Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Voters Hitting Polls In Critical Elections, Senate Majority At Stake; High-Stakes Runoff Races To Decide Control Of The Senate; CNN: Sen. Cruz Will Object To Arizona Certification; Trump Ups Pressure On Pence, Falsely Claiming VP Has Power To Overturn. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired January 05, 2021 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: If Democrats Jon Ossoff and Rev. Raphael Warnock win both of these races, they pick up two seats and they will gain control of the Senate for Democrats.

They then have 50 senators matching the balance of power with Republicans and Vice President-Elect Kamala Harris would be able to break any tie. If Republicans incumbent David Perdue or Kelly Loffler win just one of these races, the Republicans would keep control of the Senate by a slim margin.

And one indicator of just how important today is, is the amount of money that has been thrown in, we're talking more than half a billion dollars. CNN National Correspondent Gary Tuchman is at a polling place in Fulton County, which is the most populous county in Georgia. Gary, tell us what it is like they're at the polls?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Brianna, we want to welcome you to the epicenter of American political drama. The US Senate represents the people of all of these United States, but it's the people of this state, the State of Georgia who will make the decision who controls the U.S. Senate?

Therefore, there has been a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of attention paid to this election. We are at the Cathedral of St. Philip. It's in the Bulkhead neighborhood in Atlanta, which is the largest city in the States, and Fulton County, as you said, which is the largest county in the state and there has been a steady stream of voters coming in today.

When the polls open at seven this morning, there are 50 or 60 people waiting outside in the dark to get in. We have had lines like that since then, just the people you see behind me several people come in all the time but that's not really the issue that people voted today because there was 15 days here in Fulton County of early voting before this.

Today, you have to come to the one precinct in your county you're assigned to but for the 15 days of early voting there were 30 locations you could go as a Fulton County resident any of those 30 locations it was a lot easier to vote and therefore we have record setting voting totals for a one off Senate election here in the state of Georgia and Fulton County and throughout the State of Georgia.

I think one thing that's very important to point out because not even all the voters here know that in Georgia is why there are two Senate elections in first place taking place in Georgia? They usually staggered you have one cent election every two or four years in each state. The reason is one of the elections is the regular election that's the one between Purdue and Ossoff.

The other election between Loffler and Warnock is a special election it's being held because Johnny Isaacson, who was the Republican Senator from the State of Georgia, retired because of health reasons. So Loffler was appointed to the seat by the Governor last year, she did not win any election. So she is now running to win her first election and continue her term in the seat.

But this term for the special election we should point out is only for two years a normal Senate term of six years. This is for the two years remaining of Johnnie Isaacson's term and then the person if they wanted to continue, as a U.S. Senator but have to run again in two years.

One more thing I want to point out to you, Brianna. It is just an unbelievable all the television advertisements because of the special election. And in fact, this past Sunday, I was watching my TV I was ready to watch my Chicago Bears beat the Green Bay Packers and unfortunately that did not happen but during every commercial break during the game almost every commercial was for the Senate races.

Lots of people have come in today enthusiastic about voting also enthusiastic about that scene any more political commercials, Brianna?

KEILAR: It is like an onslaught and I'm sure that in Georgia they're not quite as used to that. So they will welcome having some maybe regular commercials back on their TV. Gary, thank you so much for a look at what's happening there on the ground in Fulton County, Georgia?

Seven hours left now for voters to have their say in this pivotal race. So let's take a step back and revisit what led to this high stakes runoff that we're witnessing? And we have CNNs John King, the person to do this for us. Let's do first things first here John, how did we get here?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Beginning 2020 just won't quit you it just wanted to continue on into 2021. That would be one way to put it. Let's go back in time. Look, we're going to fill this in.

And as you know it in seven hours, we start to get the results. These are two incredibly consequential run offs not only for the people of Georgia, but they will determine who controls the United States Senate.

So let's go back in time as you noted, go back to 2020 just a couple of months ago. Number one, the narrow Biden victory in Georgia that is a huge deal the President of the United States still contest it, but Joe Biden won fair and square.

But let's look at the Senate races and this is why we got here. If you come back to the Senate races here number one David Perdue, he beat if you want to say beat John Ossoff but he didn't get over 50 percent that's the state law in Georgia.

You have to get over 50 percent to win the election. David Perdue came up just short. Jon Ossoff was close David Perdue just shy of 50 that's why you have the runoff for that six year term. As Gary just noted David Perdue was an incumbent senator. This is for a full six year term.

Then you had the more complicated race here and Raphael Warnock the Democrat actually got the most votes in this race. But remember, you had the Republican Congressman Doug Collins very crowded primary for that special election to replace Senator Isaacson.

And so again, nobody got over 50 the top to show up in the run off today to win what is essentially a two-year term? Whoever wins this seat has to run again when the Isaacson term expires in 2022 that's why we're here, Brianna very dramatic day.

KEILAR: And we know that you know the early voting in November played such a monumental role. So what are the numbers for these runoff races?

[12:05:00]

KING: The numbers are again off the chart they do not match the presidential election and we do not expect overall turnout to match a presidential election. That's when turnout is always the highest. But let me show you some numbers just to show you.

Here's the total numbers about 4 million votes were cast early in the Presidential Election and 3 million votes were cast early in these runoff. So that is extraordinary for a runoff election. The question is, is it down by enough that it tilts the race one way or the other?

We don't know that just yet but that is an extraordinary high number and it shows that voters still want to play and participate. Let me break it down a little bit for you. You have in person early voting. Remember because of the pandemic all across the country people voting in different ways in person early voting more than 2 million just shy of 1,966,000 absentee ballots that's one of the challenges as we count them tonight.

Number one, how much of a turnout difference is there in these run offs? Does it affect the winners in the end? And does it affect as we go county by county tonight? We have to be careful again, just like we were back in November. Some counties will count these pretty quickly. Some if they have a big Election Day turnout will be focused on that first so, we're going to have to count a lot of votes and walk through it all.

KEILAR: Yes, and if its close, you can't extrapolate from it is easily you have to wait and wait. So we'll see if that happens. But you know, our colleague Donnie O'Sullivan, John interviewed several Trump supporters at a rally this rally yesterday for Loeffler and Purdue and let's listen to some of what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONNIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Do you think that Trump will eventually accept that that Biden is the next president?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, that is not Biden isn't. Trump is the next president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to the inauguration for Trump. I've booked it before the election because I have faith. He's going to be there and he's going to be doing - he's going to be elected.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): So he's going to be president for two more weeks.

LUANN NICOSIA, TRUMP SUPPORTER: No, he won't be president till 2024.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): In Georgia. Republicans run the elections, right?

SHARON GOLDSTEN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Secretary of State all that. They've said they've investigated and rescue investigated. They've counted three or four times.

GOLDSTEN: Right.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): And they said Biden is still won. Do you accept that?

GOLDSTEN: No, not all Republicans are good people just because they're Republicans.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Trump is keep saying that he didn't actually lose that the election was stolen. Do you think it's just time for him to give up and like by to take over?

TINA SAENZ, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Yes, step up and say, let's walk away.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Yes.

SAENZ: Let him do his job. Yes.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): You're in the - you're the only people today I was spoken to here who have said that. But why do you think that's important?

SAENZ: Because there's no one who's the better person?

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Will you accept Joe Biden as President?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he'll never be my president. O'SULLIVAN (on camera): OK. But you know you accept that he's going to be inaugurated?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don't.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): I mean, how could that change at this point?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it could be civil war. You never know.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): You don't actually want the Civil War do you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't, show us the voting machines, show us the ballots, and shows us that this was a fair election, or we'll never accept another vote again, ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: John, how worried is Republicans about turnout because of the president's messaging and this argument that the election in November was illegitimate?

KING: Number one, Brianna, it's just sad to hear that from good citizens of the State of Georgia in the United States who believe who believe because of what the president keeps telling them. The president had his chance in court time and time and time again, they failed to present any evidence.

They simply fail to. They had their chances in court time and time again and I just going to emphasize this again, it's close. It's very close. But Joe Biden won the state by just shy of 12,000 votes, he won the state of Georgia.

Even if you flipped Georgia, Joe Biden would still be President of the United States in the Electoral College count but because of what the president says you hear that from his supporters. So you raise a very important question.

Number one for me is in the Atlanta suburbs, a lot of Joe Biden support some of it comes from bias toward the president in the suburbs. Do those Republicans; moderate Republicans who voted Democrat for president, do they play in the Senate runoffs now that now that Donald Trump is not on the ballot? That's one question.

Your other question, I think is more goes to the point of where was the president last night? He was in Dalton, Georgia, up here in Whitfield County, why? Because Republicans are looking at that early voting and they're worried a little bit about the turnout numbers in these very conservative parts of Georgia including up here in the northwestern part of the state in Northern Georgia.

That's why the President picked Whitfield County for his rally. It's pretty small 23 of 159 counties. So it's in the middle of the counties there but it's not a huge population center but it's where the Trump base must come out.

So that's one of the things we'll watch tonight. Turnout will be down everywhere. It's not a Presidential Election. The question is, is it down disproportionately? Do more Democrats come out? Do more Republicans come out?

This is one of the places we will see if the Trump voters say the president keeps criticizing the Governor criticizing the system. We're not playing or as a lot of people think the president came and stirs up a fight. His people will come out to play.

KEILAR: Alright, and we will be watching tonight. I know John King; you're going to be all over this tonight on special coverage. Maybe you've already started your caffeine regimen. It could be late night.

KING: That's all right. That's why they brew espresso.

KEILAR: That's right. All right, John King thanks so much. We'll see you later. Joe Biden's confirmation as next President of the United States is certain who will control the Senate is not and it depends on how Georgians vote today?

Joining me now is Sarah Binder. She is a Political Science Professor at George Washington University and she's a Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution.

[12:10:00]

KEILAR: And Sarah, you've written an entire book on congressional gridlock. So walk us through the first scenario. What does it mean for Democrats if they do win both seats tonight?

SARAH BINDER, POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Well sure, winning both seats is just critical for giving Biden and the Democrats agenda a fighting chance to succeed, right? Those two seats would hand nominal control of the Senate agenda to a very slim Democratic majority.

Now, there are limits to what small majorities can do in the Senate because they need super majorities really to get the big things done. So big core Democratic initiatives those probably wouldn't happen voting rights, climate change health care.

But with the 50/50 Senate and Vice President Harris on standby to break tie votes Democrats could do a couple of important things primarily advanced Biden's nominees right? Put his team in place for the Executive Branch also confirmed federal judges potentially Supreme Court Justices for lifetime appointments.

And then there are a couple tools in the Senate toolbox that allow simple majorities to get stuff done through budget rules. They can pare back some of the late Trump regulations but all this requires Democrats picking up those two seats and sticking together with such a, such a slim majority.

KEILAR: And then the other scenario Sarah, of course, is Republicans keep both seats they hold on to a seat. How do you expect that to impact the Biden agenda? BINDER: Well, it really raises a hurdle for Biden and the Democrats to get a legislative agenda through the Senate. It could even put the basic things like putting your cabinet members in place, right? That's going to be difficult when Republicans control the agenda in the Senate which nominees might come up? And when and how long would it take?

I think the bigger issue here is if Republicans keep control are there any issues, right from infrastructure to more funding for vaccine distribution, right? Are there any issues on which Republicans will feel electoral pressure to go to the bargaining table with the Democrats? And if not, the Senate becomes a graveyard for that Biden agenda.

KEILAR: It's a very good point Sarah Binder and I apologize for pronouncing--

BINDER: That's fine.

KEILAR: --your name incorrectly when I first said hello but I really appreciate the conversation. So thank you, Sarah Binder for coming on.

BINDER: Anytime, thanks.

KEILAR: Just into CNN we have learned that Senator Ted Cruz will object to the Electoral College results in a second state tomorrow not just Pennsylvania but Arizona as well.

Plus, there are new details about a meeting inside the Oval Office between the President and Vice President as Trump turns up the heat on Pence to intervene in tomorrow's electoral account even though actually he cannot.

And D.C. businesses are boarding up their windows ahead of the planned protest tomorrow. Hundreds of people have arrived already and the National Guard is being deployed. We'll be there live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

KEILAR: President Trump is increasing the pressure as he tries to upend the lawful election of Joe Biden as President last night while falsely claiming that he won the state of Georgia by a landslide. President Trump tried to turn up the heat on Vice President Mike Pence saying he hopes that Pence "Comes through for him."

He's talking about the vice president presiding over the Electoral College count in Congress tomorrow, which is largely ceremonial and today the president tweeted this, the Vice President has the power to reject fraudulently chosen electors.

Now to be very clear here, no, the vice president does not. He does not have that power and that is according to the Constitution. CNNs Kaitlan Collins is at the White House. We have CNN Congressional Reporter Lauren Fox on the Hill. And Kaitlan the vice president actually arrived at the White House

moments ago which must be some kind of meeting. So what more are you hearing about these conversations that are taking place?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes Brianna, I think we are seeing this point in the President's relationship with someone who has been incredibly loyal to him over the last several years reached this point, this boiling point really where you don't really know what's going to happen or how the president is going to react?

Because what we are told is this has been happening between the two of them over the last several days had been these conversations where the vice president has been explaining what his role was actually going to look like?

And of course as we've noted, he does not have the authority to reject the electors when it comes to that certification tomorrow but there have been advisors who have been telling the president that he does that Pence actually could take a more significant role in this and clearly, as we were saying, from the president's tweet, he is saying something that's not true, saying that Pence does have this authority that he does not.

So you can see which side the president is going with here instead of the vice president? He is going with those advisors including people like Peter Navarro, who have suggested that the vice president does have more to do here than he does.

And it is really this extraordinary split because while we all know what the ultimate outcome of tomorrow is going to be? What we don't know is what the outcome of the president and the vice president's relationship is going to be after this because now the president is taking his private frustration with him public?

Not only would that comment last night at the rally, but also that tweet today. We have never seen the president treat the vice president in this way even though he's gone after other people. He has lost his temper with several other cabinet officials.

We've never seen it happen with the vice president in such a public way as this but ultimately what it is a larger picture is that the president is turning on people who are not feeding into his sense of victimhood here that he has lost this election that he has been wronged by the election process.

[12:20:00]

COLLINS: And you're seeing and taking out on people from Utah Senator Mike Lee like he was last night at the rally for not saying he'll object tomorrow but even to the vice president now, someone who has been incredibly loyal to him for the last several years.

KEILAR: And Lauren, I know that you have some new reporting about how this is all going to go down tomorrow on Capitol Hill? What can you tell us? LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Well, we are now learning that

Senator Ted Cruz of Texas plans to object to the State of Arizona and when he brings that objection, along with a House member that will essentially delay this process even further.

We already knew that Senator Josh Holley would be bringing a challenge to the State of Pennsylvania, but we didn't know how many other Senators would join him in bringing these objections. Remember, every time there is an objection, the joint session of Congress has to pause.

House members have to have a debate up to two hours; Senators have to have a debate up to two hours. Then they each have to vote that takes a substantial amount of times potentially up to four or five hours in the House where they have different voting procedures because of Coronavirus. So we're talking about now at least eight hours, maybe even more of debate over these issues.

So you know that's going to take a lot of time. Now, I am told that Senator Cruz is objecting to the state of Arizona, not because of concerns necessarily about trying to disqualify voters in the State of Arizona but instead because he is frustrated that there hasn't been in any agreement to get that Electoral Commission to study potential voter fraud.

Now, that is something that Cruz and 10 other Republican Senators had been pushing for since Saturday. We still don't know if any other senators might bring more objections but essentially what we're looking at tomorrow, Brianna is a very long day. And I should underscore that this doesn't end in any other way then Joe Biden will be the next president. It just might take a while to get there, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes I mean, ladies, we know what's going to happen but let's hold on to her hats and glasses, because I think it's going to be a wild ride tomorrow. Lauren and Kaitlan thank you so much to both of you.

I want to bring in J.W Verret to talk a little bit more about this. He's an Associate Professor of Law at George Mason University and he also served as an Advisor to President Trump's Transition Team back in 2016.

I know that, you know, you must be watching this with considerable interest. J.W and I want to start with the vice president, let's talk about his role. Let's talk about the power that he does or maybe we should say does not have here.

J.W. VERRET, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF LAW, GEORGE MASON UNIVERSITY: Yes, so let's start with the Constitution that's where this starts and that's where this ends. Constitution, Article II says how the President will be elected?

It says that state legislatures get to decide how electors are chosen, and the legitimacy of the selection of those electors that decision has been made. It was made in December. It was made a month ago. So that's been done that's been completed.

Then there is a largely ceremonial action by the Congress that's provided for in the 12th Amendment and then elaborated in a statute adopted in 18 - in 1870s to elaborate how this would progress? And both of those both the constitutional provisions in the 12th Amendment and the statute, give the vice president an incredibly ceremonial role of opening the results of the election.

Opening the envelopes that have the results of the Electoral College' action and the state certification of what the Electoral College has done? He opens the envelope that's it. And then he also presides over the Congress is the Congress needs to consider this.

He's the presiding officer but that doesn't give him any power to make determinations that only the Congress can count and they don't they - don't even make determinations, they merely count. And he doesn't even do the counting tabulators selected from among the membership are the ones who do the actual counting.

KEILAR: And it's not like if he doesn't open the envelope this does not precede that's an important thing to note. So he's got a decision to make right JW either, does what Trump even though what Trump wants him to do is nonsensical because it doesn't actually stop anything?

This is clearly what the president wants from him. So he has a choice to make. Does he stick to what he has said about the constitution and its importance? Does he stick to his constitutional principles? Or does he and we have seen this be something that's very important to him works very hard to please the president?

And clearly this is someone who has ambitions right beyond being vice president. He's clearly eyeing a potential 2024 run and he has to make a calculation about which one of these things is going to serve him best? So what do you expect him to do?

J.W. VERRET: Well first of all, you're exactly right that the Constitution says he shall count not he shall decide whether to count. He shall count. The Constitution mandates that he can't open up and start the counting and then the tabulators go on and count. So he has no discretion there.

[12:25:00]

J.W. VERRET: And if he were to decide to make some silly decision not to do it I think you would immediately see the Supreme Court compel him to do so but let's set that aside. I don't think that's likely. Here's one reason why?

This morning "POLITICO" reports on some comments from the Chief of Staff to the Vice President Mark Shore, who's one of the most careful operators in Washington and I've known him over the years, he would never make a comment without his boss' OK.

You know what he said Peter Navarro comes out and says, oh, the vice president can do whatever he wants tomorrow. Mark Short, the Vice President's Chief of Staff says Peter Navarro has many things but a constitutional scholar he is not. That I am certain that must have been approved by the vice president that speaks volumes to all of us.

KEILAR: That certainly does. As you highlight that and regardless of what the vice president does the fact is that there are dozens of members of the House and the Senate who will stand up and they will object to a lawful vote count to a democratic process. There is no evidence of widespread fraud that is clear. There's no question of that.

We've even heard that from Trump's Justice Department. What do you make of Senators like Josh Holley and Ted Cruz taking this step?

J.W. VERRET: Well, they should know better. This isn't the first time members of Congress have done this sort of preening. They've usually taken up every opportunity. Some of them take every opportunity they can to do a little printing.

They've done that in 2005, with Senator Barbara Boxer and Democrats did essentially the same thing. It's regrettable now that it's so much, so much the larger contention, but it's still a small minority in total 12 or maybe fewer members hopefully, some of them will drop out.

But it'll just be a series of speeches over a few hours and then final consummation of this ceremonial activity by the Congress. So you know frankly, what I would urge the American vote - people voting, viewing this and voting today in Georgia just ignore this frankly, I would just ignore it. It's hard to ignore everybody.

KEILAR: --I want to ask you, I hear what you're saying, like just ignore it because in the end you know what's going to happen? But doesn't this symbolize something about the state of affairs in Washington of the state of division in the U.S.? I mean, I wonder if we actually ignore it at our own peril because it is a sign of something.

J.W. VERRET: Well, keep in mind, what the objectors want is attention. That is that that's what they're seeking here. I think condemnation is fine but I wouldn't give them more legitimacy than that they deserve. That's what that's what I'm suggesting.

KEILAR: No, that's a very - that is certainly a very good point and I take that point. J.W. thank you it's wonderful to see you.

J.W. VERRET: Thank you.

KEILAR: So next, Florida seniors once again lining up overnight, waiting for hours trying to get a vaccine but the Governor of Florida just gets heated when one of our CNN reporters asked why these screw ups keep happening? And a new breaking point in the COVID surge in California.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're waiting 234 hours minimum used to be a 710 minute drive to a hospital and now we have to drive even further.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: In LA County some ambulances are even being told not to transport people who have little chance of survival.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)