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Trump Rails Against Possible Delays In Vote Counting Says Campaign Lawyers Will "Go In" To Pennsylvania Election Night; White house Adviser Atlas Apologizes For Russian State TV Interview; At Least 31 States Set Single-Day Coronavirus Case Records In October; Trump Spends Final Days Sowing Doubt On Election Results. Aired 11p- 12a ET

Aired November 01, 2020 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:00:16]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Welcome to primetime. I'm Chris Cuomo. Yes, this is live. Yes, it's Sunday night. Why? Because it matters. So we're here for you. And we're here with you. Less than 48 hours from Election Day, is President who wants to stay in office doesn't think all your votes should matter. He wants to talk about a legitimate election. But he doesn't want all the votes to be counted. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's a terrible thing, when ballots can be collected after an election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: It's not about collecting ballots after an election. In Pennsylvania, which is really what he's talking about but other states have this law as well, is that if it's postmarked by Election Day, that's when you vote, that's when I would vote in person, right? That's OK for us. Why isn't it OK for a mail-in ballot? So you post market on Election Day. What if it gets there a day or two later, should it not count? What if a state has a law to make sure it counts? And that law has been tested by that state's courts and found to be constitutional? Isn't that legitimate to you? Certainly what our judicial process would say is legitimate. That's called democracy. That's called normalcy.

Now a Trump campaign source says to CNN, the President is prepared to declare victory on election night, if he's close to winning, even if large numbers of ballots have yet to be counted. And he hasn't secured the Electoral College vote. You tell me? How is that good for anyone but him? Think about it. Trump says that was a fake report or a false report. No, it wasn't. It was exactly what he wanted, put it out -- put out. And then he takes that half step back that he likes to do.

And then later on, we'll often double down, which he did when he spoke. It doesn't sound farfetched based on everything this President has said and done. Here's what Joe Biden said in response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Our response is, the President's not going to steal this election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You know, it's very interesting, if you don't count it on November 3rd, forget it. You know, if that were the rule, I wonder if Trump would be President. Pennsylvania put them over the top. But that's how we want Arizona. It took days. We didn't find out for days, the counting wasn't done for days. Was he OK with it, then?

Let's take it to great political minds, David Gregory and the professor Ron Brownstein. Before we get into the why, let's get into the what. Professor Ron, tell us what is the deal with when elections end and how uncommon or common it is for ballots to be counted after Election Day?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's routine. It's historic, of course. I mean, you know, if you had a rule that only the ballots are counted by Election Day, what would have happened to the soldiers in World War II or the Civil War? I mean, it's absurd. You know, we have always counted ballot. I mean, the President is not only suggesting and his aides are not only suggesting that ballots that were postmarked before the election and coming after shouldn't be counted in the states that allow that. They're suggesting that no ballot should be counted at all, after the time that the polls closed no matter when they were casts.

CUOMO: He wouldn't won Arizona.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes. I mean, well, and look, I mean, you know, you have in multiple states, including Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania, you have severe limits on the ability of officials to start counting the ballots before Election Day. Republican legislators have explicitly refused to change those to bring them in line and what's available in other states like North Carolina and Florida and Arizona, where you can, do various extends begin processing the ballots before Election Day.

So, on the one hand they're saying you can't count until Election Day. We have millions of ballots, and then the President is somehow saying, well, you can count them after the polls close that night. I can't imagine, though Brett Kavanaugh expressed sympathy for this truly undemocratic idea. I can't imagine, you know, enough Supreme Court justices going for. But it is striking that we are not hearing more Republican elected officials openly condemned this and for that matter, the violence in Texas, the lawsuit in Texas to throw out over 100,000 ballots. The Republican Party is essentially acquiescing as Trump moves down these anti-Democratic small D lanes.

CUOMO: I'll tell you what, David, to Ron's point, you don't hear that state legislature which is Republican dominated in Pennsylvania, jumping up and down about this is their law, and they always erred on the side of counting after Election Day rather than doing it early because they were afraid of having the system manipulated before Election Day, so it was intentional.

[23:05:09]

Well, yes, we'll give you some allowances after just not before. And that's what happened in Pennsylvania. They didn't give the manpower and the ability to staff it to do it early. So they gave him three days to do it after. And now the President is making noise, it has to be just to rattle the legitimacy.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's all it is. And Republicans are scared to death of being in a scenario where there -- it's so close at the end, that there's litigation and that there's a President who's talking like this, and challenging the legitimacy. They would much rather kind of turn tail and ignore it and ignore the President's premature protests because I think a lot of them look at the electoral map. They look at the polling right now. And they see a president who's an underdog and the President who is preparing to not accept defeat.

If it's that tight, that you are going to scrutinize votes that have to still be counted in Pennsylvania, you can predict this President and those around him are going to find a way to challenge and try to kick it into the courts.

CUOMO: And again, just the proof that the President knows what he's saying is piffle. In Pennsylvania, six of the counties that were key for him that he turned have said already the Republican-led and they said, look, we're going to -- we're not going to count until after the election. We can't. We don't have the staff. So he's saying those votes shouldn't count. And just remind us in 2016, Ron, when did we find out that Trump won Arizona?

BROWNSTEIN: I don't remember exactly. But in 2018 --

CUOMO: Was Thursday after Election Day?

BROWNSTEIN: -- what I remember even more. So, yes, Kyrsten Sinema, you know, ended up winning Arizona several days after the vote. You know, the Pennsylvania thing is really interesting, Chris. Can I just kind of make a broader political point?

CUOMO: Please.

BROWNSTEIN: Joe Biden on Monday is going to be in Beaver County, Pennsylvania, home of Joe Namath by the way.

CUOMO: I love him.

BROWNSTEIN: And Kamala Harris is going to be in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania. Trump won both of those counties by about 19 points in 2016. How often on the day before the election, do you see a presidential candidate in a county that his party lost rather than a county that is, you know, strongly in their favor, where they're going to wave the flag and turn out the vote. This is not only very unusual, it is very revealing of the Biden strategy because, you know, you have to say, given the resistance that Trump is facing in the big metros, almost any Democrat will be pumping up the margin in the Philadelphia suburbs or the Denver suburbs or Dane County, in Madison.

Biden's potentially unique contribution to the Democrats is his potential to sand down those Trump margins in Trump country. I mean, a big part of their vision about how they win is by not flipping necessarily Beaver County, but by losing it by 12, instead of 19, or losing was earned by 8 instead of 19. And the equivalent across Western Wisconsin and Southeastern Ohio, where he is going -- Ohio where he's going on Monday, or in Central Florida, those blue collar counties around the I-4 Corridor.

In many ways, if Biden wins, it won't be through the flashy side of flipping a Maricopa County in Arizona, which he may do. It's going to be by knocking just a little bit off Trump's margin in these blue collar counties. And that was Biden's I think unique selling proposition from the beginnings of Democratic voters. I'm the guy who can bring back just enough of those working class whites to win some of these states again.

CUOMO: David?

GREGORY: And what's interesting about that, Chris, in just adding on the larger political point. Remember, in 2016, there were people who took a flyer on Trump because they thought, you know, what damage can it do? You know, let's shake things up and let's see. Now these people have a better sense of what a Trump presidency looks like, whether you like it or don't like it or like parts of it, don't like parts of it. And so then to Ron's point when you have in Joe Biden who was staring down at Election Day, knowing that he has much better personal favorables than Hillary Clinton had, he's got better polling. And to Ron's point, he's got the ability to neutralize Trump's strength that he's in a position of strength to seek to do that the day before the election.

It sets up the most important thing to Biden, win two is the day or days after to say I didn't just win, but this country offered a rebuke to Trump and Trumpism that we've seen in the last four years.

CUOMO: Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, real quick. I mean -- can I just add to that? I mean, it's kind of -- it's an asymmetric evolution from 2016 in that you are seeing the places that were resistant to Trump, basically Metro America, the core cities and the inner service consolidating even further against him. I mean he lost 87 of the hundred largest counties in America. He's probably going to lose over 90 this time. He lost them by 15 million votes last time just those hundred counties. It's going to be significantly more than that. He may win counties that account for only 30 percent of the GDP, the big info age, diverse metros, driving the 21st century economy are consolidating against him.

[23:10:21] But on the other side of that line, to David's point, Biden has the potential to slightly fracture, slightly loosen Trump's hold on Trump country, you know, kind of the mid-sized industrial places, the Erie's and the Scranton's, and Weltsparen (ph) and the Toledo and Youngstown and Janesville, all of those places, not necessarily that Biden is going to win them but if he loses them by less, while consolidating what I think is going to be an historic repudiation of the president inside the big diverse metro centers and basically every state, that is just a very tough combination for the President.

CUOMO: You know, look, a big concern is, this is a very tight race could go either way, no matter what the prognostication is, the President wins. And it winds up being a tacit acceptance of not doing anything against the pandemic, we're going to have a problem because the pandemic is the truth and it's not going to go away. This idea that everything changes if Biden wins, Ron, do you buy that?

BROWNSTEIN: No, I mean, look at the pandemic is -- we have, you know, the inept response has allowed it to take root to an extent that it is going to be very hard to turn around, and no one is going to do that. I mean, I think to your point, though, is the right one, though, what is the trajectory look like? Donald Trump, essentially has said to the country, I have given up on protecting you, we are going to let this run its course. And I think voters have gotten that message.

I mean why, for example, Wisconsin was supposed to be a photo finish, and who knows, it may yet turn out to be. But right now in the polling, there is a wider gap and I think anybody anticipated in the last week of the election. And I think it is in part because of the sense that Trump has given up on fighting the virus. You know, as I like to say at his rallies, the medium is the message louder than anything he says on the stage is the message he sends out by packing all these people together closely without masks, he is telling the country that no matter how long he's in office, no matter how many people get sick, no matter if he will die, he is not going to take this any more seriously than he has so far.

CUOMO: Great. David Gregory, go ahead.

GREGORY: Well, and I -- but I -- the other side of that is that there is a reservoir of feeling in the country that flies in the face of our public health experts, but people who think, you know, at some level, the media is overplaying this and deaths are down and there are -- we're getting better at treating this. And we can't keep going with shutting the economy down. Again, even if you don't understand it, there's enough of that feeling. We just don't know how big that is because all of these things that Ron say says could happen may not happen in some parts of the Trump -- in some parts of Trump country, because his support is very deep. The question is, how wide is it? Has he ever been able to expand that base? And that's what we're waiting to find out?

CUOMO: Well, one thing is for sure, this place is getting sick too. I got to fellas.

BROWNSTEIN: OK. All right. CUOMO: David Gregory, Ron Brownstein, brothers, thank you very much. Get a little bit of rest because it's time to roll now. It's time to roll.

[23:13:21]

All right, don't let any politician or anybody else tell you that it is over for either candidate until you see the number that matters 270, 270. Ignore the noise. Hold on to your pores. When do we get to 270, let's take a look at a map the most likely paths, just for an expectation of how long this process might take, OK? Bunch of maybes but it's better than nothing, next.

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CUOMO: Five states in one day. That is the President's calendar. He's doing his final rally tonight in Opa-locka, Florida following that battleground blitz across states that he won in 2016. Why? Because he's desperate, but also got to give it to him, the man is going to fight until the last moment. Recent polls show a tightening in races across key states that he needs to get to 270. And that's also why he is saying that doesn't happen on November 3rd, it doesn't count only what's counted that day, then it has to stop. It's not true. It's not valid. It's not correct. It's not whatever happens. So what does it tell us about the state of play? Phil Mattingly is at our magic wall to walk us through different courses and give us some perspective. How are you doing, brother?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm good, Chris. I'm going to start with the perspective first and kind of jump off what you were just talking about with Ron and David. Let's take a look back in. This is the 2016 map. And I'm going to talk about why this is the baseline we should be using for 2020 even if it is a different election, different year in just sec. Let's start with the state of Arizona, you guys we're talking about Arizona. Look at the margin here. Donald Trump won Arizona by 3.5 points. Arizona wasn't called for Donald Trump until 2.5 days after the election actually concluded.

If you even take up to the state of Michigan up here, one of the big upsets kind of puncturing the blue wall, narrow victory 10,700 votes ahead. This wasn't called for Donald Trump until several weeks after the election was completed. So this goes to the idea that counting votes after Election Day, it's not only normal, it was part of President Trump's coalition, his electoral victory that he likes to talk about so much. So that's an expectation and something to keep in mind. We'll get to more of that in a minute.

But first, let's start about where the state of play is right now. You're talking about where polls stand. We've seen a raft of new polls come out kind of the final polls for all pollsters in the last couple of days. And this is kind of the state of play for the CNN poll polls. This is an average of all high quality polling that we put in and it shows a narrow race in the state of Florida. Biden up by two, Arizona, you guys are just talking about, Biden up by five, Wisconsin, a little bit of a wider lead there, Democrats feeling more comfortable in Wisconsin, Biden up by 10. In Pennsylvania six, seven, we've seen it go back and forth, back and forth.

Let me explain what all that means. We'll go to the map and kind of walk through things here a little bit, Chris, because it underscores the pathways, the pathways. If you're the Biden campaign, and you're looking at this 2016 map, which is the basis for what the Trump campaign is running on right now. There's a very simple pathway to 270 electoral votes. You win back Pennsylvania, you win back Michigan, you win back Wisconsin. And look at that number. You're up above 270 electoral votes.

[23:20:13]

So why does -- why have you seen President Trump in Pennsylvania so often? Why is Joe Biden barnstorming, Pennsylvania with his entire team tomorrow? Is because they understand Pennsylvania is likely the key that unlocks or creates problems for them in this pathway to 270. So what happens if President Trump holds Pennsylvania?

Well, obviously democrats need to find some other pathway. That is where they tell you to look at the polling that I just showed you, Arizona, which President Trump won back in 2016. They feel like they're in a good place there. It's not done. It's not anywhere close to done. But it's clearly leaning Democrat according to Democrats. Florida, a clear toss up, North Carolina, a clear toss up, Georgia, a clear toss up, there are several different pathways for the Biden campaign to get to 270 even if they lose a state like Florida, even if they lose a state like Pennsylvania.

But Chris, I think the bottom line here is the Biden campaign knows this, the former blue wall is by far the quickest pathway to 270, the least controversial pathway to 270. But one problem, one problem and why some of these states in the south east and across the Sunbelt matters so much is when Pennsylvania would be called. You guys have been talking about it all night. We can talk a little bit more about it. But the reality for Pennsylvania is we are very unlikely to know the end results a decisive victor in Pennsylvania by the end of the first night.

Several key counties believe they will not start counting absentee ballots until after Tuesday night, until starting on Wednesday. So that for the Biden campaign, make states like Florida, which will count quickly, North Carolina, which will count quickly, Arizona, which knows how to do vote by mail will count quickly. And if you want to have some idea of where the Midwest is going, the state of Ohio, not necessarily a place where the Biden campaign expects to win. But keep in mind, Joe Biden showing up there on Monday, some sign of strength there if he's willing to go there in the final days of the campaign.

Ohio may not go towards Biden. But what happens in Ohio, in the suburbs, in the urban areas across the northeastern part of the state could tell you what's about to happen in Western Pennsylvania and other parts of the Midwest, Michigan, Wisconsin as they wait for that vote to come in.

CUOMO: That was some plate of brain food you just serve up there. Phil Mattingly, thank you very much. Appreciate it, pal.

All right, Trump is already laying the groundwork for a challenge in Pennsylvania. But the reason the brilliance behind what Phil was just telling you is, where was this rationale of his four years ago? This if you don't count it on election night, it doesn't count. So does he want to give back Arizona? Does he want to get back Michigan from last time because they weren't decided on election night? Come on. What does a former Republican congressman see behind what the President is cooking? And what does he foresee? He's on the Biden train now, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:26:32]

CUOMO: You know why Pennsylvania has more days to vote mail-in ballots, because Republicans made it that way. They run the legislature in Pennsylvania. And they are the reason that it will be harder for some counties to get a jump on counting the roughly 3.1 million mail-in ballots that have been requested there in a state of just under 13 million people, Republicans passed the law. They didn't give the provisions to get it done earlier, like other states that have had more experience with early voting. But now the President stands ready to invalidate legitimate votes given time to be counted by law, even in counties that he needs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think it's a terrible decision by the Supreme Court, a terrible decision. Now I don't know if that's going to be changed because we're going to go in that night of as soon as that election is over, we're going in with our lawyers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: But you don't want judicial activism. No, no, no, no, no, we don't want that. Just read the letter of the law. Unless it's a Republican legislature that passes a law in Pennsylvania that gets reviewed by its own courts to the highest court found to be constitutional, and you don't like it? Then activism is OK. Let's get it to the Supreme Court. Wait, they won't take the case, terrible decision. Come on.

My next guest is a former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania. Charlie Dent, welcome back to primetime. I mean, look, you know, who knows Pennsylvania better than you? What do I have wrong? Legislature passed a law. They should have given a lot more assets and money to help count early. They didn't want to do that. So they added some days after reviewed in the courts there went to the Supreme Court, found constitutional within the state. What am I missing?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not a whole lot, Chris. Frankly, the legislature should have given the county election officials the ability to count these mail-in ballots prior to the Election Day. That's what they should have done. You know, I don't know, wait 10 days, just give them some time. I'm confident they'll count the votes. They'll be counted probably after the election. We're not going to get the full, a complete picture, I think for a few days. But I think this is a mess.

And the president, you know, it's not just what they're doing -- what he's saying about the absentee ballots. And candidly, Republicans have been much better at absentee voting in Pennsylvania over the years than the Democrats, have been much more organized system. And with the President has gone around bad mouth mail-in votes, absentee votes. He's been bad mouthing it, he's actually harming his own cause, which to me is, is mystifying. Why would he do such a thing?

And by the way, Chris, of those mail-in ballots you talked about, 3 million have been requested, and over 2 million have been collected. Democrats have about a three to one edge so far, about a million and a half Democrats have voted by absentee at about a half a million Republicans. So you're not missing a lot. And by the way the Trump campaign is also involved with some shenanigans. One county in Cumberland County, just west of Harrisburg, a pretty Republican area is complaining that the Trump campaign is requesting ballots security details. I mean, they're perturbed. They're missed -- again, mystified that just doesn't seem right.

[23:30:00]

So, if he gets what he wants, 44,000 votes was the margin last time. He is going to start saying that seven counties that he won don't get to count ballots.

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think that's quite possible. And in fact if you're really worried about a red mirage blue shifts scenario, I'd worry about in Pennsylvania. Because I do think you could see a situation where Trump does pretty well on in-person voting on Election Day, because so many Democrats have voted absentee that, you know, Trump could be doing reasonably well on election night, only to watch this thing shift over the coming days toward the Democrats towards Biden.

And then that is when, you know, Trump and his legal team are going to raise hell, and start saying that this whole system is rigged and it's fixed. I mean, that's what I'm worried about in Pennsylvania. This red mirage blue shift, it's a very real -- it's a very, very real possibility given where we are at the moment. I'm with you.

CUOMO: I think -- I know a lot of the bigger brains will say, no, no, it will be done. Pennsylvania would be nice for Biden, either wins it bigger he doesn't, but I don't think we're going to be watching it all night. I think we will.

My concern is not the talk, because that's what this president does. But the walk of violence, people doing what they did to the Biden bus, one truck, not get into a car on the highway and the guys with the guns showing up. They're allowed to be about 100 feet away in most places, because that's seen as a first amendment right that you get to go there with guns as a form of speech. Are you worried about what could happen in terms of reaction to Trump not winning the election?

DENT: Well, I'm not as worried about that on Election Day. I am worried after the election. CUOMO: Right.

Dent: That if -- that we have a close election, if it's a close election, and the President questions the legitimacy of the tallies, then I do worry that there could be some very real civil unrest. I hope that's not the case. You know, there this -- by the way, you know, this could be a decisive win for Biden. I'm not saying it will be, but it certainly could be. And, of course, Pennsylvania is going to be the center of the storm.

But given the President's rhetoric, I mean, I do worry that this is going to contribute to civil unrest. I hope I'm wrong.

CUOMO: Me too, because I don't know that we're going to have a huge -- look, I'm happy to be wrong all the time. This isn't -- I don't do the polling. I don't do the analysis, but I would be shocked if it's not a close race that night, which means you're going to be following things in Pennsylvania will be right in the bull's eye.

Charlie Dent, thank you very much. We will watch it together. God bless between now and then.

Voters, they're mailing in ballots why, a lot of reasons. And by the way, it's been well used by Republicans in a lot of different states for a long time. It's about organization. It's about getting in early, getting it done, taking out risk, especially during a pandemic.

And remember, the pandemic isn't the only virus in our myths, right? You have disinformation. And now you have this weird synergy, where Russia and Iran are magnifying the ugliness that's being put out by our own president. And now his favorite task force member, who's got no business talking about a pandemic in the first place, let alone being his most trusted source about one, is talking to Kremlin TV, and bad mouthing our response to the pandemic.

You got to hear from doctors who understand the science and we have one of the best, next.

[23:33:43]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: The most influential and controversial advisor on the White House Coronavirus Task Force gave a 30-minute long interview to Russian-state media. Here's a clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SCOTT ATLAS, ADVISER, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: The lockdowns had been one of the -- will go down as an epic failure of public policy by people who refuse to accept they were wrong. The public health leadership have failed egregiously, and they're killing people with their fear inducing shutdown policies.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Just think about this for a second, Russian trolls and other interference inimical actors in our midst, want us to question response to the pandemic, want us to think we shouldn't respond to the pandemic. It's part of their disinformation campaign. Now, not only do you have Trump's main guy echoing what they want you to think, but he's doing it on Russia TV, not to mention the fact that this Atlas has no experience with pandemics. And he's the main advisor, boy, that does explain a hell of a lot of inaction.

So this is the best part for me though. Now Atlas is apologizing not for what he said, but he says, oh, I didn't know that Russia Today was a registered foreign agent. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to go on there. When we tried to book people from the task force, it goes through like three layers of vetting. This guy just walked into Russia Today and nobody knew about it. Come on.

Let's bring in Dr. William Schaffner to discuss this and more. I won't sell you with politics, doctor. But the idea that lockdowns are bad. They make more people sick than they help.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Chris, come on. We all know that that's not correct. In fact, by reducing that kind of activity, enforcing social distancing and really eliminating large groups, that's exactly what we would like to do on a voluntary basis to reduce the transmission of the virus. And if you want to look to a country that's done it better than anybody else, look to China.

Now we don't want to do it the way they did it, but they did lockdown Wuhan and the surrounding province. And now they count COVID cases on their fingers. That's how few they have. So it really works.

It worked in Australia, it works in New Zealand, South Korea. Of course, reducing that kind of intermingling of people reduces the opportunities for the virus to spread. Now, if we all wore our masks the way we were supposed to do, of course, that would help enormously.

[23:40:08]

And if we avoided these large group activities, which are accelerators, you know, the virus spreads among those people who come realize that people who go to those large group activities in their daily life, they're not wearing the mask. They're not observing social distancing. So you can bet the viruses there, among them, it spreads.

They take it home, it spreads in their families, and then it spreads to neighbors and associates. So they're all accelerator events. We need to be more restrained.

CUOMO: Think about that, the fact that the counter message to what you're saying the science dictates is coming from the person the President listens to most, explains a lot. Now, something else the President said.

You're still very familiar with the practice of medicine when it comes to COVID. The President had one of his guys echoing this message today. You guys, in the white coats, are saying that people died from COVID when they didn't, because you get more money if you say it was COVID.

SCHAFFNER: The best thing I can say about that, Chris, is that the President is simply misinformed. And he's been let down by his staff who told him that, because it's clearly incorrect. Doctors don't get paid by the diagnosis. They do in hospitalized patient get paid by the degree of severity of the illness.

If you have a simple infection of your bladder and kidney, you get -- and you take care of that, you get a little bit of money. If that infection gets into the bloodstream and cause a sepsis, so you have to spend a lot more time at the bedside talking to the family, changing drugs, et cetera. Of course, you get compensated more, that makes sense. But you don't get paid by the diagnosis.

CUOMO: So if somebody dies of COVID versus kidney failure, it's not more money.

SCHAFFNER: It's not more money. No, not at all.

CUOMO: What do you think of the idea that you're probably not the only person who knows that and yet, they're saying it anyway? What could that do to the morale of the people that we need most, which is you guys.

SCHAFFNER: It just distresses people greatly. But, you know, everybody buckles down, they're doing their job. They're taking the very best care of patients that they can, the public health people, the rank and file, they're doing their jobs, working very hard, hoping that this tsunami soon will pass.

CUOMO: I wonder if he would have trash talk to doctors that got him in and out so fast at Walter Reed that way, I hope not. Dr. Schaffner, I hope you let everybody know. He only speaks for himself when it comes to this kind of stuff, that we've always responded to you guys as the first responders and angels that you are. And that is only more of how people feel now. It'll never be less. Thank you for what you do.

SCHAFFNER: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: All right. Now, look, I've been arguing to you guys for a long time. I think coronavirus has to be the prevailing issue of this election. It's connected to everything that is wrong with us right now. We are at the end of the worst week yet in this pandemic. More infections, more hospitalizations now are popping up, and there will not be a vaccine by Tuesday as the President has been floated.

So can you win a second term when people feel that you stink at the issue that matters most? Let's discuss with two great minds, next.

[23:43:43]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: October was a horrible month in terms of the pandemic. November looks to be worse. We've already had more COVID cases reported on this Sunday than any other Sunday. The one thing we know for certain about this election whoever wins, we have to do better on the pandemic.

Let's discuss the issue that matters most with Jennifer Granholm and Scott Jennings. Best to you and both of your families, I hope you will.

Governor, I start with you. You have polls suggesting that voters believe that Biden would be better on the pandemic than Trump. How does that translate into message for the Biden campaign?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it is the number one issue and it's the issue that Biden by his very activity has been demonstrating that he'll take seriously and he will. And I think it's why you're seeing 57% of voters pan the way Donald Trump has handled the virus.

And, Chris, just specifically, I think one of one segment, one demographic is seniors. Donald Trump has fallen 15 points since 2016 with seniors, and that's because one in four seniors know somebody who has died. 95% of the deaths have affected seniors. This is a hugely important voting block. And they can see how Donald Trump is behaving with all of these rallies.

They don't need to be even told about the study from Stanford that I know you guys have covered yesterday, which said that out of 14 rallies that Donald Trump did this summer, 30,000 COVID cases and 700 deaths resulted. People can see it in the rallies, they see it every day. And I think honestly, this issue is why on Tuesday or Wednesday, Donald Trump will not win a second term.

CUOMO: CNN isn't reporting that story. But, you know, it's out there. There are a lot of things that are out there for people to consume.

Scott Jennings, doesn't the President, if he is gifted another four years by the American people, doesn't he have to do a better job fighting this pandemic?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, and they put a lot of stock into the vaccine. I mean, you hear Donald Trump talk about it all the time. It hasn't come before the election, but I think it's pretty clear that it's going to come sometime in the very near future. In fact, whoever wins the White House, Biden or Trump is going to have this vaccine to come out --

CUOMO: No time soon.

JENNINGS: -- to get it to the people who need it to most hopefully, God willing, sometime soon. And that's going to be task number one.

[23:50:09]

I'm sorry?

CUOMO: You got to do more than the vaccine. We're not going to have it until late last year, late next year in any numbers that will matter in terms of, you know, giving us real prophylaxis against the virus. You'll have some and it'll be in stages. And you'll have to get the logistics, right? You're right about all that.

But if we don't have a better plan, your kids in mind aren't going to be in school in any real way until 2022. You know, we got to do more than just vaccine planning. Don't you agree on that?

JENNINGS: Well, sure. I mean, I think we ought to follow the public health officials who say social distancing and masks is the single two biggest things we can do. And the President rhetorically has failed on that, which I think is largely why his job approval on coronavirus has suffered, I think.

So there's the issue of the vaccine, there's the issue of the rhetorical, you know, a discussion with the American people. And then there's the issue of the economy, and I think this is the one area where Trump still maintains some advantage with voters. They believe that he is probably better to get the American economy turned around. They look at the GDP numbers that just came out and they look at what he did pre-COVID.

And they say, well, this guy looks like he knows how to run an economy and that's what we're going to have to do once we get the virus put behind us. That's what he has to hope the people believe when they vote on Tuesday.

CUOMO: Got you. Jennifer, what's your take on the economic aspect?

GRANHOLM: Yes. I mean, first of all, Donald Trump is going to leave office being the worst president for jobs in 100 years. And that is just a fact. But I do think that what Joe Biden is saying, is that you don't have to choose between health and the economy, that the virus is the precursor to making sure we can open it up. But look, I mean, you just had a doctor on who was talking about China -- who's talking about China.

Honestly, South Korea with 51 million people, you know how many people have died from the coronavirus, 466. If South Korea were our size, 3,200 people would have died. What are they doing? They are aggressive about testing and tracing, and quarantining people who test positive. They put up all of these, and this is what Joe Biden says he's going to do, put up all these additional testing centers to make sure they can identify where the outbreaks are happening. And they did not shut their economy down.

Now they're going into this fall crunch. And so they've had to close down their schools temporarily. But they are an example of how if you treat the virus and contain it, and detect it, you can have the economy open. Unfortunately, Donald Trump thinks that testing apparently causes the virus or at least increases your numbers, but at least you can follow where it is and then treat where it is erupting. And he doesn't get that

CUOMO: Scott, in terms of what we got to worry about on Election Day and afterwards. You saw what happened in Texas with the Biden bus. I don't know why the President chooses to make light of something like that. I don't know why he has never taken an occasion to tell people to be better than they were in a moment.

But, you know, what he's setting up with Pennsylvania, we both know that if you were following the notion that he has now about when votes stopped counting, he wouldn't have won Arizona. He would have to give back Arizona and Michigan in the last election, because he didn't get either of those states on election night because the counting needed to continue. So also shooting himself in the foot with six counties that he needs in Pennsylvania, who said they won't be able to start counting mail in ballots, many of which have been exercised by Republicans all over the country until the day after the election. Why is he pushing this?

JENNINGS: Yes. To me, it shows a lack of confidence in what's going to happen. I mean, my view is every legal vote that's been cast should be counted. And some of those votes are not going to be counted until after the election. But if a voter makes a good faith effort to cast a legal vote before the election is over, they ought to have their vote counted. And I think that's what both campaigns and both parties should strive for.

I mean, it all has to come to an end at some point. You can't count forever. But if you cast a legal vote before the election, that voter ought to have their vote counted.

As it relates to the bus, Chris, it is extremely dangerous. And I know people have been passing it around. I've seen it on my Facebook wall. I've seen it on my Twitter feed. And this is extremely dangerous. These vehicles are dangerous. I've written in these buses, I'm sure the governor has as well as part of campaigns.

These are the large vehicles. They take up a lot of space. I mean, it's like if you've ever been on an interstate with --

CUOMO: But nobody saying it's not dangerous, Scott, except the President.

JENNINGS: These are dangerous.

CUOMO: I know but the President was joking about it.

JENNINGS: I know, let me finish. The President should not be joking about this. It is not a good idea to pull your vehicle up next to one of these huge vehicles on the roadway. It is extremely dangerous and it would make any driver of one of those vehicles very nervous. So that's not a smart thing.

CUOMO: I'll tell you something. Jennifer, the day that you guys learned to criticize your own, the way Scott just back loaded the part about telling Trump that he shouldn't have talked that bullshit, that he talked about this situation.

[23:55:08]

You guys will be a much more cohesive group of political players. Because let me tell you something, if that were a Trump bus, and Joe Biden had joked about a bunch of Biden people messing with the bus, you guys would eat him for lunch, even two days before an election. He would be getting condemned from all over the place in the Democratic Party.

But the President joking with you, guys, about this, and he's got people coming with weapons, within 100 feet of the polling places. And he's going to say he won on election night. And people are going to be angry as hell. And what do you think the country has to be ready for, Jennifer?

GRANHOLM: Yes. I mean, this is why you're seeing all of these businesses board up. They don't know where any anger -- which side anger is coming from, but they want to protect themselves. This is although on Trump's part, a part of a pattern, right? He winks at those who are carrying guns at, I mean, in Michigan, obviously. You've got a governor whose life was threatened to be kidnapped by these domestic terrorists. He's encouraging that kind of applause for people who are vigil, who are taking the law into their own hands.

I mean, he's doing the same thing on the campaign trail. It is why he must go.

CUOMO: Well, listen, we just have to be better than that kind of notion. And Scott Jennings, to your credit, thank you for giving the right message, brother. I appreciate.

GRANHOLM: I agree.

CUOMO: Thank you very much.

GRANHOLM: Good for you, Scott.

CUOMO: Jennifer Granholm, to both you and your families, especially over the next few days. Calm heads, good hearts, good luck, all right?

And good luck to all of you. We will be with you and we will be here for you all the way through. Countdown to Election Day with Brooke Baldwin is next.

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