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CNN Live Event/Special

Interview With Rep. Paul Mitchell (R-MI): Electoral College Casts Votes For President. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired December 14, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:50]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome to out viewers here in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer in the CNN Election Center.

History is unfolding in America right now. We are following the Electoral College live as it prepares to confirm president-elect Joe Biden's win. In just moments, electors will cast ballots in Oregon and Montana, next hour, California, with its 55 electoral votes, the biggest prize out there. That will carry president-elect Biden across the critical 270 threshold needed to win.

At this moment, president-elect Biden has 229 electoral votes. President Trump has 181.

More votes, by the way, are coming in right now. Just moments ago, in Missouri, the electors confirmed their 10 electoral votes for President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence, 10 electoral votes in Missouri, in Missouri, going for Trump and Pence.

In Texas, meanwhile, second biggest prize of the day, a major haul of 38 electoral votes, electors just finished voting in Texas. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is my honor to report to you that we have finished tallying the votes for the presidential electors of the state of Texas. And the vote totals are as follows, all 38 votes for President Donald J. Trump for president of the United States of America.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, they're clearly happy over there in that room over in Texas, 38 electoral votes for Trump and Pence.

Take a look at that. You see the numbers up there, 229 for Biden so far, 229 for Trump. We're watching. We're standing by for more to come in, including the biggest prize of the day, California -- Jake, over to you.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Thanks, Wolf.

Typically, Americans don't see the hard work of democracy playing out behind the scenes, but with President Trump refusing to admit defeat and accept reality, we are here following the Electoral College, along with our correspondent.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny covers president-elect Biden for us in Wilmington, Delaware.

Jeff, the president-elect is going to speak tonight. What can you tell us about what he's going to say?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, president-elect Joe Biden is going to address the nation tonight after those Electoral College votes come in.

And, really, a campaign that played out through the rhythms of this pandemic certainly is ending on a day, one of the best days in terms of news for the vaccine.

And I am told that Mr. Biden is going to address that this evening. But he's also going to address head on democracy and what we have been watching play out for the last six weeks or so and, indeed, today. Let's take a look at a couple of excerpts we're just getting in that he is planning to say tonight.

He's going to say this: "In America, politicians don't take power. The people grant it to them. The flame of democracy was lit in this nation a long time ago. And we now know that nothing, not even a pandemic or an abuse of power, can extinguish that flame."

Then he will go on to talk about the challenges ahead, saying this: "There's urgent work in front of all of us, getting the pandemic under control, to getting the nation vaccinated against this virus."

So, Jake, clearly, we have seen president-elect Biden really operate with a cool temperature, allowing this to play out over the last six weeks. But, tonight, he's going to address head on this assault on democracy that President Trump and indeed many Republicans in the Congress and elsewhere have tried to do.

We do not know if he will mention President Trump by name. He has not usually, but he's delivered so many speeches now, first on November 7, the evening when he accepted victory, and then that Thanksgiving address, where he asked the nation for patience and he felt their pain.

So, tonight, I'm told that will be a combination of both, but also turning the page forward. Yes, there's reason for optimism because of the vaccine, but also so much work with the economy, and yet the second stage of this a COVID-19 fight.

[16:05:04]

But tonight is a major moment for president-elect Biden. He will be delivering a speech tonight from Wilmington -- Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, the pandemic continues to get worse. We just passed 300,000 dead Americans in the last few minutes.

ZELENY: Right.

TAPPER: Jeff Zeleny in Wilmington, Delaware, thank you so much.

CNN's Jim Acosta is at the White House for us.

And, Jim, it seems as though President Trump is already looking past these Electoral College results. He's trying to steal the election in a different way.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, I suppose you could say that, Jake. That's right. These efforts to sabotage the election will continue over here at the White House.

I talked to a White House adviser just a short time ago, who said that the president is already looking past the Electoral College toward January 6, and that is when the official tallying of the electoral votes occurs in the House of Representatives. The vice president, Mike Pence, will be presiding over that.

And what we typically see during that kind of ceremony -- it's a ceremonial event -- you will see -- what we're expecting to see, according to this White House adviser, is Republican House members challenging those results.

Now, this adviser described this as a longshot opportunity for the president to have these results thrown out. I would describe it more as no shot, because even though these Republican House members may make some noise on the House floor, they need a senator to sign onto these efforts. It's unlikely that's going to happen.

If it does happen, the Democrats control the House and they're not likely to go along with any of this. And so this is doomed to go nowhere. But, Jake, the president is seeing rays of hope, glimmers of hope, both real and imagined, and he's grasping at those what he perceives to be glimmers of hope.

We should also note, Jake, we haven't seen the president, haven't heard from the president today. We did briefly see the White House press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany. She was doing a live shot on a different network earlier this afternoon. She walked past the cameras.

I tried to ask her whether or not the president would accept today's Electoral College results. She did not answer the question. She said she couldn't stop and talk to us because it was raining, even though she had one of her aides next to her holding an umbrella over her head.

Jake, as you know, having been over at the White House, we do things in the rain all the time. So, it's unclear why she wouldn't stop to take that question, perhaps because she didn't want to answer it. But one thing we should also note, Jake, of course -- and you know

this as well -- we don't need the president to accept the results of the Electoral College. That would be nice. But we're not seeing any signs that he's about to do that, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, the Constitution does not require that the loser be a good loser at all.

ACOSTA: That's right.

TAPPER: Jim Acosta, thanks so much -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, thank you.

Electors in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts just allocated their 11 electoral votes. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are 11 votes cast for Joseph R. Biden as president of the United States. There are 11 votes cast for Kamala D. Harris as vice president of the United States.

The committee is hereby discharged and thanked for their service.

With the assistance of the secretary of the commonwealth's office--

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, with those 11 electoral votes in Massachusetts, Biden now has 240, Trump has 229. You need 270 to be elected president of the United States.

We're standing by. That's going to happen in the next hour, when California and its 55 electoral votes are recorded -- Jake, back to you.

TAPPER: Thanks, Wolf.

I want to go to a special exclusive interview we have right now.

This afternoon, retiring Republican Congressman Paul Mitchell of Michigan sent a letter to the chair of the Republican National Committee, fellow Michigander Ronna McDaniel, as well as to the House minority leader, Kevin McCarthy, telling them that he is asking the clerk of the House to change his party identification from Republican to independent.

Congressman Mitchell has also said that he will be withdrawing from his engagement and association with the Republican Party at the national and state level, though he will still endorse and help candidates with whom he shares principles.

Joining us now is Congressman Mitchell of Michigan.

Congressman, thank you so much for joining us. You have clearly been disgusted, based on your Twitter feed, for weeks

with the unfounded voter fraud claims and conspiracy theories being pushed by the president.

Was the final straw last week, when a majority of your colleagues, House Republicans, signed onto that baseless Texas lawsuit that would have disenfranchised all of the voters of your home state of Michigan, as well as Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Georgia?

REP. PAUL MITCHELL (R-MI): Well, Jake, I believe that any candidate has the ability to request a recount, to go through legal processes if they think there's some basis that the vote is not reasonable or some founded conspiracy concerns, concern about fraud.

But we have gone through the process. And, as I saw that amicus brief, as well as the discussions over the weekend in the national media, it became clear to me that I could no longer be associated with the Republican Party, that leadership does not stand up and say, the process, the election is over. It's over today.

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And then I saw the president tweet out it's not over to January 20. Somehow, he's going to continue to combat this.

The people have voted. As I say in my letter, I voted for Donald Trump. I supported the administration policies 95, 96 percent of the time, the last two terms. I have been active in the national state party.

But this party has to stand up for democracy first, for our Constitution first, and not political considerations, not just a candidate, not simply for raw political power. And that's what I feel is going on.

And I have had enough.

TAPPER: And for people who don't know, as you note, you have been with President Trump 95, 96 percent of the time.

MITCHELL: Yes.

TAPPER: You voted for him in 2016, 2020. You're a member of the conservative Republican Study Group in the House. You whipped votes for Republicans in Congress.

MITCHELL: Yes.

TAPPER: You raised money for Republican candidates.

And now you're going to be an independent, because your letter, as I noticed, it CC's the clerk of the House.

MITCHELL: Yes.

TAPPER: Tell us what it feels like in this moment. And how are you going to respond to critics who attack you as -- I mean, you know they're going to call you a RINO, even though, obviously, you're a very conservative Republican.

MITCHELL: Well, the definition of RINO has changed in the last couple of years, hasn't it, Jake? RINO now is if you don't follow whatever the president decides is the theme of the day or the week or the month.

I'm a conservative. I'm a fiscal conservative. I believe in small government. How am I going to respond? Frankly, I'm not. I'm going to stand on my principles. And, yes, I will take abuse from both the far left and the far right.

In my opinion, the far -- the extremes of both parties are dragging their parties and this country off a cliff. The majority of Americans are in the middle. The majority Americans want solutions to problems, want us to address them, and not see who can have a political win, not see who can grab political power for all it's worth, and actually do something to solve a problem for the American people.

And, frankly, we haven't done enough of that. We haven't done enough the last two terms. And this election simply confirms for me that it's all about power first. And that, frankly, is disgusting and demoralizing.

TAPPER: The Texas lawsuit is -- I mean, it's nuts. I mean, anybody who reads it understands that it's not based in fact, it's not based in evidence. It's just based in ignorance and conspiracy theories; 126 of your colleagues, House Republicans, signed their names onto it.

And I'm wondering, do you think they actually believe this insanity, or is there some other reason why a majority of House Republicans actually support disenfranchising Americans in four states, for nothing other than, as you put it, a power grab?

MITCHELL: Well, one of them is my state, as you know, Michigan.

And I have not spoken with hardly any of them. I have spoken with one other member who believes there are concerns with some states or others have done.

But I don't -- I didn't believe the brief was appropriate or valid. I believe the lawsuit was -- I'm trying to think of a polite term for it.

TAPPER: You don't have to be polite.

MITCHELL: It was ridiculous.

What it says is, if Texas thinks that other states have administered their election laws in a manner they don't like, that they can overturn those votes, that they can overturn those states. We're a republic of states. States have the ability to determine their election laws.

And, in fact, in the concern about Michigan, a federal judge ruled that the secretary of state could send out absentee ballot applications. They did not send out ballots. They sent applications to everyone if they wanted to get a ballot, given the COVID-19.

There's nothing in the law that precludes that. However, apparently, Texas didn't like it. OK. I wasn't aware that we had to respond to Texas whenever we had an election in Michigan or any other state.

So, I just think it's one more desperate attempt. You will note that they chose those states, whereas Montana and other states did similar things to what Michigan and others did, but -- and North Carolina did. I think North Carolina allowed eight or nine days late ballots, and they counted. They didn't challenge North Carolina.

But they did challenge Michigan and other states. It's just blatantly an effort to say, we will do anything we can overturn the election that we lost.

As I say in my letter, I have told you, Jake, anybody that gets into politics has to be willing to accept winning and losing with some level of grace and maturity. I have done both. Losing is brutal. It is -- it's personal. It hurts.

But if you're not willing to accept that, you should not be in political leadership. You should not be. This country needs it desperately. And, unfortunately, we haven't seen it demonstrated as much as we should.

TAPPER: We have seen these local election officials, including the speaker of the statehouse in Michigan today, putting out a letter saying that, if he were to challenge the electors going to Joe Biden, that would set a horrible precedent and it would wreak havoc.

[16:15:00]

We saw a guy on your canvassing board -- Aaron Van Langevelde, I believe, is his name -- showing more courage and character than House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and House Minority Whip Steve Scalise combined.

Why? They don't actually believe this crackpot stuff, do they? It's just they're afraid of Donald Trump?

MITCHELL: I haven't spoken with them, so I can't tell you what rationale that they have for supporting this, other than trying to support the president.

I can tell you that I appreciated Speaker Chatfield, the Statehouse speaker, speaking up today. And he did so in response to a state legislator that, when asked about they had some plans in Lansing for continuing protests, they were asked, well, people could feel safe, correct? He said, well, he couldn't guarantee that.

We had a Statehouse member talk about the fact that violence may occur today. In fact, we had a -- credible threats of violence, as determined by the Michigan State Police, against electors. The head of security shut down all the state office buildings around there. When you can't conduct an election without threats of violence, we

become a Third World nation. What are we, Venezuela? I mean, it's ridiculous.

And to have an elected official, in this case a Statehouse member, say, well, he wasn't really sure if there would be violence or not, you ought to stand and up say there should be no violence. We do not hold elections in which there's violence.

This country has come too far. And that's why I'm troubled. And that's why I ultimately decided to lead the party, because our leadership needs to stand up and say, no, we have a process. We respect it. And we respect the vote of the American people.

And when they have voted, we move on to govern the nation, and not play politics.

TAPPER: What is the future of the Republican Party, do you think? Because we see all these House Republicans siding with these crazy theories.

There are now adherents to QAnon who are in the House of Representatives in the Republican Party. Obviously, these are not the values that you stand for you. You have -- we should just note again for people who don't know, you criticized President Trump for his response to Charlottesville. You criticized President Trump when he launched that racist attack against for congresswomen of color, the Democratic women, three of whom were born in the U.S. One was a naturalized citizen.

And when he told them to go back where they came from, you called that out. But, again, you're a conservative Republican, like, in your heart, and you're a conservative. If there's not a place for you in the Republican Party, where are people like you supposed to go?

MITCHELL: I'm not sure what I do next.

But let me make a comment about the send them back, because it still enrages me. And my youngest son, Jake, we adopted him from Russia eight years ago. And anybody that would tell me he's not a citizen, he doesn't have the same rights that you or I have, I have to tell you, I'd knock them on their ass.

That's not what our nation stands for. So, I'm going to work with candidates that reflect principles that I think our country should stand for. I will -- those that respect other people, be they immigrants, new citizens, born here or not, and because I think our country's better than what we have seen.

And, yes, I did speak out about a number of those things and took a fair amount of heat about those. But I think that's the responsibility of anybody that's elected to leadership or is a leader. I did that.

And that's why I'm ending my tenure in Congress by speaking out in this case that our leadership owes us better than what we're seeing right now. And until I see that, I'm going to be an independent, because it's simply unacceptable.

TAPPER: One last question for you, sir.

What do you think President Trump -- after today, what do you think President Trump should do after today's vote is over, the Electoral College? Is it time for him to concede? Is it time for the House minority leader and the Senate majority leader to acknowledge that president-elect Biden won?

MITCHELL: Well, quite some time ago, as you're aware, I indicated the president should acknowledge president-elect Biden, invite him to the White House, he and the first -- first future first lady, although they have been there before, clearly, and begin their personal interaction to transition the government.

That's the responsible thing to do. That's the thing our country is so dependent upon. It's time. The Electoral College will vote today. They will -- it will vote to make formally, finally, Vice President Biden as the president-elect.

And, as I indicated, I voted for President Trump. I had concerns about the policies the Democrats put forward. But I can accept the reality is, we will have a new president on January 20. And we need to move forward in governing this nation.

[16:20:00]

And I won't be in Congress, but I will try to speak out as much as I can about what I believe this nation needs to be.

TAPPER: Thank you for your integrity, sir. We appreciate it. And I know you're going to be able to look your son in the eyes and tell him about how you conducted yourself as a congressman.

So, we appreciate it.

MITCHELL: Thanks, Jake. Take care.

TAPPER: All right, talk to you soon.

Let's chat about that, because, I mean, that's a very conservative Republican. Anybody who's familiar with Congressman Mitchell's voting record, he is a very conservative Republican. He has been there for President Trump all along the way, except for, obviously, these moments of real indecency.

And, obviously, this deranged campaign to undermine democracy was too much for him. He leaves the party.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That was remarkable, Jake. And it was remarkable in its normalcy. He sounded like a normal person who goes into politics to be a public servant, to fight for the philosophical ideals that he believes. In this case, it is conservatism fiscally and socially.

And the fact is, he is leaving Congress, he's retiring on his own volition. But he also is leaving a party. And he didn't say it this way, but what he described in that interview was a party that left him, not him leaving the party, a party that has now pledged its fealty to a man by the name of Donald J. Trump, not a party that is focused primarily on all the things that he believes in, but also and included in the philosophy, the conservative philosophy, he believes in, the fundamentals of democracy.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it's a shame that you can't be a Republican these days and also believe in democracy, that people's votes should count, and that they shouldn't be overturned by state legislatures or by the Supreme Court or what have you.

But it's a reflection of the fact that this has been a party for several year now that hasn't really talked about ideology in the classic sense, small government, about even social conservatism, whether you are anti-abortion or what have you. That's the reality of the party.

And I think it is telling that he is leaving Congress, because he knows that there is no future for a Republican who doesn't want to toe the line of Donald Trump. And the problem with the sort of church of Donald Trump in the Republican Party right now is that it's incredibly unpredictable.

It's hard to know what else you will be asked to endorse next. One day, it is the travel ban, the so-called Muslim ban. The next day, it is these election shenanigans. The next day, it is telling these congresswomen who were American citizens to go back to where they came from.

It is incredibly unpredictable, because there's no principle behind it. It's all about what's in the president's gut, what he wants to do, what works best for him. And for someone like Congressman Mitchell, there's no room left. He has, unfortunately, it seems, no choice to leave. But it does make me wonder -- well, I shouldn't say it does make me wonder.

We know that there are other Republicans in Congress who are not leaving who believe the same thing and are not speaking up about it, because it's not allowed, and many of them will remain silent if they want to keep their seats. But the folks who are speaking up, many of those people are doing so because they no longer have to go back to the Trump electorate and ask for two more years.

TAPPER: There are only three Republicans in the House I can think of that have staked out this principled position the election, Congressman Denver Riggleman, who was retired by his constituents and is leaving Congress, for, by the way, presiding over a same-sex wedding, Congressman Mitchell, who is about to no longer be a Republican, and Adam Kinzinger is the only one who was reelected.

That's it, one House Republican with principles, at least vocally. Remarkable -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Jake, appreciate it. Thanks very much. Fascinating interview.

I want to bring in our team here to talk about what we have just heard and also what we have been witnessing now throughout the day, Rick Santorum, Van Jones, David Axelrod, Gloria Borger.

Gloria, what do you make of what Congressman Mitchell was saying?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I thought it was a stunning interview.

And I'm actually sorry that he's decided not to stay in Congress, because I think he would have an awful lot to contribute, were he to remain there. But what he was talking about was a Republican Party that has chosen Donald Trump over democracy.

And he couldn't take that or stand with it anymore. And when he asked, Jake, the question, what are we, Venezuela, you have to think, that's actually not funny. That is a real question that you have to be asking of these Republicans.

[16:25:02]

And I think the next question we have to start asking is, what happens after Donald Trump? If he remains on the scene or kind of on the scene or still holds these Republicans in thrall, and they feel beholden to him in some way, what will they give up next? What will they do next?

And how can the Republican Party ever return to what it was before Donald Trump, which I always thought was a Republican Party that had some sense of principles and ideas and beliefs, which, as Abby was saying before, they have all abandoned in the age of Donald Trump? And they don't care what they used to care about.

They just care about one person, and that's him.

COOPER: Senator Santorum, the night of the election, when Joe Biden won, you said that the president was going to put the country before himself and at a certain point would put the country before himself.

When's he going to do that? Because he's not doing that yet.

RICK SANTORUM, CNN COMMENTATOR: Yes, I would agree with you that he hasn't come to that moment where he feels comfortable in conceding, which I think is wrong. I mean, obviously, we're going to see here -- and I sort of disagree with the tone that the panel and Gloria said, look, that the Republican Party has somehow abandoned democracy.

What's going on right now? I mean, they're counting the votes and Joe Biden's going to win. And they're counting votes in that -- I don't know of any Republican legislature, and there were several of them -- they could have gone forward and put forth a different slate. None of them did.

They stood up to Donald Trump, because I can tell you, because I talked to a bunch of them from Pennsylvania, there was a lot of pressure on them to do it. They didn't. So, the idea that supporting Donald Trump in his effort to get to the bottom of fraud, which I think a lot of Republicans absolutely feel there was a lot of bad behavior in this election, but that is not the same as disrupting democracy.

Democracy is working. It's working -- it's working today. I don't see any Republican blocking that democracy from working. So I think the narrative that somehow Republicans have abandoned all their sanity and have thrown in with Donald Trump just doesn't fit with the facts of what we're seeing happening today.

BORGER: Can I just say that there are those 126 Republicans in the House at the national level who supported that Texas lawsuit, which we all know was gibberish, which was gibberish.

SANTORUM: And they lost. And they lost

BORGER: But I will agree with you that, at the local and state level, there have been some very courageous Republican officials, but at the national level, not so much.

SANTORUM: Supporting the lawsuit is not the same as -- you're allowed to -- there are lots of lawsuits that are filed that are frivolous or bad, and people are allowed to get on them. But that doesn't mean that you're disrupting democracy.

That's actually part of democracy.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: David, if you know a lawsuit is frivolous -- and these are supposedly intelligent people -- and if they watch any responsible coverage of this, they will be told these lawsuits are frivolous, because -- and the allegations are baseless, and they're -- in fact, some of these lawsuits are laughable.

There's been 50 law cases brought. None of them have gone through. The Supreme Court now twice has just totally eliminated this.

The idea -- David, I mean, is just the normal course of events?

(CROSSTALK)

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No.

Let's be clear. On Saturday night, the president of the United States went on national television and said his successor would be an illegitimate president, based on fraudulent charges of fraud.

The fact is that court after court after court have tossed out these charges for lack of evidence. A lot of the things that were tossed out of court were included in that complaint in Texas. They have no foundation.

And the president of the United States is about delegitimating his successor.And it's stunning to me that 70 to 80 percent of Republicans now accept the fact that somehow this election -- that this election was riddled with fraud. There simply is no evidence.

If there were evidence, then the president's team would have brought it to court. And they could not. So, I think the president is right now about the business of trying to delegitimate his successor.

And my problem is that once you start undermining these norms, it's very hard to repair them. It's very hard to restore them. And I think those 126 were a party to that.

COOPER: And, by the way -- and, Van, I mean, Rick is saying that he seems to believe that there was widespread or a lot of shenanigans going on and that needs to be uncovered.

If -- what the president is doing, Van, is raising money off this. It's not just he's subverting democracy. It's not just that he is saying things which are not true and getting people believe it. He's also making huge amounts of money for it.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He certainly is. And I think this is a very dangerous conversation we're beginning to have.