Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Iowa Voters Question Nikki Haley In Town Hall; Haley Breaks With Trump & DeSantis On Ukraine; Nikki Haley Calls For "New Generational Leader". Aired 9:30-11p ET

Aired June 04, 2023 - 21:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Iowa voters and Jake Tapper on abortion, guns, Ukraine, China, her former boss, Donald Trump, Ron DeSantis versus Disney, and the GOP issue this election cycle so-called wokeism.

We're going to talk about all of that after we discuss one specific thing which is abortion. That seems to be just in talking to Republicans as they've been watching this. Maybe the biggest headline when it comes to this race for the nomination.

She declined to say where she stands on a new law in her home state of South Carolina and beyond. She did differentiate herself from Donald Trump and DeSantis on the issue of Ukraine, and how to deal with Russia. We want to talk about all of this with Abby Phillip and Audie Cornish who are here now.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BASH: Abby, what's your takeaway?

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I think that what you're raising about abortion really speaks to something that I could not ignore, which is that this was a Republican audience, is in the state of Iowa, about the Republican caucuses, but she was speaking to a national audience. S

he was really trying to present herself, I think, very differently from many of her other colleagues who are in this race, but she was also trying to leave herself a lot of room on some issues like abortion.

I thought it was so striking to me just the tonal difference here. This was almost like a Republican candidate circa the George W. Bush era, incredibly hawkish on foreign policy, serious and very substantive on a number of other issues, whether it's on entitlements and government spending, or even things like guns and the border and China.

But I was keeping track, took her 70 minutes to say the word woke after she was asked a question about it. I thought that was notable, too. I think she did not steer the conversation into the territory of things that would get you retweets and likes on social media and that was a choice.

But when she did get to it, she really went for it on those issues of so called wokeism. There's a lot to say about that, but those are the things that really struck me.

BASH: Yes. And there was a moment on that issue where she said she was talking about her trying to personalize it saying that her daughter was -- ran track in school and she couldn't imagine what it would be like for her to be in a locker room with somebody who was born a man and then question whether or not that has an impact on teenage suicide among girls. And then Jake, you know, pushed back on the other side of that, which is that there's also a high rate of suicide about -- among trans.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Also a wild thing to say because she had spent much of the conversation, also talking about mental health and mental health statistics. And I think tying those things together the way she did was probably an error, frankly.

It was interesting that on the issue of wokeness or culture war issues, she picked very specific lanes. One was this idea of kind of trans exclusionary talk, meaning, the gender identity of trans youth illegitimate in her eyes. She repeatedly called young people biological boys, et cetera. So she had a very specific thing she wanted to talk about.

And she also went after DeSantis in the most specific way in terms of line of attack, not just talking about what's going on with Disney now, but his past relationship with Disney, and kind of how he's playing it out as an executive. It was one of the few times she sort of poked at someone else who might be running.

PHILLIP: And I noted that she said she -- we've gone down that road before kind of hitting him for his confrontational tone with Disney. And it was sort of like a sub tweet at Donald Trump basically implying --

CORNISH: Right. She called them vendettas.

PHILLIP: -- implying Trump without actually saying.

BASH: I want to go back to abortion, because this is something that an issue that tripped up Republicans in the 2022 midterms. And this is an issue that Republican strategists are trying to -- and activists are trying to work with candidates on, to try to find the right language, never mind the right policy positions. And she punt it and she said, I'm punting basically.

PHILLIP: And that's not going to fly with evangelical Christians. And with the anti-abortion movement, which is very powerful still in the Republican Party. They've been pretty clear. They want candidates who are on that stage who were running for president on the Republican side to say how many weeks they are willing to support an abortion ban. She refused to say that. She said there was a federal role, but she made the point and she's probably right about this.

There are not 60 votes for federal bans at probably six weeks. But, you know, Jake rightfully pressed her and said, you're a candidate, you're running for president. What is your position? Where do you stand? She still wouldn't go there. And that is going to be an issue for her in this primary because these

-- first of all, evangelical voters are a huge chunk of the Republican Party right now. And they're -- the leaders of these groups are really pushing for a number. They want to hear a commitment and she did give it back.

[21:35:02]

BASH: One thing -- that's all true, and there's so many policy questions and answers to dissect on a whole host of issues. But one thing that really struck me was how folksy she was, and how personal she got, when she answered a lot of these issues, when she answered about abortion, saying, I'm pro-life. And for many reasons, one of them was that I had trouble getting pregnant.

And she talked about other issues whether it was -- and I know she's talked about this before, but on the stage, whether it was what happened in South Carolina and the flag and her personal experience, being at that farm stand when her father was discriminated against.

CORNISH: Right.

BASH: There were a lot of points throughout this town hall where she brought that humanity and that's no small thing.

CORNISH: And she's very effective at using her personal biography to make specific points, but it also allows her to dodge certain issues and questions. So you hear why her sort of thinking -- you hear her thinking through being a candidate who is against abortion, but then what slides right under that is an attack against the Biden administration unfairly claiming that their stances abortion up until birth, when we know that the president has said that they basically support the codification of Roe v. Wade, which does allow for abortion restrictions, but you can't attack someone on their personal biography, right?

It's the same thing where she can talk extensively about the effects of racism in her life, but always ends by essentially saying it's not systemic that this is just something I went through, and everything is fine now because America is a great country.

So I think that there's this kind of one-two punch, which is like, here's this part of my biography that some middle of the road voters will really kind of find appealing. And then here's the more hardline policy that comes along with that.

PHILLIP: And, you know, it remains notable that every time she talks about the Mother Emanuel shooting in Charleston, she kind of avoids talking about race, when that shooting was carried out by a white --

CORNISH: Or guns, right? The policy she said tonight was ending gun- free zones, right? That means around schools, et cetera.

BASH: One thing that I believe was new or new-ish was her opposition to a red flag law. CORNISH: That she believes they don't work that the government cannot do them in a proper way. I mean, this is a significant part of the Biden administration policy. But it's also something that some Republicans, especially local law enforcement, have embraced. So she's staking out actually pretty hardline positions, even on these issues that are wrapped in soft biography details.

PHILLIP: I do think that the presentation though does matter.

CORNISH: Yes.

PHILLIP: It's important. I mean, when you are on that stage, there's some choreography to it, addressing the audience in the room and the audience of people at home, and understanding how to use that stage effectively.

And I don't -- I'm not bringing this up to be superficial about it, but it starts to matter when you see -- you're going to see a lot of candidates on these stages over the next few months. Some of them are going to be very practiced and rehearsed at presenting themselves well at remembering the lines that they're supposed to deliver at delivering them effectively at pivoting.

And just on the blocking and tackling of being on that stage, she really showed, I thought tonight, that she has that particular experience. And it'll be a major question for a lot of the other candidates, some of whom have more or less experience on the national stage, whether they're able to do the same thing. We've seen this trip up candidates before or over in the cycles in the past --

CORNISH: And this is what campaigning in Iowa looks like, you've been there. It is that close, physically even closer.

BASH: Even closer.

CORNISH: Yes, exactly. I mean, if she was sitting on a hay bale, that would have been the thing, you know, at the Iowa State Fair. It was very similar the way that she used the stage blocking, as you said, effectively turning her back on Jake at some point to address the audience directly. All of that kind of polish is part of her presentation.

At one point in the middle of her lecture, she blessed someone on scene.

BASH: She got to say God bless you. I was just going to say that.

CORNISH: Yes, it's like she's just sort of on the role of being on the road and shaking every single hand. And I think you saw sort of some of the effects of that polishing.

BASH: All right. Well, Kaitlan, there's a lot to chew on. I know that you have to do with all of the political experts and people who have actually worked on campaigns in Iowa and elsewhere up there in New York.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, including some who worked for Haley herself. So we'll get to the table.

Scott, I want to start with you though, because before the town hall, you were saying that Nikki Haley is perceived to be this candidate who sometimes tries to have it both ways. You talked about how she has wavered on Trump and other issues. Did you get clarity in your view on where she stands on issues tonight?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: On a few. And I mean, some of the stuff she said I love, the Russia answer, a clear- eyed defense of what we're doing there and why we have to win and also a clear-eyed bashing of evil dictators in the world.

That was great. I love the COVID stuff. She had a very clear answer on criticism of the old COVID policies. I thought she had clear honesty on entitlement reform. She had a very cool we are in strong defense of women and girls, so I think she believes, and a lot of Republicans believe are under attack from trans activists right now.

[21:40:07]

I did not love her assailing of the debt limit deal because she attacked it and then turned around and said, well, we ought to be clawing back the unspent COVID money. And we ought to be getting rid of the IRS agents, which the COVID deal does. And so that's a -- that's an example of -- that's what a politician would do sort of an uninformed recitation of talking points.

I didn't hear go after Biden, as much as I would have wanted, frankly, as a conservative. I probably tactically would have gone after DeSantis earlier and harder than she did. I thought that was coming sooner. I was surprised about that.

Bottom line for me, she might be the most polished politician in the race. The trouble is, this primary is taking place in a party that doesn't love polished politicians right now. She does when she's winding up. She gives a lot of politician pablum before she gets into the substance of it. And people aren't into it right now since Donald Trump came onto the scene.

COLLINS: Let's say you worked in the Trump White House, and what is your sense of how she did?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: She came to the table incredibly politically astute, prepared and substantive on policy. My fear is that's not necessarily what Republican primary voters want right now.

She was incredibly effective when she was getting into entitlement spending. I think she sounded like a candidate, frankly, from eight to 10 years ago. We were fiscal conservatives when we did stand with our allies abroad, but she articulated it better than most.

And I think her case that she made effectively needs to continue to make is on day one, I have the experience both as a governor and a former U.N. ambassador to deal with world issues. When she's talking foreign policy, she could go toe-to-toe with the president of the United States right now. That is her greatest strength.

I do think that for somebody who's kind of running on the, I'm the compassionate, conservative in the race, which I think is deeply, deeply needed. She's got to have, I think, a more filled out position on the trans issue. And I say that because the trans community is a minority within a minority.

I know that it is very animating to talk about these issues in a Republican primary, but be that unifier that you were after the Mother Emanuel shooter and sit down with trans activists, trans youth, mental health experts, female athletes who felt like they've been disadvantaged, and try to come up with a solution that actually addresses all parties involved. That would be my advice.

COLLINS: David, I mean, you've listened to her, of course, the big question was how she would handle Trump, how she would handle DeSantis. She wasn't referencing them by name when she was talking about their positions on Ukraine, on Kim Jong-un, she was critical of Trump praising Kim Jong-un in recent days.

Of course, Trump met with Kim Jong-un while she was in his administration. What was your sense of how she handled the top two rivals that she has right now?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, she did get to it late on issue of Social Security and Medicare. She actually went after them by name. She clearly went after DeSantis on Disney. That was something she clearly was planning, expecting, planning to do.

And it may be that this early -- I mean, I think it's later than people think, but this early, she may feel like this was as far as she needs to go. They'll be on a debate stage, at least most of them in a couple of months.

Listen, this is what I would say, I agree with everyone's analysis. She's a very polished and warm and performer. I mean, I think she did very, very well in many ways tonight. It's interesting to me, what I came to understand is oftentimes when he -- when she says, let's be honest, that's a prelude to a question she's not going to answer.

OK. So let's be honest about abortion. We've got to find consensus. So where are you on that law in your state that your successor signed? Would you have -- well, I'm not going to answer that. I'm going to, you know, say something, frankly, untrue about Biden's position.

And the same was true on the retirement age. You know, she took the -- she took the big swing at the retirement issue. So where should the retirement age be? I'm not going to tell you I'm an accountant. I got to look at the numbers, you know.

So what I -- what I see is what I thought which is going in, which is she is -- she has the talent to be very effective on the stump, but she tries to slice the salami too thin sometimes. And in presidential politics, ultimately, that catches up with you.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And you can tell what her path is to what she perceives as the nomination. It is right through Ron DeSantis. She had many times this evening, Jake asked specifically questions about Donald Trump, and she didn't address him specifically. She talked about the issue, never really going after him until later in the end.

I asked her campaign, Is this intentional? Is this what you planned to do? And they said, there was never a calculated strategy not to go after Donald Trump, but she just didn't see the opening until later on.

And she goes after Trump and DeSantis on entitlement reform. But for her to really hold her powder back on Trump and give up a real knockout punch to DeSantis on his war on Disney using taxpayer dollars, that just goes to show clearly what her strategy is.

[21:45:58]

And looking at this and speaking with a lot of Iowa voters, they're going to resonate in some part with what she said about the life issue, given that she is -- she is pro-life and her argument that she made to Jake in terms of, don't hold my feet to the fire on a six-week or seven or eight-week abortion ban, if you're not going to hold the Democrats feet to the fire in terms of late term abortion.

I know he followed up with a clarification of questions that Biden has been asked, but the pro-life community in Iowa does want to see. If you're going to ask us on this end, you need to ask the Democrats on the other end.

And I do think also the Second Amendment is a huge issue for Iowa voters. I think a lot of people will take pause with her stating that she does not support red flag laws. I think we have agreed that there are some concessions that can be made with regard to gun violence and red flag laws are an important one. And the fact that she did not support that is going to be noted by a lot.

COLLINS: I must say quickly, Democrats do get asked about where they stand over. We asked Katie Hobbs about it when she was running in Arizona. I've never heard Biden say that he doesn't -- that he just supports abortion up until birth. I just looked it up.

AXELROD: No.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He does not --

COLLINS: I've never seen it. But, David, what were you -- what was your point to make?

AXELROD: Well, a couple of things, you know, on --

SELLERS: In 10 seconds.

AXELROD: -- Trump. I know, but I lied to you. On Trump, you know, she made a point of saying she -- she's traveled the world and she sees the danger that comes when citizens don't trust the integrity of the election process. That would have been a good place to have a comment or two about -- for former president of the United States who did more than any single person to foment lack of trust in the election system.

And then at another point, and I think it was on the trans issue. She said, you know, we don't want a small minority to push their views on the country, but 72 percent of the country support red flag laws, for example. So you can't have it both ways. You can't say, we don't want a small minority to dictate views. And then when the issue turns around, you have a completely different principle.

SELLERS: You know, one of the things that I still have a lingering question about tonight, and I think many voters when you take a step back from a 50,000 foot view is, why is Nikki Haley running for president of the United States? I don't think she answered that question tonight.

But I said at the beginning, she is by far the most talented politician in the country. I still stand by that. She's very nimble the way that she gets in and out of questions, the way that she operates on a stage, the way that she talks, the way that -- I love how Dana said she's focusing. I just looked over and (inaudible) was like, she's from South Carolina. I mean, that's a skill set that comes along with it.

COLLINS: Born (inaudible)

SELLERS: Yes. However, you have these fundamental inconsistencies that we continue to talk about. She weaves herself and talks herself into trouble. Whether or not you talk about abortion, where she stands, she signed a 20-week abortion ban in South Carolina when she was governor.

And then she talked about exceptions but didn't mention the fact that in South Carolina, when she signed that bill, there was only one exception made, which was for the life of the mother. There was no exception made for rape and incest.

You begin to have these conversations about where she stands on January 6, and how she has this fortitude against election denying and Joe Biden is the president. But then we don't talk about the fact that she campaigned around the country for election deniers, like that is a thing Nikki Haley did.

And so when you begin to peel the layers back, when she gets into these cultural discussions, that's when she's the most uncomfortable. And you can tell that when she's talking about foreign policy, Afghanistan, Russia, even I was like, damn, she's good.

But when she -- when she starts talking about trans issues and the women's issues of our lifetime, for example, on when she says that trans girls in a women's bathroom is the women's issue of our time, all I can think about is the fact that my wife nearly died in childbirth.

And me and probably Audie and Abby and many others probably think that one of the greatest issues of our time is African-American women who died during childbirth are three to four times more likely than white women.

Or the fact that in South Carolina, thousands of women in her own state, do not have access to OB/GYNs, right?

So when you begin to have these cultural conversations, and you match them up against her record, that's when Nikki Haley starts to look a little funny in the light. She's very, very skilled. She's going to be dangerous on a debate stage.

And if she does not like you, I'm talking to you, Ron DeSantis, she will eat your lunch. So please be prepared. She's a badass woman. And she's going to be a legitimate candidate. I just don't think she has a lane and did not answer the question of why she's running for president.

ROB GODFREY, FORMER NIKKI HALEY DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF AND SPOKESMAN: But let's get back --

COLLINS: Yes. You worked for her when she was governor. You also worked for McMaster, her successor. What did you think?

GODFREY: So I thought a couple of things here, one, in terms of style, and in terms of tone, and in terms of the way she held herself. She did extraordinarily well. If we're comparing it to the town hall with the former president from last week, I mean, we're talking about --

COLLINS: What a different tone.

GODFREY: -- the high -- the energy event tonight versus a low energy -- versus a low energy event tonight. Or a high energy event tonight versus a low energy event the other night.

But let's not forget, she checks a number of conservative boxes. She talked a lot about the fiscal issues that we talked about, both Republicans and Democrats are responsible for out of control spending, for debt -- for debts and deficits in Washington. And those are important conversations that need to be had and things that she talked about when she was governor.

[21:50:16]

Some of the things that I hope she continues to talk about in Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina are the accomplishments that she had as governor, the accomplishments that she had as ambassador. And I think she'll continue to do that, because as you saw tonight, and as people have seen in the more than two dozen events that she's done in Iowa, she's good.

She's tailor made for these early primary states, where voters and caucus goers demand to meet face to face and talk eye to eye with these candidates about the issues that they care about, whether it was running against the longest serving incumbent House member in South Carolina when she did that and upset him in 2004, whether when it was -- whether she upset a field of heavily favored gubernatorial candidates in 2010.

She is good when she's running behind. And she's good when she has the chance to personally connect with people. And that's what these early primary states are about. COLLINS: But given you worked for her as governor, and you also worked for McMaster, Bakari mentioned she signed that 20-month -- or 20-week abortion ban saying that was what she felt like she could get passed at the time. Obviously, he just signed into law that six-week ban.

What did you make of the fact that she didn't offer a specific on what -- how many weeks into pregnancy she would ban abortion?

GODFREY: Well, I think while the clock is ticking on this race, as David talked about, there's plenty of time for candidates, including Governor Haley, including a number of them to continue -- to continue to flesh out issues. She's going to have to continue to flesh out this issue, along with a couple of other ones that we've talked about over the course of the evening.

So I expect that Iowa caucus goers, New Hampshire voters are going to try to pin her down on that and she's going to be responsible for answering it.

GRIFFIN: I do just want to say really quickly, I think it was incredibly significant, the nuanced answer that she gave on abortion. Love it or hate it, that was probably the most laying out the facts and reality of what doing abortion policy at a federal level requires.

And I worked in the house where every year on the anniversary of Roe, we would send a 20-week that Pain-Capable abortion ban billed to the Senate, that doesn't have 60 votes. There is no votes for in the Senate for a 20-week abortion ban. So I'm not sure that if you're actually break through to the public and explain, I thought her take was very reasonable, which is I don't need to put an artificial date on it. I am willing to sign what can get through our Democratic colleague can do.

SELLERS: Yes. But also, just really quickly, one of the central elements of -- and this has kind of been sizzling in my spirit as we speak colloquially. One of the --

AXELROD: I felt it.

[LAUGHTER]

SELLERS: Thank you. One of the major elements of the Nikki Haley story is Charleston. And it's more nuanced than people give credit for or give her credit for. I want to say two things. One, Nikki Haley did not take down the Confederate flag. That bothers me when she's alludes to it or people state that because that's incorrect. Nine people died so that the Confederate flag could come down. And I don't want that to get lost. And nine people died because of racism.

That is something that bothers me when Nikki Haley says the national media came in and made it about race. No Dylann Roof made it about race when he went in and shot nine people in Mother Emanuel AME. So we have to remember that.

But there also has to be some credit given to a white governor from the Deep South, being able to go to nine funerals because I saw the exhaustion on her face, being a leader during that time and being able to bridge people together. And I'm not sure why Nikki Haley won't tell the full story.

This was an issue about race. This was an issue about race that required leadership at the time. She was the governor, she stepped up at the time and did something that was very valuable. She didn't take it down. Nine -- the blood of nine people took it down.

But the fact that she's not able to bridge that gap, and Tim doesn't do it either, where we have an issue about systemic racism or race in this country, that that's in my spirit.

AXELROD: Actually, I feel -- I feel you --

COLLINS: Can we have a quick respond?

AXELROD: But the -- go ahead.

COLLINS: Because -- and also, she's the first woman of color that is running in this.

GODFREY: Yes. I would like to say as someone who traveled with her to Charleston in the wake of that shooting, that the governor has always told the full story of the flag. And I've never heard her try to take credit for bringing the flag down. I think that all of us can agree, it's distasteful to try to claim credit or give credit to anyone besides the nine innocent souls who lost their lives in Bible study.

Now, what she did do is demonstrate leadership at a critical time in the state. And the immediate aftermath of the Walter Scott shooting, which a lot of people don't remember when (inaudible) were over.

SELLERS: Same summer.

GODFREY: No question. This passed a significant body cam bill in South Carolina.

COLLINS: For the body camera.

[21:55:59]

GODFREY: Yes. And what she did was she gave a lot of her colleagues and policymakers in the state who had never acted over the course of time on this issue of the -- of removing the flag from the Statehouse grounds, she gave them cover to do so. And that's leadership. And leadership is oftentimes brought about and defined by class.

SELLERS: It's also calling -- it's calling a thing a thing. And that's my only point. Go ahead. Even it's you. Go ahead.

GODFREY: I don't -- I don't think -- and I don't think she's hesitated to call it racist.

AXELROD: Here's the -- here's her -- here's her problem. Besides whatever inclination she has to parse things too much, she's trying -- you say she's a compassionate conservative. She can't call herself that because that is not where the Republican Party is today. And so she doesn't go there, and Tim Scott doesn't go there, because the party is not there. That is not where the energy in the Republican Party is right now.

COLLINS: Well, I think what she's trying to do.

GODFREY: I'd like --

AXELROD: No, but that's when she gets to sort of tap dancing.

STEWART: If I can just say it, I'm feeling it over here now.

SELLERS: It's the spirit on this side.

AXELROD: Kaitlan, you're maybe next.

STEWART: I think it's important to not get back to what has happened so many times. You can't paint the entire Republican Party as not compassionate conservatives. Republican -- a large swath of primary voters are compassionate conservatives. Yes, Donald Trump has hijacked the party. Yes, MAGA Republicans are very vocal and he has the largest chunk, but to say that they're not compassionate --

AXELROD: Alice, I have a lot of Republican friends, OK? Some of them on the stage here. But -- so I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not denigrating all republicans. I will tell you that three quarters of the Republican vote, right now, are going to Donald Trump and a guy who's trying to beat Donald Trump, OK? That's not compassionate conservatism. And that's where they think the Republican Party is right now. And that is a problem for a candidate who -- whose mindset is not there.

COLLINS: All right. We're going to have to leave it there. We have to get in a quick break. We'll continue that conversation, everyone.

Obviously we'll be right back. We are breaking down everything from our town hall with Nikki Haley, including a fact check coming up from Daniel Dale right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:00:41]

COLLINS: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of tonight's CNN Town Hall with Nikki Haley. I'm Kaitlan Collins, along with Dana Bash.

Haley is, of course, among the growing fields of Republican presidential hopeful, and tonight she fielded a slew of questions from voters that she hopes will put her in the White House, including a question on one of the most divisive subjects in America right now abortion.

BASH: Here's what the only woman to enter the Republican primary so far said what she was asked when she was asked to share, I should say, her plans for abortion policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I'm going to call you Ambassador Haley.

NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am unapologetically pro- life. Having said that, I don't judge anyone for being pro-choice any more than I want them to judge me for being pro-life. The question that everybody is talking about is, is there a federal role for this?

And I think that there is a federal role for this. But if we're going to do that, you have to be honest with the American people of what it takes to do that. I think we can all agree on banning late term abortions. I think we can all agree on encouraging adoptions and making sure those foster kids feel more love, not less. I think we can agree on doctors and nurses who don't believe in abortion shouldn't have to perform them. Can't we start there?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: The former South Carolina Governor recently endorsed a federal abortion ban, but also said she didn't think it would be realistic to get one passed. Tonight, she declined to say if she would sign a six- week abortion ban if it came to her desk.

COLLINS: Yeah, Dana, she also tap danced a bit around the subject of her former boss, former President Trump, of course, who is now her rival for the Republican nomination. She did not go in all in on any attack whenever his name came up and instead said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: After January 6, you said this about him, "we need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have and we shouldn't have followed him, and we shouldn't have listened to him. And we can't let that ever happen again." Do you still feel that way?

HALEY: Yes. He thinks it was a beautiful day. I think it was a terrible day. I'll always stand by that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: She did also say that she did not believe Trump or Florida Governor Ron DeSantis were being honest with the American people when it came to the subject of entitlements.

She even went as far as to say both of them were lying about not having to deal with that reform dinner. Of course, big question still, though, on what she wants the age on Social Security to go to when she was saying it should be someone in their 20s, they should change that age. She did not get into the specifics on that.

BASH: She didn't get into the specifics, but she did say the retirement age should be raised, which is noteworthy. I want to talk about that and so much more with our own Jeff Zeleny, who is inside the auditorium at the Grand View University in Des Moines. So, Jeff, what was it like in the room?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is clear that Republicans are enthusiastic and they are eager to look for options as they try to win back the White House. And the voters here tonight are the activists of activists.

They are business owners, they are party officials. And talking to a few of them as they left and watching them as they were watching her, they walked away largely impressed by what seemed to be an honesty streak. In the words of a one voter really saying she's going to -- would call it straight with the American people.

On abortion in particular, that did not necessarily please everyone in the room. We will see how that plays out, particularly among some evangelical voters. But it was clear that she had a broader audience in mind. But I think most significantly was how she was unafraid, in fact, very willing to go after Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. She is clearly trying to hold off some Republican voters for signing on with him or getting on board with him as he shapes up his candidacy here.

I think it was very clear tonight that she has been doing this for a long time. She's been traveling across Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, holding meetings exactly like this. They're not on television, of course, but she's been taking questions from voters.

So she was very practiced, very skilled. Some liked her sense of humor. Some liked the fact that she was completely willing to talk about Ukraine, to talk about the America's role in the world. So I think that I'm not sure if she won over many converts here tonight as I was talking to voters as they were walking away. But they liked what they heard in terms of her honesty, and they liked her strength.

And I think her humor at the end, she's like, I'm in this to win it. I'm not playing second fiddle. So I think tonight she did herself a lot of good with Republican voters here.

[22:05:07]

But again, the lack of specifics here can be perhaps fine in June as the campaign goes on, that becomes more of a challenge to fill in those blanks when she's pressed by voters.

BASH: Yeah, I mean, at this point in the race, Jeff, it's about getting the Iowa people, the Iowa voters, those who are going to go to the caucuses to just keep their mind open to someone like her.

ZELENY: Right.

BASH: And thank you so much, Jeff. And Kaitlan, that is something that according to Jeff, just being in the room, she was successful at there, again, it is early and again, there are a whole lot of other candidates getting into the race, even this coming week.

COLLINS: Yeah, three more this week. So we're going to see that field continue to grow. Of course, Iowa voters are very well informed and want to know specifics on all of those topics, the big topics in the Republican race.

Dana, I want to bring in CNN's Daniel Dale. He is here to fact check some of what we heard tonight, including Nikki Haley's comments on crime. This is what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: We don't want to take away the constitutional right for someone to protect and defend their families in America. And when you've got crime at all-time highs, you've got illegal immigrants crossing the border, you've got mental health crisis, that's as much as it is. The last thing I'm going to do is take away the ability for someone to protect themselves and their family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Daniel, I know you have been looking into this, checking her comments. What do the facts say about this?

Kaitlan, Governor Haley's claim that crime is at an all-time high is not even close to accurate. Crime in the United States was far higher in the early 1990 than it is today. It has fallen steadily with a few short upticks over the last three decades. If you drew a graph, you'd see a steep line downward from those early 90s, then a recent flattening out with some ups and downs.

Now, we do not have precise numbers for the present day or even last year. Crime data takes time to come in, but every expert on this subject will tell you that we're not even close to the numbers of the bad old days of three decades ago.

The country's violent crime rate in 1992, for example, was 758 per 100,000 people. In 2020, it was under 400 violent crimes per 100,000 people. Now, 2021 data is a bit dicey, but it looks roughly similar.

During the town hall tonight, I texted with one expert, a crime analyst and consultant named Jeff Asher, and he confirmed crime has fallen steadily over the last few decades. He also added this, he said, "The nation did experience a historically large increase in murder in 2020.

I, Daniel, will note that was under President Trump, and he continued, and another small rise in 2021. That said, the nation's murder rate in 2021 was nowhere near an all-time high, as it was 30% lower than it was in 1991.

Additionally, murder likely fell nationally in 2022, and preliminary data from big cities is indicative of a possible large decrease in murder occurring nationally in 2023, albeit still above 2019 levels.

So, Kaitlan, Governor Haley's claim isn't close to true, either in general or with regard to murder. That's the crime for which we have the most reliable stats. And I should also note, this wasn't like a one-time town hall slip. She also made this false claim of an all-time crime high at an Iowa campaign event yesterday.

COLLINS: And that is why we keep you around. Daniel Dale, thank you for that.

Dana, of course, questions about not just what she said on crime, but also abortion and the other many topics that they talked on. That they talked about, of course, in her comments about abortion and where President Biden and Vice President Harris stand when it comes to where she was declining to say where she stands on how many weeks of a ban she would sign into law.

BASH: Yeah, a lot more that we're going to hear, likely from Daniel Dale. And this is one of the reasons we keep him around. You know that, right, Kaitlan?

COLLINS: There are many.

BASH: There are many. Thanks, Kaitlan. Abby and Audie are back here and guess what? David Chalian is joining the table. They haven't gotten your thoughts, your very important big thoughts.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think her being in this race for four months already was on display tonight. I think there's a lot of muscle musculature work that goes on the campaign trail for these candidates. And she's been at this the longest, minus Donald Trump.

And I think we saw that tonight. And so for some candidates who have just gotten into this race, who aren't quite ready maybe to do a town hall like this on national, international television, you see why. Because you learn as you go as a candidate from the voters the questions that are on their minds and you sort of work out your lines.

I will say also, she obviously has the experience of a governor and U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. I thought she was maybe at her strongest in the foreign policy section. I think when she was talking about the war in Ukraine, when she was talking about China, when she was talking about Kim Jong-un.

Yes, she wasn't calling Donald Trump out by name necessarily, but I think she was making her strongest stand of looking for a path of differentiation and delineation from the two leading candidates in the race.

[22:10:05]

BASH: Which is kind of ironic.

(CROSSTALK)

CORNISH: Right? Because she was Trump's like foreign policy voice kind of foremost foreign policy.

BASH: We've been saying the same thing at the same time.

CORNISH: Yeah, sorry, I know.

BASH: Which I like, thank you. Go ahead. CORNISH: Well, no, I was just going to say, I mean, where she wants to draw the line naturally doesn't come so naturally because of the time she spent in the Trump administration doing the thing she was on the international stage.

I also want to point out one other thing on abortion. We're focused on how many weeks that kind of question about sort of where she stands on a potential federal ban.

The thing that drew my ear is when she said that people don't want to see women basically imprisoned or getting the death penalty for abortions. And she's getting at this idea of overreach in the places where they are trying to create enforcement mechanisms or fetal personhood laws, that sort of thing, and trying to say, look, there is -- you can go too far with this and I don't want to go that far.

And it's just one of the many instances where it just feels like there is a policy or two she feels has appeal to centrists and she's going to just kind of underscore them.

CHALIAN: Audie, I totally agree with you. I know there's a lot of conversation about her not being pinned down on a specific on the abortion issue, but I thought it was so clear. She was -- it's like one area where she seems to have the general election next November in her mind much more than just the quest for the Republican nomination or the evangelical base in Iowa.

Kind of reminded me a little bit, if you guys remember, in the Democratic race four years ago when some of them would be asked about universal health care or not the Bernie Sanders proposal of Medicaid, Medicare for all.

And they were trying to preserve some space for themselves to get to a different place in a general election context. It's my takeaway from watching her was like that's what she's trying to do on this issue of abortion.

PHILLIP: I think that is very true. I mean, she was trying to preserve her options for down the road. However, I do think what makes this election cycle very different on abortion is that now we have -- these are not theoretical discussions anymore. This isn't just about messaging.

This is about laws. And that's what's going to make this idea of just let's all just listen to each other insufficient. I think it's necessary, but it's not sufficient to get her through a general election on this issue.

She is going to have to answer that question about at what point. And when Jake asked about not just the weeks, but about the circumstances, the stories that you hear about women who are carrying unviable fetuses, maybe in their 38th week and due to some of these abortion laws, have to carry a fetus that is not viable for weeks in their bodies without getting medical care.

Those are real, practical scenarios that she's not -- she and all the other candidates, they're not going to be able to avoid. And that is happening because Roe v. Wade is not on the table anymore. It's just not hypothetical anymore.

BASH: It's not, no, very much not.

Let's switch gears and talk about January 6, because that was very, very notable how -- when Jake pressed her more than once on the idea of election lies not about voter integrity, not about what happened in different states, but specifically about the steady diet of real lies that came from Washington, from the men in White House, about what happened in the 2020 election.

And she had a very specific line that she was going to use, which is that she said it was the worst day, not the best day, and she wasn't going to go anywhere near anything else.

CHALIAN: Yeah, it was -- because she used the line multiple times.

BASH: Multiple times.

CHALIAN: Yeah. She had said, Donald Trump calls it a great day and. And I think it was a terrible day or a sad day and would never think otherwise. And when pressed, she repeated that line. She -- we've seen out on the trail where she doesn't want to engage on the conspiracy theories piece of it all and all of the debunked claims around the election.

She starts zeroing in on states, some states changed their election laws in the midst of an unprecedented pandemic to make sure that an election come off and people had access to vote. That is true. States did change their laws. States that Joe Biden won, states that Donald Trump won changed some of their laws.

She uses that as a way to sort of, I feel like, be sidle up and say, hey, I can use the election integrity line here and not offend those who are enthralled with Donald Trump and the MAGA movement and committed to the election lies without subscribing myself to the election lies.

To your point, Abby, at some point, if indeed she's the nominee, and if this progresses, it seems to me that she's going to be pressed to take a much firmer stand when it comes to the integrity of elections and accepting election results and whether or not there's a place for any kind of lies about the 2020 election.

[22:15:02]

BASH: But it also puts into question, maybe it puts into focus, actually, where she thinks she needs to play in order to get the most votes. And it isn't against Donald Trump right now. It's against Ron DeSantis and the other people running against Donald Trump because there are others who argue the only way to really topple Donald Trump is to really take him on. And the only way you're going to be the nominee is if you take on the front runner. She's not there right now.

CORNISH: Well, she knows it's early. So I do want to say that I think she knows that anyone who knows, watching what's happened with Donald Trump is there's no incentive to take him on. There's no winning there. And delaying that as long as possible is something you can and choose to do in this case, what she's doing. Ron DeSantis merely ran out of time, right? He felt like he had to start addressing it.

One piece of context about this is people may not remember that in 2016, Nikki Haley gave the GOP rebuttal to President Barack Obama's State of the Union address, and it was kind of literal end of an era.

And I think what she and others in the party thought would be the start of another era, right? An era that was your Marco Rubio's, your Jim Scott's and your Nikki Haley's. And then there's a little bit of a girl interrupted vibe, because what she would have been is not what she is now, right?

Now that she's been put through this sort of Trump Cabinet Republican policy blender. You're coming out of those years, and the party is so different. So what does Nikki Haley have to do? What can she retain from the old Nikki Haley?

And what can she use now, right, to both prove that she's not, you know, misleading people, that her polish, isn't something to be ignored or dismissed, and at the same time still appeal to those very same voters that she's coming back for. Because that kind of, in a way, was one of the many things that launched her political star. And the party's just different now.

BASH: No, I'm just picturing being -- sorry, Abby, just picturing being in South Carolina in 2016 when she endorsed Marco Rubio and having and watching them on the stage with Tim Scott, making that argument.

CORNISH: They traveled in a bus together. Yeah, it was the whole generational argument.

BASH: Yeah, which she's now making, but in a very different context.

PHILLIP: I do think I saw a lot of the old Nikki Haley on that stage today, though. In a way -- actually, in a way that what was -- somewhat surprising because she knows actually how to speak the kind of MAGA language when she wants to, and she chose not to in a lot -- at a lot of opportunities, a lot of junctures tonight.

She really did lean on, it was a lot of policy, but she took a little South Carolina folksiness and made it a little bit more accessible. I do believe that was a real choice tonight. I think she could have done more to appeal to a MAGA base and chose not to. And maybe it has to do with what some Republicans in Iowa are saying, which is that maybe there's an underappreciated degree to which many Iowa Republicans right now are not looking for the Trumpiest person in the field.

And Nikki Haley may be making a bet that if she presents policy in a way that's more digestible and she leans into a little bit of the old kind of George W. Bush Republican Party, the old ish Nikki Haley who understands the MAGA base. That might be a little bit of a different lane. I mean, it's certainly different from Ron DeSantis, and it's certainly

different from some of the other candidates, like the Chris Christie's, who we'll see this week. And May Mike Pence, who this weekend kind of debuted this almost strident, you know, argument that really is about an anti-Trump approach to politics. She might be trying to carve out a slightly different lane here.

BASH: Yeah, she is. And as you said. At the beginning, just now, she's going back to the Nikki Haley, who became a member of the South Carolina legislature, and then, of course, governor and Kaitlan, that is the kind of politician, I mean, Bakari was making fun of me for using the word folksy because that's what they do in South Carolina, but it's not what they necessarily see in Iowa or other places around the country.

COLLINS: Yeah, he meant that in good faith. He told me that.

BASH: Of course, he did.

COLLINS: But as you all were talking there, David, mentioned one of those moments that I do want to replay from the town hall. Nikki Haley was being asked about her former boss, who, of course, as you all noted, she did work for him as his U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. In recent days, he has congratulated the North Korean dictator after they got an appointment to a board on the World Health Organization. This is what she said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Kim Jong-un is a thug. And if you see what he has done to his own people in North Korea when money went to North Korea, it didn't go to feed their people. It went to feed their nuclear program. I don't think we ever should congratulate dictators, congratulate our friends, don't congratulate our enemies. It emboldens them when we do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:20:05]

COLLINS: And my panel is back here and with me. Alyssa, you worked at the Pentagon during the Trump administration. I wonder what you made of that, because of course, she was serving in that role when Trump was talking so glowingly about sitting down with Kim Jong-un. Of course, his first-time meeting with him was that summer of 2018. What do you make of her most direct criticism tonight to her former boss?

FARAH GRIFFIN: So, Nikki Haley has tremendous moral clarity when it comes to foreign policy. I think if there is a lane that she knows and she is unequivocal on, it's the role of the U.S. in the world, how we interact with our adversaries and with our allies, and that was demonstrated.

I would remind you that in the Trump administration, at times she would go a bit further on the United Nations than the White House actually wanted her to, and we would then kind of have to tell her to reel it back in. You're freelancing, you're going too far. She has -- she is somebody

who very much has staked what her position is when it comes to national defense and foreign policy, and she wasn't going to waffle there.

It's on more of the domestic policy front that I think she's trying to toe the line of keeping Trump voters in line and trying to get some of their support, that you see her waffling a bit and that's when she tends to not be as strong is when she's doing the fence straddling. But foreign policy, she nails it.

COLLINS: Yeah, I remember that moment whenever Rex Tillerson was Secretary of State and he said she was confused about Russian sanctions. And she said --

GRIFFIN: I don't get confused.

COLLINS: I don't get confused. It was quite a moment inside the walls of the West Wing. But Scott, her position on Ukraine, is that in line with what Republican voters want?

JENNINGS: Well, I think it's in line with what Republican voters need to hear, and I wish more people would make such a clear-eyed defense of what we're doing there and why it's important for the world.

There is a segment of Republican voters, because of a rising isolationism in our country that think we should just pull out. It's unfortunate because I think it exists on the right and the left candidly, and neither party has a monopoly on it.

I think on Haley, on domestic issue, on all issues tonight, I think the issue with her, is not about making policy, because I'm not sure voters want you to do that. I think they want you to make war. It's a vibe check.

Republicans feel surrounded. They feel surrounded, and they perceive cultural rot in almost every institution universities, media, corporations, politics, government, and getting a lecture about a clinical study on this policy or that policy.

The real question is, where surrounded? And will you fight for it? Will you scratch and claw our way out of this being surrounded, that's what she's trying to solve for. That's what Trump solved for. He's not a doctrinal conservative, but he is a blow it all up kind of guy. And I think that's where she's still got some room to grow, and I think that's why DeSantis is in a solid state.

SELLERS: And that's -- but that's also where she's going to excel. And I think you're right. I think she's going to excel when she gets the moment. If she takes that moment on the debate stage with Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump, if he ever shows up, if he listens to David's advice, he will not. But on the issue of foreign policy, because it actually hearkens back to a day of George Bush. I mean, she sounds like Lindsey Graham. I mean, it's that hawkish type of old-style conservatism that the Republican Party is moving away from. I mean, I don't want to preach to Republicans about what your foreign

policy is, but that's just not the foreign policy of, it's an American first ideal today. And what she displayed on the stage tonight on that issue, she was crisp. She didn't waffle.

And I made a mistake earlier. I called her white governor, I should say she's a governor of color, but she stood there in that space and she owned it. And I think that if she's willing to take those shots and discern and make that distinction with Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis, but she has to be willing to throw that punch, because you all are looking for fighters, and she has to be willing to fight. I think that's the only ground she can fight on.

JENNINGS: The question is, if you're fighting, though, are you fighting for something that most of the people want to hear? And that's ultimately the debate we're going to have.

AXELROD: Fighting for what you believe.

JENNINGS: Yeah.

AXELROD: And I think that's a big question here. Because I think she does come from a different tradition of Republicanism than the one you're describing. And you could see her tonight kind of signifying with her position on the trans issue and against red flag laws and some other in other places, she was trying to signify to the base, you know, I'm one of you, I get you.

And then in other places, she felt uncomfortable doing it. And I'll tell you something about the process. Having been through it a few times, it gets harder the better you do. She passed -- this was a first test, and I think she did very, very well. The bar constantly gets lifted, and you get -- and people start drilling down on your answers.

And the things that work tonight for her will not work a month or two months from now or on a debate stage. And so she's got to decide where she is going to plant her feet, even if at times it means saying, no, I don't think six weeks is appropriate. Or no, I don't -- you know, I think she's going -- I don't think she win this by trying to finesse your way through the process. I don't think that's going to work.

[22:25:01]

STEWART: One of the things that she did, I think that came from being out on the campaign trail is taking big policy issues and making them relatable. She took Ukraine. A lot of -- there's been a lot of conversation about, should we have continued support for Ukraine?

A lot of people say there needs to be certainly more transparency. She took the policy issue and made it personal in terms of this is about freedom. This is about freedom in the world and if Russia succeeds here, it will continue to grow.

COLLINS: Actually, listen, before you finish your point to what she said, just remind people of what she said on Ukraine, because I want to hear your take on it. But I also want people to remember what it was she said at the beginning of that town hall tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: This is bigger than Ukraine. This is a war about freedom, and it's one we have to win. You look at those Ukrainians and what did they do? When Russia invaded their freedoms, they moved in there, went to the front lines, and fought for their country.

The women said, we're not going to stay back. They made Molotov cocktails to defend their country. Everybody gave them five days to survive. But yet their passion and their will pushed them forward. What we have to understand is a win for Ukraine is a win for all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEWART: And that's important. You know, a lot of people look at the millions and billions of dollars that are being allocated for Ukraine. And when you put it on a personal level like that, it's impactful. Two other areas where she was able to do this. When the question was about the economy and what are you going to do to improve the economy and help small business owners?

The small business owner asked the question. She said, look, while the numbers might look good and the Biden administration is praising the numbers and the unemployment rate, it still affects small business owners. You feel it. So she understand that she's able to connect with them because she's been out there on the campaign trail.

And one other issue on the crime. We had the fact check on the crime. Numbers aren't as serious as she says. But she's been speaking with people, and if they say that public safety is a concern to them, then it is an important issue, regardless of what the stats say. If people say public safety is a concern, then that's something that should be addressed. The perception on that, right?

COLLINS: And yeah, you're right. She is the first -- she was the first one to get into the race to challenge Trump. Of course, she's far from the last. We're expecting three others to get into the race this week. Tim Scott, who is also from South Carolina, is already in the race. Do you think she did, did she distinguish herself from the Mike Pence's, from the Tim Scott, from the other candidates that she's running on the same tier as?

GODFREY: I think that she's distinguished herself from Vice President Pence and from Governor Christie and some of the other candidates just in terms of her style, her ability to connect, her authenticity, her energy, and the generational argument that she makes.

Both she and Tim Scott are exceptionally -- are exceptional points of pride for the people of South Carolina. They're not running -- they're not running campaigns where they're in need of attacking each other. They're running campaigns where their opponent is Donald Trump.

And so I think that you have to distinguish among these candidates not necessarily by tiers, but by the campaigns they're running, the issues that they're talking about, and really the energy they have and the staying power that they have. When you're starting to talk about money, when you're starting to talk about donor viability and stuff like that.

SELLERS: I think, the larger point that Nikki has to contend with is simply this, like if you want the antithesis to Donald Trump, will a Republican voter say, it's Nikki Haley? If you want something like Donald Trump with without the baggage, will a Republican voter say, it's Nikki Haley? I think the answer to that, I'm not sure she answered that, that it's me. I think if you want Donald Trump light, it looks like it's Ron DeSantis.

If you want a true -- tried and true conservative, it's Mike Pence or Tim Scott. I'm just not sure. She answered the question of why me? Why now?

GRIFFIN: But the one thing I do think that she did that may stand out from this is again with Vice President Pence getting in the race with Tim Scott in the race is the only woman in the race. She offered the most nuanced answer on abortion. She's going to be running against all male candidates who I'm not sure where Chris Christie is yet, who are running in a lane that is much more restrictive on abortion access than what she laid out.

I think she was playing to a general election audience. I think she was very aware that she was on CNN and voters who haven't heard from her or hearing from her for the first time. But that is a differentiator that I think will be remembered.

COLLINS: And of course, that's been the big question with people like Governor DeSantis who signed that six-week abortion ban into law. Does it hurt him and the general if he makes it there? We'll see. Everyone stand by. We are continuing to break down the town hall with Nikki Haley.

When we're back, she reveals what she says was the hardest time of her life and how she handled it. Plus, when should Americans retire? That's a big question. Nikki Haley now suggesting a bold change. This is CNN's continuing Special Coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:33:30]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Here you have DeSantis, who accepted 50,000 in political contributions from Disney. He went and put their executives and their lobbyists on prominent boards throughout Florida. And he went and basically gave the highest corporate subsidies in Florida history to Disney. But because they went and criticized him, now he's going to spend taxpayer dollars on a lawsuit.

It's just like all this vendetta stuff, we've been down that road again. We can't go down that. Businesses were my partners in South Carolina. We didn't always get along. And I -- you know, luckily, South Carolina is very anti-woke. But when you have a company like that, don't bring the citizens taxpayer dollars into it. Pick up the phone, deal with it, settle it the way you should. And I just think he's being hypocritical in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That is Nikki Haley at tonight's town hall criticizing Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, saying that he is hypocritical when it comes to his past ties to Disney now that he is in an ongoing feud with the company.

Back at my table with the panel here. Of course, Scott, this is something that is coming up to every Republican presidential candidate. It was one of her most direct shots at DeSantis. A little bit, I think with reference to Trump. They're talking all this vendetta stuff. What did you make of her comments there?

JENNINGS: I don't understand the attack. She's saying he took money from Disney and now he's attacking Disney. Wouldn't the real attack be that if he took money from Disney and then went easy on them? I mean, in my opinion, to take money, which, by the way, he raises hundreds of millions of dollars, so lots of people have donated to DeSantis. The real attack would be if he didn't do anything.

[22:35:08]

I'm not certain she understands the cultural vibe. And the reason DeSantis is going after Disney, it doesn't have anything to do with being critical of him. It has everything to do with what I said earlier, the perception that there is a cultural rot being driven by these corporations.

And DeSantis is trying to signal to Republicans that, look, Trump gets distracted. He's easily distracted by the next shiny object. I will never get distracted from these people. I will fight it and root it out where it is forever. That's what he's communicating. I'm not sure her attack is going to work in this primary.

GRIFFIN: But you missed the second part of that attack respectfully, which was saying he's using taxpayer dollars to do it. Pick up the phone and call Disney. I mean, that's what an executive should be doing, is working with the businesses, the second biggest employer in his state, to say, here's the issues that we have. Let's come up with a solution that works.

That's where I think he starts to lose the more traditional conservatives who think we can find allies and partnerships with business, even if we dislike some of the ESG and the CSR that they're doing.

JENNINGS: But Republicans are wanting Republican officials to take a more muscular view of their political power. They look at liberals and Democrats who have power and say they drive their agenda no matter what. And they don't want Republicans to sit back and watch the culture rot. That's why DeSantis is doing what he's doing.

GRIFFIN: They all want it until their tax is go up. And their jobs go away.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: This is fascinating to watch, that Republicans actually think going after Disney is a good idea.

AXELROD: Well, no --

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: I was laughing at the idea that liberals always get to liberals sit around and lament how muscular Republicans are and how weak they are. Everybody needs a big therapy session where they can all --

JENNINGS: Are you familiar with --

COLLINS: It's happening right here.

JENNINGS: -- constitutional items that Joe Biden has pursued? That's one of the things that's keeping him alive in the party is going outside the bounds of the Constitution.

AXELROD: But what Alyssa says is really important because -- I think -- I think you're right. I think that the base of the Republican Party is eating up this Disney attack. I think that old line, traditional Republicans are appalled by it because it offends their sense of the role of government.

And, you know -- and Ron DeSantis 10 years ago, wrote a book that would have implied that he would have been appalled by it. So this is the point I keep making. I'm not sure that the Republican Party that is left is a party that is going to be receptive to the candidate we saw on the stage tonight. I just don't know if she can finesse that and straddle that line.

SELLERS: The reason that there is another section of the American public, particularly like the general population, the general election voters who think this is silly is because on one hand you can't say that Americans are having trouble with pocketbook needs. That we have to be strong and stand with Ukraine, that we have to make sure we take care of the border, that we have to do these very, very strong issues and take these strong policy points or domestic and foreign policy issues, and then you're fighting Mickey Mouse, like from just a general election voter. This argument that Ron DeSantis, it's a hell of a gamble is just fundamentally politically silly. And what happens if you don't win? Like Disney is fighting you back? And what happens if the perception changes that you are losing to Mickey Mouse?

JENNINGS: It was so silly that he won reelection by 20 points.

SELLERS: I would have beat Charlie Chris, OK.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: But what he has done and the signals he has sent to people have not just worked for Republicans in Florida, it has worked on Democrats. He won Miami-Dade.

GRIFFIN: He didn't win Miami-Dade because of the fight with Disney, because of the tax status in Florida. It's one of the best states live in. It's safe. People are flocking there more than any other state in the country. I wish I could live in Florida. It's a great state. Why does he not run on the economy and those accomplishments?

SELLERS: Is it Joe Biden supporter please let his platform be. He will beat Disney.

COLLINS: Well, let's talk about what Nikki Haley said, though, on this issue. Because she was governor and she was talking about how she worked with businesses she's welcomed, saying, Disney is welcome to South Carolina, something DeSantis has criticized her for.

GODFREY: Well, regardless of the merits of the argument about Disney right now, I do think that some people underestimate the fact that at Republican activist meetings for years, Disney has been a punching bag for one reason and or another.

And I think there are a number of Republican voters who may disagree with Governor Haley and say Governor DeSantis knows the people of his state better than anyone else does. And so they know what fights they want him to pick and what fights are appropriate for him to pick.

And so, I don't know how this fight or how this fight ends up in this primary, but I do think that it's a more complicated one than we say. And I don't know -- and I think that Bakari is probably right that in the general election, it's bad --

STEWART: And she was able to and that answers kind of check two boxes, and when you prepare for town halls, you figure out what you want to check off. She checked off one being a major, you know, punch in the face to Ron DeSantis.

[22:40:06]

But she also checked the box to what do republic who are woke? What do they want to hear? Because she also followed that up, you know, we don't need to be having concerns about what many Republicans fear or have concerns with is a lot of this transgender men in sports and women's sports. That is concern for many Republicans and also the military and the use of pronouns and implementing that into the military. These are things that many Republicans want to hear. Republican candidate in the Iowa primary talk about. And so she was able to check that box and also ding DeSantis.

AXELROD: Well, she actually said she thought DeSantis didn't go far enough in his law, so she tried to, again, do both things at once.

Listen, I think DeSantis is making a big gamble, which is he can go as far right on these cultural issues as he is and somehow outflank Trump, emerge as the nominee and then win a general election because Biden, in his view, is so enfeebled that he can beat him. I think the positions he's taking are going to be heavy, heavy baggage in a general election if he were to become the nominee. Now she's making a different gamble, which is that she can finesse her

way through this, not take positions on some of these issues and emerge in a general election and compete. The problem with that is you have to get to the general election. And I'm not sure that this lane that she imagines is there for her.

COLLINS: Yeah, we'll see what that lane looks like, especially as this field is only growing.

Up next, we're also going to talk about what she said when comes to foreign policy issues, what she said about her position on the war in Ukraine. Tonight when we come back, we'll go live to Kyiv on the ground.

Plus, we're going to do a big look ahead at this week on the campaign trail. As we noted, three more are getting into the race. What impact will Mike Pence and Chris Christie and the Governor of North Dakota Doug Burgum have on this race? Standby.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:46:02]

COLLINS: Before she was a presidential candidate, Nikki Haley was the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations under former President Trump. Tonight, she told voters in Iowa why she believes it is in America's best interest to keep supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: The way you prevent war is not that we give cash to Ukraine, not that we put troops on the ground, but that we get with our allies and we make sure that we give them the equipment and the ammunition to win. Because when Ukraine wins, that sends a message to China with Taiwan, it sends a message to Iran that wants to build a bomb, sends a message to North Korea testing ballistic missiles. And it sends a message to Russia that it's over. That's what we have to do.

And keep in mind, everybody wants to know, well, how does this war end? It would end in a day if Russia would pull out. If Ukraine pulls out, then we're all looking at a world war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Haley's remarks tonight, a clear break from her former boss and now 2024 opponent Donald Trump. He refused to say if he believed Ukraine should win that war and also wouldn't say whether or not Vladimir Putin was a war criminal in his own town hall.

Haley, tonight referred to Putin as a tyrant. This all comes as Ukraine does appear to be gaining momentum in its effort to take the war into Russian territory ahead of that expected counter offensive.

CNN's Frederik Pleitgen is tracking the latest developments live from Kyiv. Fred, obviously, Ukrainian officials have a vested interest in who the potential Republican nominee is, given their big questions over whether or not a future president, a future Republican president, should they win, would continue funding Ukraine. I wonder what officials make of comments like Nikki Haley's compared to comments like those of Trump?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think they'd be fully on board with what Nikki Haley said in the town hall tonight. In fact, I was actually sitting with an advisor to Ukraine's presidency just a couple of days ago. And one of the points he made was pretty much exactly the point that Nikki Haley made in the town hall tonight. Is he saying, look, to them, this is a battle between autocracy and democracy. And if Ukraine loses, then autocracy wins. And they think that that is something where the west should have a vested interest in that.

One of the things I think that he said to me was that the west is supporting Ukraine because the west is supporting themselves. So clearly, the Ukrainians are trying to frame it that way in a battle that is bigger than Ukraine, which is exactly what Nikki Haley said tonight as well.

However, Kaitlan, I think one of the things that's really important to point out, and of course, you just did, is that the Ukrainians certainly view with a lot of concern the upcoming presidential election, because, of course, they did hear the comments that President Trump made. They heard the comments that Ron DeSantis -- or former President Trump made, they heard the comments that Ron DeSantis made as well. And one of the things that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the president of this country, said is he said, look, when Ukraine was invaded, president Biden stepped up. That support is ongoing, and of course, he has some serious concerns in light of the fact that that support could change in the future. It's a big concern for the Ukrainians also, because right now they are pretty much fully dependent on supplies of Western weapons.

And they're not only cautious and concerned about losing the supplies of weapons from the U.S. But that the entire support for Ukraine could collapse if the U.S. changes its point of view on all this. One thing, for instance, the Germans agreed to give main battle tanks to Ukraine, and they only did so because the U.S. said it would give Abrams main battle tanks as well.

So the Ukrainians right now are saying they are ready for their counter offensive. They say it could take a very long time. But of course, they also understand that this war could take a very long time. And there's a lot of things that they still want to get from the U.S. and from allies. Talking about F-16s, for instance, but also one of the things that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, was talking about as well was more air defenses. So they are looking very closely at what the candidates are saying. Certainly we've been looking very closely tonight as well, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Yeah. And you really see the span of the Republican field, especially today when Vivek Ramaswamy, who is a long shot candidate, to be sure, but he said today he believed Ukraine would have to make major concessions to have that end. Fred Pleitgen, live from Kyiv. Thank you. [22:50:03]

Up next, the GOP field is about to grow and get even more crowded. One of those candidates promises that he will go directly after Donald Trump. We'll talk about who that is right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Up next, in the 2024 race for the Republican nomination, the field is growing. Former Vice President Mike Pence is now expected to announce on Wednesday with a video and a speech in Iowa, we are told. Later that evening, Pence will join CNN for a Town Hall at 09:00 p.m. That's going to air live from Des Moines and will be hosted by Dana Bash. This also comes as sources say that the former New Jersey governor and 2016 Presidential Candidate Chris Christie will announce his candidacy Tuesday in New Hampshire.

[22:55:00]

Christie has a reputation, of course, for being an in-your-face debater last election cycle back in 2016. Senator Marco Rubio found that out when Christie's single handedly ended his shot at the nomination during this debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have not been involved in a consequential decision where you had to be held accountable. You just simply haven't. I want the people at home to think about this. That's what Washington D.C. does. The drive by shot at the beginning with incorrect and incomplete information and then the memorized 25 second speech that is exactly what his advisors gave.

See, Marco -- Marco, the thing is this when you're President of the United States, when you're a governor of a state, the memorized 32nd speech where you talk about how a great America is at the end of it doesn't solve one problem for one person.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This notion that Barack Obama doesn't know what he's doing is just not true.

CHRISTIE: There it is.

RUBIO: He knows exactly what he's --

CHRISTIE: There it is, to memorize 25 second speech.

RUBIO: Well, that's the reason why this campaign --

CHRISTIE: You know what the shame is?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get into this.

CHRISTIE: You know what the shame is, Marco? The shame is that you would actually criticize somebody for showing up to work, plowing the streets, getting the trains run back on time, when you've never been responsible for that in your entire life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: A lot of laughs here in the room as we all watch that clip from both sides of the table. I should note, Scott, though, Chris Christie is going to be getting in the race. He has talked about giving it to Trump on the debate stage, saying that he feels like he's one of the only people who could really engage with the former President. Is there a space for him? I don't want to say is there a lane for him, but what does a Chris Christie run in 2024 look like?

JENNINGS: Well, he needs Donald Trump to show up at the debate, right? I mean, that's the thing. Will he ever actually be on stage? We had some conversation about that earlier. I don't know the answer to that question. I wouldn't necessarily want to be up there with him because he obviously takes great pleasure in gutting his enemies on a debate stage and really anywhere else.

He is the ultimate pugilist of the Republican Party. And it's quite comfortable. A lot of people aren't comfortable with confrontation. This man thrives on confrontation. Not just that moment. Go back to when he was governor. He was having those town hall meetings and taking on the Teachers Unions. He thrives on it. So he'll bring, I think, the most comfortable confrontation with Trump.

The question is, is he still a credible messenger for average Republicans? And I don't know if we know that yet, but we're going to find out.

GODFREY: I don't think that these campaigns, while I think Governor Christie did a great job during his time in office. These campaigns need to be about more than just vanity projects or things we do when we're bored.

COLLINS: Do you think Chris Christie is just running because he's bored?

GODFREY: I don't know. I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

GODFREY: I mean, running just to attack another candidate is not, you know, as substantive as we'd like.

COLLINS: I would like that would be one of his strongest points.

GRIFFIN: But I would like to respectfully disagree with my new friend here. Listen, I think Chris Christie is running as a kamikaze pilot to take out Donald Trump. His unfavorabilities in the Republican Party are sky high. This man has no shot at being the nominee or the president. But he knows Donald Trump. It's personal with him. He was in his debate trap in the West Wing. He knows how to defeat him.

SELLERS: I'm with you. This is a conspiracy. I'm with you. It's a conspiracy theory. I think that some donors got together and said, look, your job is single handedly to do one thing. You go skin Donald Trump. And Chris Christie said, I'm not busy. I got you.

GRIFFIN: I mean, there is something to that, though. I've been waiting for someone to take a heavy-handed punch, not physically at Donald Trump, because we have -- we're not about his fitness. We're not talking about his efforts to overturn the election. Asa Hutchinson is the closest, and it's very, very mild. There is a lane for him. I am here for it.

JENNINGS: But Donald Trump --

AXELROD: You know, just don't discount what James Carville once said about running for president. He said it's like sex. You don't just do it once and forget about. OK. So, I think that -- are we still on?

SELLERS: Yes. It is 11:00 o'clock.

AXELROD: Thank you. No, I mean think he really, genuinely would like to be President of the United States and thinks he'd be good at it.

The other thing I'd say is I'd be worried a little bit if I were DeSantis being on the same stage with him as well. Because I think he would be tough on him as well.

STEWART: I don't know how to follow up that statement that he just said.

AXELROD: Which one?

STEWART: James Carville, "Look, Chris Christie is unapologetic in your face." That's the way he has been. He takes, you know, holds no prisoners. He is going to enter this race like a bull in a China shop, and he is going to kick and kick and kick. Donald Trump mostly, DeSantis, some more than likely, but he's not afraid to be the person to do this because he knows that other people might be holding back and might have reservations, because the key is to attack Donald Trump without alienating his base. At this stage of the game, Chris Christie could care less about that. He just wants to go after Donald Trump.

GODFREY: But let's not drown out the other voices who actually have a shot at the nomination.

GRIFFIN: He's clearing the lane for him on this mission.

COLLINS: There's going to be a lot of voices on.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: We'll see if your conspiracy plays out. Thank you all for joining me tonight. That was great analysis of this town hall. Thank you all for joining us tonight. And encore of that Republican Presidential town hall with Nikki Haley if you missed it is next. Thanks so much.