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Biden Takes Lead in Pennsylvania, On Verge of Presidency; New Arizona Votes: Biden's Lead Shrinks Slightly; Sources: Frenzy in White House as Realization Trump Could Lose Set In. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired November 06, 2020 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: So obviously you see that 13,000 and change lead that Joe Biden has 13,707 votes at the moment, that Joe Biden has over Donald Trump. As you know, Anderson, you were talking to Phil about, it has been a steady march from a Donald Trump lead as all this vote by mail comes in, as more of the Democratic areas get that vote by mail in.

It has allowed Joe Biden to overtake Donald Trump's lead, and we expect as more of that outstanding vote which we think the great majority is vote by mail and from some Democratic areas, that that lead is likely to grow for Joe Biden and pad that margin that he has there.

That will be meaningful in terms of decision making once we also get a fuller understanding of exactly or as much of an approximation as possible what is outstanding, what that universe is. Because our decision team has to get to a very high level of confidence that the number two candidate in the race, right now Donald Trump in Pennsylvania, doesn't have a pathway to become the number one candidate in the race and overtake Joe Biden in the case in Pennsylvania right now.

When the decision team can get to that very high level of confidence that that can't happen mathematically, that's when a projection gets made.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: You're talking about a decision team, just to explain to viewers, this is not you, me and Jake sitting around and Wolf sitting around in a room --

CHALIAN: No.

ANDERSON: -- and Erin saying, yes, OK let's call this thing. Who is this decision team?

CHALIAN: That would be a terrible idea if that was the case. It's a really good question.

ANDERSON: First of all, we all can't be in the same room together, it's a just a rule around here.

CHALIAN: That's true. No, it's -- it is team of professional statisticians and some people that have long-time worked with making projections in races, but these are people who are sort of in their own room, purely looking at data and spreadsheets coming in and doing the models to get to that high level of confidence place. But these are people, I mean I don't --

ANDERSON: They spend a lot of time in that room.

CHALIAN: -- I don't know how expert you are in math, but like these are people with real statistical expertise.

ANDERSON: Don't talk to me like I'm a child. You know I'm terrible at math, so that's why you're talking to me.

CHALIAN: Not at all.

ANDERSON: No, I know, I'm kidding. David, thanks very much. We'll continue to check in with you. We're getting word on new votes being counted -- I shouldn't say new votes, they are votes which have already been cast, they've just been counted, so new ballots that have been counted, finally. Let's go back to Phil Mattingly. I understand about a thousand of the votes that have been cast have now been counted.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've got 6,000 new votes from Pinal County in Arizona right here. It's the third largest county in the state, probably about 6 percent of the population here. I think we'll actually start at the topline first.

What your watching and what you've been watching progressively over the course of the last 24 hours is Joe Biden's lead continue to narrow. And has narrowed once again. Now at 39,769 in the state of Arizona. Round up to about 50 percent, 49 percent still very, very tight. Those votes coming in in Pinal County.

President Trump getting 3,860 of the votes, Vice President Biden, 2,683. So, what you're seeing,

COOPER: So, the lead narrowed by a 1,000.

MATTINGLY: The lead narrowed by a 1,000, yes, correct. What you're seeing and I think this kind of a good example of what's going on, is the small counties around Maricopa all still had outstanding vote. And we're seeing all of that start to come in, n, maybe not to completion, but at least some -- to some degree of what's outstanding.

Again, the ball game in this state remains Maricopa County. That's what we're waiting for about 140,000 votes in Maricopa County. How those votes come in will likely dictate how things go, and as we talked about last time, right now based on the last batch that came in and margin with which President Trump was able to win that batch, the Biden campaign would feel a little more comfortable about where they stand. But it underscores that there are red counties in this state, and those counties unlike what we saw in Pennsylvania, unlike what we've been seeing in Wisconsin, and Michigan, Pennsylvania currently, are not universally going -- leaning Democratic just because of mail-in vote because of how Arizona operates, because they've been doing mail- in voting for a long time. The timeline of when those mail-in ballots either were dropped off, mailed in.

So the composition is a little bit different here. President Trump is continuing to shrink the margin. I think the biggest question outstanding, obviously, you look at the largest county in the state, 60 percent of the voting population, biggest outstanding vote as it currently stands, is does President Trump run out of time?

COOPER: Right.

MATTINGLY: Does he run out of time and does he run out of vote? And right now he probably needs to win I would say probably 54 percent of the outstanding vote here in Maricopa to be able to close the top line margin right now and I think so that's what we're waiting for. And we'll wait and see if that actually happens.

COOPER: So about 142,000 just in Maricopa.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

COOPER: Do we know for the other --

MATTINGLY: Well, we can tick through and see what's outstanding. You've got Cochise County which obviously I think the biggest thing right now is you're looking at the total outstanding vote in Maricopa and it just dwarfs every other --

COOPER: Right.

MATTINGLY: -- county that you go through here. So you can even tick through -- you know you move into the rural counties, you have Graham County up here. It's just not a lot of vote. You know, it's 14,000 total votes, 5 percent left outstanding. You may pick up a couple thousand votes there. We just did Pinal.

[15:35:00]

You can keep moving around, and the reality of this state is it's going to be Maricopa and it's going to be how Maricopa breaks. That is going to decide where Arizona goes and whether or not it stays in Joe Biden's column and ends up in Joe Biden's column or whether or not President Trump can close the gap.

COOPER: I want to check in with our campaign correspondences Arlette Saenz and Kaitlan Collins. First let's go to Arlette. Arlette, you're with the Biden campaign in Wilmington, Delaware. What are you hearing?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, as the vote counting has stretched into the afternoon, Joe Biden and his campaign are closely and patiently watching these results hoping that one of these votes will soon put them over the top of 270 electoral votes.

Now Joe Biden has spent the day at home with his family and senior advisers watching these results and getting updates from his campaign as they've come in. But over the course of the past 24 hours, they have seen some hopeful signs, as you have seen Joe Biden overtake President Trump's leads in Georgia and Pennsylvania.

When it comes to Arizona, the Biden campaign has been arguing for the past few days that they believed that the margins might shrink a bit, but they ultimately don't believe his position in that state is going to be overcome.

Now, here at the Chase Center, you've seen a senior staff walking through the lobby of the hotel. You've also seen staff diligently working throughout the morning and afternoon trying to put some finishing touches here onsite where Joe Biden is expected to speak later this evening.

In fact, up near the stage, you can see some jeeps with camping chairs in their beds, potentially a place where some people can sit and watch. The remarks that are expected to come from both Joe Biden and Kamala Harris but for now the campaign is just patiently standing by waiting to get more results -- Anderson.

COOPER: Do we know what time Vice President Biden would be speaking, or I guess that obviously depends on when things are called?

SAENZ: Yes, it might depend on when things are called. The only guidance we've kind of gotten for the time being is that he's expected to speak in prime time. But that is something we'll be keep an eye on in the coming hours as we wait to see more as these results come in.

COOPER: Yes, Arlette Saenz in Wilmington, appreciate it. Let's go to Kaitlan Collins in Washington. Kaitlan, what are you hearing from the White House?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, the President Trump has also been watching a lot of television today but in a much different reaction than what Joe Biden is likely having. We are hearing that he is angry and that he is frustrated, complaining that there is not enough people defending him on television.

And he has issued a statement via the campaign a short while ago saying, that they want to make sure legal ballots are counted and that illegal ballots are not counted. Trying to really fine tune the argument and the conspiracies that he was putting out yesterday from the briefing room and he has continued to make these baseless claims about this widespread voter fraud that he says exists but his campaign has not been able to offer any proof.

But Anderson, is doesn't appear they're getting close to backing down from that argument because we have been told that the President is going to Dave Bossie, who is his Deputy Campaign Manager in 2016 in charge of leading this effort as they going into all these states, demanding recounts or filing lawsuits. So far, you know, that we've been seeing them do that but it's kind of

been his scattershot approach, so now they're trying to put someone -- one person, singular, in charge of that, so we'll see how that goes. But it makes it clear that that is the route that they're going.

And further evidence of that is the Vice President and other Trump allies have been calling and soliciting donations today for a legal defense fund because of course it is expensive to ask for recounts. It is expensive to file these lawsuits. And the Trump campaign doesn't have a lot of money. We already know that.

One thing that does not seem certain is whether or not we're going to see or hear from the President today. Last night they scheduled that press conference pretty abruptly. And judging that Joe Biden is going to be speaking on cameras today, they are wondering if the President is also going to want to do that, but, of course, they're not really sure what it is the President would say if he did come out -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes, Kaitlan Collins, appreciate it, thanks very much, We continue to follow the votes, we continue to count the votes. Bring you any updates that's warranted with Phil Mattingly, let's go back to Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: I mean as we count these, they're ticking up bit by bit, you saw a narrowing of the margin in Arizona. Let me just talk about this here, what the President's going to do tonight, on the back of what Kaitlan just said.

Nia, let me ask you, the President's decision to make, we all saw what happened last night. It was a disheartening moment to understate it in terms of when he spoke. But now you have hours here preparing for Joe Biden's anticipated prime time address. And we don't know what he's going to say, if he's going to say, if he's waiting for a call. There's a lot of uncertainty there. But what does President Trump do -- Nia?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, I think President Trump does what he always does, which is to inflame things, which is to engage in conspiracy theories and lies, which is what he has been doing so far. He lied and said that if he didn't win, that the election was rigged.

[15:40:00]

He lied and said that there was widespread cheating and voting fraud, voter fraud and his followers believed him and so now he is casting about with his allies for evidence of his lies, because he cannot admit that he lied.

So that is where we are, we're sort of in this suspended state because the President got us in this place because of his habit of lying and so that that is where we are. I imagine that when Biden comes out, the President will feel like he wants to come out, too, but I think we know from this President over these last many years what he will say. There is more about this idea that somehow this was stolen and Philadelphia did something wrong and Detroit did something wrong with zero evidence.

BURNETT: Mike, we are now seeing, you know, in a sense, it's the meatloaf being made, and it's a beautiful thing to watch, right? You've got ballot cams everywhere. You see these numbers ticking up by 47 votes at one moment, right. We are seeing a level of detail. You're seeing an official in Georgia go to a podium and saying, wait a minute, I've got to update my spreadsheet, and reading to the ones every vote in every county.

At what point, Mike, does someone say to the President -- and I guess the bigger question here is, is there anyone who can successfully say to the President, it's time to change what you're saying.

MIKE SHIELDS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, why should they? I mean he has a legal right until everything has been certified, until every ballot has been counted, he has a legal right to find out what the count is and to challenge any irregularities that he sees in a court of law. And that has been -- that goes up and down the system.

I believe, that for the sake of our democracy and for people who are conservatives who may wind up being on the other side of this, it's really important to follow that all the way through so that people can see that a judge has ruled on something. That something is legal or it isn't legal and everyone can have faith in the system. So I think calling on him to just quit, I think, is actually really dangerous. Because that is telling his people don't follow the law and go to court --

BURNETT: Of course, of course --

SHIELDS: -- just kind of give up and that's going to anger them.

BURNETT: Of course, of course, no one's talking about legal challenges, right. He's saying it's corrupt and it's rigged and if he doesn't win, people are cheating, and, you know, leveling all sorts of things which are categorically false, right. So that's what I'm talking about.

SHIELDS: But, there's always a message component to this, right? So let's look at Bill Nelson in Florida in 2018 who filed 25 lawsuits when he lost to Rick Scott. That happens all the time. There's a legal component of this and then there's a messaging component to this, which you talked about earlier by Dana Bash. That is a part of what this does.

BURNETT: The messaging component is the problem. So David let me give you a chance to weigh in on this though.

SHIELDS: -- well, there's court of public opinion that the messaging component matters for.

BURNETT: Yes. Go ahead, David.

CHALIAN: We're just missing one piece here which is that what the President hasn't acknowledged in any way ,right, is that Democrats overwhelmingly participated in this election in voting by mail, right? So that there is logic to the notion that on Tuesday night he had leads in states where the election day vote was the first vote tabulated, such as in Georgia, such as in Pennsylvania.

And then when the vote by mail got tabulated, it makes sense that since we know those voters were very much a majority, a preponderance of them were Democrats and voting for Biden, that Biden would eat into the lead he had built up in those states because of the method of voting, right?

I mean there's no acknowledgment from the President, he thinks it's not vote counting, he thinks it's stealing an election. That is not stealing an election

to count the legally cast votes in the method that they were cast, right, Mike?

SHIELDS: Well, right, and when they're counted, we will know that. And so the messaging won't match what the legal part of this is. But if you're trying to build support, look, I think they should build more support with Republicans.

They should be coming out with actual sort of benchmark cases or issues, irregularities that they've seen, that they can build support for. And say, hey, guys, this happened and have everyone go, yes, well, that needs to be investigated. We haven't seen enough of that for Republicans to sort of rally behind and I encourage them to do that as they do this --

BURNETT: Right.

SHIELDS: -- sort of public component of pushing their legal case. But in the end, there will be -- I think it's important to point out, there will be an legal decision at the end of this. And so don't get confused between what is publicly being said and what the legal part of this. And you can attack the President for making his case publicly but in the end, this is all going to be done in court.

BURNETT: Well, to be clear, he is -- and just I do want to make it clear though, he has levelled charges with absolutely and none of what of what you're

saying, right. There's been no evidence of anything that he has put behind it and that is

very significant at a very tense moment for the country.

SHIELDS: There is evidence of irregularities -- the party chair, Romney McDaniel, came out today and had a press conference and listed out some of the irregularities. Some of them may have been by accident. That happens all the time --

BURNETT: Of course it does

SHIELDS: -- in elections where people lose ballots --

BURNETT: In very small numbers.

[15:45:00] SHIELDS: -- and they get counted. Well, of course, but sometimes and the question is are there enough of them? But to have confidence in the system, we all have to be on the same page. As you were saying a week ago, everyone was saying every vote has to be counted, to have patience, wait for the process to play out. I think we all have to keep saying that. Even --

CHALIAN: Which is why the President of the United States should not say that election's being stolen. Precisely for what you're saying, Mike, that that's why you should call on the President to not be out there saying that this election has been stolen.

SHIELDS: Well, I do, look, I think as someone who's been through a lot of recounts most of the lawyers involved would say don't jump to a conclusion, don't say it's been fraud, don't say anything, follow the path of where these irregularities are and take them to court, and don't presuppose it. Because if it comes out in court, they were fraud then you have a case to make. So that would be my advice.

BURNETT: Karen, let me give you a final word.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure, look, I mean I think the important thing here is that the legal, quote, unquote, strategy which they're really as we have said, there does not seem to be any underpinnings to that, is being used as a messaging strategy designed to undermine our confidence in the system. That's part of what is so troubling and problematic.

I mean, you know, Mike, I've been in those tough rooms too. I was on that call in the wee hours in the morning in 2016 when were trying to make this decision and, you know, Barack Obama called Hillary Clinton and said, you can't do this. We can't put the country through this.

So there is a point at which you're right, let's follow the law, let's make sure we count every vote but there will come that moment where the President will have to decide to put the country ahead of himself and I think that is where many of us do not have confidence that he will do so while he is behaving in this destructive manner at the same time, which is really damaging our democracy in ways that, frankly, the American people who showed up in such powerful numbers during this coronavirus pandemic don't deserve that.

BURNETT: All right, thank you all very much, and we're going to go to Arizona where the votes keep moving, as I say, hour by hour. Biden's lead has been shrinking there. Can President Trump catch up? We'll be right back.

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[15:50:00]

COOPER: Though his lead has been tightening. Former Vice President Joe Biden is still ahead in Arizona as the votes are being counted still but President Trump has been cutting into Biden's lead. Kyung Lah is standing by in Phoenix. So, what's the latest -- Kyung? KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL REPORTER: Well, we're starting to see more of

the other counties outside of the one that I'm in reporting. And what we're is continued tightening in this race. So the latest numbers that we have from the Secretary of State shows that the separation between the former Vice President and President Trump is just under 40,000 votes here in Arizona. That's 1.5 percentage points. So it's very tight.

So when I speak to sources here in the state, political sources, both on the Democratic side and on the GOP side, they both say frayed nerves, it is exceptionally tight. The expectation is, is that it will continue to tighten but what they are looking at are the ballots that are coming out of here. You can see this machine has been going throughout the day here in Maricopa County.

This is where Phoenix is. This is the county where you have to win. And what they are looking for are those margin jumps and those margin jumps, according to a GOP source here, Anderson, not quite big enough to help the President overtake the lead. But, again, we have one more data release tonight of ballots so we have to see what's going to happen in about five hours or so.

COOPER: Yes, Kyung, I appreciate it. Thanks very much.

Joining me now is Katie Hobbs, Arizona's Secretary of State. Secretary Hobbs, thanks so much for taking time out to talk with us. I know how busy you are. How is the vote count going in Arizona and when do you expect to have, I guess to have a final result?

KATIE HOBBS, SECRETARY OF STATE, ARIZONA: It's really, it's going as expected. We're around 250 to 270,000 left in the state, 137,000 of those are in Maricopa County.

And as you just heard they're going to update more vote totals from today's tabulations tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. And that should bring their totals down below 100,000 ballots. They've been doing about 60,000 to 70,000 at a time, so that's what we're probably looking at tonight. And they have told us they expect to be counting through the weekend and should have pretty much everything, except for provisional ballots wrapped up this weekend.

COOPER: You said, I just want to be clear. So 250 to 270,000 outstanding votes in the entire state and you said about 130,000 in Maricopa County?

HOBBS: Yes.

COOPER: Can you say some of the other counties that have high numbers left?

HOBBS: Sure. Pinal is sitting around 34,000, Pinal is between Maricopa and Pima County. Pima's at about 25,000. Those the biggest outstanding. Apache County up in the northeast corner is at close to 10,000. And then Cochise in the southeast corner is also close to 10,000. COOPER: And you said the next batch which we're expecting, Kyung was

saying in several hours, is that going to be statewide or is that going to be from one particular county?

HOBBS: The counties have been updating as they get batches to update and posting the totals throughout the day. Maricopa has been doing theirs at 7:00 p.m. Arizona time daily and so that will be the biggest batch of ballots that you see being posted today.

[15:55:04]

COOPER: You filed an amicus brief. Just what is the latest on that?

HOBBS: So this is the called SharpieGate lawsuit and our amicus brief focuses on the timelines that statutorily election officials have to meet. What happened when the lawsuit was filed was that plaintiffs asked for an expedited schedule and now, they're clearly trying to drag it out to delay our official canvases, the counties and then the state's official canvasses of the election results.

COOPER: Secretary Katie Hobbs, I appreciate all your time, thank you.

Up next the latest on the battle count in all the key battleground states. We are keeping an eye on it, The latest numbers ahead.

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