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CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Talks About the Final Presidential Debate and 12 Days Left in Campaign; Fact-Checking the Final Trump-Biden Debate; As Cases Surge, Trump Claims U.S. Rounding Corner on Pandemic; Trump-Biden Clash Over COVID-19 Response; Trump Take Less Combative Approach to Final Debate; North Carolina Undecided Voters React to Final Debate; First Results of CNN Poll on Trump-Biden Debate. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired October 22, 2020 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If you are a black parent or a parent of color trying to raise your kids in this environment, you do not appreciate the role that Donald Trump is played in poisoning the atmosphere. And so, two things can be true at the same time, but you got to -- what we will find out in a few days, if this coalition they are trying to build on the one hand saying, doing some good things for African-Americans, but then emboldening our worst enemies, is a good strategy. I think it's not a good strategy.
RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, the reality is the black community prior to COVID had the lowest unemployment rate, lowest poverty rates, I mean, you just can't make up what he has done in focusing in on minority communities and trying to do things that particularly lift them up and spend time an effort, do lots of events at the White House, do lots of -- I mean, look, it's just not, you know --
JONES: I understand.
SANTORUM: -- a talking point. He's done the work and he's not getting credit for it and to do the work --
JONES: I think two things though.
SANTORUM: -- and at the same time be called a racist, to me, it just -- it doesn't make sense.
JONES: Well, look. Well, listen, there are two things that can be true at the same time. I appreciate the fact that they have done some reach out. I appreciate the fact that they have been trying to grow their party out. Frankly, it makes the African American community in a much better position when both parties are taking our pain seriously.
SANTORUM: Agree.
JONES: So, I appreciate that. But the problem is, what you guys don't want to take responsibility for is that, first of all, he lied on Obama's record. Obama did do stuff on criminal justice reform. The fair sentencing act, clemency, and in fact, the Department of Justice under Obama did a lot of good things on criminal justice that then Jeff Sessions undid.
So, both of these presidents, Obama and Trump, Obama did better administratively, but didn't do as well legislatively. Trump did better legislatively, but did a bad job administratively. This is complicated stuff. And then when you just want to try to politicize it, I think it's not right.
I don't think most African-Americans feel that we have a president that really understands the pain that we're going through and the damage that he is doing to the climate of the country. Has Trump not gotten fair credit for some stuff he's done? Yes. But it's his own fault. It's his own fault, because of the stuff that he does that pollutes the atmosphere.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I want to go to Daniel Dale with his first fact check of the night. Excuse me, let's go to Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: All right, Anderson, thanks very much. Excellent discussion there. Daniel Dale has got his first fact check of the night here. He's going to be doing plenty of them over the next few hours of our special coverage. Daniel, let's start with the big picture on how much the candidates got right or wrong tonight.
DANIEL DALE, CNN FACT CHECKER: Wolf, President Trump was better behaved tonight. But he lied more. This was just a bombardment of dishonesty, much of what we heard before at his campaign rallies about subjects big and small, important stuff like the coronavirus pandemic, about Biden's policies, about his own record. About the -- about Democrats' record. It went just on and on.
Biden was imperfect. There were at least a few false misleading or lacking in context claims from him, but for a fact checker you're kind of sitting there with Biden occasionally you're like, oh, that's wrong. With Trump, you're like that I love Lucy episode in the chocolate factory. You know, you don't know which one to pick up because there's so much. And so again, with this president, we just see a constant barrage incessantly of false or misleading stuff.
BLITZER: You know, Daniel, the president's handling of the pandemic certainly was a major topic certainly during the first part of this debate. The president claimed that at one point that 2.2 million Americans were initially expected to die from the coronavirus. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, as you know, 2.2 million people modeled out were expected to die. We closed up the greatest economy in the world in order to fight this horrible disease that came from China.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right. Daniel, so that 2.2 million figure, accurate?
DALE: So, Wolf, it's a real figure, but Trump falsely describes it and he's continued to do this at his rallies. Now, what this figure said, it was a report from British academics and it said that in the U.S. If no U.S. government did anything to mitigate the virus, to fight the virus, and no citizen took social distancing action, then we could see 2 million-plus deaths, but this was not an expectation.
It was not a realistic estimate. This was a figure put out to say this is how bad it gets if you just let this virus run its course which, of course, the government was not about to do, Wolf.
BLITZER: Let's listen to a claim made by the president, Daniel, about the state of the coronavirus pandemic right now. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It will go away, and as I say, we're rounding the turn, we're rounding the corner. It's going away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right. The president keeps insisting the virus is going away. It clearly is not going away. The numbers are off.
DALE: It's not going away, Wolf. I did an analysis. I found the president had said between February and October 10th, Trump had said 38 times that it was going away. It was wrong eight months ago. And it's wrong today. Look, as you said, the numbers are terrible. We're now back above 60,000 confirmed new cases per day.
The president doesn't like to use this metric of cases. He dismisses it. Well, hospitalizations are also rising. They're setting records in many states and, sadly, deaths are now rising again as they usually do with a lag after cases start rising. So, we're not rounding any turn. It's not going away. Things are getting worse in the United States.
[23:05:14]
BLITZER: Yes, 1,100 Americans died just yesterday in 1 day. Daniel, we're going to be getting back to you. I know you're doing a lot more fact checking. Jake, over to you.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Wolf. And I think one of the things that we need to talk about is in addition to coronavirus, the manner in which President Trump talks about this because this is obviously something that is affecting all of us even if we haven't lost somebody to COVID, and Vice President Biden tried to address people who have, specifically, lost people, and there are more than 222,000 Americans who have died from this.
And then it's just the concept of empathy because that is what the Biden people keep hitting, what Joe Biden keeps hitting and it is an area that Donald Trump is -- is not able to communicate effectively at all if he even possesses it, which I'm not sure. And we saw it time and time again during this debate talking about, I mean, very coldheartedly about the more than 500 kids who were separated from their parents as a policy by the Trump Department of Justice, Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General, enacted it, and how they haven't been able to find their parents.
And then you also just heard things about, like, people being deported, undocumented immigrants being deported and not coming back for their court date and then President Trump said, except for some with the lowest I.Q.'s and just the inability to talk about what we're all going through even if it's just your kids are struggling because they're learning on their commuters.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. The key moment that really encapsulated the president not understanding how to empathize on the coronavirus was that he repeated, as he often does, we're learning to live with it. And then Joe Biden came back and said, actually, we're dying with it.
And I think that really was the moment on the virus that encapsulated how this president only wants to focus on re-opening, doesn't want to acknowledge the sacrifices that the American people have made, that I know many of the president's advisers and supporters would like him to do because the vice president does it. When he talks about coronavirus, he says, you know, I want to thank the American people for doing all that you've done all of these months.
TAPPER: You're talking about Vice President Pence.
PHILLIP: Vice President Pence.
TAPPER: Yes.
PHILLIP: President Trump almost never does it. But I want to add one more to your list. He was asked directly, do you understand why black families have the talk? The president literally never answered the question and never attempted to answer the question. That could have been a moment --
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- for him. To say something. To do something. To change the perception that some of these opportunistic talking points about the first-step act, about the opportunity zones, have more depth behind it and he refused to take that opportunity.
BASH: Instead, he talked about being the least racist person in the room, the room where there was a --
TAPPER: So he's less racist than Kristen Welker?
BASH: A female moderator of color.
TAPPER: I'm pretty sure Kristen Welker is less racist than Donald Trump.
BASH: So, right. But I will even bring another point in which -- which was really interesting to me, frankly, about empathy and about the coronavirus, which the president wrapped that all into one bow and when Biden did his thing where he looked into the camera and said, I know there are people out there who are missing somebody at the table, somebody who doesn't have somebody at home, you know, going to sleep, the president attacked him for being a typical politician.
TAPPER: It was for the -- this isn't about my family, it's not about his family, it's about your family.
BASH: Right. But he was having an empathetic moment.
TAPPER: Right.
BASH: And what the president did was try to call him out and say, that's -- to use Biden's term, that's malarkey, that's not real, he's just being a politician. I don't know that people are going to buy that because if you -- even if you're not really a big fan of Joe Biden's policies, he is genuinely empathetic. He means that.
And so what Trump was trying to do globally for the whole 90 minutes was to say, you know, I might be the president of the United States, I might live in the White House, but I'm still the disrupter and he's the longtime politician. And the fact that he took it that far in that moment was risky.
TAPPER: That's interesting you say that, I agree, I think that does sum up the night, both Biden saying that and Trump's response. And I think one of the reasons why, in my view, it did not work, although I'm sure it worked with the MAGA bubble because they think that anybody that expresses affection for their son or empathy for someone they don't know is weak. So, but I think that's what it's indicative of.
[23:10:00]
President Trump lives in an atmosphere of disinformation, false information, reinforcing itself. And that's why some of the things, some of the punches he threw at Joe Biden, I don't think landed because unless you were Sean Hannity, you probably had no idea what he was talking about.
PHILLIP: You need an encyclopedia to understand what is going on because it's a series of buzzwords that have meaning, perhaps, if you've been studying, you know, the daily caller, whatever it is. But if you are just a regular person going about your life, you're not going to understand where -- what rabbit holes the president is going down.
So, you know, I noticed in this debate, you know, they were given two minutes to give their answers. The president gets a lot of words into his two minutes. When you listen to the words that are coming out, I do wonder how many people at home are really connecting the dots here between the words that he's saying and what it means for them.
Because sometimes it does sound like he's trying to get as many of these buzzwords in, these buzz-attack words against Biden, but they don't connect with real people. And I think that's where, you know, tonight, you're really left wondering what did the president really accomplish in terms of advancing his agenda for the next.
TAPPER: And the other thing is people on his team, and you were saying this earlier, Dana, people on his team wanted him to talk about the economy tonight. They wanted him to talk about how he's going to be able to bring the economy back to normal after he deals with COVID. Even though he's not really dealing with COVID. That's a separate issue. You know, this is an area where polls indicate he's still competitive with Biden if not ahead.
BASH: Yes. It's the one area.
TAPPER: People do trust him more. The one area.
BASH: Right, it is the one area.
TAPPER: But all I'm going to say is he didn't do it.
BASH: No.
TAPPER: He didn't do it. He was off in Breitbart land talking about laptops.
BASH: Yes.
TAPPER: Americans were worried about food on the table or their kids not getting a good education, or when is this virus going to be over, they didn't get an answer from him.
BASH: Right. I mean, look, let's just be clear, the bar was very low based on the last.
TAPPER: Yes. He didn't set himself on fire.
BASH: Right.
TAPPER: Correct.
BASH: Very, very --
TAPPER: Yes.
BASH: And so he cleared that low bar. But, and he did, as I said before, listened to his advisers on some of the tactics that he should use, namely don't interrupt Joe Biden as much or at all. And also to try to pivot as much as he could. But one thing he didn't do that people I talked to who are in his camp on Capitol Hill have said over and over again is not just the economy but just broadly, what is your goal for your second term? What do you want to do? What are your agenda items?
PHILLIP: Yes.
BASH: Can you name any besides getting the economy back on track which is not a small thing.
TAPPER: And learning to live with the pandemic.
PHILLIP: He really struggled with this question. BASH: There really aren't a serious agenda items that he can lay out
in a very fair way which is a really important thing if you are asking the American people to get his job back.
PHILLIP: You get the distinct impression that the president, obviously, wishes this race were different, and wishes this race were kind of taking the clock back to January of 2020 before the coronavirus. He hasn't really come to terms with the fact that this is the race that he is in right now. And he can't just say to voters, well, I just want to take the clock back. He's got to figure out how to navigate through this new reality that people are living with.
One of the key things, you know, a real practical thing that I -- Joe Biden spent a lot of time on, actually, in one of his answers, was about schools and you mentioned it, Jake, people are living with their kids at home. They want to know how their kids are going to be able to get back into schools.
These are the kinds of specifics that he -- the president needs to walk people through what that looks like for them and not just say, well, the virus is coming and then we'll be fine.
TAPPER: Yes. While we need to live with it. There was a much more coherent answer from Biden on that. I thought he ticked three things that need to be done. Even though I do think, again, that Biden struggled when Trump confronted him with the question of, you've been in politics for 47 years.
PHILLIP: Yes.
TAPPER: You were vice president for eight years, why didn't you do that then? I thought that was the most effective thing that Trump did this evening. I don't think it will be enough. Can I just say one other thing about the Gates/Breitbart nonsense, that Trump spews that -- like this little code words that, you know, make Hannity's pins shine at specific moments when he utters them.
The president even though he leaned into it a little bit but he didn't really go full-bore. Which I think was wise. Or at least not stupid. He is running the single most negative sleazy campaign in American history for a major party candidate. Now, it used to be that people would be negative --
BASH: That says something.
TAPPER: It used to be people would be negative and you could always say, well, don't forget the campaign against Dukakis or historians like Beschloss or whatever would come on and say, you know in 1800. Jefferson had pamphleteers who accused John Adams of being a hermaphrodite or whatever.
[23:15:11]
The campaign, the Trump and his allies in the media and members of his family and the Trump allied websites and such are leveling with charges so heinous. I'm not even going to say them. Just nonsense, crap, tied into QAnon, tied into PizzaGate, tied into the worst things you can say about a person, with no evidence, just completely made up it is so disgusting and so beneath what this election should be.
And I just want viewers at home to be ready because all of their grandparents' Facebook feeds and all of the Twittersphere, it's going to be so heinous over the next 11 days. And people should just be prepared for it. The president leaned into some of it, generally to some of the sleazier baseless accusations, not the worse, but it's going to get a lot worse.
PHILLIP: Yes, you know, I mean, it's a sign of how little in reality that they have to put up against Joe Biden. I mean, this is the problem for them. Is that so much of this stuff is either complete fabrications of falsehoods, and just innuendo that has very little evidence behind it and they have to go there.
Well, to the imaginary in some ways in order to get at Biden and try to drive up Biden's negatives because that's been the single hardest thing for them to do up until this time.
BASH: You guys are talking about things that are potentially out of bounds or are out of bounds, but one of the things that has really frustrated Republicans is that the president has not until tonight, which I think he did much, much more of than ever before, has not defined Joe Biden on policy issues that are genuinely different from Republicans that are way inbound.
And he did start to do that tonight. If the president can stay as disciplined -- and I use that word very loosely -- as he was tonight, just like he did four years ago at the end if the campaign, you know, things could change. But it's a very big if?
TAPPER: Well, yes, I mean it's the biggest if I ever heard. Anderson?
COOPER: Let's go back to our fact checker Daniel Dale. Daniel, another important debate topic was healthcare, the president made this claim about former Vice President Biden's plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: One thing very important, we have 180 million people out there that have great private health care, far more than we're talking about with Obamacare. Joe Biden is going to terminate all of those policies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Daniel, what do you make of that?
DALE: Biden basically did this fact check for me, Anderson, during the debate. It's just false. As Biden said, Senator Bernie Sanders and others on the left proposed Medicare for all, single-payer government health care programs. Biden is not one of those people. He has vocally rejected that approach. What he has proposed is known as a public option, in which people can voluntarily enroll in a Medicare-like government program if they wanted to. They would not be forced off their private plans. Biden would not
terminate private insurance. Now there are legitimate questions about how a public option if it was robust and popular would affect the availability of private insurance over time. As former Senator Santorum said on our air earlier. But this suggestion that Biden is just going to wipe away private plans, terminate them, is simply false, Anderson.
COOPER: Excuse me, President Trump once again went after Joe Biden on the issue of fracking to extract oil and gas. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's all a pipe dream, but you know what we'll do, we are going to have the greatest economy in the world. But if you want to kill the economy, get rid of your oil industry. You want -- what about fracking?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Let me --
TRUMP: Now we have to ask --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me allow Vice President Biden to respond.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I never said I oppose fracking.
TRUMP: You said it on tape.
BIDEN: I did -- show the tape. Put it on your website.
TRUMP: I'll put it on.
BIDEN: Put it on the website. The fact of the matter is --
TRUMP: Showed it --
BIDEN: -- he's flat lying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Daniel, he then later on added that he had called for an inter fracking on federal land.
DALE: Yes, so in this case Trump is correct. Biden did make anti- fracking comments during the Democratic primary in 2019 and 2020. And Trump was not lying. Listen, for example, to something he said in 2019.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. Vice President. Just to clarify, would there be any place for fossil fuels including coal and fracking in a Biden administration?
BIDEN: No. We would -- we would work it out. We would make sure it's eliminated and no more subsidies for either one of those. Either -- any fossil fuel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DALE: So, Biden did not say the words, I oppose fracking there, but he clearly was at least very strongly suggesting that he was an opponent. Now the thing about this, the nuance here, is that was never Biden's actual policy position. So we had this weird semi comical cycle during the primary where Biden would make these broad anti-fracking comments.
And then his campaign spokespeople would have to say, no, no, that's not his actual plan, his actual plan as it is today is a ban on new leases for oil and gas on public land only. So Biden is not actually proposing a complete fracking ban but it just false for Biden to say that he never said he opposed fracking, Anderson.
[23:20:14]
COOPER: Daniel, overall, how did you think things compared to the last time?
DALE: I think it was -- it was worse for Trump. I mean, this was like the debatetification (ph) of his rally lies. Biden as usual had assorted exaggerations, some flat-false claims like the one we just fact checked. But I think the dominant story from a fact-check perspective was again this bombardment, this avalanche from the president, the same bombardment we've been trying with moderate success to deal with for the last five years.
COOPER: Yes, Daniel Dale, thanks, we'll check back in with you again shortly. Back now with our team. David Axelrod, just in terms of where things go tomorrow, I mean, the president is going to continue with large rallies which, you know, superspreader events potentially. Vice President Biden is going to continue with socially distant campaigning, I suppose. How do you see this race over the next two weeks?
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, well, look, I think this was the last big event that we know about. I mean, you know, as we learned throughout this campaign, there can be intervening events. No one expects. And the president is capable because he has the power of the presidency to do things, but I think anything that he would do that is overtly political will be seen as such.
I really think this cake is baked and whatever's going to happen on the 3rd of November when the votes are counted, there isn't a big event that's going to intervene. I don't -- I think the president needed to change the trajectory of this race tonight. And you know, I was interested in this discussion earlier about the fact that he didn't really articulate his agenda. He totally defines it. He still is running as an insurgent and defines himself totally in opposition to his opponent.
But he's the president and people expect the president to have something to say about what his own vision is. And he's not comfortable with that. He had a chance to do it tonight. He really didn't do it very well. And even on substantive differences like taxes, where you think he could have borne in on Biden more than he did, he really didn't come back to it.
So I don't think he did anything to change the race. I think that Biden is in a good position. And I think it's just a sprint to the finish line and an organizational battle now.
COOPER: You know, Gloria, David raised an interesting point which when the president is asked during debates, you know, OK, for the next early on, he was asked, you know, as many as 200,000 people may die by the 1st of February according to the latest projections, you know, what are you going to do in the next several months about this? He doesn't answer that question.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: He doesn't answer.
COOPER: He pivots to other things, to attacking Joe Biden, or whatever it may be. To David's point, you know, Joe Biden, you know, says at least that he would hold up a -- he held up a mask. He said 100,000 people could be saved, or more than 100,000 people could be saved if people wore these. He didn't give a lot of specifics but the president doesn't really seem to focus at all on --
BORGER: No.
COOPER: -- actual, like, future governance.
BORGER: No, no, and Biden said, I'd have a different plan for testing, I'd have a plan for opening schools, you know, he went on a bit about that. The president has his little bumper sticker and then goes on to the next bumper sticker. Whether its health care, oh, well, you know, I got rid of the mandates, that's what I did, and I'm going to save pre-existing conditions somehow, although we don't know how, because he doesn't delve into policy. We all know that.
To me, as I've sort of sitting back thinking about the whole difference between these two men as we look at this debate, Biden's strongest moments are when he reaches into his ethical, moral, self and gets outraged and talks about COVID and said it's not how you have to live with it, we're dying with it.
Or when he talks about the cages, violating every notion of who we are as a country or when he talks about health care as a right, not a privilege. And that separates him from the president of the United States who doesn't, can't reach there because he doesn't have an empathetic bone in his body, to talk about these issues to the American people.
Instead, what we saw tonight was a focus on him -- from him trying to make Joe Biden somehow corrupt. He said, they're calling you a corrupt politician. And then he went into his rabbit hole as Jake and Dana and Abby were talking about, about the Hunter Biden laptop and started going, you know, down that which nobody understood.
[23:25:02]
Trying to paint Joe Biden as corrupt even though Joe Biden, most of the American people, over 60 percent of the American people, believe he's honest and trustworthy and all the rest of it and they believe it is Donald Trump who is corrupt. So the difference tonight between these two men was so stark to me.
JONES: I think -- I'm sorry, go ahead, Senator. I'll let you.
SANTORUM: No, no, I didn't see the debate on coronavirus the way you folks did. Look, I think Trump actually gave his best defense on coronavirus that we've seen. And he contrasted it I think very clearly between Joe Biden who wants to continue to shut things down and Donald Trump who wants to open things. And he did give an answer as to what he would do in the future. He talked about therapeutics. He talked about vaccines. He talked about ventilators. He talked about PPE. He talked about things that are going to improve --
COOPER: No, he said --
SANTORUM: -- lowering the death rates.
COOPER: He said that the United States was manufacturing a lot of ventilators and sending them overseas. He said that he received therapeutics, that they call them therapeutics but actually really he thinks they're a cure which, by the way, is not something which is readily available to most people and --
SANTORUM: But.
COOPER: -- there's no details of any kind of plan.
SANTORUM: But the bottom line is he talked about operation warp speed. He talked about that, you know, that they're working on cures and therapies and --
BORGER: That's the doctors.
SANTORUM: -- vaccines and that they would and they would get these things out very, very quickly. Now, he may be exaggerating when the vaccines come out. But if you look at what Joe Biden is saying, he's not really offering anything different. I mean, there really is only certain things you can do, is just how effectively and efficiently --
(CROSSTALK)
AXELROD: Right, what he's -- what he's offering is the truth which is that every expert says we are, in fact, headed into a dark winter. It is going to be a long, hard slog, and even if we did get a vaccine, we're still going to be in a difficult position for some time to come. And the president's answer to that was I know better than those scientists.
Well, he's been telling us that since February. And every time he tells us it's going to be gone by April, it's going to be gone by Easter, it doesn't happen. He doesn't know better than the scientists. And I think there's an appetite for a president who actually listens to scientists.
COOPER: Also, the difference in their plans is Joe Biden is saying, we can save 100,000 people. I think the figure is actually, like, 70,000 to 75,000 according to the latest projections. But 75,000 people could be saved if 95 percent of the country just wore this little piece of cloth when they went outside.
SANTORUM: But Anderson, you --
COOPER: And the president is not talking about saving anybody. He's not talking about saving -- he can save 100,000 --
JONES: A couple things here --
COOPER: -- by encouraging people to wear a mask.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I think the Senator is right on a couple things. I think you're right. I do think that this was probably Trump's best attempt to answer and I think you're right, he can talked about the vaccine and that kind of stuff. But I think -- here's how I think it's going to actually impact the race. I think that there are going to be conservatives like yourself and libertarians like, you know, who are a part of your coalition, who are relieved tonight. They feel like they can now kind of get out there, they don't have to hang their heads in shame.
He boxed smartly and he did well, but he needed two things to happen tonight. Not just one. One, Trump needed to not come across like a deranged madman who's just going to run over everybody and scare people, and he needed Joe Biden to completely bomb. And the problem is Biden did well, too. That's the problem I think --
SANTORUM: See, I would --
JONES: You'll see it differently.
SANTORUM: I'll disagree with that a little bit.
JONES: That's fine.
SANTORUM: Go ahead.
JONES: Go ahead, Senator.
SANTORUM: I would say, I disagree with that. Look, he made lots of -- I mean, looking at the watch. He made a lot of slurs of words. And made some not cooperative and things like that.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I think it's unforgivable. Sure. Nothing else --
SANTORUM: Nothing unforgivable. But he didn't look solid. He looked a little rattled at times. And you can say, well, that's nothing, but when you're kryptonite is just that, that's a problem for him.
JONES: Now, listen, for you guys -- SANTORUM: So, even a little bit can go a long way.
JONES: Listen, I understand. Let me just tell you from our point of view, at least how I see it. Yes, there are times he gets wobbly but that's baked into the cake. The same way you guys have stuff baked into the cake with Trump, just Trumpisms and we get upset, you guys say, we're already over that. Some of that stuff is baked into the cake with Joe Biden.
SANTORUM: Maybe. Yes.
JONES: But Joe Biden is able to box -- well, he's up 10. Joe Biden was able to box smartly. He was able to deal with the situation. He got himself into some trouble, but I think the key is that if you're going to vote for Joe Biden, it's because you believe that he's a good man, he's a solid man, and he cares about the country. And I think Joe is stronger today because of his performance on that and I don't think anything that Trump did outside of the Fox News world hurt him there.
So I think that, yes, you are correct. I think Trump helped himself tonight. I don't think he helped himself enough. And I think Biden comes out.
[23:30:00]
I think it's a draw. I think you guys will feel better about it, but we feel pretty good, too.
SANTORUM: Here is what I will say. You guys have been dancing around this Fox News story and the conservative world story. I understand that. I understand that, you know, the mainstream media is not reporting on that. But it's -- it's not like it is not getting out there and it is not like people aren't communicating that.
And the fact is Joe Biden, interestingly enough, brought it up. I mean, that's really the interesting thing in this debate, is that Biden actually brought it up before Trump did, and to talk about it, sort of go after Trump a little bit, and he didn't effectively respond to it. He sort of blew it off.
JONES: Let me say something about --
BORGER: Oh, he said it was Russian disinformation. I mean, it was --
SANTORUM: Well, which is -- which is sort of hard to believe when their director of national intelligence says it wasn't.
JONES: Well, I just want to echo Jake Tapper. I just want to echo Jake Tapper on this. I think Jake Tapper speaks for an awful lot of Americans. It is disgusting and it is despicable, these online rumors, and frankly, very good people who know better are passing around on Facebook stuff that is disgusting and dishonest.
And frankly, if it were remotely true, Joe Biden would already be in prison. So, let's just be honest about this stuff. One of the nastiest, ugliest smear campaigns online -- BORGER: Desperation.
JONES: -- in the history of American politics. And it's a desperation move. I think, listen, I don't care if you're Republican, Democrat, independent, whoever you are, stop promoting this -- these kind of smears. We have to be in a country where reasonable people can run for office and not be subjected to complete --
SANTORUM: OK. OK. Van, I'm going to agree with you.
JONES: I'm not talking about Hunter Biden. I'm talking about the other stuff.
SANTORUM: Hold on. Yeah, but remember the Steele dossier and what was floated about president -- at that time candidate Trump --
JONES: I was against that, too.
SANTORUM: So, well, I'm just saying. It's not like both sides don't do it. And it's -- and I agree, the salacious stuff, there's no -- there's no -- there's no point to it. There's no --
JONES: Is there evidence of it?
SANTORUM: But there are some legitimate concerns that are being raised and they're being ignored, and I think they're going to come back to bite him.
COOPER: We're going to find out --
JONES: All I'm saying is, you know, you know what I'm talking about. And for people to be promoting this stuff on Facebook and good people, including good Republicans, that needs to stop. Let's have an actual debate.
COOPER: Coming up, we are going to find out how undecided voters in North Carolina responded to tonight's debate, which moments had the biggest impact. We will also get the first result from (inaudible) poll and debate watchers, what's their verdict on who won. That's all ahead.
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[23:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: All right. Let's get back to our fact checker Daniel Dale. Daniel, the president once again claimed he was simply joking when he talked about injecting bleach to fight COVID-19. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Fact is that when we knew it was coming, when it hit, what happened? What did the president say? He said, don't worry, it's going to go away, be gone by Easter. Don't worry, the warm weather -- don't worry, maybe inject bleach.
He said he was kidding when he said that. A lot of people thought it was serious. A whole range of things the president has said. Even today, he thinks we are in control. We're about to lose 200,000 more people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Trump.
TRUMP: Look, perhaps just to finish this, I was kidding on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So, Daniel, we've heard this from the president before. That he was simply kidding.
At one point, he said, then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleansing, a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that, so you're going to have to use medical doctors with it, but it sounds interesting to me.
It didn't sound like he was kidding to me.
DALE: Wolf, that's dead serious. I mean, it's weird for a fact checker to fact check whether someone was joking or not.
But in context, if you watch that video from April, it was entirely clear, he looked at the side of the room in the direction of his medical and scientific experts and said the quote you just said about the possibility of studying whether disinfectants, injecting them, could treat the coronavirus.
Biden sometimes exaggerates on this, suggests that Trump actually actively recommended that people inject bleach. He didn't. He was talking about studying it. But there is question, Wolf, he was serious and not sarcastic and kidding, like he keeps claiming.
BLITZER: Yeah, remember, in the room, at the White House briefing room, you can see Dr. Birx. She was really uncomfortable when she heard the president --
DANIEL: Yeah.
BLITZER: -- say that.
DALE: Yeah.
BLITZER: That was a pretty awful moment. The president also talked once again about Dr. Anthony Fauci and his early, very early assessment of the coronavirus. This is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anthony also said, if you look back, exact words, here are his exact words, this is no problem and this is going to go away soon. So, he is allowed to make mistakes. He happens to be a good person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Did the president quote Dr. Fauci accurately?
DALE: He did not, Wolf. Wolf, the president has a long history -- he's been doing this for months -- of misquoting Dr. Fauci. In fact, to be more precise, he keeps inventing non-existing quotes from Fauci.
So, here is what Fauci said in a February interview that people on the right have seized on as evidence for this kind of thing. He said on the NBC "Today Show," at this moment, there's no need to change anything that you're doing on a day-to-day basis. So people, you know, take that sentence and say, OK, he's playing it down.
But that is not so, because listen to what Fauci said next. He said, right now the risk is still low, but this could change, I've said that many times even on this program. He went on to say, when you start to see community spread, this could change and force you to become much more attentive to doing things that would protect you from spread.
He later said in that same interview this could be a major outbreak, I hope not, or it could be something that's reasonably well controlled. At the end of the day, this will ultimately go down.
So, yes, he did say it will ultimately go down, but he certainly, Wolf, did not say soon, and again, he expressed considerable uncertainty as he continued to warn people of a looming risk.
BLITZER: I don't know why the president keeps attacking Dr. Fauci. Every time he does so, the president's own political aides, they get very, very nervous. They don't like this. They think it will only hurt the president in terms of public opinion. Dr. Fauci is one of the most respected men in America right now.
Daniel, I know you're working some other issues. We're going to get back to you soon.
Right now, I want to see how tonight's debate played with voters out there, still haven't made up their minds. We have a group of undecided voters in the truly critical battleground state of North Carolina. They've been watching the debate together with all of us.
Gary Tuchman is with them in Davidson, North Carolina right now. So, Gary, the undecided voters, I take it, had a strong reaction to this discussion about coronavirus. Let me throw this bite.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf, we're at --
BLITZER: Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: And I don't look at this in terms of the way he does. Blue states and red states, they're all the United States. And look at the states that are having such a spike in the coronavirus. They're the red states. They're the states in the Midwest. They're the states in the upper Midwest. That's where the spike is occurring significantly.
But they're all Americans. They're all Americans. And what we have to do is say, wear these masks, number one.
[23:40:00]
TRUMP: We can't keep this country closed. This is a massive country with a massive economy. People are losing their jobs. They're committing suicide. There's depression, alcohol, drugs at a level that nobody's ever seen before. There's abuse, tremendous abuse. We have to open our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So tell us, Gary, why it did resonate with the undecided voters who were with you.
TUCHMAN: That's right, Wolf. Those two comments from Joe Biden and Donald Trump, both regarding the coronavirus, were the highest-rated comments by each candidate, according to our panel here of undecided voters.
Maybe a question you're asking right now, how can there possibly be at this time undecided voters? Well, I will tell you, these people have not voted in early voting because they don't know who to vote for positively yet.
I will tell you that almost all of them are leaning towards one candidate or the other. A couple others have no idea whatsoever. But they all say they could still be swayed based on what they saw tonight or based on what happens over the next few days.
But regarding those comments, I'll start with this gentleman right here. You go through the high points of both the candidates.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
TUCHMAN: Unity that Joe Biden was talking about, the economy that Donald Trump was talking about. Tell me why those were positive comments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean we have to be united. We can't -- we are the United States, right? Then, you know, the economy has to be open. If it's not, I mean, there's nothing for us to do.
TUCHMAN: You give them both the credit. You, sir, you thought they were both positive comments for both men, too. Tell me why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, I would say compassion doesn't care about political party lines. Compassion is about all people. And so I thought that was quite a convincing stand for a much needed spirit of American unity.
TUCHMAN: What about the economy staying open? Donald Trump talked about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. I think -- I think progress, progress through the challenges is important, but not at the expense of compassion for those who are suffering.
TUCHMAN: This young lady right here, you thought that was a positive comment by Joe Biden and Donald Trump also, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Uh, I thought it was a positive comment from Joe Biden, yes.
TUCHMAN: With Donald Trump talking about the economy, though, what was your reaction to that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I feel as though that the issues, the COVID needs to be addressed before we can get to that point and talk about opening up the economy.
TUCHMAN: OK. This gentleman right here, you told me that you thought it was important what Joe Biden said and also important what Donald Trump said. Tell me why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Like we said, we're United States and Donald Trump uses the fact that he calls them our blue leaders, don't agree with him, and Joe Biden was having none of that. And I think the economy is important because, like Donald Trump said, if we -- if we shut down the economy at the expense of the people, there's not going to be a country to come back to.
TUCHMAN: One of the things we were talking about was the second biggest moment. A lot of you told us it was the last question, what would you say to voters who aren't voting for you? Why did you think that was such an important moment, the last question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that was important because I think that we need to find a commonality to come together and grow as a country. I think Biden provided that type of answer.
TUCHMAN: Why did you think that was an important moment, the last question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think that where we're at now, our country is just divided. And I think that Biden basically told us that he's going to do what it takes for all Americans, not just people that follow a certain political party.
TUCHMAN: What did you think the most important moment of this debate was?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the most important debate -- moment of the debate was probably the transparency discussion that was permeating throughout all the conversation.
The fact that transparency came up in tax returns, finances among overseas individuals, and also transparency that the COVID-19 vaccine is coming out, more than ever, we want to be able to trust those leaders in office. And so that is why transparency, I think, needs to be a discussion.
TUCHMAN: Do you think this was a better debate than the first one, lot less commotion, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do think so. I think the moderator did a good job of handling both candidates and that they talked about the real issues and a lot of issues this time rather than just going back and forth with --
TUCHMAN: Was it refreshing for you to see a debate where there was less interrupting, less complaining, and more substance?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. After watching the first debate, this one was much better. I mean, it was more controlled. And also with the mute button, it made a big difference.
TUCHMAN: The mute button. Everyone noticed the mute button today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
TUCHMAN: It did make a difference. It is something to keep in mind for four years from now. Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Yeah, I agree. I think that Kristen Welker of NBC News did an excellent job as a moderator tonight. Gary, the lowest moment of the night centered on the president's remarks about racism in our country. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I am the least racist person, I can't even see the audience because it's so dark, but I don't care who's in the audience, I'm the least racist person in this room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: So tell us about the reaction to that, Gary.
[23:45:03]
TUCHMAN: Yeah. It wasn't a positive reaction, Wolf. As you saw, at the very least, it was a bit presumptuous to say something like that. The racist comment -- let me start with you as I'm walking by you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mm-hmm.
TUCHMAN: How did you feel about that when you heard the president said that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was quite shocked, honestly. I thought that by this time, what we're looking for, that people would kind of teach him what to say, what not to say. But that's really how he feels, so at least we actually know going into the voting where he stands.
TUCHMAN: Sir, how did you feel about that comment when we heard --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From Donald Trump comparing himself to Abraham Lincoln?
TUCHMAN: Yes. Well, yes, when he said -- he actually said that he's been the best president for black people since Abraham Lincoln. But when he said he is the least racist person, how did it make you feel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it seemed like a bit of a show. I think his policy and his, like, weakness in bringing black people and white people together says it all.
TUCHMAN: I want to ask you now, this is what our viewers have been waiting for, and that is this question about who you think won this particular debate.
If you can raise your hands, this is unofficial vote, the official vote will come at the ballot box for president, the unofficial vote about who won the debate, who thinks Donald Trump won this debate? I don't see any hands. That's a zero.
How many people think Joe Biden won this debate? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. How many people think it was a draw? One, two. Two people say it's a draw. Zero people say Donald Trump. Nine people, Wolf, say Joe Biden. Back to you.
BLITZER: Thank everyone for doing this. Really interesting, Gary. Appreciate it very much.
We're about also to get the first results from our instant poll of debate watchers and a verdict on who won tonight. We'll share that with you. A lot more is coming up. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:00]
TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN's Debate Night in America. We now have the first results from the CNN instant poll of people who watched tonight's final presidential debate. David Chalian has the numbers. David, based on our poll, who won the debate?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And just remember, Jake, this is a poll of debate watchers. It's not representative of the country, overall. And our sample in this poll of debate watchers was about 32 percent Democratic and 31 percent Republican. The rest is independent.
So, it is pretty evenly distributed, perhaps a slight more republican sample than we see in national polling right now. But with that in mind, the winner of this debate was Joe Biden, among these debate watchers. Fifty-three percent said Biden, 39 percent said Donald Trump.
And I also want to show you, though, how that compares to the first debate. Joe Biden didn't win this debate by as much as he won that first debate, according to debate watchers. Remember, it was 60 percent to 28 percent back in September there. Now, it is 53 percent to 39 percent. I also want to show how their favorable ratings changed or didn't from going into the debate until after the debate. Take a look at this. Look at Biden's numbers. Before the debate, among this group, he had a 55 percent favorable rating. After the debate, it is 56 percent, basically the same. Donald Trump, 42 percent favorable rating before the debate, 41 percent after the debate.
So, I think that argues that this debate probably did not change much, that the trajectory did not change much at all in this debate.
We also asked about the attacks, Jake, on the candidates. Were Donald Trump's attacks on Joe Biden fair? Were Joe Biden's attacks on Donald Trump fair?
Take a look at this. Biden's attacks on Trump, 73 percent said, yes, they were fair, only 26 percent, a quarter of debate watchers, said, no, they weren't fair.
Very different results when you ask about Donald Trump's attack on Joe Biden. Look at this. It's about split in half. Fifty percent said, yes, Trump's attacks on Biden were fair, but 49 percent of debate watchers said, no, Donald Trump's attacks on Joe Biden were not fair.
So definitely, on the truth meter, the attack meter, it was a Biden advantage there. But again, those favorable ratings are not moving. To me, that suggests the race leaves this debate as it entered it, which right now, as you know, has advantaged Biden.
TAPPER: Remarkably stable race back in February, and now in October. David Chalian, thanks so much.
Let is talk about this. We should note, and Chalian noted this to us earlier tonight, not on TV, that it was, uh, I think 10 days before the election?
BASH: Mm-hmm.
TAPPER: Eleven days -- 11 days before the election, four years ago, when James Comey announced that he was reopening the Hillary Clinton investigation, and polls suggest that had a huge impact on the race --
BASH: That's right.
TAPPER: -- with a lot of late deciders going to Biden -- I'm sorry, going to Trump, instead of Hillary Clinton. We -- tomorrow is 11 days. Now, Donald Trump is doing everything he can to try to replicate the conditions, the atmosphere.
He doesn't have James Comey. He's trying to get Christopher Wray and Attorney General Barr, who, so far, have expressed reluctance. He doesn't have Wikileaks. He doesn't have Julian Assange.
BASH: And he is not running against Hillary Clinton.
TAPPER: And he is not running against Hillary Clinton.
BASH: That is the biggest difference.
TAPPER: But he is trying to make Joe Biden into Hillary Clinton, saying that he's corrupt. I mean, he is trying to -- what I was going to say was he doesn't have Wikileaks.
BASH: Right.
TAPPER: He is trying to get the director of national intelligence and Rudy Giuliani to come up with all sorts of oppo. There are 11 days to go. We will see what happens. But I'm not sure he can replicate what happened.
BASH: No, I don't think he can. But it is a very good reminder that it feels like the finish line is, you know, in sight right now and that might be true. But a lot can happen between now and then. It is a very different atmosphere.
Again, a very different candidate. Joe Biden isn't Hillary Clinton. There isn't the specter of a DOJ investigation that was already ongoing. And, you know, there are a lot of other factors that are different. But we still don't know. Look, folks, it's 2020.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: So, 11 days in 2020 could be, you know, an eternity in most other years.
PHILLIP: Yeah. And I think all of what you're saying is exactly right. But I keep -- I can't stop thinking about that focus group that we just saw.
TAPPER: Yeah.
PHILLIP: Every single person, pretty much, said the highest moment for them was Joe Biden talking about bringing the country together.
[23:55:05]
PHILLIP: It actually just really simplifies the dynamics in this race, in terms of where we are. The president is trying to make this race extremely negative. Joe Biden is trying to make this race completely the opposite of that, talking almost entirely about unifying the country.
And based on what these undecided voters said, that resonated with them in a real way. And I think that we have to really think about that right now. People are trying to decide who they want to lead the country for the next four years. They're not buying this idea that Joe Biden is a super villain. They want to do --
TAPPER: Well, outside of Steve Bannon's townhouse, who wants a more negative society right now out there? There's much more ahead of our debate coverage. We'll reveal another key moment that moved undecided voters. We're getting fresh results from our instant poll of debate watchers. And we're going to get the first reactions from the Trump campaign and the Biden campaign to their candidates' performances tonight. Stay with us.
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