Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Event/Special
CNN Debate Night In America: Cuomo & Lemon; Final Debate Delivers: Low Expectations From A Low Bar; CNN Fact Checker: Trump's Denial Of The Pandemic His Greatest Lie Ever; Coverage and Analysis of Final Presidential Debate. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired October 23, 2020 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. I'm Chris Cuomo along with my man, D. Lemon, Don Lemon. Our final post-debate extravaganza --
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Final.
CUOMO: -- of 2020.
LEMON: Final.
CUOMO: Well, I'll say this. Well, this was the last debate, right? And you did get to see both of these men for who they are. And Don and I both believe that the teams have pretty much been decided.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And it is time to play the game.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But you did get to see the best version of Donald Trump that you've seen in a debate.
LEMON: Low bar. Good morning to you. Good morning, Honest Abe.
CUOMO: "Who you calling Abe Lincoln? I never said I'm Abraham Lincoln, I didn't say that." Of all the things that he said --
LEMON: You said that he won't own, to that.
CUOMO: That was too much.
LEMON: I was like he was offended by that? Honest Abe. That was a good line, though. Don't you think?
CUOMO: I thought for Biden, it was a pretty good line.
LEMON: Purdy -- pretty.
CUOMO: And I thought that you saw the president -- LEMON: Wait, wait, wait. As you say, uncurb your enthusiasm. Pretty good --
CUOMO: Pretty.
LEMON: Pretty good.
CUOMO: Pretty good. I thought that it was good, that the format worked.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It worked well. And you got to see points of contrast between the two men. And it is very clear --
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: -- that this country will go in very different directions --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- based on who wins. I do think that Joe Biden had to deal with a very well thought out line of attack by the president about his son and him making money.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: The vice president kept saying no, no, no.
LEMON: But I've got something about that.
CUOMO: I'm sure you do.
LEMON: OK.
CUOMO: And the president was plagued by one single word tonight.
LEMON: What?
CUOMO: How?
LEMON: How. Oh, yes. We'll talk about that -- keep that word in mind.
CUOMO: Got it.
LEMON: But I thought the attack on the president's -- the vice president's family -- well, it's weird. Because you would have thought in this debate that Joe Biden was the president and Donald Trump was the vice president because Joe Biden was on the offense more, right? Like don't you think it was -- it seemed like role reversal, if you weren't actually -- if you didn't know?
But the other thing is that I think that you need like a secret code book to know what -- like a decoder book, sort of like definition -- like urban -- CUOMO: Like that Dakota ring --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- that would never come no matter how many comics you sent back?
LEMON: Or the sea horses that wouldn't work when you -- even (inaudible) sprinkled in there? No, but like urban dictionary, you needed like a conspiracy theory dictionary to figure out what Donald Trump was talking about.
Because it was a sort of a wink and a nod to the conspiracies that "Fox News" and that the Trump Campaign are making up or are talking about. But most Americans are like what is he talking about? And they really didn't care what he's talking about.
So I thought that part fell really flat. And I think it was good for the American people that it fell really fat -- flat.
Because they were concerned with, as you said, the "how," which this president didn't really have any good answers for.
How is going to find the 545 families, right? How is he going to fix health care, repeal and replace, as he's saying? You got the repeal part but what are you going to replace it with, right? How are you going to fix the economy?
And other "hows" like that we talked about before. How are you going to do a lot of things? Didn't really have an answer for it, did he?
CUOMO: Intentionally so. This president is your outrage personified. In the movie, "Snatch," they had a very famous character in it who talked about being a nemesis.
And he says, "Do you know what nemesis means? It is a righteous retribution of revenge manifested in the appropriate agent." In this case, Donald Trump.
He is making a lot of good points of what people are angry about.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: What they don't like, what they don't like about the system. What they don't like about the people in the system, what they don't like about what's happening with this country.
His problem is he's in a position of solving, he is not an animus advocate. And that's why "how" is a hard thing for him.
LEMON: Well, that's why I said the role reversal.
CUOMO: Especially with the pandemic.
LEMON: If you didn't know who was president, right? If you just sort of popped in here. CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Popped in, that's what -- go on, sorry.
CUOMO: Especially on the pandemic. Now I think on the personal attacks, this is just a battle of dissatisfaction. Because Joe Biden's saying to you, "Hey, it's not about his family, it's not about my family, it's about your family." Great line. Problem is it comes off like a dog.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Because Biden -- but to hear criticism about your family and making money you shouldn't and being corrupt from Donald Trump, it's like well, no matter how true it is about Joe Biden, you can't be trading down in terms of corruption.
LEMON: Yes. A good answer is like, Chris -- if you were Trump and I were Biden. Chris -- this way, let me see.
CUOMO: Now it works.
[01:05:00]
LEMON: Chris, really? You're giving me lessons or are talking to me about corruption? Have you looked in the mirror?
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Have you looked in the mirror? And you want to talk about kids; your kids are making money off of your companies around the world.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: Your daughter got patents and trademarks. You really want to go there, I don't think you want to go there. I think you probably should just shut up right now when your point comes to that.
CUOMO: But that's not who Biden is.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Obvious, look. We deal with people who are trying to --
LEMON: Then maybe it's better he didn't take the bait.
CUOMO: -- get things --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: -- (inaudible) on a regular basis.
LEMON: But -- sorry.
CUOMO: I don't know that he could take the bait any better, he doesn't have that particular skill set of quick one liners. I think Trump is better at that.
The question is how useful a skill is that when you're going to be president of the United States?
But I will tell you this. In politics, axiomatically, if you're in the lead which presumptively the former V.P. is in national polls --
LEMON: Do no harm.
CUOMO: Well, do no harm, you want a tie. He definitely got a tie tonight. But look, as you and I both agree, I think the teams have been decided.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And it's time to play the game.
LEMON: I do. As I've been saying to you for months now, who's not decided by now? But maybe there's some people in the middle that are shaky like I don't know if I want Trump, I know what he is; I don't know if I want Biden, I know who he is..
I don't know if that's undecided or I don't know. I don't even know who at this point would actually be (inaudible) --
CUOMO: I don't think the president hurt himself tonight. He lied a lot. So what?
LEMON: Well -- well, well, well.
CUOMO: He didn't express empathy about --
LEMON: I disagree with you.
CUOMO: -- the people separated from their kids. Of course he didn't.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: I don't know that he did anything unusual tonight that might upset his base.
LEMON: The only thing I watched -- and I was like OK, great, he got him there, he got him there, he got him there.
But the one thing I thought that really hurt him is when he said well, you know, that's because it's in cities that are run by Democrats and it's blue states and blue -- and I said oh, that isn't going to go over well.
Because what people want right now, quite frankly -- most people -- I'm not talking about the diehards, really far right and really far left.
People want unity in the country. They're tired of fighting with each other, they're are tired of looking upon each other with suspicion about who do you support? What do you think about this, what do you think -- they're tired of the lying.
They're tired of all of the vitriol. They are tired of people calling them names like libtard or trumptard. People are sick of that.
So when he said that, I said if Biden doesn't come back and say I'm the president for all people then he's lost this debate. Sure enough he came back and said that.
And I turned to my fiancee and said that was not good because people want someone who's going to be the president, most people, the president for all people. Not just people who live in red states, not just the people who voted for this president.
And I thought he did himself some real damage there last night. Not with his people but with the people he may be trying to win over --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: -- if that is possible. Or people who are on the fence or may have been thinking about voting for him. I think that really hurt him.
CUOMO: Yes, look, we agree. I'm saying if you are sick of it and you want unity, you're not voting for Trump anyway.
LEMON: You don't want it? Don't you want unity?
CUOMO: I'm saying if somebody wants unit.
LEMON: And I got -- I want unity but sense with it. Like I know that people are not all of a sudden going to come together. But at least there should be someone who is the president of the United States -- shouldn't the president at least be trying, Chris?
CUOMO: No, he's "us" and "them." This is definitional. This is more about culture than it is about policy in this country.
LEMON: You're right.
CUOMO: And he is "us" and "them."
LEMON: Yes, you're right.
CUOMO: Everything he talks about is in terms of "us" and "them."
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And if you're a "we" person, if you want more "we," it doesn't make any sense for you to be for him. Because that's what he speaks to.
What do you think? Should we throw some people some sound about what's going on?
LEMON: If they want to hear. I think they like hearing us, they heard enough from those two guys tonight. They know what's going on. But no, OK. I'm kidding.
CUOMO: Oh.
LEMON: Well, let's talk about COVID. Because I think COVID is the big thing right now. People don't know if they're going to be able to put food on the table because of this. People don't know if they're going to have a job.
CUOMO: COVID is the truth.
LEMON: And COVID is the truth. So if we can talk about when Biden talked about -- and it's S-100 on our sheet.
About the number of people dead by the end of the year and then the president's response to that. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT AND DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: 220,000 Americans dead. If you hear nothing else I say tonight, hear this.
Anyone who is responsible for not taking control, in fact, not saying I'm -- I take no responsibility initially. Anyone who is responsible for that many deaths should not remain as president of the United States of America. We're in a situation where there are a thousand deaths a day now, a thousand deaths a day. And there are over 70,000 new cases per day.
The expectation is we'll have another 200,000 Americans dead between now and the end of the year.
[01:10:00]
He says that we're learning to live with it. People are learning to die with it.
You folks home who have an empty chair at the kitchen table this morning, that man or wife going to bed tonight and reaching over to try to touch their -- out of habit -- where their wife or husband was is gone. Learning to live with it? C'mon. We're dying with it.
Because he's never said -- you see, he said it's dangerous. When's the last time -- is it really dangerous still, are we dangerous? You tell the people it's dangerous now, what should they do about the danger? And you say "I take no responsibility."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I take full responsibility. It's not my fault that it came here, it's China's fault. And you know what, it's not Joe's fault that it came here either. It's China's fault. They kept it from going into the rest of China for the most part but
they didn't keep it from coming out to the world, including Europe and ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: What happened, what did the president say? He said don't worry it's going to go away. It'll be gone by Easter, don't worry, the warm weather. Don't worry, maybe inject bleach. He said he was kidding when he said that but a lot of people thought it was serious.
A whole range of things the president has said. Even today. He thinks we are in control. We're about to lose 200,000 more people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When I closed, he said I shouldn't have closed and that went on for months. Nancy Pelosi said the same thing. She was dancing on the streets in Chinatown in San Francisco.
But when I closed, he said this is a terrible thing, you're xenophobic, I think he called me racist even because I was closing it to China. Now he says I should have closed it earlier. It just -- Joe, it doesn't work.
BIDEN: I didn't say either of those things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That is true. He didn't say that. He didn't say that he shouldn't have closed it. He did talk about xenophobia but not in terms of he shouldn't have done it. He said this xenophobic president, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's all context.
But still, I don't think this president had a good answer besides I did the best, I had a shut down. Because we know it wasn't a complete shutdown from people coming in -- a ban, or whatever he calls it. The China ban.
But I thought that was -- that part as well, the president did not do well on.
CUOMO: Him closing down China was the best thing that he's done to this point. And that is not a compliment. Because we've needed a lot of things, a lot more, than what happened with the travel restrictions in China and in Europe than has happened since. What we've needed since has been worse.
And those things were late and incomplete. To your point.
If this election is about the response to the pandemic, the president has big, big problems. Because he did say he takes no responsibility.
LEMON: None.
CUOMO: He said tonight I take full responsibility. No, you never have. And there are two reasons for that.
One, the question at the time -- to your point of context -- was for what was happening in the country in terms of response. And he said I take no responsibility. You have to own it.
He talks about when he shut down this country. He never shut down the country, he was against shutting it down. He didn't want states to shut it down. And that's why certain red
states lagged to their own detriment. If you want to play the "us and them" game.
His inability to own the response other than calling himself a wartime president, huge mistake that is plaguing us to this day. This is a virus, not a plague. But it is still here.
And he didn't say anything tonight, not one word, about what more or better he would do to help us get through this.
LEMON: Well, that's a problem though. But if you look at -- I was looking for the whole -- the xenophobic thing to give you the context of what he said. But --
CUOMO: Well, he didn't explain it well either. Biden.
LEMON: That's the thing. That's why I was looking for the exact same thing. But yes, you're right. But you will -- here's the defense from Trump supporters.
That they will say anyone who says that they would know -- this is Monday morning quarterbacking. Anyone who says that they would do something differently when it comes to the coronavirus, it's just Monday morning quarterbacking, it's not true, they wouldn't know.
Well, that simply is false. Because people have said in real-time what we should be doing --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: They've been talking about testing. What restrictions we should be placing on -- what protocol we should have in place. They had been saying it at the time, in real-time. And as everyone is saying it, this president is saying -- is refuting it and not doing anything about it.
CUOMO: Because they were all wrong too.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Anthony Fauci -- which no one calls him by the way.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: It'd be like calling my brother Andy.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Nobody does it if they know the person.
LEMON: Right.
[01:15:00]
CUOMO: "Well, Anthony Fauci was wrong then too, he said this was going to be gone." False.
LEMON: He didn't say that.
CUOMO: He said based on the current case flow --
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: -- we'll be fine. See, this is something the president doesn't get. And by the way, he's right not to get it. If you want to play politics, pure and simple, what I'm about to say is lost on everybody who wants to vote for him. Not because they're stupid, because they're sick of him.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: They're sick of his subtlety. But the idea of well, when Fauci said you didn't need masks, he was wrong and then he changed his position and he was right. People are sick of that because it sounds like doublespeak. But it happens to be the truth.
Tony Fauci realized this wasn't a virus that you get from contact, by touching things and then touching yourself, and that there was a scarcity issue with masks. So it was better off not to mess with them, leave them for the people who need them most. He adjusted that.
See, the president is right to question that because it looks weak.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: But long after Fauci and all the others knew this was going to be bad --
LEMON: But also, he wanted --
CUOMO: -- this president refused to change.
LEMON: -- to save masks for frontline workers.
CUOMO: Right. But as soon as you have to explain it --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- you lose it. LEMON: Yes. When you're explaining it. I will give you that.
CUOMO: And what the president has to face on that same score -- he's right. It looks bad for Fauci and the other people. But we all know the situation's changed and we know that he knew it changed too. Because he told Bob Woodward on tape.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: He told him things that he was telling us weren't true at the same time. And that's his problem.
LEMON: OK. So listen -- and I know what you're going to say as I was thinking about it. He says that New York City's a ghost town. I tried to get a cab the other day -- it wasn't for the reasons that you're going to say, so stop it.
CUOMO: I was going to say that.
LEMON: I knew what you're going to say. I couldn't. I'm like wait a minute, every cab that went by had someone in it. We tried -- we want to go to dinner, tables were full, people were out having dinner. People are shopping in New York City.
Is it the same New York as it was before? No, no. No city is. And New York City is thriving right now, it's humming along. Has New York city been hurt? Yes. Every city in the country has been hurt as well.
But for him to say in the city I love so much -- he doesn't love the city so much, he moved to Florida. Because New Yorkers didn't even vote for him, he lost his home town.
So for him to say that New York City's a ghost town, I was just waiting -- maybe Joe Biden is not here and he doesn't know. But New York city people, not a ghost town. Doing A-OK.
CUOMO: But know what? That works too. Fear sells.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Things are bad, things are bad in this country. Things are bad in New York; my brother's the governor of New York, he'll tell you himself. He's going to have big budget problems for years.
One of the things that gets too in the weeds too fast is -- and Joe Biden actually I think gave this answer better than any other answer in terms of policy. He said certain things in contacting and connecting with people who are in pain.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I think that shows who he is. But the states are dying and the federal government doesn't want to give them money to balance their budgets.
LEMON: Can we talk about -- can we play some sound on that?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Let's play some sound. So let's play, if we can, S-106 and S- 107.
CUOMO: I love code.
LEMON: Yes. Code. Code.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: All he does is talk about shutdowns. But forget about him. His Democrat governors, Cuomo in New York -- you look at what's going on in California. You look at Pennsylvania, North Carolina; Democrats, Democrats all.
They're shut down so tight and they're dying. They're dying. And he supports all these people. All he talks about is shutdowns. No, we're not going to shut down and we have to open our schools.
And it's like -- as an example, I have a young son. He also tested positive. By the time I spoke to the doctor the second time, he was fine. It just went away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I don't look at this in terms the way he does, blue states and red states. They're all the United States. And look at the states that are having such a spike in the coronavirus. They're the red states, they're the states in the Midwest, they're the states in the upper Midwest. That's where the spike is occurring significantly.
But they're all Americans, they're all Americans.
And what we have to do is say wear these masks, number one. Make sure we get the help that the businesses need that has -- money's already been passed to do that. It's been out there since the beginning of the summer and nothing's happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Listen, as I said everyone is hurting. But -- and listen, who doesn't want everything to open back up? Schools, the economy, every single business. But we've got to do it and we've got to be safe about it.
And whoever is the president can't only look out for red states if they're a Republican president or blue states if they're a Democratic president, they have to look out for all states meaning all citizens regardless of their ideology or political affiliation.
[01:20:00] CUOMO: Yes. And look, again, it is unsatisfying for people to hear answers about how hey, it's not as bad as it seems. Look, that's politics.
The president wants to say Joe Biden's the politician. He was every bit the politician on that stage tonight as Joe Biden. He has all of the skills, plus and minus, that people ascribe to politicians.
But look, here is the fatal flaw, OK. On this issue of pandemic, we have never seen a crisis handled like this one. Which is to say that the person in charge denied we were in crisis. The president says he closed down the whole economy and that's what helped then he says now we're not going to shut down, we'll never shut down, I'm anti shut down.
He can't have it both ways because he is in charge. All of those arguments and doublespeak work well when you are an insurgent when you're on the outside, when you're criticizing, when you're "us."
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But when you're in charge, you have to live by what you did and did not do. And there's no question that we're still suffering in ways that other countries didn't for one simple reason. Lack of adjustment and lack of aggression toward the problem.
LEMON: "I wouldn't change anything."
CUOMO: And he refuses to do it.
LEMON: "I wouldn't change anything." And, "I have a plan."
CUOMO: That's the same thing as the no responsibility thing.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's who he is. You'll take it as strength, I don't see arrogance as strength.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I see it as living in denial of your own weakness, is arrogance. And when you get the cross section of arrogance and ignorance that he has, you get yourself a problem. On this issue. If this election is decided by this issue, he's in real trouble.
Now the open question is obvious. Will it be about that?
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: I don't know.
LEMON: And if it's decided on the facts, he's also in trouble. And you've got some facts to talk about.
CUOMO: Good segue. LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: CNN's fact-checker in chief, Daniel Dale, joins us now. Overall assessment of truthiness on both sides.
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Well, Chris, we have a president who is running for reelection on a strategy of serial, deliberate dishonesty. And it's getting worse.
This debate, the version of Trump we got in this debate, was worse from a fact check perspective, from an honesty perspective than the Trump we got in that first debate even though he was more belligerent in the first debate.
His rallies are also getting more dishonest. And it's just a bombardment. Literally, his first sentence tonight was inaccurate. I don't know if I've ever seen that before in a debate. It takes work.
And, as you said, I think the most important piece of dishonesty we're getting from either candidate is Trump's repeated insistence that the pandemic is going away or rounding some sort of turn or corner.
This is getting worse and worse. And the president keeps saying it's getting better and it's about to vanish. This is just -- the magnitude, the importance, of this piece of dishonesty is just staggering to me.
Now, I will add that Biden was far from perfect. He had some false claims, he had some misleading claims and some claims lacking in context. So he shouldn't be absolved for any of that.
But, again, it's just -- apples and oranges, no comparison in the frequency and generally in the magnitude of the false claims from these two candidates.
CUOMO: Let's play a little sound as an example. I think one of big issues in terms of testing this president on what he's done, hasn't done. We'll start with immigration.
And the president's position on the 500-plus children who are separated from their families. Those family members were sent back and now they're having trouble finding them.
Here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Catch and release is a disaster. A murderer would come in, a rapist would come in, a very bad person would come in. We would take their name, we have to release them into our country. And then you say they come back. Less than one percent of the people come back.
BIDEN: Not true.
TRUMP: We have to send ICE out and Border Patrol out to find them. We would say come back in two years, three years, we're going to give you a court case, you need Perry Mason. We're going to give you a court case.
When you say they come back, they don't come back, Joe.
BIDEN: They do.
TRUMP: They never come back. Only the really -- I hate to say this but those with the lowest IQ, they might come back.
KRISTEN WELKER, "NBC" WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, MODERATOR: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: First fact check is he doesn't hate to say anything.
If anybody learned anything tonight -- I had so many people, Daniel -- this isn't in your bailiwick but just as an aside. Many people said tonight well, the president was much differently behaved tonight. He was much more cogent and he was calmer than he was.
Yes, that's because it's all intentional, my brothers and sisters. Of course he could be like this all the time if he wants to. All the bombast, all the cruelty, all the personal slights. It's not style, it's not that he doesn't get politics. This is who he wants to be.
When he wants to be somebody else, he can be. He does what suits him in the moment.
Back to the facts. Where does that stand in terms of catch of release?
DALE: So that claim is wrong. Trump has been claiming for years now that basically nobody shows up for their immigration court hearings after their release pending a hearing.
[01:25:00]
In fact, as of the latest data we have for 2018, it was 25 percent of cases were decided in absentia which means the person was not present to hear the decision. Which means that 75 percent were in court to hear the decision.
Now you can argue that 25 percent absent is too much. But that's not what the president says. He says it's 99 percent absent and Chris, that's not even close to true.
CUOMO: All right. Let's score both sides though. Biggest miss by Biden when it comes to the facts.
DALE: I think it was his claim about fracking. He accused Trump of lying for saying that he had opposed -- for saying that he opposed fracking. He said I never said I opposed fracking.
In fact, although Biden's actual written campaign policy position is not a ban on fracking, it's a ban specifically on new leases for oil and gas on public lands only, he did say during the Democratic Primary in 2019 and early 2020 that he was generally opposed to fracking. I think we have a clip of what he said to our Dana Bash in 2019, is
that right?
CUOMO: Yes, here it is.
DALE: We don't have the clip?
CUOMO: Oh, we don't?
DALE: We don't have the clip. I'm sorry.
CUOMO: I'll read it to you.
DALE: It's my fault. Yes, OK. Go ahead.
CUOMO: You want to read it to me. You have a nicer voice.
DALE: Yes. So we have it here. So Dana Bash said, "Thank you. Mr. Vice President, just to clarify. Would there be any place for fossil fuels including coal and fracking in a Biden Administration?" And Biden said, "No, we would work it out. We would make sure it's eliminated and no more subsidies for either of those either, any fossil fuel."
And so he was talking about a few different things there, it was kind of vague. But he did strongly suggest that he was generally anti- fracking forcing his campaign to come out and clarify over and over that in fact he's not proposing a full ban.
CUOMO: Look, it's on him to explain his answers clearly, fully and consistently. And if he doesn't, it will be held against him.
Thank you, Daniel Dale. You got a heck of a job on your hands when it comes to fact-checking.
DALE: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: But you know what, nothing matters more. Appreciate it, brother. You'll be back later on.
DALE: Thank you.
CUOMO: First, let's take a little break here. And when we come back, more analysis of what worked and where does it leave us? This was it. Now you've got to make your decision. Are you ready?
Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:30:11]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We're about to go into a dark winter, a dark winter. And he has no clear plan. And there is no prospect that there's going to be a vaccine available for the majority of the American people before the middle of next year.
KRISTEN WELKER, DEBATE MODERATOR: President Trump, your reaction? He says you have no plan.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think we're going to have a dark winter at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Well, lots of big moments including that one, of course, to discuss with the last presidential debate. Let's get some thoughts from really smart people. Three of the smartest people I know on politics. It's Nia-Malika Henderson, Mark Preston, and S.E. Cupp.
Hello one and all. We'll say good evening, but good morning to all of you. So let me just say this. Mark, I know you think that's part of the reason that Biden did well in the debate tonight, because of his honesty with the coronavirus.
MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
LEMON: You think that the president was not so honest when it comes to that. But at least, I hear people saying the president was trying to be somewhat positive about the time we are going into, and you are not buying that.
PRESTON: No. Not at all. I mean look, the fact of the matter was, with the clip we just showed right there, it's the closing argument for Joe Biden. I don't know much more that he would have to say at this point.
We are at a very, very bad point right now with the coronavirus. And what scares me Don, and I think it probably scares everyone else on this panel and yourself and Chris -- and just about anybody who has any kind of sense, that we are kind of giving up.
There are folks who are just buying into the idea of open up the economy, full-blown, don't worry about it. And I think that there was an interesting moment tonight, Joe Biden had a lot of interesting moments tonight but when he'd look straight into the camera and said to all the teachers out there, hey don't worry about it, only x amount of you are going to die. That was very compelling.
LEMON: S.E., so I got a note from someone saying why are we giving President Trump so much credit because he didn't behave like a zoo animal tonight? He was forced not to behave that way because they had to mute the mics on him and then his people told him, if he did not, you know, if he didn't calm down a bit, he was going to lose it. What do you think about that?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think we need to be rally careful with the way we described Trump's debate performance.
You know, by our own Daniel Dale standards, he lied more in this debate performance then in the quote,-unquote "crazy debate". And the bar is so low that it's on the floor. And so I get what we talk well, he was better this time. But that bar is so incredibly low, and I think we do a disservice when we talk about it in those terms.
This was a terrible debate for the president of the United States to get on a national stage, and then tell millions of Americans that COVID isn't so bad, and it's going to be gone soon. Winter's going to be fine. To look in the camera and express absolutely zero compassion for kids separated from families. I mean I could go on and on.
It was a terrible debate performance, and very, very sad for our country. so I do think our language around his performance matters.
LEMON: At least he was thinking though, Nia, and I'm doing what S.E. said I shouldn't do right here. But at least he was thinking -- you remember the low IQ part. I mean the very least, you remember the low IQ part? I mean I guess, it's like oh my gosh. But he did say, maybe I shouldn't say this, but he did say it out loud.
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: He did say it out loud. The president has been saying terrible, racist things out loud for many, many years. Particularly over these last many months.
You know I think he did well in the sense that he did, I think advance this argument about Joe Biden being in Washington, all of these years, and not being able to get anything done particularly on criminal justice, particularly on immigration reform. So those moments were good. Joe Biden, you're just a politician, you are all talk, no action.
But it turned around when Joe Biden looked into the camera and said listen, this isn't about our family. This is about you at home, and all of your struggles. And you know, you had Donald Trump essentially say listen, who cares about those families? You are being a phony by looking into the camera, and talking to Americans directly.
So I thought that backfired on him. Joe Biden had, I think, some good one-liners about this idea that he doesn't want to shut down the economy. He wants to shut down the virus. I thought that was good.
LEMON: Do you think he was clear enough on that?
(CROSSTALK)
HENDERSON: Listen, you know, Joe Biden is not the clearest talker and neither is Donald Trump. And he got himself into trouble, particularly down the stretch, because he gets a little tired down the stretch. In particularly got himself in trouble I think with his answer on fossil fuels and in the oil industry.
[01:35:03]
HENDERSON: So I think they're going to have to do some clean up on that. I think they already are doing that -- this one.
But listen, I think Democrats went into tonight seeing that these polls were tightening in some of these battleground states and I think, with that, this debate will probably continue that trend of tightening polls in these battleground.
LEMON: Let's continue on because you mentioned the racist stuff and then we're -- if we have time, we'll talk about the fossil fuels stuff.
Because he has the same refrain, any time someone brings it up, right saying that he's the least racist president and even first looking out in the room saying I can't see. He said that exact same thing to me in 2015.
For the undecide does this lineup -- that this line, I should say, help or hurt him. Let's listen and then we'll discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: As far as my relationships with all people, I think I have great relationships with all people. I am the least racist person in this room.
LEMON: Are you racist?
TRUMP: I am the least racist person that you have ever met. I am the least racist person.
LEMON: Are you bigoted in any way?
TRUMP: I don't think so, no. I don't think so.
LEMON: Islamophobic?
TRUMP: I'm the person -- no, not at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Ok. The first one was tonight, and then in 2015 same thing. I have -- listen, I've got to ask people are saying to ask me Nia when you talk about race, I'm not going to ask the African American person. I will later.
But I want to ask does that, for white folks who are out there watching that, do they believe it? Mark? S.E.? Do they -- Mark, go first.
PRESTON: No, no. As a white person, let me say, that I'm probably the least racist person watching tonight.
You know what's interesting?
LEMON: Well done.
PRESTON: No, I do think --
LEMON: Well done, Mark. PRESTON: -- this is important. I do think that this is important though. If you look at his debate performance tonight and how he answered questions, he clearly did not prepare at all for this.
And if you looked at Joe Biden, how he answered questions, he totally prepared. He knew what to say. He knew to keep it short. He knew not to say racist things.
And that wasn't the only racist thing that he said. He also said -- he also about folks coming back in, that he shouldn't really say this, but you know, basically, folks who come back across the border are stupid, you know.
LEMON: Come back to court, to show up for their show for the court hearing is that's -- low IQ.
PRESTON: Right. Right, right, right. Low IQ. And this is what he also said too Don, when he's talking about the HBCU, historically black colleges and universities, he said, you know, I like them. You know, I thought they liked me.
And it's just -- he was not talking in a way that was one-on-one with a person. He was describing them as all of these college administrators as one just big block. It was very, very telling.
LEMON: What do you think, S.E.? Did you buy it when -- what do you think when he says that I'm the least racist person alive.
CUPP: It's absurd. I mean it's an absurd claim. I think thought he's definitely convinced that that's true. They really can justify a lot of both his policies and rhetoric. And I think, they believe, that he is not coming from a racist place.
But I think anyone looking at this honestly, over not just the years he's been president, but his lifetime of doing racism, whether it is birtherism, or bigotry, xenophobia, Islamophobia -- I think anyone would have to acknowledge, no, a lot of what you have done, and said, has not just been a dog whistle, but a foghorn, to racists.
He has courted white supremacists, racist voters, and racist hate groups. To the point that, you know, the group I am looking at the most right now are white suburban women voters. I think they might actually end up deciding the next president.
And to them, to us, we hear and see the racism loud and clear. It is not coded, it is not a dog whistle. And I think that has been is part of what has turned so many of us off from Trump and the Republican Party.
LEMON: So Nia, you said cleanup on aisle one, and S.E. was shaking her head in agreement about fossil fuels, and oil and gas jobs. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Would he close down the oil industry. WELKER: It's false, it's false, it's false --
BIDEN: By the way, I will transition from the oil industry, yes.
TRUMP: Oh, a transition. A big statement.
BIDEN: It is big statement because I would stop --
WELKER: Why would you do that?
BIDEN: Because, the oil industry pollutes, significantly. I said, here is the deal.
TRUMP: That's a big statement.
[01:39:52]
BIDEN: Well, if you let me finish the statement -- because it has to be replaced by renewable energy, overtime. Over time. And I stopped giving to the oil industry. I'd stopped giving them federal subsidies.
You won't give federal subsidies to the gas -- excuse -- to the solar and wind. Why are we giving it to oil industries?
TRUMP: We actually do give to solar and wind and all right. We have one final question. And that may be the biggest statement in terms of business. That's the biggest statement --
WELKER: Ok.
We have one final question --
TRUMP: We have one final question , Mr. President.
BARTIROMO: Is he's going to be the oil industry.
Will you remember that, Texas?
WELKER: Ok.
TRUMP: Will you remember that Pennsylvania? Oklahoma?
WELKER: Vice President Biden, let me give you ten seconds to respond. And then I have to get to the final question. Vice President Biden.
BIDEN: He takes everything out of context, but the point, look we have to move toward net zero emissions. The first place to do that, by the year 2035, is an energy production. By 2050 totally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So listen Nia, he's not off on -- that's a democratic policy, right. I don't think that Democrats say that.
But it was at the right moment to say I talked with the president saying, you know, are listening Texas, are you listening Pennsylvania? Are you listening Oklahoma? It may have been very effective.
HENDERSON: Yes. I think it was. The Trump campaign, Donald Trump himself knew that that was a real moment. And you see Joe Biden say now well he really meant that he wants to gain subsidies. So in those states that you mentioned -- Texas, Pennsylvania.
Most of all, I don't think Joe Biden is really going to win Texas but some of those down ballot people in Texas and other states like Oklahoma. They're already having to distance themselves from the statement that he made. So that was a real flub.
Again, it was down the stretch. We know Joe Biden gets a little tired. But, you know this is where got to play error free every or ball so big so particularly in these battleground states that he's trying to win down the stretch.
LEMON: S.E. I know you want to weigh in on this, go ahead.
CUPP: Well yes, it was just messy. And what's unfortunate is Joe Biden has answered this question before and he's done it in a much neither way. He has talked about training people out of certain manufacturing jobs, and into new kinds of new jobs.
He has good answers for this, but yes, that was a very messy response, that opened a door that Trump walked right through.
And I could see -- I could feel some nervous campaign aides, sort of, you know hearts aflutter backstage, and in their offices when he said that.
LEMON: Well, that's it. Mark, you don't get to talk about this in this time. The ladies have spoken.
HENDERSON: The least racist person.
LEMON: The least racist person doesn't get the last word.
CUPP: He's just a white guy. He doesn't matter, obviously.
LEMON: You don't get to mansplain right now, Mark. Thank you all Good to see you all, I appreciate it.
So we're just getting started here. Our special coverage of the 2nd and final Trump/Biden showdown continues with another power trio. Plus, you know, Chris and me.
[01:42:55]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: This is not about -- there's a reason why he is bringing up making up all this malarkey. There's a reason for it. He doesn't want to talk about the substantive issues. It's not about his family and my family. It's about your family. And Your family is hurting badly. If you are making less than -- if you're a middle class family, you are getting hurt badly right now.
You are sitting at the kitchen table this morning deciding, well we can't get new tires revolve because we have to wait another r month or so . Or are we going to be able to pay the. Who's going to tell her, she can't go back to community college?
WELKER: You've got ten seconds.
TRUMP: That's a typica political statement. Let's get off this China thing and then he look, the family around the table, everything. Just a typical politician when I see that.
WELKER: Let's talk about North Korea.
TRUMP: I'm not a typical politician. That's why I got elected.
WELKER: Ok. Let's talk about.
TRUMP: Let's get off the subject of China and let's talk around sitting around the table.
WELKER: All right.
TRUMP: Come on Joe, you can do better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Yes. It's called empathy. Why don't we talk about that audit that's going on forever with your taxes that makes you think that you can't give them out. Because that's what your attorneys tell you.
Yes, I used to practice that kind of law. You could put it out right now if you want to. And in fact, the president as you'll remember during the election said to me originally that he thinks he's under audit because he's such a strong Christian.
Let's discuss the impact of this moments in what was a much better debate. Certainly for the President. And arguably for Joe Biden as well. We have Karen Finney, Anthony Scaramucci, and Mike Shields, not to put Mike and Karen under pressure.
But you've got a little catching up to do because Mooch may have had the line of the night so far. He tweeted out "Tomorrow starts the Scaramucci of the race, the last 11 days."
That was a very, very good line.
ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Just giving people a head's up.
CUOMO: Very well done, Anthony. And for that I'll reward you with first go. What was your take on what mattered most tonight? SCARAMUCCI: Well, I mean no change is what mattered most. I thought the president did well. You know, I always try to offer you a balanced commentary on him. He was coherent. He put the sentences together. He was calmer.
He did a lot of lying. He's always going to do a lot of lying but he did well on a relative basis. But he did not outmatch vice president Biden. And he did not sound as presidential as vice president Biden.
And if you look at the polls I don't think the polls are going to change because of that debate. And if you believe those polls in 11 days Scaramucci, the vice president will be the President elect of the United States.
CUOMO: Well Karen, Hypocrisy aside because nobody distracts from a main issues as well as this president does, he was coming after Joe Biden tonight about his son. And he knew what he was saying. He knew why he was doing it. Do you think he was effective? Do you think he hurt your candidate?
KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't think the hits landed. But before I get into that. I just have to say, Kristen Welker, brought girl magic, did a fantastic job. Let's make sure that's on the table.
CUOMO: The president agrees with you, by the way.
FINNEY: Now to your question.
CUOMO: He said during the debate and afterwards, I saw him mouthing to her good job, thank you.
FINNEY: -- which tells you a lot about how he knew he had to be on good behavior and that attacking a black woman on television was not going to be a good look.
I wrote a piece for The Daily Beast about how this is a habit for him.
Anyway, I do think that the fact that the president and some of my colleagues don't want to admit this, tone does matter. He still lied. But it does matter that on the face of it, he had a better performance.
[01:49:56]
FINNEY: I agree with Anthony that I don't think it changes the dynamics of the race. I also don't think that particular hit landed very well. It's convoluted if you have not been following it. It's also completely false and untrue.
And I just don't think it's a good look to be attacking people's children. I don't think that the voters who are, you know, still on the fence want to hear that kind of stuff. They wanted to hear a 2nd term agenda and they did not get that tonight.
CUOMO: Mike, let me get your take before we go to sound about -- I'm hearing from a lot of guys who support the president, men and women frankly, that this is who we needed him to be tonight. Mike.
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm sorry, I thought you were going to sound.
Yes, look, that sound you hear is Republicans, especially operatives like me, cheering across the country because this is what we needed the president to do and will help Republicans up and down the ticket.
You know, on the issues, we have an advantage, significantly on issues like the economy, they energy, and we want the just to articulate what his position is clearly. So that the voters will hear where he stands because once they get that from him, we do better. And I thought he did a great job tonight of actually articulating where he was on the economy. He mailed Joe Biden on things like the energy form him energy and on taxes and so for that alone, it is a huge win for Republicans.
CUOMO: Anthony, none of those issues mattered though if we can't get past the pandemic.
And this president made it very clear I thought subject to what Mike thinks of course. That he could never answer the question of how tonight, how we would get to anywhere better.
Schools have to open, yes. No blank. The question is how do get the schools open. How do we get businesses better. How do we avoid shutting down. He didn't have it.
Do the other issues matters if you don't sell voters on that first one.
SCARAMUCCI: So I believe they are. Listen, you know I'm a fellow Republican. I disagree with the president. I don't want him to get a second term because I don't think he's fit to be president.
And I think the reason he's not fit to be president is the way he's handled the pandemic. He's blighted out the science. He's politicized the mask using.
He has done things that no other person would do with that data or that group of experts. And as a result, of which he destroyed the economy.
So it's those reasons, Mike knows this. ok. He's not competent at managing the executive branch of the United States. And that's we rolled a health care crisis into (INAUDIBLE) a very steep economic recession. And I predict that he'll be voted out of office.
CUOMO: Karen, what you have to deal with is look, nobody could have done better on the pandemic. Nobody saw it coming. Trump did what he could. So largely state stuff.
You, you hate oil and for all the dreams of green, you can't kill the oil industry and it's what Joe Biden said tonight.
FINNEY; No, that's very fair. And I did think that was the one moment where it felt like, you know, are we making policy that we meant to be making. But you know, that being said, I think if you -- coming into this debate, if you are watching this debate I think again, you may be wanted to hear a second term agenda from Trump.
Biden was very effective in making the point that this is about character. And he had a number of moments where he talked about character, obviously he was empathetic as you mentioned coming in to the segment.
And again, just form what I am seeing and hearing from people who are still on the fence, talking frankly to some of those white college educated suburban women who voted for him who now just don't think they can do it again, I don't think Joe Biden's policy on oil is quite going to be what he said tonight, it's going to be the thing that changes the dynamics for Donald Trump.
And you did see -- look that doesn't mean that there's not going to be an ad, I am sure being cut as we speak against Biden and it's something you'll have to contend with for the next 11 days. But again, in terms of the dynamics of the race, I do think tonight was more about character than anything else.
CUOMO: Mike, the idea of listening to the issues, you know the advantage, you left COVID out. And My question is, is it a concern for you that the president, at one, point had a good laundry list of the externalities, the collateral damage in this country right now, because of COVID, mental illness, abuse of substances and people not getting elective procedures.
Illnesses not getting the attendance needed. And I thought that was very impressive that it showed a recognition of a set of problems that are mounting because of not dealing with the pandemic well enough.
[01:54:39]
CUOMO: He is right about the laundry list. Are you worried that, especially suburban voters, college-educated voters, may carry those concerns into the ballot against him?
SHIELDS: No, look. I thought this was his best defense of his COVID policy. There is a legitimate debate about shutting down or opening up when it comes to schools, when it comes to the economy, every governor across the country is wrestling with this. Every state legislature. There's a debate that's roiling the country.
And up until now, the president had not -- I have not seen as good as tonight as an argument on the other side of it. It's sort of like the media and the left has just decided we have to shut everything down, It's the only way to do anything to shut it all down. He put Joe Biden a position of being the shutdown guy and That was very successful because there are plenty of American regardless of their party that want a more balance approach to how it is that we tackle COVID and the economy at the same time.
The president's brand is the economy. That's what his strength is. It came across in the polling from CNN on the debate tonight. It comes across in the polling you look at. CUOMO: I hear you. I hear you about the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
SHIELDS: And he made the debate COVID into an economic success for him tonight.
CUOMO: I hear you about the economy. We're out of time. I appreciate it. We're going to have plenty of time for conversation going forward.
But I will tell you this. We all know it's disingenuous to separate the two. If you don't deal with the pandemic, you can't deal with the economy. And the reason we have to shut down, it was interesting to hear the president tonight on one hand say less, and we shut down the biggest economy in the world because we had two to fight the virus. Then he said later on, we will never shut down. You can never shut down.
can't have it both ways. If people take it that way, and if the opponent frames it that way, big ifs, Karen Finney, thank you. And you know what, shame on me. I am always shy to talk about the moderators, because I don't want to make it about the media. But you are right.
We have to take moments where we see things that we aren't used to seeing and praise them as praises do. And it is tonight.
You are right about Welker.
Anthony Scaramucci, line of the night, and you are handsome.
Mike Shields, always appreciate it. You look at with the glasses. What do you say we keep and you look good with the glasses. Let's be honest.
All right. What do you say we keep this this coverage going? We've got more for you. Next
[01:56:41]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
