPER: Yes, Athena Jones. Athena, thanks very much.
Now, Europe, where cases are spiking in a number of places across the map in Europe. CNN's Chief International Anchor Christiane Amanpour joins us now from London. A lot of European countries were lauded for getting hold of this early on, what happened?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, I think what happened was summer and was the easing of lockdown. And that's when confusion set in, you know, government started to give differing advices, people were allowed to go here, there and everywhere. And then all of a sudden, particularly, towards the end of the summer, when colleges and schools started reopening, that increased the number of cases.
So the WHO, the World Health Organization said late this week that they saw globally the biggest single day rise in cases, some more than 300,000 around the world in one day. We've had the same here in the U.K. in recent weeks. And in France at the end of this week, the single biggest rise in one 24-hour period. So, it's a situation where, clearly, when you ease lockdown and rules and advice is conflicting and people have fatigue, that is pretty much the situation.
[21:10:10]
What it is, is in clusters around many parts of these countries, but everybody's very concerned, obviously, about the cold weather and what might happen.
GUPTA: And is it particularly difficult to contain the virus, Christiane, because each of these governments sort of has a different plan and different restrictions in place?
AMANPOUR: Well, that is true to an extent. That is absolutely true, but even within governments. I mean, here's the U.K., there are four different governments operating, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland, and each of them have some differing regulation. So, nobody's quite sure who says what and when, and whether they can travel here and there.
And that is one of the things I was talking about with the Global Health chief at Emory University, who's done a study that's in The Lancet right now, comparing Europe and the West with, for instance, Asia in terms of easing lockdown. And she said, it's not brain surgery. It's still about testing, you know, isolating, contact tracing. Can you imagine all these months later, no country has still got a good grip on that, except for in Asia?
COOPER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: It's still about restricting movement between countries, because we've seen here lots of movement, holidays, business travel, receding, reinfecting. And then, of course, the voluntary measures, keep the masks on, be careful inside, keep social distance. These measures actually work, not many people are doing it.
COOPER: Yes, you look at a country like Taiwan, they are doing great and have been --
AMANPOUR: Yes.
COOPER: -- you know, we were at one point on the same trajectory as them and, obviously, it's a completely other world. Are -- In Europe, I mean, are people wearing masks? Are they respecting measures to contain the virus?
AMANPOUR: Look, it just depends where. Again, it's so almost ad hoc, there is a whole group of people who wear a mask. I wear a mask whenever I leave the house, and now inside when there are a lot of people. But I can tell you that occasionally, more often than not, people look at me as if I was nuts.
Even though there are legal requirements, or rather, it is the law in this country on paying of fine to wear a mask in public transport. That means on the subway, on the buses, et cetera, not everybody's doing that. In fact, even when somebody asks their fellow passengers to do that, that creates a big, practically a fight. So, it's really, you know, it's very, very difficult.
COOPER: Christiane Amanpour, thanks so much.
More now on where this is heading here at home, how much worse it may get, but also how easy it can be to save tens of thousands of lives just by wearing a mask in the months ahead.
Joining us now is COVID forecaster Chris Murray, Director of the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. Dr. Murray, you've been crunching data on this pandemic since the very beginning. What do you expect for cases, as we get deeper and deeper into the fall and winter?
CHRIS MURRAY, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON'S INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS AND EVALUATION: Well, we're expecting both cases, and unfortunately, deaths to really surge as we head into late November and December, and probably peak sometime in January.
COOPER: And when you say peak, what do you -- what is the projection of lives potentially lost by January?
MURRAY: Well, we are now running our forecasts out to February 1st as of this week, and we're expecting, you know, just under 400,000 deaths by February 1st. And with, you know, the daily peak really hitting a high point in the middle of January.
GUPTA: You know, Dr. Murray, you've said a few times and people have paid attention these models that if we did have near universal mask wearing, you know, 100,000 lives could potentially be saved. We're not getting there, as you know, we've been talking about this for months. But I'm curious, is it incremental? I mean, or is it more of an all or nothing thing? What if we are at 70 percent or 80 percent? What if we get better, but not perfect?
MURRAY: You know, it's almost a straight-line relationship. So, every little bit of increased mass squaring is going to save lives. You know, I think we get an extra bonus, if you will, if everybody's wearing a mask, because we can really put the brakes on transmission in some states particularly. But every increment makes a difference.
And we saw that in the summer. You know, we saw some of the peaks in Florida and Arizona, Texas. Part of the peaks were because people started wearing masks more.
COOPER: HHS Secretary Alex Azar and the doctor that the President seems to be listening to most of late the radiologists, Dr. Scott Atlas. They met with several scientists this week who are advocates of herd immunity. I know your team has looked into the whole idea of herd immunity and what that might actually look like in this country if we chose that path. What did you find?
MURRAY: Well, we're going to be really clear what we mean by herd immunity because there's two ways people use the term.
[21:15:04]
One, is, you know, how many people have to be infected or vaccinated before we, you know, stop transmission. And the other one is, is a strategy. And as a strategy, it simply means doing nothing and letting the virus run through the population. But that's a recipe for just an awful lot of deaths in the country.
COOPER: Can you just explain it? So, it's 40 percent herd immunity, if that's 40 percent of the population had had COVID, we would have 815,000 deaths basically double. If it was 60 percent, it would be more than -- it'd be 1,200,000 plus.
MURRAY: Yes, and we can make these calculations because we know pretty well from the surveys about antibodies, we know pretty well what the death rate is by age. And so, we can take that death rate by age, how many people would have to be infected before you get to herd immunity and make those calculations. So, it's pretty disturbing, because even the most optimistic view, let's say, you know, as you said, 40 percent, it suggests we're not very far along in the epidemic yet in the United States.
GUPTA: You know, it's interesting, Dr. Murray, because Alex Azar, he was sort of referring to this meeting, where the plan or the strategy was -- that you insulate the vulnerable people, right, which is about 40 percent of the population based on age and pre-existing conditions. Insulate them, but go ahead and let schools open, for example, making the case that young people could essentially become our herd, I guess, of protection around the more vulnerable.
That's -- you're hearing that a lot. And I think that's what Secretary Azar was referring to. Is that have the same problems that you're describing?
MURRAY: Well, you know, in a theoretical world, where everybody who's vulnerable, you know, everybody over age 65, people with comorbidities, don't come into contact with everybody else. Maybe that would be possible, but that's not what we see in any country. What happens is, when there's a lot of transmission, like we saw in Florida, in younger people in early July, it eventually gets in to the people at home, the parents, you know, older friends. And that's when we start to see the deaths take up.
And so, you really can't isolate people that way. And no society so far has successfully done that. And we don't expect that to occur.
GUPTA: And do you expect, because, you know, if you do the math, you say about 10 percent of the country, roughly based on these antibody studies have been infected. And 200,000 people have died, 210,000 people. If it's 60 percent, that's the 1.2 million number you're talking about. But we are getting better at taking care of patients, though, right? I mean, do you expect that sort of death rate to be the same going forward?
MURRAY: You know, Sanjay, that's an absolutely critical question. Because every clinician that I know, and certainly the ones you've been speaking to think that treatment protocols are better. You know, dexamethasone, remdesivir, the way we oxygenate, but we've been looking now for weeks in the data to see proof that that's the case. And that would be, for example, comparing, you know, antibody survey prevalence to deaths, and seeing that the number of deaths per infection is down, but we can't yet see that.
So, it's possible, it's true. But we're having a hard time finding in U.S. data, real evidence of that, but it would make a big difference. And, of course, there's new therapies that may come as well. But, nevertheless, you know, we have to recognize that there's a -- unless we, you know, have some major breakthrough, there's a lot of deaths still to come, unfortunately.
COOPER: Yes, more than -- about more than -- about double what we are currently at, if those estimates hold up. Chris Murray, I appreciate you being with us. Thank you. Sobering.
Coming up next, your questions and arrays (ph) for a very distinguished group, five former directors of the CDC, that are more when our CNN Global Town Hall continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:23:06]
COOPER: At the top of the program, we asked you the question, do you trust the CDC for COVID-19 information? Why or why not? We're going to feature some of your answers on our social media wall.
GUPTA: You know, Anderson, as I mentioned earlier, trust in our scientific institutions is being undermined, in some cases under pressure, even under fire from the President himself. So, for that reason, any opportunity to re-establish that trust and remind people how institutions like the CDC have earned that trust over the years is so welcome.
COOPER: Yes. And so important, which is why we're very happy to have five former CDC directors representing the Obama Clinton and George W. Bush administrations here to answer your questions. Dr. Tom Frieden is with us, former Acting Director, Dr. Richard Besser, Dr. Julie Gerberding, whose company Merck is advancing two vaccine candidates, as well as potential antiviral treatment, Dr. Jeffrey Koplan and Dr. David Satcher, who is also served as Surgeon General of the United States. We appreciate all of you being with us.
Dr. Besser, let me start with you. We are seven months into this pandemic, still no coordinated federal response plan. There are no daily CDC briefings that the public gets to see. You lead the response to H1N1 pandemic. If you were CDC director right now, what message would you try to be hammering home to this administration and the President?
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: You know, I think what I would lead with, Anderson, is that the models that predict 300,000, 400,000 cases going forward aren't a crystal ball. And what we do matters and if we follow the lead of public health, if we follow the lead of CDC, and do the things that are working around the globe, in terms of wearing masks and social distancing, and washing hands and investigating cases and ensuring people have what they need to isolate and quarantine, that we can have a very different trajectory.
And we can get this under control, but we have to have this led by public health and the political messaging and the public health messaging have to be one in the same.
[21:25:02]
GUPTA: And that Dr. Frieden, let me pick up right there because the projections we've all heard Dr. Fauci predicted that the United States could see as many as 400,000 deaths by winter. We're heading in the wrong direction. You know, we talk a lot about the, you know, either you have to open the economy, shut the economy, you say that's a false choice. We're clearly not wearing masks right now.
Is it becoming inevitable? I mean, if we're not going to wear masks, we're not going to do these other things. It's been seven months. What do you think is going to really make a difference at this point?
DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Well, the only thing that's really inevitable is what's going to happen in the next couple of weeks. And from the infections that have already occurred, we will see something like 20,000 deaths, by the end of the month, additional deaths. Anytime we ignore, minimize or underestimate this virus, we do so at our peril and peril of people whose lives depend on us.
We still have within ourselves, within our communities, within our society, the ability to turn this around. And if you look around the world, the parts of the world and even the parts of the U.S. that have been guided by public health and have supported public health have done better. They've had fewer deaths, less economic dislocation, their kids are getting back to school in person. So we can still make a big difference. But we have to recognize one key thing, we are really all in this together. And all of us are affected by what any of us do.
GUPTA: And I think that's such an important point. I mean, there's real time around the world examples of what could work here for certain. Dr. Satcher, it's good to see you, welcome. As I mentioned earlier, we saw this letter from former CDC Director William Foege to Dr. Robert Redfield. His advice to him was to essentially get himself fired by what he says laying out of all the facts in a letter to all of his employees.
You know, I raised this because of this issue of trust. I mean, I think we're going to hear a lot of the same public health strategies. But in terms of regaining that trust, when you see a letter, hear about a letter like this from Dr. Foege, as a former CDC Director yourself, what do you make of this advice? Is that a strategy to start to regain trust?
DR. DAVID SATCHER, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Well, I guess I recently, quote, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. who said over 50 years ago, that a person is really not fit to live until he finds something for which he is willing to die. Now, maybe that's a little extreme. But I think the point is, we have to be clear about what we stand for and we have to prioritize in terms of the work that we do.
So, I think what Bill Foege was saying was that, people should know that our priority is to make sure that we communicate the best available science to the American people. I've traveled all over the world as director of the CDC and then Surgeon General. And I've been consistently impressed with the extent to which people trust the CDC. It's amazing. And I think that's because the CDC has had people like Foege, and the other directors who are joining us today, who have really been strong supporters of the best available science, and often generated the best available science.
COOPER: Dr. Koplan, there's so much misinformation going out there. And, you know, most recently, you know, the President several days ago said, don't be afraid of COVID, don't let it dominate your life. I've talked to a lot of people who have lost loved ones who found that very upsetting and thoughtless. But just in terms of fearing COVID-19, should we fear this virus?
DR. JEFFREY KOPLAN, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: Absolutely. And there are 210,000 people who've passed away who hopefully needed to have in different circumstances. And I think, you know, to the previous point that new leadership within CDC, that's possible. But if your bosses, if the people up the chain of command aren't supporting you, if the people up the chain of command are spreading false information, belittling important news and actions that need to be taken, it doesn't work.
So, as Dr. Frieden said and others, this is doable, we can do something about it. We can start right now and should have and in some parts of the country, the appropriate things are being done. But when you're working against -- your leadership is working against you and this virus, the virus has an ally that makes it a pretty strong contender for further destruction.
[21:30:05]
GUPTA: Dr. Besser, let me let me stay with this theme. As we mentioned at the top, we've asked viewers the question tonight, do you trust the CDC for COVID-19 information? Why or why not? The majority, unfortunately, so far have said, no. One viewer tweeted, "I feel the integrity of the CDC has been compromised by the scoffing lackadaisical attitude of the current administration, under any other administration, yes, absolutely, now, no." That was one tweet.
So you hear that. I know, you've heard this before, Rich. I mean, how concerned are you now that this erosion of trust is going to last? And how will the CDC get that trust back? Do you think in your mind?
BESSER: Yeah, you know, it cuts to the core when you read things like that, but it's understandable when you see instance after instance, of political interference in CDC's work. I think it can be regained. You know, I think if there was an approach going forward, where CDC was allowed to lead, where it was clear that there was a firewall between the work CDC was doing and the political level that would be attainable.
And, you know, as Dr. Gerberding was saying, there are thousands and thousands of scientists, professionals at CDC, who continue to do great work. And they're putting it out. You can see this work in the MMWR.
You can see it in other places. But when you have to filter it, and you're not sure exactly which items are coming forward, that are pure public health guidance, and which ones have had the political fingerprints on them, then it's really challenging. It's much easier to maintain trust than it is to regain it once you've lost it and maintaining that trust requires ongoing daily communication from the scientists and CDC directly to the public.
COOPER: Dr. Frieden, in terms of vaccines, the HHS Secretary Alex Azar projects that the U.S. will have enough vaccine for, what he said, was every American who wants one by March or April of 2021.
Do you think that's a realistic timeline? Because I think he was standing by right next to President Trump when President Trump said, you know, anybody who wants to test can get a test. Is that a realistic timeline on this vaccine?
FRIEDEN: Well, let's be clear. We don't yet know whether we are going to have a vaccine that's safe and effective. The studies haven't been completed yet. We're guardedly optimistic, because it looks like there's a strong immune reaction. And there are many different vaccines being tried and the trials are progressing.
But for a vaccine to actually work, it's got to not only be safe and effective, but also be accessible and trusted. And that's why it's so important that it not get politicized. And to not be seen as from any political party or political figure, vaccines are already an area where there's a lot of suspicion, a lot of rumor.
And so we need to be completely transparent about the information we need to see vaccines go through the standard procedures. They can go through them very quickly. But they need to go through all of the standard procedures, no cutting corners on safety.
Given all that, if there is a vaccine, they are manufacturing, if they do work out, if they are safe and effective, yes, we could have hundreds of millions of doses in the first quarter or two of next year. But that doesn't mean they're going to be in people's arms. You have to work with state and local governments, with providers, with communities, you have to address concerns. It's a big job to get vaccine out there.
And remember, even with vaccine, there's no fairytale ending to this pandemic. We have to chip away at the risk, even with a vaccine. Suppose it's 75% effective, which would be great. And suppose 75 or 70% of people take it, that's still only half of people being protected. We're still going to need to adjust our lives, reduce risk by wearing mask, not shaking hands, reducing risky indoor gatherings, we have to chip away at that risk so we can get to a new normal as soon as safely as possible.
GUPTA: And Dr. Gerberding, you know, I mean, if you look at the numbers right now, from the latest CNN poll, they say about half the country, 51% of Americans said they would get a coronavirus vaccine once it became available. That number is actually dropped as you probably know over the last few months. You were a couple of different hats. I mean, you were CDC director, but now at Merck. How do you think the CDC should combat that misinformation about a vaccine once it is ready?
DR. JULIE GERBERDING, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: I think others have sort of put this into perspective it is about regaining trust and trust depends first and foremost, I'm telling the truth, even when it's hard.
[21:35:03]
One of the things I learned during my tenure and Jeff certainly saw during the 9/11 attacks is that Americans can tolerate really tough truth, but it has to come from reliable and credible sources. And I think the other thing is consistency. One of the reasons that we have so much anxiety among the Americans is because they're hearing different things from different political leaders. We haven't consolidated and cascaded the messages from reliable sources.
We've kind of have a free for all, where everyone can invent their own interpretation of the truth. So if we want people to have trust in the vaccines, we have to tell them what we're doing and why we have to explain how we're managing the safety and the efficacy evaluation. We need to prepare them for whatever side effects we might realistically expect to occur. And then we have to keep them informed as we go forward.
It's kind of the basics of risk communication, but it comes now why we're in the deficit of trust. So it is going to be very difficult to crawl back into a situation where people believe that we really do have their best interest at heart.
The good news is that science is on our side. There are more than 700 products and pipelines for treatment and prevention of COVID. So we have to be guardedly optimistic, as Thom said about what the future might hold. And at the same time, that isn't a panacea. We've got a lot of work ahead of us.
COOPER: Dr. Satcher, vaccine companies haven't recruited a sufficient number of African American and Latino participants, as I understand it to enroll in clinical trials. How concerning is that? And what might it mean down the line?
SATCHER: I think is quite concerning, because obviously, African Americans and other persons of color are at greater risk for some of the serious complications of this disease. So I think it's very concerning if African Americans are not sufficiently represented in the trials. So we're working very hard to try to change that.
And, you know, obviously, we can look back and say, well, it was the Tuskegee study, and people still mentioned that. But we've got to find a way. We've got to find a way to get past a distrust and to really get the kind of representation that we need in trials so that we're very comfortable when we are to the point of using the vaccines.
COOPER: And Dr. Koplan, when a vaccine does finally emerge, and it's distributed, people will still need to wear masks, won't they? I mean, I know the point has been made, but this isn't, it does not just disappear.
Koplan: No, and as Dr. Frieden illustrated with the numbers of how effective the vaccine may be, and how many people might take it, no, I think that the idea that we can just throw everything away and don't need those masks are the other actions we've been taking and go back to an earlier era of how we live is highly unlikely.
Also, I think that the expectations for delivery and in immunologic power of the vaccine, we be have to be careful and not create too fanciful a notion of what those are going to be. I am reminded of 40 years ago with the identification of the organism that caused HIV. The HIV organism that caused AIDS at the announcement of that identification of the then Secretary of HHS, said well, we'll have a vaccine for this in a year. That was 40 years ago?
COOPER: Everyone standby we have to take a short break. When our CNN Global Town Hall continues, we'll have questions from our viewers and more answers from all the former directors of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:42:57]
COOPER: And welcome back this special edition of our CNN Global Town Hall. We're fortunate to have five former directors at the CDC on hand to help us navigate this complex and difficult public health crisis.
GUPTA: And a reminder on our social media wall, you're going to see questions that people are asking. You can tweet us as well your questions with the #CNN Town Hall. You can also leave a comment on the CNN Facebook page.
COOPER: And with us to answer those questions, Dr. Thom Frieden, Dr. Richard Besser, Dr. Julie Gerberding, Dr. Jeffrey Koplan, and Dr. David Satcher. So let's get right to them.
Kate, Katie in Idaho sent in this video, let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE SHAIRE, SUBSTITUTE TEACHER: Hi, my question is, would you or do you send your kids to school right now, given the current numbers and trends? And what's your reasoning? Thanks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Let's do it, just if we can, let's do a show of hands with all of you. Can you raise your hand if you would send your kids to school right now?
Interesting. Yeah, let's see. Dr. Koplan, you didn't raise your hand? Why?
KOPLAN: Because you didn't give me any other options in that one. I think it's -- and I don't think it's as easy as what you're going to do right now. It depends where do you live? What the school district is doing? What's going on the community around the schools, what steps the schools have taken to safeguard the children, staff and teachers that are there so that's why I was reluctant to just give you hand (ph) answer.
COOPER: There's no one size fits all it? That's why it's always in debates. It's always terrible when they ask people to raise their hands because it's obviously much more complex than that. Dr. Besser, you did raise your hand. What's the calculation for you? What should parents be looking at in trying to decide?
BESSER: Yeah, so my kids are older. They're in their 20s so they're not in school. So it's more of a mental exercise. But I'm a pediatrician and I know the critical importance of kids being in school learning in a safe environment. I happen to live in a community that's very well off, that has resources that's been able to adapt the schools to ensure that there's good airflow, that there's additional staff to screen children, staff and teachers to -- staff to be able to do cleaning, this good connection to public health, so if there's a case that can be investigated and controlled.
[21:45:25]
But I volunteer in a in a clinic in Trenton, which is very nearby, it's in the same county, but it's a much lower income community, largely black and brown children. It doesn't have the same resources as in Princeton. And, you know, if my children are going to school there, I might think differently.
And, you know, this is one of those critical things to talk about that the experience for all children in our country is not the same. The color of your skin and the wealth of the community you live in, I can have a big impact in terms of the safety for children going back to school, you know, as well as what we've been talking about Dr. Satcher raised in terms of risk of disease, severe and severe outcome. So I feel very fortunate in the community I live in.
GUPTA: Dr. Frieden, we got another question. This one comes from Rongwu (ph) sent from Virginia, which reads, "How would you respond to those who think COVID-19 is not that dangerous after seeing President Trump out of the hospital just two days after testing positive and continuing to play down the severity?" What do you say, Dr. Frieden?
FRIEDEN: I think we have to get past false dichotomies. It's not the case that this is the worst thing ever, or that it's overblown. The fact is that for kids, it's usually a mild illness, similar to mild to moderate influenza. But for many other people, it's quite deadly. And because it's so infectious, there have been more than 7 million diagnosed cases. But almost certainly there have actually been more than 40 million people infected by this virus in the U.S.
And that's why there have been well over 200,000 deaths. The death rate is a fact. And it's a tragedy. And we need not to get hardened to the reality that these are health care workers. These are mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters, and it's going on every day. We are having 1000 more deaths.
And next month, we're going to have 20,000 more deaths in the U.S. But we can turn this around if we understand that it's a matter of learning how to do one thing, right, which is, follow the science, be guided by the facts. Tell people what we know when we know it, work together, recognize we are all connected.
You may not get sick at all from this, but you may spread it to someone who then dies or spreads it to someone else who dies. And that's why we all have to recognize that we're in this together. There's only one enemy, and that's the virus.
GUPTA: And Dr. Satcher, Amelia in Illinois sent in this video. Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMELIA DUNN, BUSINESS DEVEOPLEMENT COORDINATOR: If the U.S. implements measures to control the spread of COVID, will we be able to get it under control now? Or have we passed the point of no return? And what measures need to be implemented immediately?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: And Dr. Satcher, I think a lot of these public health measures have been mentioned things that need to be done. But I do -- we do hear this question a lot. Are we at this point of no return? I mean, you know, there's already this awful tragedy that's already happened and happening. But are we at this point where it's going to be difficult to turn things around?
SATCHER: Well, it might be difficult, but I don't think we're at a point of no return. I think we have to continue to pursue. And we are pursuing some very important things as it relates to new vaccines. And there's a lot of hope there that we're going to be able to come up with a vaccine that really make a difference.
So I think we should still be hopeful. But I think we should also be very busy working to create the counter vaccine that will be most likely to be effective in preventing the spread of this virus. I think there's a lot of hope, based on history. And so I think we just need to keep working.
COOPER: Dr. Gerberding, this is a question Nancy sent in from Utah reads, "What supplements do you recommend people take to keep their immune system strong during the pandemic?" GERBERDING: I don't recommend specific supplements. But I do think that the old fashion, good advice that grandma gave about trying to eat a healthy diet, get a lot of sleep, and believe it or not exercise which helps our well-being in all kinds of ways. Those are really the foundations to trying to stay healthy. And that is something that, you know, in my opinion is a far more practical approach than trying to second guess the value of specific supplements.
[21:50:04]
GUPTA: And vitamin D only if you have a deficiency because there's a lot of questions that come in about vitamin D.
GERBERDING: Yeah vitamin D is one of those vitamins where if you do have a low level, it definitely can be important to get your levels back up to normal range. But people often take way more vitamin D than they need, and that can bring its own side effects.
GUPTA: Dr. Besser, we have another question. This one's from Tiffany. This comes from Massachusetts. And it reads, "How reliable are the self-administered shallow nasal swabs? My University is using them as a way to test students, staff faculty for COVID-19?" What about it Dr. Besser? Because, you know, people heard about those deep swabs and nasal pharyngeal swabs, now there's these shallow swabs as effective in terms of actually finding the virus?
BESSER: You know, Sanjay, I haven't seen data doing a comparison. I know that a lot of institutions are initially trying those with medical observation. So they'll have students come in, and they'll have somebody there who knows how it should be done properly, observing how it's done. And I think that that's probably a better way to go. So that someone is in that way, learning how to do it effectively. You know, some of these tests, these antigen tests are very useful if they're used frequently, but are not so useful if they're used with long periods of time in between.
COOPER: Dr. Frieden, Casey in Wisconsin, sent in this question region part, "Can you please explain the 6% statement about deaths that came out, 6% of death certificates only had COVID listed on them. It's caused a lot of misunderstanding among many, and it has people thinking that the death numbers we see that only 6% actually died from COVID." Dr. Frieden.
FRIEDEN: So if you die from cancer, and you also have diabetes, you still died from cancer. If you died from COVID, and you also had diabetes, you died from COVID. COVID does affect older people much, much more than younger people. And many older people have lots of other health problems. So that ends up on the death certificate.
Remember, the people on the death certificates, who are counted, their doctor said they died from COVID. That's why they're counted. But the best way to look at this is actually a statistic called excess mortality, deaths above baseline. And that's actually quite a bit higher. So the true total of this, which includes COVID, and COVID associated is well over a quarter of a million deaths in the U.S. so far. COOPER: And why is that number higher, because you're saying the actual death count, it's under counting people who have died with COVID?
FRIEDEN: That's right, what we see is basically three types. One is people who died from COVID, and were diagnosed with it, people who died from COVID, but weren't diagnosed from it because there wasn't testing. It wasn't suspected. They died at home. And people who have died because of the disruption that COVID causes, and we are seeing some people who are not getting care for heart attacks.
And that is an additional cause of the death. But there's no doubt that this is a deadly virus, particularly for older people and people with underlying health conditions, such as diabetes, lung disease, serious heart disease.
GUPTA: Dr. Koplan, we got another question. This one's from Jim in California, who wants to know, "How confident are you that the federal and state governments will maintain the appropriate level of urgency in planning and preparing for a potential next pandemic when this one has passed? Is there too much politics in disease control for it to be effective? A lot in there, Dr. Koplan, but what do you think?
KOPLAN: No, there is politics and disease control. And accepted, we it's part and parcel of public health. Public Health is a community based, population-based activity, emphasis on prevention and politics is a part of that. We get our budgets from appropriated from Congress, the states to and communities to. There has to be interplay in partnership between a receptive and intelligent political group and the science of public health as well.
I think this is certainly a wake-up call, although we've had them before. But this is one in which I would very much hope that we see stronger state and local health departments working with a stronger CDC that there is a particularly more attention paid to an up to date, surveillance system, early detection of problems and then approaches towards ameliorating them from, at the state local level and federal level.
We've had a terrific system for decades and it's been amazing proved upon. But in the last, say 1010 years, it's been difficult to get some of those improvements that we've seen possible through the major efforts in Silicon Valley and other places. There's different ways to get information, different information that can be useful.
[21:55:21]
So I think once we get through this and then take advantage of learning from what we've seen and how it's operated, that we can create structures and procedures and methodologies that enable us to do a better job.
COOPER: I would hope so. Everyone, stick around. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Before we go, we want to thank all our guests, Dr. Tom Frieden, Dr. Richard Besser, Dr. Julie Gerberding, Dr. Jeffrey Koplan, and Dr. David Satcher, all former directors at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. We really appreciate your time and your expertise. Thank you so much.
We hope tonight that we've helped with your answers to your questions about the pandemic. Also we want to thank all those who wrote in with questions and to everyone who joined us tonight. If you didn't get your question answered, tonight the conversation continues @cnn.com/coronavirusanswers.
GUPTA: Yeah, and there's one more thing you should also know and that's how you can help more information on that. You can go to cnn.com/impact. Anderson, good to be with you tonight.
COOPER: Sanjay as always. The news continues now on CNN.
