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CNN Live Event/Special
Four Dead after Pro-Trump Rioters Storm Capitol; Senate Votes Down Objection to Pennsylvania Electoral Vote. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired January 07, 2021 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And this kind of -- you know, ugly populism that he embraces and the protectionism and the isolationism -- all this stuff that's just not healthy.
And so again, I don't know the answer and people like Mark and I and others are going to have to figure out a way, you know, to work with our friends, to -- to -- to take the party to a new place that's much better than where we were -- or are.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good luck with that. Going to need a lot of luck and it's going to be a lot of legwork. And to rebuild, really, the -- the -- the political structure of this country.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: I mean, look.
LEMON: Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Top of the hour, by the way, Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo.
CUOMO: Where are we?
It's it 2:00 in the morning on the East Coast. What's happening is the House is going through its part of the certification debate. And even after an attempted coup on the U.S. Capitol, today, there are still over 100 Republicans, willing to back bogus objections to the electoral vote, even though they know this isn't a forum for it, even though they know it's not following the law, even though they know it's a farce, even though they know people just broke into the people's house because of this canard.
They're still doing it. That's what's going on now. The Senate is adjourned for the night. Now in terms of the nature and quality of behavior and consequence that we witnessed today, let's bring in Norm Eisen, former White House ethics czar.
Two things to unpack. One will be the wrong and the other is a potential remedy. The wrong, the word we're hearing now is sedition, sedition. The definition is, "If two or more people in any state or territory or in any place, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow or destroy the government." But then, there is a little bit more, as you go down, that is
applicable here, potentially. Which is, "hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States."
OK. So what would that be?
That would be what we saw today, Norm Eisen.
How strong an argument is that this was sedition?
And if so, who may have exposure?
NORMAN EISEN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Chris, it was sedition. There is a variety of other federal and possibly D.C., state laws, that were -- that were implicated by today's conduct, including the conspiracy laws.
So however things end up being charged, there is a lot of video and a lot of evidence of a plan to violently invade the U.S. Capitol and to interfere with one of the most foundational duties of our republic, counting the electoral votes. People are not going to be let off the hook for that.
Who is on the -- who -- so, who is on it?
Number one, those people who broke in and committed acts of violence. You are going to see a lot of them prosecuted. There are very serious questions about those who helped organize it.
You have Rudy Giuliani, calling for a trial by combat. You have the president, himself, tweeting, beforehand, that it will be wild and then encouraging this action in his speech, whipping up the protesters.
There is no question, we saw yet another impeachable act today on the part of the president, a high crime and misdemeanor. I don't think there's going to be time for him, actually, to be impeached.
But this may add to the degree of culpability. I still think the Georgia call is the most likely thing that he's done, recently, that's going to send him to jail.
CUOMO: We're hearing about the 25th Amendment. I am a seller on this proposition. I don't think it was intended, Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, for this kind of situation, because I don't think you have proof of incapacity. You just have proof that he sucks at the job, which is not what it was meant for.
But do you think that there's any universe of will, on the part of people who are in his cabinet, to go against him?
EISEN: You know, Chris, they've been such enablers for years. And so, I have to wonder. Under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, you would need to have Mike Pence and a majority of the cabinet who would submit to Congress that the president has incapacity.
The president would, immediately, write and say, I'm the only sane one around here.
(CROSSTALK)
EISEN: And then, there would be four days -- then, there would be four days for the -- four days for -- up to four days for Pence and the majority of the cabinet to write back and say, no, he's nuts.
[02:05:00]
EISEN: And then, Congress would have to decide. They would need to convene, within 24 hours. They'd have three weeks to decide. And they could stall it, a little bit, Chris, to, you know, run out the clock before the guy takes power again.
I do believe that he suffers from a malignant narcissistic pathology. He is a sociopath. So I do think there is a mental incapacity there.
But is the political will present in his own cabinet?
We've seen one lower-level resignation today. I think that resignation is bad for another reason. I was listening to the panel. The guy is bailing out of a sinking ship. Let him stay there, in case something crazy happens and -- and try to keep us on the rails.
CUOMO: Yes. That's a fair point.
EISEN: So I am disappointed --
CUOMO: Most of the guys -- most of the guys who leave and then come on my show, I say why weren't you saying this then?
They say because I needed to be there. And I knew if I said anything like this when I was there, he would have gotten sideways with me, would have kicked me out. And it was too much important work to do at the time. Maybe, that's the same thing with Pottinger, that he felt he had to stay there, until now.
Norm Eisen, you are a gift, especially to do this, at this time. Thank you, brother, for the -- for the intelligence, as always.
EISEN: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: All right. Let's go to CNN's Phil Mattingly for a state-of- play check on Capitol Hill.
What do you have?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN U.S. CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are in the last vestiges, I guess you could say, of the debate on the House floor about the objection to the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Look, we know how this is going to end.
When it came to the objection to Arizona, 121 Republicans voted in favor of that objection. That was nowhere near what they needed. And it didn't matter, anyway, because the Senate summarily dismissed the Arizona objection as well. The Senate did the same thing with Pennsylvania.
So what you are watching right now on the House floor and what we are waiting for is lawmakers, Republican and Democrat, going back and forth. Each gets five minutes and, once they are done, they will vote.
The vote will fail. The joint session would technically reconvene and then they will finish counting the final 12 states.
The endgame here is the same guys, as it has been since November 7th, Joe Biden will be President-Elect of the United States; Joe Biden will be inaugurated on January 20th. How we got from there to here, well, it's been a mess. And obviously, today was no exception.
Perhaps, it was kind of the peak of the mess, based on what we saw, based on what transpired inside the Capitol building, based on what a lot of these lawmakers dealt with. Some of them, being escorted into discreet locations. They weren't allowed to talk about, surrounded, surrounded by law enforcement, in tactical gear with long guns.
The senators had to be escorted back to the Senate chamber with law enforcement just to continue. Chris, it's something, in my 13 years up here, I couldn't even fathom ever happening. And yet, that's what happened in the middle of a very historic moment.
But once this debate concludes, once this vote occurs, the certification of Joe Biden's electors, it will be done in Congress. It will be done rather quickly -- I think 15, 20 minutes once they reconvene. Next stop will be January 20th. Next stop will be inauguration.
The biggest question, right now, frankly, based on everybody that I am talking to, what's going on with the Republican Party, particularly given the man who is in the Oval Office right now?
There have been several Republicans who have made very clear, they are very concerned about what's going to happen over the course of the next 14 days. Donald Trump is still in office, obviously.
And what's going to happen, beyond that?
What does the party look like?
Senator John Thune making clear, this has been a party that's been about one man for the better part of the last five years.
How does the party move on from that?
Senator John Cornyn saying, this, today, was rock bottom.
How does the party move on from that?
I think there's one question, which is, how is this any different than a lot of things we have seen over the last four years?
But those are all things that are playing out and we are going to see them play out in major, major focus over the next two weeks. CUOMO: Yes, I mean, rock bottom. There hasn't even been an
accounting, yet, of what happened on their watch and what they allowed. You mentioned Senator Thune. All these guys, who are quiet, you know, ignoring it, is empowering it. They are going to come up now and want a fresh start.
They are not going to get one. They are going to be problems. They're going to have to forum shop for a long time in terms of how they media-expose themselves.
Phil, thank you very much, brother, let us know if there's a change in the state of play. I will come right back to you.
Let's discuss the implications going forward. We have Nia-Malika Henderson, Mark Preston and Ron Brownstein.
It's going to see all three of you, especially at this time. Thank you very much.
Nia-Malika Henderson, this idea of an autopsy by the Republican Party, I don't get it. I mean, the U.S. Capitol is invaded by crazed Trumpers today and you still vote to accept an objection that has no merit, no basis and is exactly what fomented what happened today.
How is that any proof of, you know, getting religion on the wrongs?
NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You know, it's unclear how this party moves forward, if it moves forward.
[02:10:00]
HENDERSON: If it even wants to move forward without Trump because you still have those folks in the party, who are still devoted to him. We saw that, obviously, play out, mostly in the House, a bit in the Senate.
Particularly, for those ambitious folks, like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz, who think, somehow, they are going to run for president in 2024, stave off a primary challenge, going forward.
I think, Rick Scott, also, was -- was in that group as well. And he, of course, is also an ambitious person, who might want to run for president.
You know, the Republican Party saw this coming. They wanted what they could get from Donald Trump, which was, you know, reforming the judiciary in their image, in a conservative image. Obviously, the most important being what happened with the Supreme Court.
And they were willing to take the terrible downsides of Donald Trump. We, obviously, saw that today. What
Donald Trump does, moving forward, you know, there, obviously, is a very tight circle, almost like a cult, you know, a membership of people, who just see Donald Trump as their leader, almost like a messianic figure. And whether he takes that group and still tries to influence the Republican Party is unclear.
Or is there something else he does?
And to my mind, the "something else" could be, actually, much more dangerous because what we saw today was, certainly, dangerous. Four people died.
You know, I woke up this morning, knowing that this was coming. And I was texting somebody. I was like, someone is going to get killed. And that's exactly what happened. And we all saw this coming.
And Republicans just wanted to be hand in hand with Donald Trump, because it kept them in power and it kept them, you know, passing some of the judges and any sort of initiatives they wanted to pass while they were in -- in power.
CUOMO: Well, I tell you who didn't see it coming was whoever organized the security around the Capitol today because it was woeful.
Mark Preston, the word about resignations: Stephanie Grisham, chief of staff for the first lady, she had bounced over to the coms office for a while then back. And Matt Pottinger, of course and then, Anna Christina Niceta, leaving.
Where do you put this?
Better late than never?
Or, no, you might as well stay now, just in case something else bad happens?
What is the net effect?
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Look. If I was in one of their situations, I would have done the same thing. I mean, to -- to get out now, I guess, while you can. But the fact of the matter is everyone has been saying tonight, it's too late.
You -- you already have the mark on your back. You -- you were complicit in -- in the last four years. And to get out now, because of what we've seen, it just seems a little bit too political expedient for them.
But again, I would have done the same thing. But you know, Nia-Malika just said something right there -- and I think it's important as we go by the numbers. You know, we talk about democracy really under siege today and whatnot.
We had four people that died today. Four people died. They have families. They have mothers, fathers, they have daughters, they have sons. Who knows who they have. They have friends. But they don't have a life anymore.
And that is because of Donald Trump. This would have not happened, had Donald Trump not incited this. This would have not happened -- we would have not have seen our police officers -- and mind you, the Republican Party has had such a grip, right, they have had such a grip on law enforcement.
But what we saw today, where they were attacking police officers, who were just simply trying to defend the building. And to note, you know, the party of fiscal responsibility, 22 police and federal agencies had to defend the Capitol today.
CUOMO: All right, Mark. Let's hold it for a second.
Ron, I will come to you in a second.
This is Adam Kinzinger. One of the few Republicans in the House, who have spoken out against this president, speaking now.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): And we talk about their service with tears in our eyes.
Shouldn't we be willing to give up our jobs to uphold that Constitution?
With that, I yield my remaining time to Representative Herrera Beutler from Washington.
(APPLAUSE)
REP. HERRERA BEUTLER (R-WA): Thank you, Madam Chair.
You know, is this a country, is this an America that we want to give to our children, a country of lawlessness, of might makes right, of mob rule?
Previous generations of Americans have laid down their lives to answer no to that question. I do not want to be the first generation of Americans so selfish as to answer yes.
Nothing is more important to me than preserving the -- this -- this Constitutional republic, as a representative. Article II of the Constitution states, "Each state shall appoint, in such manner."
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: I know. I tried to get to Kinzinger. I tried to get him some love. We will find another chance.
[02:15:00]
CUOMO: And look. It is an important aspect of this. Let's come back to the panel and Ron Brownstein.
We're going to have to reward people who do the right thing. There is going to have to be an accounting here. You don't get to get away with this. You don't get to have ignored what Trump was about all along, because you were getting goodies or judges or whatever it was.
This guy went way beyond the pale of any kind of partisan acceptance.
So Ron, you have been making an interesting argument for a long time, which is, the Republican Party is playing a losing game, a game of attrition, based on the demographics in this country. They say, no, it's still 70 percent white and white-Hispanic. We're betting on the big part of the pie.
What do you say, now?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look. I think what's happening is very clear, is that the fear of demographic eclipse is eroding the commitment to democracy in the Republican Party, both among leaders and among the rank and file.
Under Donald Trump, the Republican Party has grown, not only him personally but virtually all Republicans running for office have grown more dependent on the voters who are the most uneasy with the way the country is changing, demographically, culturally and economically.
And what they are feeding them is a constant Flight 93 argument, as it's called. Look at that last rally in Georgia on Monday night, Donald Trump, Kelly Loeffler, David Perdue told that audience, virtually all white in rural Georgia, that if Democrats win two Senate seats in Georgia, we will lose America.
America, as we have known it, as you have known it, i.e., white Christian America will cease to exist. And if you are telling people that each election carries that kind of apocalyptic consequence, it is not shocking to see more and more Republicans expressing sympathy in polls.
And then, today, in their actions for anti-democratic measures, to prevent a Democratic victory, that they are being told will end the America as they have known it.
And I -- the reason why I think it is overly optimistic to assume that all of this goes away when Trump does is because, what we saw just in Georgia, last night, which is that, even two buttoned-down, former corporate executive, multi-millionaire candidates, David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler, were routed in the suburbs.
And the only way they were possibly able to win was by ginning up that kind of super white-hot turnout in rural areas with those kinds of arguments of cultural eclipse.
Donald Trump, on Monday night, he said the Democratic Party was a Communist Party. I mean, his -- his -- his -- you know, his mentor, Roy Cohn, somewhere, was smiling.
And that is the level, I think, of kind of hyperbole and extremism that Republicans are becoming addicted to throughout the party. So if there is going to be a turn away from Trumpism going forward, you are going to have to find a way to change the party coalition.
Because right now, the reason I believe Trump is so powerful in the party is because he has hooked the entire party on the same drug as him, which is these incredible levels of turnout among non-college, non-urban, evangelical white voters, who are the most uneasy and the most angered, as you saw today, by what America is becoming. CUOMO: So Nia-Malika, now you have the kind of reverse argument.
So what are the Democrats to do here?
Bakari Sellers took exception to a point that I made. And I understand why. I'm not saying Democrats have to find a way to work with the people who bumrushed the Capitol today. Let's be clear. Not all Trumpers are bigots.
But all bigots are Trumpers. So there definitely is a fractional argument there of people who are just too toxic.
But where is the opportunity for Democrats to reach out to a lot of these people that used to be Democrats?
HENDERSON: Well, listen, I mean, Biden did a little better than the average Democrat normally would among those groups of folks. That is why people wanted, Democrats wanted Biden to be the nominee because they felt like he could do a little better with those working-class white voters.
And he talks about bipartisanship. He talks about his relationship with Mitch McConnell. He served, I think, with 13 of the senators who are in -- in Congress now. So I imagine there is a group of Republicans in the Senate, people like Mitt Romney, people like Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, where you could forge some sort of bipartisanship.
But I think, just culturally, for this moment in America, it's at a very dangerous point, for all of the reasons that Ron Brownstein laid out. There is, clearly, some sort of overlap between white nationalists and Trump supporters.
And what does that mean for Biden?
What does that mean for the DOJ?
What does that mean for the DHS?
In going after those folks, because, it isn't -- it isn't tamping down -- you know, I think, Donald Trump, in some ways, coddled these white nationalists. They saw him as a fellow traveler. And Obama was, in some ways, hamstrung and didn't go after them, either.
[02:20:00]
HENDERSON: So I think that is going to have to be top of mind for this administration, because this is a real threat to the safety and security of the citizenry here in America.
CUOMO: I got to take a break but you are right. And my thread on social media is proof of it. I used to be dogged by that frog. And now, it's Confederate flags coming at me, full fist, all the time. And those are his people.
Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll tell you what's happening on what should have been a day of solidifying, of showing consensus about what the democracy has wrought. It has been anything but. We'll be right back.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): -- a free or fair election --
LEMON: We have to keep in mind, the proceedings are still going on.
To Adam Schiff, now, on the floor of Congress.
SCHIFF: -- the voters can no longer decide who shall be president. The Congress must decide for them.
At a time, when our nation faces an unprecedented health crisis, with thousands dying every day, with Americans struggling to put food on the table and keep a roof over their head, who are we to say that the man America chose to lead us out of this calamity shall not take office?
The coronavirus will claim more American lives than all of the casualties in World War II. To meet that moment will require unity, not discord; will require an abiding faith in our country, in our democracy, in our government's ability to function and provide for the needs of its citizens.
The members of this body cannot continue to challenge the merits of an election that was fairly conducted and overwhelmingly won by Joe Biden. It must stop. Look at the damage that was wrought, in this house today, to this country today.
Is that not enough?
Roosevelt said this nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of millions of free men and women. Our strength, he concluded, is our unity of purpose. Let us unite, once again, in defense of the greatest hope of freedom-loving people around the world, this precious democracy.
I yield to Jamie Raskin.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD.): Madam Speaker, the baseless attack on Pennsylvania and its electors brought to mind, for me, the great Tom Paine, the champion of popular democracy, who came over to America, to fight with us in the revolution against the king.
[02:25:00]
RASKIN: And he lived in Philadelphia, where he wrote, "Common Sense in the Age of Reason." And Paine said, in the monarchies, the king is the law. But in the democracies, the law will be king.
When you think about it, the peaceful transfer of power is the central condition of maintaining democracy under the rule of law. That's why the famous election of 1801 was such a big deal.
When John Adams relinquished the presidency to his passionate adversary and lifelong friend, Thomas Jefferson, it was the first peaceful transition of power between democracies in a democratic republic in the history of the world.
And he said, as he wrote back to Massachusetts from Washington, Adams said that he did this because we are a government of laws and not of men.
We will betray this principle if we trade a government of laws for a government of men or, even worse, a single man or an impressionable and dangerous mob, intent on violent sedition and insurrection against our beloved democratic republic.
Here is Abraham Lincoln, right before the war.
At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected?
I answer, if it ever reaches us, it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and its finisher.
Madam Speaker, my family suffered an unspeakable trauma on New Year's Eve a week ago. But mine was not the only family to suffer such terrible pain in 2020. Hundreds of thousands of families in America are still mourning their family members.
Many families represented in the Congress are still mourning their family members who have been taken away from us by COVID-19, by the opioid crisis, by cancer, by gun violence, by the rising fatalities associated with the crisis in mental and emotional health.
Enough, my beloved colleagues. It is time for America to heal. It is time for our families and communities to come together. Let us stop pouring salt in the wounds of America for no reason at all. Let us start healing our beloved land and our wonderful people.
I yield back.
(APPLAUSE)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): (INAUDIBLE).
All time for debate has expired. The question shall -- the objection submitted by the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Perry, and the senator from Missouri, Mr. Hawley, be agreed to.
Those in favor, say aye; those opposed, say no.
The nos have it.
The gentleman's recognized.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd like a recorded vote.
PELOSI: Gentleman -- the gentleman -- the yeas and nays were requested pursuant to Section 3(f) of the House Resolution 8. The yeas and nays are ordered. Members will record their vote by electronic device and are reminded to vote when their group is called and to leave the chamber after they have voted.
LEMON: All right. So as they vote, we will talk. We'll keep an eye on the vote. And we'll -- Chris and I are here and we are going to bring in some historians to help us through that.
Presidential historians, obviously, Timothy Naftali and Douglas Brinkley.
Gentlemen, good evening to you.
Douglas, we were just discussing, as we were watching Jamie Raskin and Adam Schiff speak there, in 2017, Joe Biden, it took him 36 minutes to certify the Electoral College win for Donald Trump.
Here we are, deep into the next day, pretty much, deep into the evening in some parts of the country and early into the next day. And we still haven't certified. And we've had an insurrection and -- and an attempted coup happen this time.
What the hell is going on?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Man, I'll tell you. It's like, you know, C-SPAN meets reality TV meets other horror show. I mean, it is -- and it's all -- I mean, history will remember January 6th, 2021, as just one of these really grim days.
[02:30:00]
We've -- I -- I've just been startled, Don, about what's happened to our country right now. But I am also hopeful. The fact of the matter is Joe Biden did win. He will get inaugurated. Fact of the matter is, Georgia just ran a free and fair election and we've got two new Democratic senators, as you have been pointing out; an African American and a Jewish-American coming.
And you are going to have Democrats in control of Congress, of the White House. And Mitch McConnell, in recent weeks, has shown that he is willing not to buy into Trumperism (sic). We saw Lindsey Graham, today, make quite an impassioned turnaround.
So maybe, there is hope down the line that we can at least start functioning again. But I never thought, in my lifetime, I'd see Washington, D.C., at this dysfunctional state, where bad politics has turned bloody on our nation's streets.
LEMON: Timothy, I want to get your response to all of it.
But will -- will January 6th, 2021, define the Trump legacy? Is this the end of the Trump era?
TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, it should. In many ways, it's the culmination of Trumpism. President Trump has been threatening to use absolutely every lever at his disposal to overturn the election.
He couldn't get it done through the state recording or administrative systems. He couldn't get it done through the courts. He couldn't get the Supreme Court to do what he needed, to do his bidding. And so, ultimately, he went to the street.
And today, he called on the street. He called on a mob. And for a couple of hours, we had a mobocracy. We had a mob that was actually controlling our Capitol.
So in many ways, this is a culmination of -- of everything that Donald Trump has been trying to do since the November election. So I believe it'll be his legacy. That and, of course, all the unnecessary deaths caused by COVID and the complete collapse of our federal approach to this public health crisis. Those two, alone, should be his legacy.
LEMON: I've got to -- Douglas, listen.
And, folks, if you look at your screen, there is a small one right in front of me. But right now, we have 58 House Republicans, who are voting against the Pennsylvania vote for Joe Biden to be certified.
Even after, Douglas, everything that happened today, an attempted coup, riots in the Capitol, domestic terrorists storming into the nation's Capitol and, then, you have the majority of Republicans, at least right now, voting against Joe Biden's electoral win.
BRINKLEY: They're going to be seen in very ugly terms in history, just the way people that joined the Confederacy and we're taking down Confederate monuments and renaming military bases now. We're not allowing Confederates to be named anymore.
Just like people who associated with Joe McCarthy, if they didn't come clean quickly have a stigma with it. Just like people that were henchmen for Richard Nixon pay a huge price.
This insurrection seven, the seven U.S. Senators, particularly Hawley and Cruz, that -- that as you guys have been saying, no better. They're -- they're intellectuals that -- that really should -- they do know what they're doing and are willing to sell the country down river. They are not going to look well in history.
Something will happen here. But Donald Trump, now, has no -- if he tries to pardon himself, it's not going to hold up. And where he's going to have the whole fist of the United States government, along with states like Georgia, companies, you know, voting machine companies going after him, the Southern District in New York.
Donald Trump, very well, may, also, become the first president that goes to prison because the amount of nefarious activity that he's overseen and the disunity he sowed in our country.
The very fact that we have a president that has to be banned from Facebook or banned from Twitter now, it -- it just tells you that this is a big moment in American history. It's a low, low ebb, only matched by when Lincoln won, perhaps in 1860 and, you know, you started having the unspooling of what became the Civil War.
LEMON: Listen, we are here, Timothy, in this late hour, at this late hour, because of what happened at the Capitol today, because it was delayed. I'm not sure if you saw the president's speech before that, encouraging people to this violence, into this violence.
Norm Eisen was just on speaking with Chris, saying that this was sedition.
Do you agree with that?
NAFTALI: I -- I want to add something. I will respond to that.
But I want -- I want to add a cautionary note to what Doug just said. I am worried that the consensus view that Doug has been discussing, about how history will not look kindly on this and that.
[02:35:00]
That I'm not convinced that the perpetrators of today's insurrection and their allies, in the Congress, are going to bear the brunt of the consequences of what they did.
I am worried that our political climate is so different from that after Watergate, that lessons will not be learned and that costs will -- will not be paid the way they were after Watergate.
It's going to take a real shift in the way in which Republicans deal and talk about Trump for us to be able to develop a national consensus that will help the healing.
I believe the president incited insurrection today. There is no doubt in my mind. And if I had any doubt, it evaporated when I saw his tweet, his first tweet, when he was saying to people, "Be peaceful," but he didn't say leave the Capitol.
So he was saying to them, at least between the lines, disrupt, continue to disrupt the joint session.
(CROSSTALK)
NAFTALI: Do it peacefully but disrupt.
And that is insurrection. So I am convinced that, if we had a really strong and united Congress, they could proceed not on to -- to another impeachment but they could put pressure on the vice president to consider the 25th Amendment.
I -- I really believe that this is a testing moment for our elected officials. And I don't think there are enough profiles in courage to force Donald Trump to pay the price that he should pay as a result of his actions, not just today but since the election itself.
LEMON: That would be a tall order, in 13 or 14 days.
But the one thing is if they do impeach him, again, I don't think he can run again, am I correct with that?
NAFTALI: That's the reason you do it. Then he cannot run again.
LEMON: Go ahead, Douglas.
BRINKLEY: Well, the -- the point about the 25th Amendment, right now, is it's a contingency plan. We all know -- and I have heard Chris Cuomo been saying this, this whole evening -- there's no way. There's no way. Agreed.
But there still has to be a con contingency plan in two weeks. We have somebody in the White House for two more weeks. We don't know what Trump will do tomorrow. So at least, there has to be something that's ready to at least move.
Otherwise, we're really being held hostage by President Trump for two weeks. And he may not want to leave. And they're going to have to become a lot of plans to get rid of him.
LEMON: Listen. I think -- and the way to do that, if you want to put this fire out, maybe impeachment is it and you do it in expedited manner and then he can't run again and he's done.
Gentlemen, thank very much. I appreciate it.
We are watching Congress. You see it there or you saw it there on your screen. We are watching them do their job right now, in the middle of the night, voting on the objection to the Pennsylvania electoral vote, the last objection vote, all just hours after this vicious assault on democracy and on our Capitol. Don't go anywhere.
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CUOMO: All right. We are watching the House vote on the objection to the Pennsylvania electoral vote. I have to say, every time, this is not the forum for adjudication of any type of issues in states. The states handle that.
The people who are objecting know that. And to pick Pennsylvania is grotesque proof of the same. The legislature there made the law. It was reviewed, within the court system there. It was then reviewed within the federal court system. It then went to the Supreme Court. There is no substantial basis for this. And yet, here we are.
Joe Lockhart is with me right now. Good to have you. I have not been getting a lot of love with a
particular line of questioning tonight. And we will see if I do better with you, Joe, which is, absolutely, the Republicans have a huge problem on their hands, the ReTrumplicans, as I call them.
Where do they go from here?
What will the accounting look like?
But then, you have the Democrats. And this isn't both sides-ism.
It's, is there opportunity in this?
And that's on two levels.
One, do you work with Trumpers?
How do you deal with progress from here, when he is gone?
And is there an opportunity to absorb part of his base?
JOE LOCKHART, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE SECRETARY: Well, I think, first and foremost, what Democrats have to do -- and they have to do quickly -- is make sure that there are consequences here. I think the biggest risk to Democrats, Republicans, to everyone, is that we sweep this under the carpet and we go onto the next thing, you know, be it the next thing from Trump, the Biden inauguration.
I do think, though, that -- that Joe Biden is going to make his presidency about healing and bringing people back together. Republicans have a choice. They have a choice to go along with Democrats, with moderate Republicans or to stick with Trump.
The early signs are they are going to stick with Trump. I have to disagree with what a lot of people have said all night, that this is the end of Trumpism. Everything that happened today -- you saw the majority of Republicans in the House stick with Trump.
You saw senators go to the floor, one after another, criticizing the protesters and the domestic terrorists but not mentioning Donald Trump's name and not connecting those.
So the Republicans have a choice. But, Chris, you are right. Democrats have a choice, too, and they are going to have to do both. They are going to have to hold the president's feet to the fire, make sure there are consequences for this action but also be willing to work to get things done.
You know, they've got -- you know, we have a national crisis right now with COVID-19. That's an area where we can work together to actually solve a problem that science has given us the opportunity to do.
CUOMO: Hasn't happened, yet. But maybe.
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LOCKHART: There is challenges for both.
CUOMO: Maybe, with the iron chief gone, it will be easier for Republicans to accept what is obvious.
Over on the other side of the screen, we have proof of what you are saying, which is that, even after today and an insurrection, you still have 113 and counting Republicans deciding to go along with a fraud. So there is your proof. So that then leaves your first proposition, which is consequences.
What would that look like?
LOCKHART: Well, I think -- I think the -- the Democrats, at least, have to do something before the president leaves.
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It's very hard to see them doing impeachment although they could pass articles tomorrow. But I think -- you know, I think the idea of censuring the president for what he's done, you know, even if just in the last week, from the Georgia secretary of state phone call to the events of today and putting on record and making people vote, is -- is a symbolic way of holding consequences.
On the flip side, using every lever of our government to bring -- to investigate and bring to justice those who invaded the Capitol, today, find them, prosecute them and put them in jail for a very long time.
Otherwise, this has no meaning. This will just happen, again, because, you know, politicians understand weakness and understand how to take advantage of it. And if there are no consequences here for the people who perpetrated this, we are going to see this again and again.
CUOMO: I am a fan of the prosecution play because it is a great, even playing field to see and expose what ReTrumplicans will want to do in terms of returning to true law and order.
If they are not in favor of prosecuting people that created federal felonies today, which is what breaking into the Capitol is -- hasn't happened since 1812, we haven't seen somebody go into that place, broadside, since the English -- that will be a very interesting, even playing field to show who is about law and order, who isn't.
Thank you, Joe, especially this time of night. Best for the New Year. We are off to a rough start.
Democracy is unfolding right now --
LOCKHART: Same to you, Chris.
CUOMO: -- as we near 3:00 am Eastern time. Congress is voting on the objection to the Pennsylvania Electoral College vote. Nobody has offered good reason to do so, except polls that show people believe that there is a problem with the vote.
And they believe that, because they've been told that by the same people who are voting now. And they say they have to vote that way because of the polls.
Crazy land. And that's where we are. Today was our reality. That's where we are. We'll keep following the vote. Stay with CNN.
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CUOMO: CNN's Phil Mattingly is on Capitol Hill. We are watching what was supposed to be quickly dispensed with history and now we are into half a day, thanks in part to an insurrection.
How goes the count, Phil?
MATTINGLY: It's going, it's going. I think that's at least a positive movement towards finalizing this process.
Look, you guys talked about it earlier, Chris. In past congressional joint sessions, where they count the electors, it goes between 25 and 45 minutes in total to finish the entire process.
We've been doing this since 1:00 pm and obviously, we had a several hour interruption. When you talk about that insurrection, the Capitol being overrun, they're not protesters. They were domestic terrorists. They were rioters.
And that obviously stalled out this process. The end game was always going to be the same. Joe Biden would be named the President-Elect of the United States. That would be certified by counting these votes.
What you're watching right now on the screen is the vote count between Republicans and Democrats, between those who object, all Republicans -- the only people that are objecting are Republicans; not all Republicans in total are objecting -- and Democrats.
The end game for this particular vote is once again the objectors will lose their fight. They lost in Arizona. They lost in both the Senate and the House. They will now lose in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. They've already lost in the Senate. They are about to lose in the House and that will bring an end to the objections.
That will bring an end to any of the drama, which was largely sucked out of this process a while ago, and the rest of the night will go a little bit like this.
One, it will be fast. It will be more traditional. They will finish the last 12 states. Vice president Mike Pence will open the states, count the electors and it will be over. That will be it. And that will push its way toward January 20th, where Joe Biden and Kamala Harris will be inaugurated as President and Vice President of the United States. One of the key things I'm watching on this vote, not unlike Arizona,
in the Senate and in the House, how many Republicans are still willing to vote for these objections in the wake of what we saw today?
They were willing to do it in the first place, which I think raised a lot of questions, given the specious arguments made, given the lack of facts, given the arguments and the strategies they were laying out.
But after what happened today, when you move over to what happened on the Senate side of the Capitol, there was a shift from a lot of Republicans. Republicans who said they were going to object, who looked at what happened today and said, flatly, this is ugly, this needs to end now --
CUOMO: In the Senate.
MATTINGLY: -- I'm rescinding my objection -- in the United States Senate.
CUOMO: Right, but you got 133 and counting. You have more than you did with Arizona, even post insurrection in the state of Pennsylvania, where they know there is no legitimate basis and they know they're not even a legitimate forum.
So therefore they are making a determination to act in a way that foments exactly what happened today.
MATTINGLY: They are making a -- look. You can split this up a little bit, right. There are those who are doing this for political expediency. They are those who are doing this because they believe Donald Trump will be the head of their party from now until eternity and therefore they need to curry favor in whichever way possible they can, just as they've done over the course of the last four or five years.
There are those who truly believe that this election was rigged and that Donald Trump won by hundreds of thousands of votes.
There is no evidence to back that up. They don't present any evidence to back that up, unless you talk about voting conspiracies, voting machines and things you saw on 4chan and 8chan and other whatever chat room they're in.
So that group exists. But there are a number of Republicans in the group that believe, from a political perspective, that this is something that they not only want to do but it's something that they should do.
I think the real question coming out of these votes -- and I think this is an important point. This is what I picked up when talking to these Republican senators, who changed their mind about objections today.
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Obviously people were shaken by what happened to them in the Capitol, by what they saw, by sitting in the chambers as these individuals were banging on the doors, trying to get. In
You heard gunshots. You heard the idea that pipe bombs were near the Capitol complex as well. But there was also moments -- and you could see it in the speeches on the Senate floor as well -- where people understood -- and it shouldn't have taken this long -- but this moment in history. And people are going to look back at these votes.
People are going to remember who pursued these objections. People are going to remember who voted for these objections. People are going to write in obituaries in the first or second paragraph of those obituaries how they voted on these issues. People are cognizant of that today.
And that is why I think this vote matters. That is why people are paying attention to that vote. And that is why 130-plus Republicans in the House still willing to vote to object is significant and underscores Donald Trump's role in the Republican Party.
CUOMO: Phil Mattingly, thank you very much.
We are watching it in real time. On the day the Capitol was attacked, the White House is in absolute turmoil.
Where will it take us?
This is what happened after. And by the way, we got lucky today in terms of what happened in that Capitol building. It could have been so much worse. Stay with CNN.
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