Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Nail-Biter Election Comes Down to Few Key Swing States. Trump, Biden Both Claim Victory Despite Several States Still to Be Called. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired November 04, 2020 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: This especially -- yes, go ahead, then I have a question for you, please.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I just want to add on the rigidity piece, which obviously Ron was so good at describing and sketching out. You know, part of that rigidity gets to attitudes. Because in so many fought bubbles in this country that I've been in, you know, there's a sense among Trump critics that they simply cannot understand how another American could support this president.

They just can't get there. And this is a reminder of how big and diverse and divided the country is, that people vote for lots of different reasons.

We can break down economy, other policies in fear. Fear of the left. You know, I think it's interesting when I was talking about the Senate, there's a desire for divided government in this country, and there always has been because it's a check on who ever runs the White House. And a lot of people get frustrated that things don't get done. But I think it's interesting if Republicans hold the Senate, first of all, it would reflect how tight the presidential was when you had states with tight races. But also a desire for some level of gridlock.

CUOMO: It's interesting, I think it comes down to an understanding of the foolish versus the fatal, which is Trump supporters will say, look, what you don't like about Trump, I get, I'm not saying I like it either. But this is foolery, Trumpery, literally, the word by definition. But what's fatal are their fears about cultural and structural economic --

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes --

CUOMO: That the radical left may bring --

BROWNSTEIN: Yes --

CUOMO: Now, in terms of what narrative matters, Laura, I want to get you in here on this, the president is going to have a big hand and how his supporters perceive this voting and counting. How important is his messaging when he comes out today or goes on Twitter or whenever he decides to start his day?

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Yes, I don't think we can overstate how important what the president of the United States says. And so, when he said overnight that there was fraud with no evidence, that he won the election which there's -- we aren't done counting. So, again, that's false.

And saying that somehow the election would be stolen from him and that voting should be halted. I mean, that's dangerous rhetoric for an electorate that looks to the president to lead and to tell them what the truth is. And when I was going to battleground states in the lead- up to yesterday, I heard from a lot of voters, even Democrats, their concerns about the electoral process.

And how they were worried about what was going to happen. And Republicans certainly listened to the president, and they did not trust the process, and they repeated his talking points about the election potentially being stolen. So, it's important what he says and it's important for us clearly as the press to put a check on it when it's inaccurate.

And so right now, votes are still being counted, and this idea that votes are coming in, you know, beyond election day, that somehow they weren't cast before November 3rd. These are mail-in ballots that were the early vote and they're just now being counted. And they count just as much as votes that were cast yesterday during the day in person.

BROWNSTEIN: Absolutely --

BARRON-LOPEZ: And so, that's --

BROWNSTEIN: You know --

BARRON-LOPEZ: That's key.

CUOMO: I've got to break, guys, I appreciate it very much, thank you. And this is what we know. We have an absence of reports of problems of irregularities -- excuse me. There have been monitors everywhere, there are lawyers everywhere.

The president was right about how he would be portrayed in this election by his followers, how much resolve and strength he show, and he was dead-wrong about fraud in the process. We've seen no proof on the contrary. You've come out stronger than ever, and the count is going exactly as we expected it to in terms of process. Outcome, who know? There's a lot changing in real-time, we'll stay on it for you, stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:35:00]

CUOMO: All right, we have a very interesting situation for you evolving in real-time. We have an emerging theory about what is happening in the key states and what it will mean for the state of play, and not too long from now. And we have an opportunity to test the theory with the Secretary of State of Michigan because Michigan is obviously highly involved. So -- and you can be with me in real-time because I'm not quite sure, I get it. Help me understand why you and Harry Enten believe that there's somewhat of an understanding of what's happening here.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the better way to look at it is the importance of Wisconsin and Michigan right now, which we have been zeroed in on and which we have seen Wisconsin move into a --

CUOMO: Not Georgia, not Pennsylvania?

MATTINGLY: We'll get there. We'll get there. But as much reporting as it is pathways right now.

CUOMO: OK.

MATTINGLY: And I'll explain that in a second. But obviously, we've seen Joe Biden take a small lead in Wisconsin. Joe Biden is on the verge of taking a lead, given what's outstanding and where it's outstanding in Michigan. So, I want to map this out. Look, everything you see that's colored in right now is a state that we've called.

And that leaves Joe Biden at 224 electoral votes and Donald Trump at 213 electoral votes. Now, say for the sake of argument that Donald Trump wins Alaska, not Joe Biden. Donald Trump wins Alaska which is to be expected, and Joe Biden wins the state of Maine. We're not even going to give him Maine, two, the one electoral vote there, just give him the state of Maine and where things stand right now.

Now Joe Biden is leading in the state of Arizona. Joe Biden is narrowly leading in the state of Nevada. We expect mail to come in there, perhaps they hold on. Just for the sake of where we're going right now, this is where he's leading.

CUOMO: You won't know -- you won't know about Nevada --

MATTINGLY: For a number of days --

CUOMO: You'll get an update tomorrow --

MATTINGLY: For a number of days, and then they have until the 10th. What I want to do is show pathways right now --

CUOMO: OK.

MATTINGLY: Show pathways. So if Joe Biden holds on in Nevada, if Joe Biden holds on in Arizona --

CUOMO: Right --

MATTINGLY: If Donald Trump holds on in North Carolina --

CUOMO: Right --

MATTINGLY: Look at where things stand right now. What's outstanding? State of Georgia, state of Pennsylvania, state of Michigan, the state of Wisconsin.

CUOMO: And that one district.

MATTINGLY: And Maine, two. Now, you give Wisconsin to Joe Biden, where he's currently leading. You give Michigan to Joe Biden, if he overtakes Donald Trump, which it looks like he will based on the outstanding vote -- we don't know if that holds, we don't know what's going to happen over the course of the next several hours.

[07:40:00]

My point is, if Joe Biden holds on in Arizona and Joe Biden holds on in Nevada, and Joe Biden holds on to his very narrow lead in Wisconsin, and if he overtakes Donald Trump in Michigan over the course of the next several hours as counties come in, he doesn't need Pennsylvania, he doesn't need Georgia, he doesn't need North Carolina, he's at 270 electoral votes.

CUOMO: All right, so let's test a theory real quickly, and then I know Don Lemon has the Secretary of State of Michigan to give us some insight into whether or not you're even close. But what do you see in Michigan? Because he's losing right now.

MATTINGLY: He's losing in Michigan. Let's take a look and it's a similar pathway of what we saw in Wisconsin. Poll Wisconsin first, I'm not going to do a deep dive in Wisconsin, we saw Donald Trump up by about 109,000 votes just a couple of hours ago in Wisconsin, and then you've started to see the mail-in vote come in.

CUOMO: Right --

MATTINGLY: You saw it come in, in Milwaukee, you saw it come in, in Kenosha, a Republican county, you saw it come in Brown County --

CUOMO: Biden is up 20,000 right now --

MATTINGLY: A Republican County --

CUOMO: Which is really thin, until you remember that Trump won Wisconsin in 2016 by 22,000 votes. So, it's not an unheard of margin of --

MATTINGLY: Right --

CUOMO: State of play, keep going.

MATTINGLY: That's 97 percent reporting. So, that's what we saw happen in Wisconsin. Now, there is still vote outstanding, and we are still --

CUOMO: Yes --

MATTINGLY: Watching it closely as it comes in, as you noted, that is a narrow margin. Now, let's move over to Michigan. Just a couple of hours ago, Michigan was at 220,000-vote lead for Donald Trump.

CUOMO: Now he's at 27,400 --

MATTINGLY: Donald Trump is at 27,398 with 86 percent reporting. Not unlike Milwaukee, Wayne County, largest county in the state, 18 percent of the state right here, 64 percent reporting. You're talking another couple 100,000 votes right there. Now, we don't know exactly how that's going to break down, however, we know it's absentee, we know it's mail.

CUOMO: The county clerks said they had a lot left to do, about 45 percent of the number, then iced me on timing. But there are a couple of different areas that are similarly situated in Michigan where you believe it could break blue.

MATTINGLY: It's not -- it's not a belief. It's not a belief.

CUOMO: OK.

MATTINGLY: It's based on history, it's based on current margins and it's based on the type of vote that's outstanding. Right, it's vote by mail, and over the course of this night we have seen -- and now morning, we have seen repeatedly, when vote by mail comes in, whether it's earlier than an election day mail or after election day mail, it comes in heavily Democratic. So, it's not just that big counties like Ingham which reported, still has about 7 percent outstanding, that's how we saw Joe Biden start to narrow the lead with more.

CUOMO: Right --

MATTINGLY: It's not just that these counties are outstanding, and that there are fewer Republican major counties outstanding, is that most of the outstanding is vote by mail and absentee. That's what gives Joe Biden a pathway here. That's why Michigan right now at 27,000 apart is very close, and the Biden campaign has a pathway in Michigan, pathway in Wisconsin. They hold on in Nevada, they hold on in Arizona, that's 270 electoral votes. But it's early and these races are very close.

CUOMO: Very true, OK, good. So it's a fragile theory. But there is an opportunity for us here to take a question mark and maybe bend it into an exclamation point, because Don Lemon has the Secretary of State of Michigan who can put some meat on the bones of what's actually happening there. Don, all yours --

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And we need it at this point. You guys did a great set-up. So, let's talk to her on now. The Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson. Thank you so much, of Michigan, I should -- I should say. Thank you so much, I appreciate you joining us. It's good to see you again. So you saw Phil --

JOCELYN BENSON, MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Likewise --

LEMON: You saw Phil and Chris set it up there. Where are we, having heard them there at the magic wall?

BENSON: Well, you know, a lot of what they said is absolutely a reflection of what we're seeing on the ground here in Michigan. A lot of -- hundreds of thousands, actually, of absentee ballots remain to be tabulated. Workers have been counting them throughout the night, continue to count them today.

They're notably counted by a pair of election workers, one from each major party to prevent any political bias. But in Detroit, in Flint, in Grand Rapids, in Warren, in Sterling Heights, those absentee ballots are still yet to be reported. And so, we know --

LEMON: OK, I know Phil is listening to you and Chris, so say again, say again, repeat it.

BENSON: So we've got Detroit, Flint, Grand Rapids, Warren, Sterling Heights, all of those right now are still being counted. Hundreds of thousands of ballots between all of those of our largest jurisdictions, Grand Rapids, Flint, Detroit. Those are all of our larger cities. All absentee ballots still being counted, not being recorded --

LEMON: Can you give us a closer number? Can you give us a better idea of how many you're talking about?

BENSON: We -- I would say certainly larger than any margin between the candidates right now. And we will -- I will also say, we'll know much more in the hours to come, and I expect we'll have a much more complete picture of Michigan by the end of today.

LEMON: OK, in the hours -- meaning soon, this morning or early --

BENSON: Yes --

LEMON: This afternoon?

BENSON: I mean, people are tabulating these ballots right now. So that's why even if I, you know, say we have this many ballots counted, it could change in ten minutes. So --

LEMON: OK --

BENSON: I would encourage people to keep checking our -- these counties' websites, Wayne County, Macomb County, Oakland County. Know that it's absentee ballots still outstanding in our largest jurisdictions, and know that we're on track to complete the vast majority of that tabulation today.

[07:45:00]

LEMON: Today, so we should know today. You think we should have some -- we can come to some sort of conclusions --

BENSON: We're on track, yes --

LEMON: OK --

BENSON: Yes, we're on track to have a much more complete picture if not the vast majority of jurisdictions reporting out by the end of today. LEMON: Let's talk about these mail-in ballots, secretary. What role

did the fact that we saw more mail-in ballots than in-person voting. What does that -- what impact does that have on what we're seeing right now?

BENSON: Well, it certainly allows, you know, potential false narratives as we've seen and as we expected to percolate on social media and come from candidates. But the bottom line is, votes are still being counted. Two-thirds of our voters voted absentee.

And for that many ballots to still be outstanding, you know, I really call on every candidate on the ballot right now, as the vast majority have, to respect the process, respect the security of our process and ensure and join with us in ensuring that every vote will count, and that, that will determine the outcome of any election in Michigan.

LEMON: Listen, Madam Secretary, I know that you don't want to be partisan with this, but you heard what the president said, but this is how elections work. You count ballots until you finish counting them, just because they happen, you know, after a deadline, an arbitrary deadline that he said in his head. It doesn't mean that these ballots should not be counted.

BENSON: I fully expect them to spend a lot of time today pushing back against false information about our state and about what the voters have voted. For me, for any candidate to claim they've won our state, with hundreds of thousands of votes still being counted, would silence the voices of citizens who legally voted and whose voices are going to be heard.

So, I would ask all of us to exercise caution and patience and respect the will of our voters, and know that our election workers are diligently tabulating every vote and that we will have more to announce in the hours ahead.

LEMON: Just to be clear, you know, I'm not always the sharpest knife in the drawer, I've been up for a long time since yesterday --

BENSON: Yes --

LEMON: But I just want to make sure, you said that you should have some idea by the end of the day. And I just want to remind our viewers, secretary, 2016, it took almost three weeks to call Michigan. You don't think that's going to -- we're going to have that sort of stretch this time, correct?

BENSON: Well, no. That's not what I'm seeing. However, you know, a lot can happen in the next few hours, right? So we want to be mindful, we're counting every vote. That's what we can say with certainty. We're on track to see every vote tabulated today and have unofficial results to report quite soon, probably, you know, certainly within the next 24 hours.

Still a lot can happen. We want to make sure again any challenges get adjudicated and all that today. So we're still mindful of the process, we're going to give updates throughout the day, but that's where we are right now. I'm cautiously optimistic we'll have a much full -- much fuller report out of Michigan by the end of today.

LEMON: OK, Secretary Benson, I want you to just stand by, I'm not sure if they will, but I don't know if Chris or Phil have any questions for you, because it is an opportunity we have to speak with you. You're being very candid. If you do raise your hand or raise your voice, guys, if you're able to hear and if you have some questions for the secretary.

MATTINGLY: Right, Madam Secretary, Phil Mattingly here. Thanks for taking the time. Just a couple of more detailed questions. When you're talking about Kent County or when you were talking about Grand Rapids being outstanding, is that -- are you looking inside Kent as Grand Rapids being kind of the primary batch that's still outstanding in that county?

BENSON: Yes, the absentee count in Grand Rapids is where the largest number, if not all are outstanding in Kent County. There are still a number of jurisdictions in Oakland County and Macomb outstanding. Those absentee ballots continue to be counted. As you noted, Ingham County -- so a lot is happening in real-time.

We want to, you know, not get ahead of anything, but also just let the process work. But notably our largest jurisdictions, which as you know, are the ones I mentioned, Detroit, Flint, Grand Rapids, Sterling Heights, Warren, those still have some time to go. And those ballots are being tabulated as we speak.

And so, you know --

LEMON: All right --

BENSON: We'll keep post -- we'll keep you posted throughout the day, but things are going efficiently. Yesterday was very smooth for our state, and we're now committed to just making sure every vote is counted.

LEMON: All right, Madam Secretary, thank you very much, I appreciate it. Just --

BENSON: My pleasure.

LEMON: Just real quick to Phil. Phil, how does that inform you, your question?

MATTINGLY: Well, look, it informs pretty much what we've been saying over the course of the last couple of hours. The secretary came through and kind of hammered home a key point. One of the things that we've gone back and forth to a couple of times over the course of the night and morning, I guess, is where is the outstanding vote and what does it mean going forward?

And I've gone a number of times to Kent County. Kent County, which is the home of Grand Rapids, Kent County which President Trump won back in 2016 by about 3 points, just north of 3 points. Take a look at that right there, just north of 3 points. That started to swing towards Democrats back in 2018. And the governor's race, some of the house races as well, looked like

it was moving away from President Trump. And throughout the course of the night and into the morning, the margin in Kent County was pretty significant for President Trump. So my question was, has he turned the tide back his way in Kent County or was there a lot of outstanding vote that was primarily Democratic vote by mail?

[07:50:00]

LEMON: Outstanding --

MATTINGLY: What we've seen over the course of the last couple of hours is more of that vote has come in. That margin has started to close, and what the secretary laid out and why I asked her specifically about Kent is the majority of the outstanding vote by mail and absentee in Kent County is coming from Grand Rapids, which is a Democratic City which more generally comes in more Democratic. And so this margin should shrink a little bit more.

You also talk about -- one more quick thing, if you will allow me, Don, Genesee County as well which is the home to Flint, I think a lot of people have been staring at this, wondering why 95 percent reporting, Donald Trump is in the lead in a county that Hillary Clinton won by nearly 10 points.

So, it doesn't mean Donald Trump is not going to end up winning the county, but it does mean that there is --

LEMON: Got it --

MATTINGLY: Outstanding vote from Flint which is a traditional Democratic -- traditionally goes Democratic. And so, what I'm trying to do is identify where specifically in these counties the outstanding vote is coming from to better identify what the party compilation will end up being. And I think what the secretary is laying out is that it is largely going to come in from Democratic parts of these counties. It doesn't mean --

LEMON: OK --

MATTINGLY: It's necessarily all going to be Democrat, but that's what we're looking at coming in.

LEMON: All right, Phil, we're going to get back to you, thank you very much, I appreciate that. I still want to get to our panel and talk to some folks who can help us out with this, as Chris said, put some meat on the bones for us.

So, joining me now is former Virginia Governor Terry McAuliffe, Scott Jennings; a former special assistant to President George W. Bush and Republican strategist Ana Navarro. Good morning to all of you, I'm not sure if I've ever been up this early to speak with you, and to see your faces, but it's good to see you.

Terry, I'm going to bring you in because this is -- this is straight up your bailiwick as they say, sort of right up your alley. As you were listening to the secretary of state and you were listening to Phil's analysis, what does this tell you about where we are when it comes to Michigan right now?

TERRY MCAULIFFE, FORMER VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: Well, let me say to you, we're going to win Michigan, I would predict we win it handily. You know, Don, I'd go on to say, listen, Joe Biden is going to be elected president of the United States of America. I think he is on track now to get the most votes of any candidate ever for president of the United States.

If you look what's outstanding, if you look at Nevada, we've got Clark County mail-in, that is a Democratic area, we're leading now in the votes out Racine(ph), Wisconsin, and if you look at Michigan, huge Detroit votes still to come in, I think we win Michigan handily with Maine and Arizona, there's 270 electoral votes right there, but expand the map.

I mean, we've got Pennsylvania, we may not know that until Friday, but I would bet that Joe Biden wins Pennsylvania, and you look at Georgia, outstanding votes there in Atlanta coming in, Georgia very competitive. So the news for me is sunshine in America again, Joe Biden is going to be the next president of the United States of America, I'm not shocked at the map, but I'm happy. We won the Hillary states, we've now added Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan and very competitive in Georgia and Pennsylvania.

LEMON: Well --

MCAULIFFE: So what we see outstanding in Michigan is a great night for us.

LEMON: Well, I'm sure you can't see Scott Jennings, but I think he would beg to differ about at least some of what --

MCAULIFFE: OK --

LEMON: You said.

MCAULIFFE: True --

LEMON: Scott?

MCAULIFFE: I will bet dinner --

SCOTT JENNINGS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO GEORGE W. BUSH: Yes, look at me --

MCAULIFFE: With him at the best Virginia craft brewery. He and I can have a bet.

(LAUGHTER)

JENNINGS: Well, I would love to go out to dinner with you no matter who wins the election because as you're -- I'm sure you are an amazing conversationalist over any Virginia dinner. But you know, look, Republicans are pretty well stunned at just how well Donald Trump did when you look at what the polling said.

When you look at the House Republicans, when you look at the Senate races and you look at the resilience of the Republican Party and all these states with these large rural areas among working class voters, the attraction of new Hispanic voters and even some African-American voters. I don't know if Joe Biden or Donald Trump is going to win.

I do think the map looks like Biden has a pretty good chance of winning, but there's been a clear realignment here for the Republican Party to attract new working class voters of all races, and I think also, Don, there's been a rejection of the Democratic Party, of the media in some cases, of the liberal elites in rural America.

They feel like they are held to different rules, double standards and they've been brow-beaten over their support of Donald Trump. And they turned out in droves yesterday to let folks know it. So, I'm not disputing what the governor said about the map, but obviously Republicans had something to say last night, and it's not all bad for the party right now.

LEMON: Normally, you and I would be in a very intense conversation about the media, but now is not the time to fight. So, I'm going to bring Ana Navarro in. Ana, what are you seeing? Are you -- do you -- are you agreeing with Scott that this was, you know -- that they rejected the media and Democrats and Joe Biden?

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I will tell you what, they certainly fooled pollsters again. I mean, this morning, I woke up, you know, feeling that pollsters should be tarred and feathered. Look, I think both these guys are right. First, on Terry, his optimism -- I feel like that line from "When Harry Met Sally", I'll have what he's having because I'm you know -- after the -- seeing the numbers, somebody who supports Joe Biden in Florida, I feel like I've been beaten like a pinata.

[07:55:00]

But I think both of them are right. I think that the math with a patient electorate if we wait for all the numbers to be counted, all the votes to be counted, I'd rather be Joe Biden right now --

LEMON: Right --

NAVARRO: Than Donald Trump. That being said, I think Scott is also right. I think that you cannot -- you cannot pretend that they didn't -- that Republicans, Donald Trump Republicans, didn't make huge gains, particularly where I'm sitting right now, in Miami-Dade with Hispanics. To me, that is a very big story. And the fact is that -- you know, look, you know me, I have been talking for months like a broken record about how Miami has been bombarded by this narrative that the -- you know, the voting for any Democrat was voting for a socialist --

LEMON: Was voting for a socialist, yes --

NAVARRO: Was voting for a communist. And we saw it -- LEMON: I think --

NAVARRO: Pan out last night.

LEMON: Ana, I've got to get to the break.

NAVARRO: It might be false, but it doesn't mean it didn't work.

LEMON: I've got to get to the break, but I think you're right, and I think that it's something that should be analyzed, because you saw the ads in certain places and you hear people talking and focus groups about voting for a Democrat or voting for Biden was equivalent of voting for a socialist.

And I think we need to -- we're going to be discussing that over the coming weeks and really the coming months. But thank you all, I appreciate it, our special coverage of election 2020 is going to continue with John Berman and Alisyn Camerota, they are next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning everyone, I'm John Berman, I want to welcome our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. This is CNN's special live coverage of a remarkable moment in American history.

It's 8:00 a.m. here on the East Coast, 5 O'clock in the west and a divided nation wakes up without a winner in the presidential election, at least not yet. This nail-biter of a race is coming down to several key states where millions of votes are still being counted.