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CNN Live Event/Special
Final Trump-Biden Debate In Nashville, Tennessee. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired October 22, 2020 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:02]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And we are just an hour away from the final debate between President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden. It is a last chance to reach millions of voters at one time with just 12 days left until the election.
It is debate night in America. I am Anderson Cooper.
We will soon find out if this debate is anything like the first chaotic Trump-Biden face off. Their 90-minute rematch is happening at Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee with an unprecedented rule in place.
Each candidate's microphone will be muted during his opponent's initial answers. See how much that actually deters the President from constantly interrupting as he did last time.
Tonight is the final of what may be the wildest presidential debate series ever including the cancellation of the second debate after the President's COVID-19 diagnosis.
As always, Wolf Blitzer is here as we countdown to the debate. Wolf, the President's illness escalated concern certainly about safety in this debate tonight.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: It certainly did, Anderson. We don't know if President Trump already was infected at the last debate, but the White House says he did test negative tonight as did Joe Biden.
Viewers will still see social distancing on the stage. President Trump will stand at the podium to the left of your TV screen. He will be more than 12 feet away from former Vice President Biden who will be standing to the right.
Plexiglas barriers had been installed between the candidates earlier for added protection, but both candidates agreed to take them down after Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden tested negative.
Tonight's moderator is Kristen Welker of NBC News. She will be seated over 16 feet away from the two candidates.
When the debate gets underway, we are told President Trump will get the first question that will be the first test of the new microphone rule. At the start of every new topic, when one candidate is giving his first two-minute answer, the other candidate will be muted.
These are the topics chosen by the moderator: fighting COVID-19, American families, race in America, as well as climate change, national security and leadership.
We're covering every moment of this debate as well as voter reaction. Daniel Dale is standing by to fact check the candidates. Gary Tuchman is with some undecided North Carolina voters who will be watching the debate. David Chalian will bring us the first word on who won from a CNN instant poll.
But let's check in with our correspondents covering the campaigns. First, Jim Acosta, what are you hearing from the President's campaign adviser?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, campaign advisers tell me they now believe it was a huge mistake for President Trump to cancel on last week's debate making a breakout moment, a must tonight, to shake up this race.
One adviser said the President needs a quote "leadership moment" at the debate as Biden is now seen as the frontrunner heading into the final stretch of this campaign. The President is expected to raise some topics that he has struggled to inject into the mainstream news cycle.
Asked whether the President missed an opportunity to do just that last week, because he canceled on that debate, one adviser wrote back in all caps, yes -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, standby. I want to go to Arlette Saenz. She is also covering the Biden campaign for us. Arlette, what are you learning about the former Vice President's strategy?
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, Joe Biden's messaging for the past few months has been incredibly consistent focusing on the coronavirus pandemic, and the economy as he has tried to turn this election into a referendum on President Trump's handling of the crisis. Those are two issues he will hammer away at again tonight.
And it's a contrast to the President who has thrown many lines of attack at Joe Biden's way justifying something that will stick. Now, one of the challenges for Biden tonight will be to not get bogged down in the directions that President Trump might try to take this debate.
That is something his advisers have prepared him for as he has gotten ready for this debate, and one tactic that Biden is likely to employ again tonight that he used in that first debate is looking directly into camera as he tries to make his case to voters.
The Biden campaign feels like this is something that really broke through with people that as he was trying to make his case and he will do again tonight in these waning days of the election.
BLITZER: We will see how that goes, all right, Arlette, thank you very much.
Jeff Zeleny has some new reporting for us. Jeff, it's not only the presidential candidates that have a big stake in tonight's debate.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's not just the race for the White House that has some Republicans anxious tonight. It's also their attempt to hold on to their majority in the U.S. Senate. And after that first debate, there certainly was a lot of heartburn from senators who were locked in key races across the country.
Since then, we've seen a few of them gently step away and distance themselves from the President. I am told that if tonight's debate is a repeat of the first one, we will see several more Republican senators likely do that as well as Republican senators potentially beginning to make the argument that look, a Joe Biden potential presidency would need a Republican Senate to be a check on him.
So of course, Republicans are hoping the President has a strong performance tonight, but Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell I'm told has also advised his senators to do whatever they have to do to try and win their races. So Wolf, it is, of course, the race for the presidency that's on the line, but as well, Republicans trying to hold the U.S. Senate.
[20:05:06]
BLITZER: Yes, that is critically, critically important. All right, Jeff, thanks very much.
Let's check in with Jake Tapper. Jake, this is truly a historic night.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Big night, Wolf. Big night and Dana and Abby, one of the things that I'm wondering about with so much at stake is who is left to convince? Most Americans have made up their minds according to polls.
There are, however, still undecided voters, and still soft Trump supporters and soft Biden supporters. So I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that Donald Trump's base, he's got them.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
TAPPER: He's got the base.
BASH: I don't think it's so far out there on a limb.
TAPPER: So if he goes out there tonight, and does the whole Breitbart, FOX, China, Hunter babble that most Americans and certainly the Americans who have not made up their mind yet, have no idea what he is talking about, I don't think that's going to convince anybody.
BASH: I agree. Have no idea what he is talking about and don't care. Because what they care about is a deadly pandemic. What they care about is the fact that maybe they lost their job, or they are trying to deal with their kids learning at home, or anything else that has a real world effect on their life, not some question about perhaps something having to do with his opponent's child which may or may not have happened.
I mean, you know, maybe in some other times when we're all in prosperity and health, but not now. And that is what I'm hearing from the President's advisers over and over again. He has got to focus on the issues that people care about. It is a sliver of people, maybe who are undecided. But this might be decided on the margins.
TAPPER: He just need enough in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I do think though the strategy, as they see it is a little bit different. It's not so much about changing people's minds about Trump and making him seem better. It's actually potentially a turnout depressor, particularly for people who might be tempted to vote for Joe Biden.
Remember, four years ago, around this time, this is the same basic argument they were making against Hillary Clinton. Effectively, this Hunter Biden argument is a redoux of that, and it was a way of sort of bringing down her positives, bringing up her negatives. The problem, though, is that that has been so hard for them to do when it comes to Biden.
Biden has been consistently much more popular than the President, and these attacks are not breaking through. And it could be because people feel like they've seen this movie before. That this was the play that was made against Clinton four years ago, and it's not clear to me that it's working.
TAPPER: Right. And it was also a play that was made after, you know, 40 years of attacks on Hillary Clinton since 1991.
PHILLIP: It doesn't fit for Biden, with people's just sort of gut perception of him. That's just something that is hard to turn around in the last couple of months of a campaign. People feel like in some ways, they know who Joe Biden is as a guy and a person who they might want to go get a drink with or what have you.
They don't think of him in the same way as they might have thought about Hillary Clinton for better or worse.
BASH: You're exactly right. The President is as I was just talking to one of his allies before coming on, he says he keeps running the 2016 campaign and it is 2020. Not only does it not work as well, for him, because it's Joe Biden and not Hillary Clinton. It's because he has been President for four years.
The country knows him. They know what he is good at, and what he is not good at and he hasn't laid out a clear vision for what he would do in a second term. These are people who like him and want him to win, who are saying this, because they're so sick of telling him what they think he needs to do, and he just isn't listening.
TAPPER: Let's talk about Biden here for a second. What does he need to do to use a basketball analogy? I think UNC's four corners offense is what they need to do. He just needs to hold the ball as long as possible and not make any mistakes and run out the clock. Right? I mean, that's basically -- that's basically what he needs to do. It is just not screw it up.
BASH: Not mess it up. Do no harm is what I'm hearing from people who are close to Joe Biden, which is why he practiced a lot this past week. And he is not, just you know, taking this for granted and is not just kind of winging it.
First of all, that's just not his style, but also because he understands that the stakes are so high, he has to know exactly what his moves are going to be very different from Donald Trump.
TAPPER: But can I say something, Abby, and tell me what you think. I think it's more that first of all, he is not a great debater, Joe Biden. He didn't win the last debate. It's just that Donald Trump, you know, went on stage and set himself on fire.
Second of all, he can get rattled very easily. Any of us who have covered him as Vice President or as a senator on Capitol Hill, you challenge his integrity or the integrity of anyone in his family, and he can go wild.
PHILLIP: Right. Well, I think this is why your basketball analogy. This is kind of like putting a bull in the middle of the basketball court and having him just completely run wild. It's not going to be as simple as just Joe Biden trying to kind of keep the ball up in the air.
He is dealing with a really unpredictable situation and the President is going to be coming after him really hard.
I think it's going to take a lot more than simply just trying to dodge the President. He is going to have to have a real strategy to push back and to defend himself against some of these accusations.
[20:10:21]
TAPPER: All right, coming up, we'll take you inside the candidate's debate preparations. How will they deal with the moments when their microphones are muted? We have some new reporting on that. That's next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We're back with our special coverage of Debate Night in America. You are looking at live pictures coming in from inside the Debate Hall. You see everybody wearing masks in contrast to what we saw during that first debate.
The President and the former Vice President are facing something new tonight, periods of time when their microphones will actually be muted. Let's bring back Dana Bash.
Dana, this new rule is designed to avoid a repeat of the first Trump- Biden brawl as it turned out to be. What are you learning about the candidates' preparations?
BASH: Well, their prep for this final debate couldn't be more different, Wolf. Joe Biden is once again traditional and Donald Trump says no.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice over): Aaron Burrs' advice to Alexander Hamilton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Talk less
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Smile more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): It sums up with sources close to the President tell CNN he is hearing about tonight's debate. Less this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: They will under my proposal.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not what you've said and it is not what you --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): More this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: It would create an additional $1 trillion in economic growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TRUMP: There are a lot of people that say let him talk because he loses his train. He loses his mind, frankly.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): But that's what Trump advisers told him before the first debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLYANNE CONWAY, FORMER COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: My last piece of advice to the President, which I shared with him directly and I shared with him before the first debate, let Biden speak.
BIDEN: I am in favor of law, you follow a little bit of order.
TRUMP: Are you in favor of law and order?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): This time, team Trump hopes he will listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONWAY: Joe Biden in some places and spaces during that first debate was just about to say something that is out of touch with the American people. And so my argument is let him finish his sentence.
JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think that Joe Biden was incredibly powerful in the Town Hall last week, because he wasn't interrupted, because he could talk about his plans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): The new debate rule muting candidates' microphones at the start of each segment intended to rein in Trump concerns some Biden allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (on camera): What do you think about the mute button?
GRANHOLM: You know, I worry about the mute button a little bit. It doesn't mean that Donald Trump is not going to be over there talking and if we can't hear him talking, but Joe Biden can. That's still disruptive, you know, for Joe Biden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): CNN is told that Biden has been practicing not getting distracted if that happens again with Trump's stand in, Bob Bauer, constantly interrupting Biden during mock debates this week.
As for the President --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What am I doing to prepare? I'm doing this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): He abandoned semi-structured sessions in the White House map room before the first debate, instead preparing in small doses with a few aides on the road between rallies where he works on his arguments with the help of his crowds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: If you vote for Biden, he will surrender your jobs to China.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BASH (voice over): Longtime adviser, Kellyanne Conway, who helped
prep Trump for debate number one says, success, this time would be talking about promises kept from renegotiating trade deals to cutting taxes and adding some levity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONWAY: He can say, you know what, Joe, in my second term, I promise in my second term, I'll tweet less, but you have to tax less. Are you willing to make that -- are you willing to make that promise right here and now?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): Biden is working to replicate moments that broke through like talking directly to camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: You folks at home, you folks living in Scranton and Claymont and all the small towns and working class towns in America. How will you do it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): Jennifer Granholm who helped Biden in past debate prep sessions says he is best when he stays true to his brand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (on camera): Was there a moment watching the debate last time as somebody who has prepped Joe Biden in the past when you said, "Oh no, don't do that."
GRANHOLM: The only thing that I had a question about was him calling him a clown. Because it was calling somebody a name.
TRUMP: Some people don't --
BIDEN: Well, here is --
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS CHANNEL ANCHOR: Go ahead. You have -- wait a minute, you get the final word, Mr. Biden.
BIDEN: Well, it is hard to get any word in with this clown. Excuse me, this person.
TRUMP: Hey let me just --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH (voice over): Biden himself later called that a mistake, one he'll try to avoid repeating.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I did get frustrated and I should have said this is a clownish undertaking instead of calling him a clown.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: As for Trump's unprecedented attacks on tonight's moderator, Kristen Welker, Kellyanne Conway told me she thinks Welker is one of the hardest working members of the White House Press Corps, and unlike the former boss, she still advises, predicts that Welker will be quote, "very fair."
Conway added, it is not just a female moderator, it is the President speaking to America's women -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Yes, Kristen Welker is an excellent, excellent journalist and a very, very nice person at the same time and I know you agree with me, Dana.
BASH: I do.
BLITZER: Everybody agrees. All right, one of the big questions tonight. How much will this debate really matter, especially for the President, as he looks for a boost with only 12 days left? John King is back with us. John put the stakes for this debate in perspective.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the President comes in trailing double digits to the national polls. Let's go back through history.
Forty years of history to show if this President can come back in this race that would be a comeback of historic proportions. Let's go back to 1980. Ronald Reagan, the challenger versus the incumbent President Jimmy Carter a long time ago, right?
Ronald Reagan came into the final debate with a slight lead or tie. Call that what you will, but a tie. Ronald Reagan would go on to win. Ten points he gained, 10 points Ronald Reagan gained from the final debate to Election Day. That is what Donald Trump needs to match. Ten points right there. That's back in time to 1980.
Let's fast forward 1988, then Vice President George H.W. Bush against Michael Dukakis. Vice President Bush came in with a six-point lead, on Election Day, he won by seven points. Not much change between the final debate and Election Day in that campaign.
In 1992, you remember it well, Wolf, this the three-way race with Ross Perot. It made the debates fascinating and interesting and made the numbers interesting, too. Governor Bill Clinton then of Arkansas, the Democrat came in with a lead.
Look how low the incumbent President of the United States was coming in to the final debate, 28 percent. Ross Perot had 13.
This is fascinating. Both Bush and Perot moved after the final debate, just not enough. H.W. Bush moved nearly 10 points. Again, that's about what President Trump needs.
So it's been done. But in this three-way race, it's hard to make a direct comparison. Governor Clinton would win the presidency with 43 percent of the vote.
[20:20:22]
KING: Bush v. Gore, 2000. Before we got to the Supreme Court, Governor Bush of Texas then against the sitting Vice President Al Gore, they came into the final debate with Governor Bush with a five- point lead. On Election Day, Al Gore came back to win the Popular Vote, just by a little bit. It was very close. But of course, he lost at the Supreme Court, lost in the Electoral College because of that, and George W. Bush would go on to be President.
But you see a little bit of movement in the race there with Gore coming up. Governor Bush held pretty static there.
In 2004, people forget how close this race was. Senator John Kerry, against the incumbent President. The first presidential election after 9/11. They came into the final debate tied essentially, Kerry 48 and Bush 47. But he stressed national security in the final days, again, the first election post 9/11, and on Election Day, Governor Bush got 51 percent, 48 percent for Senator Kerry, Ohio, decided the winner in this one not a lot of movement, though, between the final debate and Election Day, the movement that did happen for President Bush.
This was history in the making. The United States electing its first African-American President in 2008. John McCain was the Republican candidate. The Iraq War was the big issue. People were tired of it.
Barack Obama came in with a big lead, 14 points there. He actually lost a little bit of ground, but he still won comfortably on Election Day. Again, the final debate, not changing the debate -- the campaign all that much.
Now, let's fast forward. We all remember this, 2016. Right? Well, when they came into the final debate, Hillary Clinton had a five-point national lead, a five-point national lead coming into the final debate four years ago.
We all know what happened on Election Day, President Trump actually gained four points in the national Popular Vote. But of course Hillary Clinton won the Popular Vote. Donald Trump, because of that game, where it played out in the states won the presidency in the Electoral College. So he went up a little bit from the final debate last time through to 2016 election.
Here's the challenge in 2020, though. The President enters this debate 10 points down. Again, Ronald Reagan moved 10 points. George H.W. Bush moved nine points. Ronald Reagan was head momentum coming into the debate. George H.W. Bush was in that wacky three-way race.
If Donald Trump is to reverse this using the final debate, Wolf, that would be something for the history books -- Anderson.
COOPER: John King, appreciate it. Let's go to our team. David Axelrod, you know, when we hear people talking about, you know, this is the last chance for both candidates to change any dynamics that they want in this race. They're going to have this large audience. But you also have to remember who both of these people are in
particular. President Trump has come off a pretty erratic, you know, period of time since he last debated. I mean, he became infected with COVID. He might have been infected when he was on the debate stage last time with Joe Biden.
I mean, most recently, he is calling for Joe Biden to be investigated and have charges brought against him by his own Attorney General. Do you see some sort of change in dynamics for this President on this stage tonight?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is hard to see it. Gloria said it earlier. I agree with her.
The other problem that he has, Anderson, as I was listening to John King's recitation there. There are very few Americans who are undecided right now, if you believe the polls. There are very few movable parts left. We're a very polarized country. And a third of the country will have voted effectively by tonight or a third of those who are expected to vote.
So there aren't that many movable parts. The President has to move 10 points, and he has a very short playing field here.
So even if he behaves well, that is a difficult task and behaving well is a difficult task for him. Here's the problem. He in his own mind believes that he has a majority out there, and he just needs to mobilize them.
And the way he sees mobilizing them is doing the things that he does at his rallies. When in fact he has to persuade people who have committed to voting for in their own minds to voting for Joe Biden that they need to switch, and he is going to do that by repeating his rally tactics.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: And you know, the thing is, what he's got to try and do is make Joe Biden completely unacceptable. He is just not an alternative to me. That's what he's got to tell the American public.
Even if you don't like me, perhaps, look at this guy. He is a crook. You can't trust him. You can't -- whatever it is. That's what he is going to try and do tonight.
And what you have out there is an American public that's completely polarized, a very small sliver of undecided voters, and Joe Biden's own supporters are moving up in enthusiasm.
You know, they weren't very enthusiastic about Joe Biden. They're still not as enthusiastic as Trump supporters are about him. But they've warmed up to Joe Biden.
So if he is going to try and convince people, okay, this guy is unacceptable. The best he can hope for I think, is to convince people to stay away. And to say, well, I don't like either one of these guys.
[20:25:07]
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, but I think what's going on with him is that I think he is -- it is like a show that's in reruns, right?
BORGER: Yes.
JONES: So he is trying to do what he did last season. Last season, he criminalized Hillary Clinton because Comey through this kind of bombshell at the end. And so, he is trying to criminalize Biden, but it just doesn't work.
But he forgets -- the other thing that Trump did was that he also calmed it down a little bit near the end. And he doesn't seem to understand, look, first of all, you can't criminalize Biden. In fact, if Biden is such a criminal, why haven't your -- why hasn't your own Department of Justice put him in jail?
BORGER: Well, that's what he is asking.
JONES: But that's my point. It is that he was trying to do this rerun strategy, but he actually is misreading what he did last time. Last time, he actually did calm down. I agree with Senator Santorum, he may calm down a little bit, he may not be as erratic and crazy, but he is going to be doubling down and tripling down on these themes that nobody cares about, but him.
You know, nobody cares about Hunter Biden when they can't send their kids to school and when they don't have a job.
COOPER: Senator Santorum, can I just also ask you, do you believe these polls? I mean, you know, you're talking about a 10-point lead on the national polls. You know, we all know national polls at this point, Senator Santorum, national polls, you know, what matters is a bunch of different states and what's going to happen in those states. Do you think there is -- that Trump is pollable?
RICK SANTORUM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think if you look at the individual states, and I know you guys had that up earlier, those races -- there's no 10-point gap in any of those states. I mean, they're all within the margin of error, or just outside the margin of error. And, and most of them have been closing in the last couple of weeks.
And I think one of the reasons is we've gotten distance from that debacle debate, which has been a good thing. And so I don't think he's going to repeat it again tonight.
The other thing is, I understand, you know, the President has been going out after people. He always does that. But if you listen to his speeches, and you listen to the meme that's out there, he is effectively, you know, separating himself and contrasting himself with Joe Biden and what a Joe Biden America will look like, and what a Donald Trump America will look like, and that's what he's got to do tonight. He's been doing that very effectively on the trail, and I think it's
paying off. He has toned down. I know, he is still -- he is Donald Trump. When I say tone down, it's all relative.
But the other thing is, we are two worlds, and the conservative world is on fire right now with this whole Hunter Biden-Joe Biden scandal and he's got to deal with it.
He is going to mention it, and he's going to try to bring it out into the mainstream.
COOPER: We are closing in on the start of the final presidential debate of the 2020 election. Coming up, we are going to check in with some of those undecided voters we were just talking about. Let's see what they need to hear before they can make a decision.
We'll also see First Lady Melania Trump for the first time since her bout with COVID-19. We have some new details about how she is doing, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:30:46]
BLITZER: As we come down into the final Trump-Biden debate right at the top of the hour, you look at the live pictures coming in. Our fact checker, Daniel Dale is getting ready for what's almost certainly going to be a very busy night. Daniel, what are some of the false or misleading claims you've been hearing from the President this week?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Wolf, there have been just so many of them. I've been fact checking President Trump for more than four years, the period from Friday to Sunday when he had a bunch of rallies was possibly the most dishonest period he's had during that entire stretch.
I think the most important subject of his dishonesty is the coronavirus pandemic. One of the things he's been saying for months and keep saying this week is that the pandemic is going away or that we are rounding the turn, rounding the corner. That's a vague phrase Wolf, but it's just the opposite of the truth, whatever precisely he means. We are back to more than 60,000 cases per day. The President likes to dismiss the metric of cases. Well, hospitalizations are also rising again, and deaths are rising again. We're now having again, more than 1000 deaths, individual days.
He's also saying, Wolf, that it was supposed to be 2.2 million deaths. He said, well, it's very bad. You know, we're above 200,000. It was supposed to be 10 times that. This is a gross, inaccurate description of a statistic from an academic report in March that said that if no U.S. government and no U.S. citizen did anything to try to fight the virus, then in this worst case, unrealistic scenario, in that case, there'll be 2.2 million deaths.
I'd like to add, Wolf, he also continues to wrongly describe Joe Biden's policy positions. One of the things he keeps saying at his rallies is that under a Joe Biden presidency, 100 and 80 million people would be kicked off their private health insurance plans. That is not true. Joe Biden is a vocal opponent of single payer Medicare for all plans. Rather, he is proposing a public option in which people could voluntarily enroll in a government Medicare style Health Insurance Program. But, Wolf, they would not be forced onto it if they didn't want to be.
BLITZER: Yes, good points indeed. You know, Dan, base on all your fact checking, what do you see is Joe Biden's biggest vulnerabilities today?
DALE: Well, but from a fact check perspective, Wolf, Biden stretches a lot. So it's not quite at least usually the kind of egregious lying that we see from Donald Trump. But he'll say things like, I've heard that I would be the first non Ivy League educated president in 80 or 90 years or ever.
In fact, he'd be the first since Ronald Reagan, who will say that, you know, Trump advise people to inject bleach. Trump did make weird comments we know about the possibility of studying the injection of disinfectant to treat the coronavirus. He didn't actually advise people to drink bleach or Biden will say, you know, Trump eliminated funding for community policing. Trump did propose a significant budget cut for community policing. But Congress didn't agree and even the Trump proposal wasn't the elimination. So, for Biden, I'm looking for exaggeration, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, we'll see what happens. Thanks very much, Daniel Dale, our fact-checker.
I want to check in with a group of undecided voters that are very important battleground state. We're talking about North Carolina. They'll be watching the debate tonight and giving us a real time reaction. Gary Tuchman is on the scene with them in Davidson, North Carolina. Gary set the scene for us.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we want to welcome you to the beautiful campus of Davidson College in Davidson, North Carolina, just north of Charlotte. And we are with 11 North Carolina voters. We're socially distant. We're wearing masks. We're outdoors, but it's a great night to be outdoors, perfect weather to watch an outdoor debate. But all these people have in common is none of them have early voted because none of them know positively who they're going to vote for.
This is a critical state, as you said, Wolf, especially for Republican Donald Trump won it four years ago. But right now the poll show it's very tight. The Joe Biden has a slight lead. And this is an important state for Republican to win in the last half century. Only two Democrats have won here. In the Bicentennial year of 1976, Jimmy Carter won in 2008 when he first ran for president his first term, Barack Obama won.
What we have here are 11 people. And the question you're probably asking right now, I'm sure you're asking this question is, how can these people know who they're voting for just yet, right? That's the question.
I will tell you most of these people are leaning towards one of the two candidates, but there are a couple of the voters here who still have no idea whatsoever. First of all, Colleen (ph) is one of those people. Colleen is semi-retired, which means she's semi still working, right Colleen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN: OK. I want to ask you How come you have no idea yet who you want to vote for? You voted for Gary Johnson. I know four years ago. How come you haven't decided between Trump and Biden?
[20:35:03]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I haven't gotten specifics that tell me that there's a candidate among them, who has the will and the wherewithal and the temperament to do what's right for our country. So I'm hoping to see some more specifics tonight and make a decision.
TUCHMAN: Do you think you'll have a decision after tonight? You're hoping for that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It depends on how it goes.
TUCHMAN: OK. Now to your right, there's Harrison (ph). Harrison is sitting over there. Harrison is a student here at Davidson College. He's 20 years old, which means I'm doing my math four years ago, you were 16. You were too young to vote. First time you've ever voted. You are undecided completely. Why are you still undecided?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I really oppose abortion. But I'm concerned that President Trump is a threat to the fairness of elections. So I'm really telling (ph).
TUCHMAN: Do you think you'll have a decision by the time this debate is over? There's nothing big happening after this. That's the biggest event before Election Day?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I surely doubt it. But the confirmation vote on Monday will be interesting.
TUCHMAN: OK, so you may wait until a couple of days longer. Thank you for talking with us.
I do want to point out we've given everyone an iPhone here with a special program when they strongly agree with something during the debate, they swipe up, when they strongly disagree, they swipe down, we will present those results, the scientific results when this debate is all over. We will also find out who they think won the debate. And most importantly, we'll find out if they've decided who they're going to vote for, for President of the United States. Wolf.
BLITZER: Gary, looking forward to checking in with you right after the debate. And as people are gathering in the audience right now for tonight's debate their questions about the First Lady's health following her about with COVID-19 and the campaign trip she canceled two days ago. Kate Bennett covers on Melania Trump for us. Kate, so what can you tell us about how Mrs. Trump is doing?
KATE BENNETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: She's doing much better, Wolf. I'm told that she will be wearing a mask tonight that the lingering cough that she cited the other night when she canceled on that rally is doing a bit better. Of course, this is a first lady that has not made an appearance on the campaign trail outside of the RNC speech at the White House in over a year. So her appearance tonight is very important for the Trump campaign.
Also, we have not seen her publicly since September 29 at the last debate, of course, that was right before she said she was diagnosed with COVID-19. She and her son, Baron, she said we're both ill here at the White House. So of course the past two weeks not on the trail that's perfectly normal and acceptable. She was quarantined in the White House, but for a first lady not to participate in campaign events, when typically they're utilized and deployed on behalf of the candidate. Historically, it's very unusual.
And of course, we didn't see a lot of her in 2016 either. She wasn't a prolific speaker. She wasn't a visible presence that often on the campaign trail.
I am told, Wolf, that she does have dates on her calendar next week to campaign for the President, solo and with him as well. So we will see that come to fruition. However, it's a week before the election and again, a first lady often serves to humanize her husband's sort of being empathetic party to what the candidate is like and sometimes to rally women voters are undecideds sort of like the ones we just saw there. So, absolutely seems like the First Lady is getting involve. Yeah?
BLITZER: By the Way, Kate, I just want to interrupt for a second. You see the motorcade arriving there Nashville at Belmont University. The President United States and his motorcade, they are arriving, Anderson. We're getting closer and closer to the start of this debate.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yeah, we certainly are just a little bit more than 20 minutes away. I want to bring in our team again.
David Axelrod, it's often one doesn't pay a lot of attention to what's going on in the audience at a debate, though tonight, given what happened in the first debate where most of the people in the Trump family took off their mask once they came into the hall, which was against the rules or what they had all agreed to for the debate commission. Tonight, I guess, there's certainly going to be a lot of people looking to see, does the family actually continue to abide by the rules of the debate commission?
DAVID AXELROD, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISOR: Yeah, well, there's no question about that. And it really underscores the fact that you can't get away from this COVID issue. And one of the problems the President has is that he wants to tell us, we're rounding the corner just at a time when we are cresting. And that is going to hang over this debate. And so I just want to say one other thing about, you ask question about polling before the single biggest predictor of a president's performance when they're running for re election is their job approval rating. This President has been mired in the mid 40s in the low to mid 40s throughout his presidency. It's around 43 and a half now. I think presidents rarely get much higher than they are number.
And so he can't simply resist answering questions about COVID, about healthcare about things relative to his message as much as he wants to make it a comparative process if he's going to persuade those who are resistant to vote for him.
COOPER: Gloria we did hear from the campaign -- from the Trump campaign, they sent a letter to the Debate Commission. They were not happy they wanted more foreign policy in this debate?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Sure. Well, they're not happy about anything and they said that they wanted more foreign policy but they agreed to the rules. They agreed to the rules. They agreed to the moderators. They agreed to the format. They agreed to everything.
[20:40:09]
And so suddenly, the candidate starts paying attention, which is what I believe is occurring. And they're complaining. And this is, you know, this is what Donald Trump does. He's all about grievance before he goes -- before it goes into a debate. He's about grievance before it goes into an election. And he tells you that it's rigged. And what they want him to do is to talk about the economy, to talk about what he's done for the country before COVID and convince the American public that he can get the country back.
The problem that he has is not only his lack of popularity, as David points out, is that people don't trust him. They don't believe him. They don't think he's honest. So when he levels charges against Joe Biden, also about Hunter, et cetera, that could boomerang on him to.
VAN JONES, FORMER OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: You know, the one thing we haven't talked about is the last two times he had Donald Trump on the national stage. He managed to use the highest office in the land to uplift some of the lowest people in the country. The first time he was talking, he wound up praising the Proud Boys or seemed to me to give a positive signal to the Proud Boys. Then the last time he couldn't deal with the QAnon question.
And so I'm curious tonight, is he going to finally be able to stick up for the best in the country without applauding the worst in the country? And also, you know, these continue to tax on Joe Biden's character. The biggest smear on the President's character is these 545 children, these refugee children were torn away from their parents. And now this president cannot find their moms and their dads. So if he wants to make this an issue about character, and pro life and pro kit, no way, no way.
And so you've got a president of the United States tonight, who's got it -- if he wants to come out here and play dirty, there's some real issues that can be talked about, but I hope that he will not continue to praise the worst elements of American society.
RICK SANTORUM, (R) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Right. The Donald Trump that you're going to see is a Donald Trump that was at the last debate with Hillary Clinton, which is someone who was controlled, and did something that that he's actually good at, which is to becoming a be a little bit more of an entertainer. You know, try to -- if he's going to make those off comments, instead of being confrontational, to throw a little humor at Biden. Now, it'll be cutting humor no doubt. But try to be a little bit more less edgy, less angry, and more punchy, and going after the swamp, if you will.
And so, remember that one of the big things that Donald Trump -- one of the big things that Donald Trump won this election, he was the outsider that was trying to drain the swamp. And that's why you're going to hear about the, you know, the scandal going on that's all over the conservative world because it feeds into that hold swamp nature, and that he's not part of that.
BORGER: But he's the president. He's the president.
JONES: And he's the swamp. I mean, at the --
COOPER: Anyone, go ahead.
SANTORUM: Well, look Donald Trump is not been a Washington creature. Let's just be -- I mean, he's been anything but a traditional president. I mean --
COOPER: We got a lot of --
SANTORUM: Everybody can agree to that.
COOPER: Yeah, certainly swimming in a pool with a lot of Washington creatures that he has around him, though.
With just 12 days to go before Election Day, Joe Biden is facing different advantages and challenges. And Hillary Clinton faced four years ago. I want to go back to John King with that. John?
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: So Anderson, let's take a look at this. Many democrats say look at this map, Joe Biden with this electoral lead. We're good right up 10 points. And then other Democrats say no, wait a minute. We were leading heading into the last debate last time. In fact, heading into the final debate, last time we had Hillary Clinton passed 270 electoral votes in our outlook.
What's different this time, let's look at some of the differences. And we'll also look at some of the similarities, if you will. Let's start with some big differences. Let's look at the demographics. When you go into the demographics of the polling this time, Hillary Clinton on Election Day One women across America in one big, Joe Biden does even better. Hillary Clinton lost among voters over the age of 65, incredibly reliable voters, important in a number of states. Joe Biden leads there right now. This is a warning sign for the Democratic candidate. Hillary Clinton on Election Day won Latinos by nearly 40 points. Joe Biden's lead is only 20 in the polls right now, that is a bit of a warning sign. And both, look, Hillary Clinton lost by nearly 40 points among white non college Americans, Joe Biden trails among that demographic, not by as much.
So let me move this over, we'll go through a little bit of why and where this matters. Women help you everywhere. Women will be a majority of the electorate on Election Day. That giant gender gap helps Joe Biden. It's one of the reasons the map is favorable. Older voters, if Joe Biden can keep elite, if he can win senior citizens on Election Day, well, we right now have Florida as a toss up state. That's an advantage for Biden. It's one of the reasons that state is competitive. It's also one of the reasons we lean Arizona Democrat. If Joe Biden can keep that it helps him dramatically on the map. However, the flip side is if you look at those Latino numbers, if Donald Trump comes back in Florida, comes back in Arizona tries to mount a comeback behind that graphic there is Nevada. That's a warning sign for the vice president. If this is good debate for President tonight, and we have a tight race in those states heading into the final days.
[20:45:03]
One last point before I switch maps, white non college voters, look Joe Biden's losing and losing by a lot, but not by as much as Hillary Clinton, which is one of the reasons this is in play. Not just that we live in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, Joe Biden's way right now. But that Ohio is a toss up. Joe Biden is in play in blue collar industrial America, in a way Hillary Clinton simply was not.
Let's switch maps. We're just a couple more comparisons of this. And we'll go back to the map that makes Democrats cringe. This is 2016. Hillary Clinton wins the popular vote. She loses though, because of the Electoral College because of those three states right there plus Ohio. They flip.
So why don't we want to look at this map? Voters view Joe Biden simply differently on questions of personal character. Abby Phillip talked about this a little bit earlier. Are the candidates honest? Only 34 percent of Americans thought that about Hillary Clinton. Joe Biden's 57 percent he's winning, if you will, the character test with American voters right now.
Here's another way to look at that. His favorability rating, only 42 percent of Americans had a favorable opinion of Hillary Clinton liked her, 53 percent say they view Joe Biden favorably. That's a big challenge for the President tonight. Can you bring Joe Biden's favorability down, his views on honest and trustworthy? On the character question, people view Joe Biden not only more favorably than they viewed Hillary Clinton, they view Joe Biden a lot more favorably than they view the current president of United States who they do not see as honest and trustworthy. That is a giant Biden advantage.
So Democrats can look at all this, Anderson, and say, OK then, that's good, right? We have all these poll numbers. I just want to show you one thing. This is why Democrats maybe get a little bit nervous.
Let's pop up some battleground state polls and compare them to a couple years ago. Let me bring this up a little bit for you here and move it over a little bit here like this. Here we go. So, right now Joe Biden does have a lead, 10 points nationally. Right now he is leading in a lot of battleground states. And he's competitive and states that Hillary Clinton lost in 2016.
But let's compare Joe Biden right now in Wisconsin up eight points. Hillary Clinton at this point was up seven. Joe Biden is up a little bit in Ohio right now. Hillary Clinton trailed. That's the strength for Biden, but still pretty close.
Look at Pennsylvania, Joe Biden's lead is nine. But Hillary Clinton was up six at this point. Four years ago, North Carolina is about the same. Florida, let me move this down a little bit for you. The hours didn't stretch out there. Florida, Hillary Clinton was actually more at this point than Joe Biden is now. And Democrats say let's get Texas. Well, they said that four years ago, too. And it didn't turn out.
So if you look at the horse race polls, everyone needs to be careful. We got 12 days to go. If you look deeper into the polls, this is a very different campaign. Voters do not view Joe Biden the same negative way they viewed Hillary Clinton. But guess what, that's why you have one last debate. We'll see if anything changes after tonight. Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah, I mean, seeing it by state by state comparison to 2016 is fascinating. John, thanks, I appreciate that.
I want to dive into the huge early voting numbers that are breaking records right now. Pamela Brown is tracking the pre-election ballot. So, what are you seeing tonight?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the bottom line here, Anderson, is a lot of voters have already cast their votes before this final debate. With less than two weeks ago until Election Day. Take a look here early voting continues to skyrocket with more than 46 million votes cast so far. And we're seeing record early voting turnout in states like Florida, Georgia, and Texas, as you see on the map right here.
Let's take a closer look at the Lone Star State. So far, nearly 35 percent of all registered voters have cast their ballots compared to just 18 percent, this time in 2016. And then the critical state of Wisconsin the number of registered voters cast their ballots early, shot up 20 percent from 2020 points from 2016, with more than 1.1 million cast their ballots so far. And we still have a week and a half to go Anderson.
COOPER: How these big pre election voting numbers impact how quickly the votes are counted, do we know yet?
BROWN: Yeah, this is why these early voting numbers are so important. I'll tell you why. Because Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, these are two states that could determine who wins the presidency and they can't start processing and counting those ballots until Election Day and those two key states, which means there's a good chance they won't be done with the initial count until days after the election.
So, you see right here on the screen in Pennsylvania, more than 1.1 million votes have been cast. Now, a majority of those votes were cast through mail in ballots, compared to going to person as you see this breakdown right here, just over 57,000 went in-person with more than 1.1 going actually in mailing their ballots. And Wisconsin, it's a very similar story there. If you look at the breakdown here, 981,000 mail-in ballots versus nearly 150,000 in-person ballots.
Now in both of these states, absentee ballots are essentially processed and counted the same way. And again, they can't start until Election Day. And Pennsylvania mail-in ballots can be accepted up to three days after Election Day of cast by Election Day. And in Wisconsin, as of now all ballots must be delivered by Election Day. That case is still before the Supreme Court. Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Let's go to Jake. Jake?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Thanks, Anderson. And fascinating stuff and yet it really brings into focus how this thing isn't over when you remember what the polls looked like in these battleground states, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. And how Hillary Clinton was up then just like Joe Biden is now.
[20:50:03]
Now, I will say that if you talk to pollsters, they'll say that that they've gone back and figured out what they got wrong, which was that they had overestimated how many college educated voters would vote. And underestimated how many non college educated voters would vote. So that they feel like they're more accurate now, but you know, who knows?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And I think turnout is one of the big questions that I still have, as we go into these final few days. A lot of people are voting, we know that huge, huge numbers of people. The question is, how much are we cannibalizing Election Day numbers? Or are we looking at a bigger electorate? Are we looking at more people who are choosing to vote because it's easier for them to do it? Maybe they have access to absentee ballots, and they're using it and they maybe they didn't vote in the past because going to vote on Election Day was too difficult? We still don't really know the answer to that question. And it's going to be critical, because typically, Republicans believe that when turnout is high, Democrats tend to do better when it's lower, Republicans tend to do better. I don't know if that'll be true this time around. But it's one of the many open questions that we have.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Completely unchartered waters, because of the remarkable early voting numbers that we're seeing thanks to the pandemic and all of the of the laws and the rules changing and so many these battleground states. But when you talk about turnout, what did happen four years ago, and states like Pennsylvania, where I was, if you -- if Commonwealth, sorry, like Pennsylvania. I know, I know, I got myself a few weeks ago is that turnout was much higher in Republican areas than anybody anticipated people kind of came out of the woodwork for Donald Trump and with the Trump campaign is banking on with his play to the base strategy is that that will happen again, and on top of what they got before, it is a very, very risky strategy. But they don't really have a choice, given the fact that they have a candidate who is behaving the way he behaves, despite the advice that he's given many times to act quite differently.
TAPPER: The other thing that's interesting, when you look back at 2016, is I remember, you know, Trump would land in the middle of Pennsylvania, in the middle of the night, you know, like at 1130. And there would be 20,000 people there. And Hillary Clinton would go to a gym in the Philadelphia suburbs in the middle of the day, and there'd be like 100. And we would discount that we didn't think it meant anything necessarily. It's just crowds. You can't go by crowds. And it's true, you can't go anything, you can't go by crowds. But it does reflect to a certain degree, voter enthusiasm. And I think that Donald Trump, at the polls bear out even polls that show Joe Biden winning the election, that Donald Trump has more enthusiastic supporters than Biden does.
Now, does that mean anything, especially if attempts are being made to make it easier to vote so that you don't have to get up on Election Day and stand in line? I don't know.
PHILLIP: Yeah, I really don't know. And I also think that this cycle, Democratic voters, they have complicated motivations for going to the polls. Maybe they're not so jazzed about Joe Biden, but they've really, really disliked Donald Trump. And, you know, yes, they disliked Donald Trump four years ago. But I think that the urgency is different this time around. And I suspect that these polls that measure people's enthusiasm could be discounting the sense in which people are answering that question based on how they feel about Joe Biden, not based on how motivated they are to actually get out and cast a ballot one way or another.
BASH: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And one thing I want to bring up as we wait for the debate to start tonight is that, you know, obviously the focus is on the presidential race. But what Donald Trump does or doesn't do, how he performs tonight is going to matter, not just for him and whether he wins a second term, but for so many down ballot Republicans, particularly in the Senate where the balance of power really is at stake. Republicans, of course, are in control. There are a lot of vulnerable GOP senators, and they are worried many of them said that they saw their numbers drop because of what happened in the first debate, and they're worried it could happen again.
TAPPER: Oh, yeah, absolutely. They're distancing themselves from them. We'll see what happens. Let's check in right now on what's happening on the stage as we await the start of this final presidential debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TAPPER: When the candidates make their debate pitches tonight, they will have voters in must win battlegrounds on their mind. Oh, there's the First Lady, Melania Trump, walking in she has a mask on. Presumably this time she will not take it off. David Chalian is with us, David we're keeping an eye on the first family as they walk to the arena there. You're keeping tabs on the key races to watch?
[20:55:14]
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yeah, well, just as you heard, Pam Brown talking about 47 million people have voted, let me try to explain the stakes tonight, especially for the president here, because we have two battleground states and a brand new poll from CNN and each of them that tells us how people are casting those early ballots. Take a look in Florida, Jake, you see here, among those who have already voted, their vote is splitting 71 percent for Biden, 27 percent for Trump, plan to vote, meaning from tomorrow forward, 40 percent Biden 56 percent Trump. So the states tonight, when you look at something like that Donald Trump needs to win a much greater share of voters moving into this debate, because Joe Biden is banking so much of the early vote already. Anderson.
COOPER: Let's go back to our team. David Axelrod, I mean, what is going through candidates minds before they step on a stage like this?
AXELROD: You know, they basically are thinking of the things that they've been, generally, I don't know what the President does. Most candidates who have prepped, are thinking about those things that they want to hit with the cues that they're going to hear that will cause them to give the answers that they've been prepped day after day after day. Biden is probably thinking about what he's going to do if he's interrupted by the President.
But there's a lot of tension associated with these moments. I remember being in the locker room with President Obama before good debates, when he said we're going to have a good night and bad debates, when he said, let's just get out of here, let's get this over with and get out of here. You walk into the hallway, and you know, pretty much how it's going to go.
BORGER: I'll tell you a story about Joe Biden that I learned when I was reporting our documentary on him, which is, before all his big debates, Beau Biden used to be the last person in the room with him. And he would he would say to him, dad, remember home base, home base. Just remember what you need to say and say it, home base. And that was their little code. And I bet he's thinking about that.
COOPER: Go ahead, Rick.
SANTORUM: Well, I can just say, you know, having been there, you know, you know, your vulnerabilities. For me, it was, you know, I, my wife, or somebody would come up and say, happy warrior. Because you know, you want to be out there you want to fight but you don't want to turn people off by being too combative. And if there's anybody that needs the admonition of happy warrior, it's Donald Trump. So hopefully someone is whispered in the president's ear, happy warrior tonight. AXELROD: Yeah, he's got the warrior part.
BASH: Right. And who would that be?
COOPER: Van, for people watching tonight, I would just, if I'm going to ask this everybody, what are you going to be particularly watching for both candidates?
JONES: Look, I think that when Joe Biden looks into the camera speaks directly to the American people. And not only does he talk about their pain, but his plan, I think he's at his strongest. Donald Trump is going to do everything he can to get to make sure Biden doesn't do that very often. So I'm going to be looking for the discipline of Joe Biden, trust the American people, trust your plan, trust your connection to them, stay there, do not chase this guy or, you know, don't respond to stuff that you don't think Americans care about. And he's going to be fine. But if he gets rattled, all bets are off tonight.
BORGER: And Anderson, I would kind of use odd for me a sports analogy, but I would say you've got these two gentlemen here with different goals. One of them wants to run out the clock. And one of them is looking for a Hail Mary. And so they have two very different goals. And they're going to approach it in two very different ways.
AXELROD: I think the other issue is, does the President come out? And is he going to go very personal very quickly?
BASH: Yeah.
AXELROD: Or does he stick to policy distinctions? I think a lot of Republicans are hoping he'll go policy. If he goes personal, we could have a repeat of what we saw three weeks ago, that was a disaster for him.
COOPER: So David Axelrod, even though the mics are muted for two minutes during each statement, the candidate can hear the other candidate if they continue to talk to them when the mic is muted, that can actually be even worse for a candidate because then they're stumbling if they get thrown by that, and the audience doesn't know why they're stumbling.
AXELROD: Yeah, which is why I said earlier, I'm not sure that this actually benefits Biden. And I'm sure that a lot of their debate prep was, how do you talk when you have a heckler in your ear? You know, it is difficult, especially under the pressures they face. So this is going to be a test for him.
COOPER: I got to go back to Jake Tapper. Jake.
TAPPER: Anderson, thanks so much. Well, I think one of the big questions Abby and Dana is how disciplined Donald Trump and Joe Biden can be? To be complete, frank neither is known as completely disciplined although Biden has run a very disciplined campaign, aided in part by the fact that we're in the middle of this pandemic.
