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CNN Live Event/Special
Biden Rejects Trump's Comparison To Bernie Sanders "He Thinks He's Running Against Somebody Else"; Trump And Biden Battle Over Russia Claims; Trump And Biden Clash, In Tense, But Calmer Final Debate; Trump: "I'd Like To Terminate Obamacare" Vows To Protect Those With Pre-Existing Conditions. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired October 23, 2020 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CROSSTALK)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Welcome back. What -- you're trying to steal my lines. What does it say right there?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: It wasn't me.
LEMON: Who was it?
CUOMO: It wasn't me.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Who was that? I can't hear anything. Are you talking? It's not working.
LEMON: Go on. You want to be going.
CUOMO: No, no. I'm sorry. I didn't say it wasn't me. But, go ahead.
LEMON: See? I have to save him all the time.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: From myself.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: This is our special post-debate coverage here on CNN, the final one of 2020. Hello. I'm Don Lemon. And you know that guy right there. What's your name again?
CUOMO: Huh? Franklin.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Abraham Lincoln. (LAUGHTER)
LEMON: That's Abe Lincoln right there. I got to say, though --
CUOMO: I never said I'm Abraham Lincoln.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Oh, really? Is that what you take offense to?
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: I can't believe you said I said I'm Abraham Lincoln. I didn't say that.
LEMON: Well, you -- you said that you've done more than possibly Abraham Lincoln.
CUOMO: Don't eyeball me when we're on TV.
LEMON: No, I'll put you on Abraham Lincoln.
CUOMO: Stick to your own box. Don't eyeball me. This isn't "The Brady Bunch."
LEMON: Here's a story.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: What a night, though, seriously. I -- all -- I mean, all in all, considering we had the debate that was -- wasn't a debate, it was just a yell fest, and then we had the debate that wasn't, and then turned into two town halls, competing, and then we had this tonight.
And so, actually, I thought we got some information out of it tonight. I like the format. I thought it was good. I thought them muting the mics, whatever, they didn't have to do much of that, I think it kept Trump in check, definitely, and it offered people a chance to hear from both sides. No?
CUOMO: Absolutely. And brava to the moderator, Kristen -- Kristen Welker.
LEMON: I don't think she did a good job.
CUOMO: I thought she did a good job.
LEMON: No, I think she did a great job.
CUOMO: Oh.
LEMON: See where I'm going with that? I thought -- I though she did a great job.
CUOMO: I thought she did a great job. It would have been shocking if we disagree. (LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: And also, you know, I had Karen Finney in the last block say, you know, and it does matter that it is an African-American woman --
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: -- you know, respects and remembrances to Gwen Ifill --
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: -- doing the job masterfully, as well.
LEMON: Well, I think she -- for me, this is -- and this is all positive, don't take it the wrong way when you write about it, she is a woman of color, a black woman. She is African-American and Native American. And how much more American do you get than being Native American and whatever else there is, right?
CUOMO: Mm-hmm.
LEMON: So I'm very proud of her. I don't know if she is watching. Kristen, if you are watching or if anybody in her family, I thought she did a great job.
CUOMO: How much more disadvantaged an American do you get than African-American and Native American? You know, I mean --
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: -- it's two representative samples of things that haven't been done right by this country. But she did a good job tonight and that is a really hard job. And I was wrong not to say it sooner. Usually, I don't want to talk about the moderator because let's keep it about them --
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: -- but you should remember it when it matters and this was one of those times. Now, couple other things I think people got introduced to tonight. Third time was a charm, in terms of these debates. You got to see both men for who they are. And when analyzing that in terms of the president, people know who Joe Biden is.
This president tonight showed you something very, very important, that I hope resonates. He was this way tonight because he wanted to be.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: The bombast, the cruelty, the interrupting, the nonsensical statements. That's because he wants to be that way. It's not that it's his style. It's not that he doesn't know. It's what he chooses to be in a moment. Tonight, he was more poised because that's what they told him he needed to be, Don.
LEMON: OK. OK. The second time, you were right. Not that he wanted to be that. He had to be.
CUOMO: Ah.
LEMON: Right? The other thing, I think that -- that's just who he is. I think tonight he had to be this or he would have lost.
CUOMO: But that means, those other occasions, he chooses not to be.
LEMON: Yeah. I don't disagree with you on that part.
CUOMO: He could always be civil. He could always be civil. He could always wait for you to finish, you know.
LEMON: But he doesn't.
CUOMO: He doesn't. Why? Because he knows it works better for him the other way.
LEMON: But I -- but I also think when -- when you're just talking to him and he is unguarded, he shows you who he is.
[02:05:03]
LEMON: You know, when you're sitting down in an interview and you ask him if he's racist, he knows -- I am the least racist -- well, I played it in the last hour -- I am the least racist person. That is his refrain. That's his go-to when it comes to racism.
Not an introspective, well, I'm sure, you know, growing up in America and living in America, there is -- there may be some (INAUDIBLE) we've talked about this and he said he can't do that for his base, right? And that I may have some unconscious bias as all Americans do, and we all need to work on that. You know, there is a line that you can use.
CUOMO: You've never heard him admit a weakness.
LEMON: No, never. No. And even when he says, you know, we're the -- we're the best, do you remember when someone asked him about testing negative, and he said --
CUOMO: Yeah.
LEMON: -- I tested positive --
CUOMO: Yeah, for not having it.
LEMON: -- and he could get it -- positively negative.
CUOMO: Yeah. He can't say bad things about himself.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Sometimes, I wonder if --
CUOMO: He'd never cut it as a Catholic.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: He can't say anything bad about himself. He's got absolutely no shame in his game.
LEMON: Well, he sure held that bible up. Remember, the bible he held up and you're like, wait, what side is that bible?
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: He needs -- he needs to open it.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: But, you know, what was interesting is he did what he needed to do tonight. What will it mean ultimately? You and I are of the same school of thought on this. Yes, a lot of people make their decision in the last two weeks of an election. I don't think this election.
LEMON: No.
CUOMO: I think we know who is on which side and now it's which side wants it more.
LEMON: And imagine, think about this. You don't have to imagine it. This is the truth. This is what's happening to millions and millions of people in this country. Tonight's debate didn't matter because they have -- they have already cast their votes.
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: The ballots are already in. So, the people, you know, the people who needed convincing or where they needed to perform really well for, that was a shrinking -- it's a shrinking pie, right?
CUOMO: It is small, but though against my own point, there are people who could have watched tonight and said, you know what, I wasn't going to vote for Biden but, or I wasn't going to vote for Trump but, so it was good for both of them to come out strong.
You know, presumptively, you say, when you're ahead in the polls, all you want is a tie. I think Biden certainly got a tie. You know, he's strong where he's strong and he's weak where he's weak and people know that. I don't think this changed that much tonight.
But it was because you got such a good sample representative of both men, you got the contrast, as well.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: And I think that will be helpful to both their causes.
LEMON: You know what's interesting? This is a little bit off but not really off topic.
CUOMO: Mm-hmm. LEMON: I was talking to someone the other day and they were talking about Joe Biden. They said, you know, well, you know, sometimes, he has to think about what -- and I said, you know, he's like -- he has -- he overcame a stutter. And then, the person had no idea.
And I couldn't imagine at this point in time, as Joe Biden has been on the stage for as long as he's been on the stage and he's been running now for, what, about two years or so, a year and a half or so, that someone would not have that information and think something otherwise about Joe Biden, that he -- they don't realize it.
Yes, he's overcome a stutter, but he still has some of the things that go along with that.
CUOMO: He still stutters.
LEMON: He still stutters, right.
CUOMO: Yeah. He doesn't get stuck --
LEMON: He doesn't get stuck.
CUOMO: -- the way some stutterers do. But look, let's be honest, telling somebody that you're a stutterer isn't the first thing you think to say about yourself. This is a society based on shame, all too often. You know, on judgment, all too often.
LEMON: But --
CUOMO: And there is stigma attached to it.
LEMON: It's also to a part of what's been going on in the country for the last seven or eight months. That people have been trying to figure out what do with their lives, trying to figure out how to feed their families, trying to figure out, you know, how they are going to stretch the meals and stretch the money that's not coming in.
And I think they've been -- it's been so -- it's been really hard for many people to pay attention because maybe if things were going OK and you just, you know, you had the luxury of having the job that you had or the income that you had coming in or not a relative who was sick or dying, that you may have been able to pay attention.
Usually, people don't pay attention till the end. But I found it fascinating that this person who was extremely informed had -- had no idea. Looked at me and said, what are you talking about? I said, well, he's a stutterer. He overcame a stutter. He said, well, that changes my -- the whole --
CUOMO: Right. And we also -- we also -- not you so much, you're actually pretty good at this. I have a tendency to assume much more intensity of interest about this stuff. Most people are passive when it comes to their politics. This is an unusually intense period.
But, you know, people live their lives. They do other things. They don't watch us, you know, 24/7. Some do. Most -- they watch you more, but they, you know, most don't do that. You know what I thought was interesting tonight?
LEMON: What?
CUOMO: A juxtaposition between the president being able to identify all the different tolls that the pandemic is putting on people's lives, to the point you were just making.
LEMON: Mm-hmm.
CUOMO: Increase in abusive behavior.
LEMON: Right.
CUOMO: Domestic abuse, abuse of substances, mental health problems, different health problems that aren't being attended to because of the strain on the health care system. And yet, he doesn't --
[02:10:01]
LEMON: Alcoholism, addiction.
CUOMO: Sure. Substance abuse is up and understandably so. But, he does not make a connection to that and the need for him to get off his ass and get more aggressive in taking on this pandemic.
I thought that was interesting. And it was tied up with a bow for me with what we started off with tonight, just so you think that Don and I didn't randomly decide to make fun of Abraham Lincoln. It came up in the debate tonight. And of all the things Biden accused Trump of, this is what he reacted to most indignantly.
(LAUGHTER)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nobody has done more for the black community than Donald Trump. And if you look, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln, possible exception, but the exception of Abraham Lincoln, nobody has done what I've done.
JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Abraham Lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we've had in modern history. He pours fuel on every single racist fire, every single one.
Started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying he's going to get rid of those Mexican rapists. He's banned Muslims because they're Muslims. He has moved around and made everything worse across the board.
He says to -- about the poor boys, last time we were on stage here, he said, I told them to stand down and stand ready. Come on. This guy is a dog whistle about as big as a foghorn.
TRUMP: You made a reference to Abraham Lincoln. Where did that come in? I mean --
BIDEN: You said you're Abraham Lincoln.
TRUMP: No, where did that -- no, no.
BIDEN: You said --
TRUMP: I said not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I've done for the black community.
BIDEN: And --
TRUMP: I didn't say I'm Abraham Lincoln. I said, not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I've done for the black community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Look at captain accuracy over here, all of a sudden.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: No one has done for the blacks.
CUOMO: With the possible exception of Abraham Lincoln. Imagine you saying --
LEMON: Wait, wait, wait (INAUDIBLE). If you produce this, you can find Joe Biden's face when he says that. You got -- Joe Biden does this.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Say, what?
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Can you imagine? It's like Don Lemon saying, maybe, with the exception of Martin Luther King, possibly --
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: -- nobody has communicated, as an African-American, the way I have.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: And, you know, he can -- he can say that, you know. And then he gets indignant. I never said I was Abraham Lincoln.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Of all the things that he lies about and gets called out about, this is the one he needed to correct.
LEMON: This is what I'll say. Everyone -- when he does that, everyone is like (INAUDIBLE) you know that (INAUDIBLE) what?
(LAUGHTER) LEMON: Has anyone ever told him -- seriously, shouldn't someone in his campaign say --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: -- you need to stop? Like, don't do that.
CUOMO: They only tell him more. You know, we've heard all these stories about people who try to keep him on the right track. Look, I have, again, you know, this weird time we're living on, paradoxically, while I am demonized, very often, by this president specifically, I have never had better access to a White House than I have to this one in terms of understanding what's going on around him from people who know him well.
LEMON: Because they call you and they tell you.
CUOMO: And they do not push him. He doesn't want to hear it. He doesn't trust them. And he believes his gut is better. And he then listens to people who are telling him he is doing well. He is focused 100 percent right now on the people who are telling him, we're doing better in Florida in early voting than we were doing last time.
LEMON: Yeah.
CUOMO: You're going -- you're going to do well. Arizona, we're a little worried about, but here in North Carolina, this is going to lead us to Pennsylvania. That's all he hears. And the messaging they tell him goes with it is all he'll follow today.
LEMON: Well, it's so easily provable about, you know, when he says he's done more for African-Americans. I mean, this is -- it's just -- you know it's ridiculous because when you think about it he likes to say, well, you know Joe Biden and Barack Obama didn't do anything.
Well, if you look at actually what is in the Affordable Care Act and pre-existing conditions, all you have to do is compare that to what's happening now with the pandemic, and look at the people who are contracting it and dying or coming in contact with this disease and dying proportionately higher than other people.
It is African-Americans. It is minorities and people who are on the front lines, people who don't have an access, as much access to the health care system. That is certainly something that is a positive for African-Americans.
And if you actually look at the unemployment rate, the trajectory of the unemployment rate, up or down, the longest decline in unemployment was under President Barack Obama.
This president simply kept it on track. For him to say that, I think that's why African-Americans get so annoyed when he says things like that because we know the truth. He is not pulling the wool over our eyes.
CUOMO: True. LEMON: We know what happened under the last administration.
[02:14:56]
LEMON: Who happened to come out -- listen, under a Republican president, pulled us out of the -- the biggest recession since the great recession, since the depression, and then to have that sort of job growth and then the rate go down, and then you want to take away something, an accomplishment, of the first black person who looks like me or every other black person around the country --
CUOMO: Desperately.
CUOMO: Yeah, they're not going to --
CUOMO: He wants to --
LEMON: Yeah, but they're not --
CUOMO: He wants to take Obama down desperately.
LEMON: We are not going to buy it. We are not going to buy it because we know the truth.
CUOMO: Well --
LEMON: You can sell that to your sycophants but you can't sell that to --
CUOMO: We'll see what happens with African-American men, specifically. With African-American women over 45, which is a big base for the Democrats, I don't know how much purchase he'll get there.
LEMON: I think that's -- listen. I am not buying that.
CUOMO: You don't buy it, either. You think it is talk but that at the polls, they won't do it.
LEMON: Listen, there -- look --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: No, no, there are outliers everywhere. We're looking at like three -- two rappers who are gazillionaires, right, and some (INAUDIBLE) oh, black man, they're going to (INAUDIBLE), no. And a lot of people who are talking on talk radio, they are going to do this. So a lot of those wives are going to sit around and say, are you out of your damn mind?
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Let me sit you down here. Our moms are going to be, like, boy, if you go and vote for -- don't come in this house because I'm going to disown you. You're not doing this. I don't believe it. I'm sure there are going to be some bamboozled who may go out and do that. But for the most part, it is not gonna happen, ain't gonna happen. Sorry. It's a good story. It is a good, you know, to write a copy and for people to talk about on TV, like me and you. But in the real world --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: -- in the real world, it ain't happening.
CUOMO: Well, I'll tell you what will be interesting to me.
LEMON: And let me just say one other thing.
CUOMO: OK.
LEMON: Before -- all those people that you hear on all of those channels, the conservative people and all of them, like, I'll find out. You know what that is? You know what that is?
CUOMO: What is it?
LEMON: That is the shortest line to the front. OK? Those are people who are sitting there on Fox News and everybody else, black -- oh, Donald Trump has done this. They don't believe that themselves. They're there because it is the shortest line to the front and it's a paycheck. OK?
And they probably could not make it on some other channel that -- where people live in reality and people live in facts. So, they say, well, guess what? I'm going to go over here because they need a black person who's going to say what the conservatives want, who's going to give me a paycheck and have me on their show, I'm going to be famous, and people are going to know who I am.
That is exactly what that is, even if they are not conscious of it. Because if they really, really sat down and looked in the mirror, they would see that they are being used.
CUOMO: Well, 11 days. Anthony Scaramucci, with the line of the night, he called it. We're in the last Scaramucci of the race. The last 11 days. Remember, he lasted 11 days as (inaudible) the White House. We're going to see. And again, I know that people always tell you, this election matters the most. Hype aside --
LEMON: This one does.
CUOMO: This is an unusually definitional election because the proposition is just about, look, the idea of whether or not this country really is going to suffer each other's differences for the sake of diversity or not and see each other as us and them and have policy along those lines.
The president made it very clear to you tonight, he is not a uniter. He doesn't believe it. He wants to punish states that are run by Democrats because he doesn't like the job they're doing.
LEMON: It's terrible.
CUOMO: He named my brother by name.
LEMON: Terrible.
CUOMO: He talks about red and blue and us and them and Muslims and Christians and brown and white. That's what he does. And we'll see what wins.
LEMON: And very fine people on both sides, and you know, let's jail the Central Park Five and President Barack Obama was not born in this country and what do you have to lose and where is my African-American and -- all kinds of things. And that's why I say, if you want to be bamboozled and think that --
CUOMO: Led astray? Run amok?
LEMON: If you want to believe that a person who did and said all of these things, who is trying to take away your health care, the pre- existing conditions, all those things, if you believe that, then I got a bridge to sell you --
CUOMO: You've been had.
LEMON: -- or I'm going to get the license plate --
CUOMO: You've been took.
LEMON: -- of the turnip truck that --
CUOMO: Bamboozled. LEMON: -- you just fell off, so that I can report them --
CUOMO: Led astray.
LEMON: -- to the authorities.
CUOMO: Run amok.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: It's from Malcolm X.
LEMON: Fooled. Crazy.
CUOMO: You've been had. You've been took.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Led astray. Run amok. Best I can do. Vis-a-vis Denzel Washington.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: I will tell you something after this --
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: -- that I want to tell you, that you will be happy that I didn't say it. OK.
(LAUGHTER)
CUOMO: Go ahead.
LEMON: And that's a fact. And here is a fact checker in chief, Daniel Dale, to get Chris Cuomo out of trouble.
[02:20:00]
LEMON: He's back with us.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Hey, Daniel. How you doing? Are you hoarse yet? Do you have laryngitis from all of this?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: No, I'm good to talk to you for at least like two to three more minutes.
LEMON: OK. So, here is -- this is something that was really -- that is really serious, an awful story that I reported earlier this week. I think it was last night that we reported this. In the midst of all of this that we are finding out, that there were these -- there are these 545 migrant children who still aren't returned or reunited with their families.
The president dodged the question, suggested that they weren't actually brought over by their parents. And then, the moderator had to keep asking him. How are you going to reunite these families? Here it is. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: These 500-plus kids came with parents. They separated them at the border to make it a disincentive to come, to begin with. They -- real tough, were really strong. And guess what? They cannot -- it's not -- coyotes didn't bring them over. Their parents were with them. They got separated from their parents. And it makes us a laughing stock and violates every notion of who we are as a nation.
KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Let me ask you a follow-up question.
TRUMP: Kristen, they did it. We changed the policy.
WELKER: Your response to that?
TRUMP: They did it. We changed --
BIDEN: We did not --
TRUMP: They built the cages. They -- who built the cages, Joe?
BIDEN: Let's talk about --
TRUMP: Who built the cages, Joe?
BIDEN: Let's talk about what we're talking about. What happened? Parents were -- the kids were ripped from their arms and separated. And now, they cannot find over 500 sets of those parents and those kids are alone. Nowhere to go. Nowhere to go. It's criminal. It's criminal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, Daniel. Just the facts.
DALE: So, Biden was right here and Trump was wrong. These particular children were not brought to the United States by so-called coyotes, who are people who are paid by parents or paid by people in other countries to illegally bring others across the border.
Biden was right. These children were brought by their parents. They were separated. And now, the parents and children remain separated. They can't find the parents.
Now, there are -- Trump also claimed, during the debate, that the administration is working hard to find these parents. Experts say that's not actually true. They've been very reluctant to hand over information about the situation.
Now, the part of this that was true, as Trump said, you know, there were cages built under the Obama administration, in a very different situation. During influx of undocumented -- unaccompanied minors, they did build these facilities with chain-link fences -- you can call them cages -- to house some of these young people.
But Trump's suggestion, elsewhere in this debate, that he simply inherited the separation policy, he said, they did it, we just took it and we changed it, is wrong. It happened, occasionally, under Obama, under specific circumstances, like parents charged with serious crimes.
Trump's administration is the one that made it routine. They implemented a routine policy of routinely separating --
LEMON: Separating, right.
DALE: -- children and parents at the border. And so, it's very much apples and oranges. Trump's suggestion is just not right.
LEMON: Yeah. Well, he likes to say, well, you built the cages but it doesn't explain the difference between what is going on now. They are wilfully and doing it systematically or had bee, now they changed their policy, of separating children from their parents.
And the evidence of it, if one plus one equals two, well, this now equals 545 families that they cannot find the parents -- they cannot find families for. Those are the facts.
So, listen. Daniel, Trump also tried to hit Biden with Russia. He claimed Biden received $3.5 million from Russia and that it's meddling to defeat him. And then Biden hit back. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Joe got three and a half million dollars from Russia. And it came through Putin because he was very friendly with the former mayor of Moscow. And it was the mayor of Moscow's wife. And you got three and a half million dollars.
BIDEN: I have not taken a penny from any foreign source, ever, in my life. We learned that this president paid 50 times the tax in China, has a secret bank account with China, does business in China, and in fact, he is talking about me taking money? I have not taken a single penny from any country, whatsoever, ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So what's the truth about Biden and Russia?
DALE: So, Don, this is an example of what I think of as Trump- flation. It is how he takes a previous claim, often false, and inflates it, you know, beyond the original recognition.
So the initial allegation, which has denied by Hunter Biden, this allegation made by Senate Republicans, is that Hunter Biden, Joe Biden's son, received 3.5 million in a business deal/consulting deal with the wife of the late mayor of Moscow.
Now, again, Hunter Biden said he didn't get this money, not affiliated with the firm and didn't get the money. But regardless, that's not what Trump said. Trump said that Joe Biden got the money and it came through Putin. There is no allegation from Senate Republicans.
[02:25:00]
DALE: There is no allegation from anyone, as far as I know, until tonight, that Joe Biden received this payment. So this is, again, the president taking a kernel of something and turning it into something much bigger and more dramatic that's just not true.
LEMON: This is going to get worse over the next 11 days, Daniel. And I think that we are going to have to be dealing with -- actually, you may need a helper. And I'm serious with that.
DALE: We have a team.
LEMON: But this is going to get worse over the next 11 days because there are so many things out there. I think Jake Tapper pointed to this earlier, about sort of the -- the conspiracy theories that are being propagated on the right that weren't necessarily talked about in this debate, not necessarily being talked about in legitimate media, but they are certainly doing it in conservative media because the president is behind.
DALE: Yeah. It's getting worse and worse, Don. I mean, the president himself is getting worse. I counted 66 separate -- not even counting the repeats -- separate false claims from the president alone between Friday and Sunday. That's one of the most dishonest periods of his entire presidency.
Social media like Twitter is just a disaster zone right now with misleading clips and images. Just total bad-faith tweets. And so, yeah, the information climate is just absolutely terrible. And frankly, a lot of it comes from the president himself.
LEMON: Daniel Dale, thank you, sir. Really appreciate it. There's more to come as our special coverage of the final presidential debate continues right here on CNN late night, after dark.
[02:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When he talks about a public option, he's talking about destroying your Medicare, totally destroying --
BIDEN: Wrong.
TRUMP: -- and destroying your Social Security
BIDEN: He's a very confused guy. He thinks he's running against somebody else. He's running against Joe Biden.
I beat all those other people because I disagreed with them. Joe Biden he's running against.
And the idea that we're in a situation that we're going to destroy Medicare, this is the guy that the actuary of Medicare said if, in fact -- Social Security -- if in fact he continues to withhold his plan to withhold the tax on Social Security, Social Security will be bankrupt in -- by 2023, with no way to make up for it.
This is the guy who's tried to cut Medicare. So, I don't -- I mean, the idea that Donald Trump is lecturing me on Social Security and Medicare. Come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: One of the stronger moments for Joe Biden tonight. Again, the president is no longer and insurgent. He can say that's a politician, I'm not a politician. Yes you are. Health care, and not having a plan for it, and being in court right now trying to undo pre-existing condition protection is not a good look, when you say will always protect people.
So how did that play? What did it mean in the overall matrix of this election, 11 days out? Nia-Malika Henderson, Ron Brownstein the Professor and Paul Begala haven't seen you in a minute, good to see you brother.
Alright, so, Nia-Malika, on balance, as you know, Don Lemon and I are on record as both believing that people made their choice. We know who is on what team it is now time to play the game. Do you believe that there was needle movement tonight? Maybe because of early voting, and people can vote, basically, any day they want to in many states that matter?
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You know, listen, I think this race is going to tighten down the stretch you see some of that. You talk to Democrats, they see some of, that in the battleground states, and I think this probably helps Donald Trump, a bit in trying to close this race.
I think the problem he has is that there is a large gap, and particularly these demographics, college educated, white voters both men, and women, and seniors, right? And that's why that clip that you played with Joe Biden talking about Medicare, talking about social security, it was such a strong movement for him.
You think about a state like Florida, 21 percent of the electorate in 2016 was seniors, same percentage in Pennsylvania so those kinds of lines, where he goes after the president on issues that are so important to seniors, I think, a really good moment for him.
We also understand that overall this is going to be a race about the Coronavirus, and, to a certain extent, character too. Character being how the president comports himself. Some of the race baiting he does as well.
So, on those two big issues, I don't think the president helped himself very much but I think you know sort of the wobbly Republicans they have something sorted to cheer about maybe some of those independents will start to shift, in some of these battleground states, back to the president.
CUOMO: Ron, looking at tonight through the lens of the demographics that matter to each candidate, what did you see that mattered?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I erase some of the take from Nia. I mean, I think that the posture of the race is very settled. It is deeply engraved at this point. Very clear demographics. Joe Biden doing a little better, but significantly at the margin better among non-college whites that Hillary Clinton.
Biden having the performance best performance probably ever for Democrats and college whites, and in doing strongly but as you noted with the potential of some slight erosion among African-American, and Hispanic men, but are overall quite strong among minorities.
I ain't really seeing anything to significantly change. I thought the president had a more coherent argument than he had in the first debate, and I realize that is a low bar. But I mean, the argument is look of all these things, we're going to do all these great things how come you haven't done them in all of these years.
But he didn't have a more coherent plan. And you know the fact is 60 percent of the country disapproves of the way it's handling to Coronavirus, is the central fact in this, race and in the first 10 minutes of this debate, he made very clear, he is not going to take it more seriously, he is going to continue to wish it away. He really does have no plan to do anything differently, as the U.S. heads into Joe Biden I think accurately described as a dark winter.
CUOMO: Paul? How did you feel about it tonight, in terms of what you need to do to win this election?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think Joe Biden took a big step towards the White House tonight. I don't think that Trump did anything to shake up the race; in fact, I think Joe framed it up well. His biggest vulnerability, Trump's last strength is the economy. I don't think Trump pressed his case on the economy very effectively. He could have said here are the four things I can do, right?
[02:35:00]
BEGALA: I'm a, builder I have got this COVID thing. I get out of the, way I can rebuild the economy. He didn't do that. I thought Biden; this frame of progressive populism that Joe used was great Scranton versus Park Avenue.
You know as a Democrat, I love hearing that. And Trump didn't know quite what to do. It was both Joe's best moment, and the president's worst. When Joe said middle class families are sitting around the table, and they talk about my tires are going bald. I don't know if I can afford to replace them, and still pay for the tuition at community college.
If anybody comes from a middle class background, we had those conversations with our moms and dads. As President Bush used to say, it resignations, Trump's answer was a - trust fund saying, you just sneered at it.
This is real life to people, much more than all of this Bright Bard secret decoder ring conspiracy nonsense that Trump was spouting. I couldn't even follow; it and I do this for a living.
CUOMO: The laptop from hell. Or, the hard drive from hell. Whatever it is that is what Rudy Giuliani is calling what has been found, suggestively about Hunter Biden? The president is all in on that, as one would expect. Seeing how it is coming from his lawyer? However, the problem is that--
BEGALA: He's also movie star, I'm sorry to interrupt, but it isn't Rudy - a big movie coming, out I heard.
CUOMO: You're talking about the borough thing. I won't touch it.
BEGALA: You know, it's called - because I'm going to watch it.
CUOMO: Yes, I know you.
BEGALA: I can't wait because I admire Rudy, and I really want to see him on the silver screen.
CUOMO: I think that Rudy has got his own issues. But the idea that his lawyer Nia-Malika is hanging out with someone who he knows, has been identified, as a Russian operative, and is parroting exactly what that person once said is interesting and it made its way into the debate. Here is what the president was selling, as hard as he was selling anything. I'll play the sound then it is all you my friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The laptop from hell.
BIDEN: Nobody --
WELKER: President Trump, we're talking about race right now and I do want to stay on the issue of race. President Trump --
BIDEN: But then I have to respond to that.
WELKER: Please, very quickly.
BIDEN: Because look, there are 50 former National Intelligence folks who said that what this he's accusing me of is a Russian plan. They have said that this is -- has all the -- four -- five former heads of the CIA, both parties say what he's saying is a bunch of garbage. Nobody believes it except the -- his and his good friend Rudy Giuliani.
TRUMP: You mean the laptop is now another Russia, Russia, Russia hoax? You've got to be --
BIDEN: That's exactly what -- that's exactly what was told.
TRUMP: This is where he's going. The laptop is Russia, Russia, Russia?
(CROSSTALK)
WELKER: All right. Gentlemen, I want to stay on the issue of race.
TRUMP: You have to be kidding. Here we go again with Russia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: But the Marsha, Marsha, Marsha version of Russia, Russia, and Russia by the way Nia-Malika. And look, again, irony abounds in all of these situations the fact that the president wants to dismiss things is may be a function of Russian conspiracy or anybody's conspiracy when his - again his lawyer is deep with a guy who is known to be a Russian operative and that's not the problem.
He said he is passing the same information. But as we know this stuff is blown up on the internet. There is a lot of reporting that is yet to be done on it. Joe Biden dismisses it, what do you think it's net positive, negative was tonight?
HENDERSON: You know I thought this is a big flop for this president. Listen, the reason he agreed to do this debate, in many ways, because he wanted to get off this Hunter Biden stuff into the mainstream but it is so hard to follow of course all of it is not verified.
You know he's talking about getting money, the laptop, and so what was interesting was that Biden himself brought it up. And then you had Donald Trump, sort of walk into it and try to lays this whole conspiracy theory about Hunter Biden throughout this debate.
And I thought Joe Biden had a really strong moment when he said. Listen, this isn't about your family, or my family. It is about the American families out there that are struggling mightily, economically in terms of their health, care costs, sending kids to school.
So you know this is - you know this is a real miss I think for this president. But I think it will continue to churn in the right-wing chattering class. In many ways, a - of what they try to do with Hillary Clinton in 2016, with her emails, and all sorts of things.
But this time, Americans are really focused on what is going on with their personal lives, with COVID in particular, in the failures from this president.
CUOMO: We will see. I'm out of time for this segment, but I look at each of your faces, and I'm trying to remember these moments because this election is going to be very definitional about having a little bit of bush lit myself there, about which direction this country is going to go?
[02:40:00]
CUOMO: So I'm trying to remember these moments we're 11 days out a Scaramucci away from the election is Anthony Scaramucci put out on Twitter tonight, a 11 days. Nia-Malika Henderson, Ron Brownstein and Paul Begala we're living history let's see what is to be rigged? Let's pick it up on the other side with some more power players, and a man known as D. Lemon.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What we'd like to do is terminate it. We have the individual mandate, done. I don't know that it's going to work. If we don't win, we will have to run it and we'll have Obamacare but it'll be better run. But it no longer is Obamacare, because without the individual mandate it's much different.
Preexisting conditions will always stay. What I would like to do is a much better healthcare - much better, we'll always protect people with preexisting. So I'd like to terminate Obamacare, come up with a brand new beautiful healthcare always protecting people with preexisting conditions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: All right, well let's get some thoughts on all that. Jennifer Granholm is here Amanda Carpenter, Mike Shields as well. Good evening. Good morning. OK, Amanda, seriously, did you understand what he was saying there?
AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: Sort of, but you know we could talk about the policy this debate but this debate wasn't about policy. [02:45:00]
CARPENTER: This debate marked the complete utter total collapse of President Trump's strategy against Joe Biden, which was to smear him with all this nonsense about Hunter Biden's finances. That collapsed tonight, OK?
He's been trying this for years. It's what he got impeached for. And he couldn't land a single argument on Biden about it. So yes, his campaign is going to keep pushing this, but I think everyone that was on this train needed to look at what Donald Trump did tonight, and he just made a mess of it. And so I think we need to stick that come conspiracy into the ground on Halloween, put a headstone on it, and dance all over it.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Amanda! Well, Mr. Shields, Amanda came in hard. What do you think of that? She's not even talking about the health care, she came in hot and she is got her at own agenda.
MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The fact that she led off with that means that it may have served some purpose because up until three days ago, a lot of people in the media weren't even talking about this story. And now she wants to talk about it so much - Hunter Biden.
CARPENTER: I've written about, I have watched this conspiracy theory. It is so much junk and you know it, Mike, you know it.
SHIELDS: Keep talking about it. I mean, you are talking about Hunter Biden. That's what the president wanted you to be doing. So that's exactly.
LEMON: People don't really know what it is.
CARPENTER: You can't explain it Mike, you wouldn't touch it with a 10 football.
LEMON: That's what I said earlier tonight that people you needed a decoder book to try to figure it out. Jennifer, let me bring you in here. What do you think of tonight? I started off with health care, because and I think it's important to talk about it, but look, you and Amanda Carpenter, talk about whatever you want. I think thought it's important to talk about it especially we are dealing with, we're in the middle of a pandemic right now.
JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Of course. Of course and of course, yet again, the president does not have a plan. Now he's going to wait until after the Supreme Court knocks Obamacare out.
But in the meantime, what happens to all these people who would be losing their health care in the middle of a pandemic? I thought that Joe Biden on this health care series, whether it was COVID or health care in general, was so clear. He came out of the box. There are 220,000 people who have - who have died. We have got now 1000 people a day. We've got now who are dying, almost 70,000 people. He had all of these numbers that were right on the money, and the whole point about the economy which Donald Trump keeps coming back to.
First of all, Donald Trump had no empathy for any of the 220,000 people who were dying. And to me, if you step back and you look at this whole debate and who expressed a desire to come through this and an understanding of where real people were, it was obviously Joe Biden.
And Donald Trump had no shred of empathy. And Don, you and I have talked about our mothers. So I call my mom, who is to let people know, she is 85-year-old, lives in the suburbs, a Former Republican I said, I didn't even have to - I call her mom, did you locked. He's a horrible person! Those were the only words.
And what do you mean, mom? She said like, he is horrible! She's talking about Trump. And she cannot stand him, because he does not have a single shred of empathy. And that's what I think a lot of people who are not in the way who - she did not know what the heck he was talking about laptops and China and Russia and all that. She didn't even understand what they were talking about, she did get that he had no empathy.
LEMON: I didn't quite understand when he said - when he talked about, well, you know, I'm going to the pre-existing but the individual mandate but then I'm going to coming up with a beautiful health plan.
Mike, listen. I know you're straight shooter OK. He has been saying he is going to come up with the health care plan since 2015. He's been saying, it's going to be shortly, it's going to be two weeks, it's going to be a month, it's going to be soon, it's going to be - come on, where the lie?
I'm not lying here Mike. Especially now during a pandemic, does that ring even more hollow, because people want to know, what's the plan? And so far he has no plan.
SHIELDS: Yes, look. I don't think Republicans have done a great job of coming up with an alternative to Obamacare. That has been a huge problem for them. We ran on getting rid of Obamacare and replacing it and the replacing part was very difficult.
I think the president's better message on health care is to talk about the Biden health care plan, which would get rid of private health insurance and is closer to single payer Medicare for all healthcare plans.
LEMON: I'm going to have to mute your mic Jennifer.
(LAUGHTER)
GRANHOLM: Sorry, sorry. You're just doing the same thing the president is doing.
LEMON: --I'll give you time to respond. Mike, go on, finish yours.
SHIELDS: I respectfully - interrupt you. I must have hit something that you don't want me to say if you interrupt me like that because that to me what I'm trying to tell you is that would be a better message for the president than - what he said, so I'm sure you might agree with it at least part of that.
[02:50:00]
LEMON: Go ahead, Jennifer.
GRANHOLM: Can I?
LEMON: Yes, yes you can. Your mic is un-muted.
GRANHOLM: Mike, I don't understand why you are repeating the lie. Joe Biden's plan is not to eliminate private health insurance. As he said repeatedly tonight, I ran against that idea, and I want it in the primary. He wants to allow people to keep the private sector plans. But he also wants to be able to create an option.
So I don't - I mean, I don't understand why this continual emphasis on a doubling down on a lie. He hasn't say that.
SHIELDS: Well, I can answer that; I can answer that for you. I can answer that for you. Nancy Pelosi said it. She said, improving Obamacare which is the Biden plan is a step two Medicare for all and single payer health care. And she is the Speaker of the House.
LEMON: But Joe Biden did say tonight. Joe Biden did say tonight. Mike, Mike, Mike let me in so I helped you with the mute mic thing. But Joe Biden did say tonight, all of those things that you are talking about, you are running against Joe Biden. I've never said that.
You are talking about everybody else is health care plan. What they want to do with it, what their interpretation of it. What he is saying, his health care plan won't do that.
SHIELDS: Yes, I'm sure - of course, you're bashing the president for not giving specifics. Joe Biden is saying this health care plan won't do that and yet he is for improving Obamacare, which Nancy Pelosi said is basically a step to single pair.
We all know, in fact I'll make a bet with you Governor. If Democrats win the presidency, the White House - excuse me, the Senate and the House, then by the spring there will be a single payer health care bill on the floor and the left wing of the party will demand that it becomes law and be put on Joe Biden's desk.
CARPENTER: That won't happen because Republicans haven't done anything since Obamacare was made into law in 2010. So congratulations, Republicans, you had 10 years.
LEMON: Great. Keep going Amanda?
SHIELDS: I actually don't disagree with you on that. GRANHOLM: Amanda you're on a roll.
CARPENTER: I was in the Senate, I try to re-appeal it and get a plan to replace it. I was part of that. How long do expect people to wait? Because I am in the camp of someone on the private market that really wants a strong private health care market.
So I can get affordable health care. Where have the Republicans been? I have been waiting for that plan to show up, and I am fearful to Mike of what may happen that the Democrats have a socialist health care system, but who can I turn to for help? It sure is heck has not been the Trump Administration.
LEMON: Well I was just going to say when you said that, well let's imagine if the Democrats win the presidency, the House, and the Senate, there are conservatives who are watching, going no, Mike, don't say that! And Amanda is really is vocalizing that right now.
So I mean, what happens? She's right, it has been a decade, and Republicans still have not come up with a plan. And this president, honestly, hasn't come up with a plan. I know you are criticizing Joe Biden, for you know, the president saying, OK, it's going to be two weeks, it's going to be whatever - but Joe Biden - there is a actual plan there that people can read, whether you agree with it or not. But there isn't one for this administration. There's not one.
SHIELDS: Is that question to me?
LEMON: Yes.
SHIELDS: You know look, I mean, if you hear what the president said, he says we administer Obamacare better. And in fact, under President Trump, Obamacare premiums have gone down. He's in a place where he can't - if you guys would let me talk, I may actually agree with you for a month. OK.
CARPENTER: Well, we may have comment about what you're saying.
SHIELDS: What I'm saying is that he can't say you know what? We didn't get a replacement done, we just didn't get it done, and so now I'm left in saying, we will protect pre-existing condition coverage and we're going to administer Obamacare better.
That's a part of what his message is because as Amanda said, Republicans drop the bomb and we didn't get a replacement bill done. And I think a better message from the president has to talk about what will happen because to bring voters like Amanda back to the president, all they need to know is you're going to get socialized medicine when the left takes over and that will bring them back to the camp that's what he should be saying in the debate.
CARPENTER: Yes, good luck with that. I can't leave my house or send my kids to school because of how he has handled the health care system.
LEMON: Jennifer I got it wrong.
CARPENTER: You are so desperate for anything that will take a plan over no plan.
LEMON: Can you do it in 10 seconds, Jennifer?
GRANHOLM: I was just going to say, there's one other tabletop issue that I think - kitchen table issues that people really care about that I thought Joe Biden handled really well which is raising the minimum wage which is at $7.25 an hour, on the federal level, which no one can live on. Add I think that strikes a chord across America.
LEMON: That's a whole another show but I - listen, just someone here, I remember I think it was 3.35 an hour for me, when I started out, and I think I remember when it was lower.
GRANHOLM: OK, grandpa.
LEMON: I know, you guys, you don't remember 3.35? I was like, well, - minimum wage. Thank you guys I appreciate it. See you soon. So Chris, are you there?
CUOMO: I'm listening.
LEMON: OK, so here's the thing. The reason I talked so much about the health care plan is obviously because we're in the middle of a pandemic right now.
[02:55:00]
LEMON: And people are relying - people need medical health and medical attention and they need access to the health care system. And so by saying, you know, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do this that does not help people who are right now entangled in the health care system in America.
CUOMO: First of all, the issue decided the midterm elections. Health care matters. We need to do better. What's the complete truth? The ACA, Obamacare, was never done a done deal. It was supposed to be worked on overtime. The Republicans wouldn't do it.
Mitch McConnell specifically said we are never going to do anything to get rid of it. That never happened. So there's nothing better, it hasn't been perfected, and the problem keeps getting worse, especially for the pandemic. We have real problems. Which direction will this country take to solve them?
LEMON: We'll see in the next 11 days maybe will no, we don't know. I always enjoy hanging out with you my friend.
CUOMO: I'll tell you what, it's nice to do it on TV, it's nice to do it off. I wouldn't want to do it with these hours, with anyone else. Take us home brother. Take us home.
LEMON: Thanks for, watching everyone. A special encore presentation of the Final Presidential Debate is next. Right here on CNN. We'll see you tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [03:00:00]
