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CNN Live Event/Special
Chris Christie Delivers Blistering Rebuke Of Rival Trump; Christie: Trump's Second Term Would Be "Worse"; Christie Makes Case To Voters After Jumping Into Presidential Race; Trump Arrives At Florida Golf Club Ahead Of Arrest; Christie On Guns: No Sign There's A Federal Solution; Trump Scheduled To Be Arraigned Tomorrow; Trump Hours Away From Second Arrest In Weeks. Aired 9:35-11p ET
Aired June 12, 2023 - 21:35 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:35:00]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Watching Republican presidential candidate, Chris Christie, the former Governor of New Jersey, take his 2024 message, to voters.
In our live CNN Town Hall, the former Governor making headlines, in multiple fronts, but particularly with his rather blistering rebuke, of Donald Trump, on the eve of the former President's arraignment, on federal criminal charges.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Jake, it was absolutely that, Chris Christie describing the ex-president as angry, vengeful, someone who doesn't give a damn, about the American people. He talked about his losing record, "Loser, loser, loser," he said. He also took on his party, for blaming the DOJ, and not in Trump himself.
The former governor also making news on division in politics, the war in Ukraine, abortion, and obviously, Jake, so much more in that 90- minute Town Hall.
TAPPER: Let's break it all down with the group I have with me here.
Dana Bash, starting with you, what strikes you the most?
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Chris Christie got into this race, saying that the only way, to beat the front-runner, is not to tiptoe around him, but to go through him, to try to hit him head-on.
Saying that, from the experience that he's had, knowing him, for 22 years, the experience of running against him, and not faring well in 2016, and then really helping him a lot, during his presidency.
TAPPER: Helping Trump a lot.
BASH: Helping Trump a lot.
TAPPER: Yes, absolutely.
BASH: And then, as Erin said, tonight, you heard the terms that he knew that would get under Donald Trump's skin. "Loser, loser, loser," "Child," "Vanity run amok," those kinds of things were clearly deliberate in order to try to egg Donald Trump on, not just tear him down, which is his primary goal, but to try to get under his skin.
TAPPER: Yes. John, is there a political appetite for any of this?
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: If he can somehow bend the arc of the Republican Party, back to where it used to be, even then some people might say, "Are you conservative enough? Are you from the Northeast?" But you heard sort of -- the tough part is, is that a primary message.
Number one, they played -- when a voter brought it up, Anderson played the clip. Chris Christie said he got in the race. He got motivated because of that 2:30 in the morning on election night, Donald Trump at the White House, saying the election was stolen.
Nobody knew. We were all here still, we were all still working. Joe Biden couldn't claim victory then, nor could Donald Trump. Nobody could. They hadn't finished counting votes.
TAPPER: Right.
KING: They hadn't even finished counting votes. And Donald Trump said "The election was stolen from me."
He said -- he looked, and he said, "I beg you to think about this," to Republican voters. Six in 10 Republicans still think the election was stolen. He said that's a "Child. I beg you to think about this."
Why do Republicans still like Trump? Even Republicans who aren't going to vote for Trump in the primary still like Trump. So, he's trying to shake them, if you will. That was one thing.
The other thing they said, "What is your calling card in this race? What makes you different from everybody else?"
"I governed in a Blue state." He talked about getting in a room and compromising. He said, "Let's get back to listening to each other again. Let's have reasonable compromises, commonsense solutions." Can you tell a primary electorate that wants to shake things up, stir things up, that is in combat mode?
Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis don't talk a lot about compromise, don't talk a lot about conciliation, don't talk a lot about let's split the difference and get a good deal. So, to get that in today's Republican Party, he's going to have to change a lot of minds about what they think the race is about.
TAPPER: And Abby Phillip, even -- remember, these are Republican primary and caucus voters.
Chris Christie is a gun guy. Chris Christie is anti-abortion. He didn't lean into either of those issues at all. If you were a pro-gun or pro-life voter, he didn't give you a reason, to vote for him. He certainly didn't say anything that would make you think that he wasn't on your side, but he wasn't very aggressive on. ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is an interesting point that on those, let's call them culture war issues, he didn't really lean in that much. But I did think it was notable that he was coming at Trump, from the right.
TAPPER: Yes.
PHILLIP: He said "Trump didn't bring down the deficit. Trump didn't bring an immigration bill to the floor."
[21:40:00]
I think he understands that you do have to go through Trump, but you can't do it from the left. You can't even really do it from the center. You have to be somewhere to his right.
And I did see him trying to make those arguments to Republican voters that "This guy is just not the conservative that you think he is," perhaps. Whether that will work as an argument, I think it has not worked historically, in a Republican primary, because I think there's a lot of personality at stake, when it comes to Trump.
The other thing about Christie that you cannot ignore? I've seen Christie in New Hampshire, in front of voters. He is very natural and comfortable in that setting. And he understands how to navigate these questions, and get to the heart of the question.
And I think you saw someone, just like Nikki Haley, in some ways, who's very practiced, very rehearsed. This is not their first rodeo. And when you ask the question, who is going to be willing on a debate stage to do that, not just in front of voters, but to Donald Trump's face? I think you can see Christie being able to do that.
TAPPER: And Jamie, one of the things that's interesting also, in terms of the criticisms that he gave of President Trump, which were numerous and frequent, was he basically called him incompetent, on the issue of immigration.
Donald Trump didn't offer one piece of legislation that passed, on immigration. Period. Now, he's blaming Joe Biden.
Calling him incompetent, I think we bother Donald Trump, more than calling him vain. I don't think calling him vain bothers Donald Trump at all.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: But --
BASH: Loser is the one that --
TAPPER: "Loser, loser, loser," absolutely.
GANGEL: Loser, there is no --
BASH: Every time.
TAPPER: I think he likes being called vain, but anyway. BASH: Yes.
GANGEL: "Loser, loser, loser" came out early, and repeatedly.
Look, Chris Christie is a very talented communicator. And this is very much, I think, the Chris Christie, we knew, and saw, before he supported Donald Trump. He has said he has nothing to lose here. And the question, I think, is going to be to Dana's point, he's out there to drive Donald Trump nuts, plain and simple.
Will it resonate with Republican voters? And to your point, when he talked about policy, being a governor in a Blue state? "I did this. I accomplished that," will that resonate with Republican voters?
TAPPER: Elie, he said that he thought it was possible that the trial of Donald Trump, in Florida, could be going on, this winter, as soon as this winter, because of the rocket docket down there. You can request a speedy trial, if so.
Do you agree with that?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY: It's possible. But I think it's unlikely.
Look, we both have experience, Chris Christie, and I, as federal prosecutors. I think that's awfully optimistic to think that you could get a case with this much political dimension to it, with this much complexity, tried five months from now.
I mean, really, the defendant is the one who controls when this case goes to trial. The defendant is the one with the constitutional rights, and the need to prepare himself.
And I think what we saw tonight, though, is Chris Christie trying to prosecute the case against Donald Trump.
Last week, when Chris Christie declared his candidacy, and then about 24 hours later, the Trump indictment news dropped? I thought, "Boy, bad break for Chris Christie. He just got wiped off the front page."
But now, I think it's actually a good break, because he sees it on this indictment, to state the case, against Donald Trump, both the literal case, United States versus Donald Trump, on the documents, but also the broader case of "I'm the only one who sees this thing clearly."
You see so many other Republicans, equivocating, and "Let's wait and see." And Chris Christie just reads this indictment, reacts like many of us do, of "This is really damning." And I think it's, he's trying to differentiate himself along those lines.
TAPPER: There, one of the things he said? And I want the team, in the control room, to prepare sound one (ph), if possible. He painted a picture, John, and Dana, of what a second Trump term would look like. And I thought this was potentially resonant with voters, even voters who agree with Donald Trump, who like Donald Trump. Let's play that sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: He's so angry now. He's angry, and he's vengeful, and he's said, "I will be your retribution."
Well, I don't think -- I don't want him to be my retribution. I don't need him to do that. And I don't think anybody in America needs it either. He wants to be retribution for himself. I am convinced that if he goes back to the White House, that the next four years will all be about him just settling scores.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: I mean, that's not -- that's not a crazy prediction.
KING: No, it's not, because we know how Donald Trump works, and just if you go to Truth Social, or lived through the Trump administration, when we had it.
The question is how big of an audience does he have, especially when it is Donald Trump, right now, right now, seven months till anybody votes. But it is Donald Trump far and away in the lead. Ron DeSantis, with a solid second, but well behind Trump, essentially half Trump or less, in most polls, and then everybody else, right?
So, during this, I was texting around, to a few people, out in the States, these states, in New Hampshire. "Christie has a bit of traction here, but no real base. But we like the fact that he's kicking Trump. But Trump gets no more than he has now."
[21:45:00]
Trump has 40 percent now, right? Trump has 40 percent now. There are nine other candidates in the race.
So, and a lot of people think Trump will not go up that Trump's challenge is to hold what he's got. He was indicted. He's going to be arraigned tomorrow. We're going to see those pictures, the trial, who knows, probably a second indictment in New York.
But Trump's about 40 percent, in New Hampshire, right now. Some polls, a little higher, some polls, a little low, so I put him at 40.
Texting with somebody, in Iowa, "I wish Chris Christie would come here, because he gets Trump into a mud fight." "Would you support him?" "Oh, no, absolutely not," about Chris Christie, this is a more social conservative activist, in Iowa, but an anti-Trump person. They -- the people who don't like Trump see Christie's value as hurting Trump. They don't see Christie as somebody who can beat him.
Now, nobody votes for seven months. We live in volatile times. It's just hard, because the last thing I'll say is I asked a Republican pollster, is that what people want? He says "About half of our base still is in an angry mood itself," that the base is angry about their own grievances.
BASH: I think that you're right that the term "Vanity run amok" won't necessarily be the most hurtful thing that Donald Trump heard, out of Chris Christie's mouth.
But his audience is primarily, in addition to him, the Republican electorate, and that fit into the larger theme, about "This is not his opponents' fault. This is him. Blame him," he said many times, "Blame him. He's putting the country through this," he said, and then going on later to say to the other candidates, in the race, "Say his name, say his name him," making a Harry Potter reference.
And that really is a main goal of the Christie candidacy. It is to try to prosecute the case, the broader case, against Donald Trump in a way that he believes only he can do, for lots of reasons.
KING: Right. And to consolidate the anti-Trump forces.
BASH: Right.
KING: "I'm better than that. You want one person to take on Trump? I'm better than that."
TAPPER: Yes, interesting.
All right, standby, everyone.
Erin?
BURNETT: Jake.
And here, Matt Mowers, Advisor to Chris Christie in 2016, you know him well. You helped him prepare for this.
One thing he said I thought was interesting, to this point, of they're talking about how he's going to prosecute the case. Christie said, "I've known him 22 years. The only thing he understands is force."
MATT MOWERS, CHRIS CHRISTIE ADVISOR IN 2016, FORMER TRUMP STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL, BATTLE GROUND STATE DIRECTOR, TRUMP/PENCE 2016: Well, anyone who's watched Donald Trump, over his entire career can agree with that statement from Chris Christie.
And I got to tell you, having been to probably over 100 Chris Christie Town Halls, my life, both in New Jersey and in New Hampshire, including that one in Irvington, he was talking about?
BURNETT: That he was talking about, yes.
MOWERS: That was vintage Christie, right? It was the guy, who was taking on some uncomfortable truths. He was willing to say things that the Republican base doesn't necessarily agree with him 100 percent on, but he's doing it in his own style.
He got back to talk about his record as a Blue state governor. He got back to talk about his record as a prosecutor, prosecuting 130 politicians.
BURNETT: Right.
MOWERS: And now taking on one more prosecution, potentially, on a debate stage, come August.
BURNETT: So, Alyssa, the argument he was trying to make, right, when he went on, I think, is interesting. Dana just mentioned the "Voldemort" reference.
He said, "You're not going to win against somebody, if you're not going to say their name," that that isn't a winning strategy, and when he was trying to walk a line, it felt like yes, right, the whole time, between taking on Trump, and trying to talk about other policy issues.
But did he make the case against the rest of the field and how they're handling Trump?
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, I'm going to make an early prediction that if that kind of a performance continues, Chris Christie will 100 percent end up on the debate stage.
That was one of the most powerful points he's made, was not just the case against Trump, but how the only way through Trump -- the only way to beat Trump is through him. And the fact that candidates are dancing around him is not a winning strategy. I think he said that incredibly effectively. He came to play when it was -- when he was talking about Donald Trump.
On the policy issues, he had some really winning -- some strong moments, I would say. I think that he showed some grace when he was talking about the Second Amendment, though he did not budge on really any sort of changes, whether it would have been red flag laws.
BURNETT: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: That to me signals he's thinking about New Hampshire, where really, you don't even talk about anything other than the Second Amendment.
He had some nuance on abortion. We're talking of whole of child care, not just talking about a child at the womb.
So, you see kind of these muscles, he hasn't flexed in a while, from 2016, talking policy. But the most effective part of Chris Christie is taking on Donald Trump.
BURNETT: It's interesting to the point you say though, Scott, one thing I thought he was asked, by Anderson, "What defines you?" OK? First was fiscal restraint. Second was a strong social safety net. And for just, and now, of course, he went on talking about school choice and more conservative things.
But in the Republican base right now, those are not -- strong social safety net would be anathema, in terms of the way it's certainly in someone like Trump, it's just not what you hear about.
SCOTT JENNINGS, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO MITCH MCCONNELL: Well, I don't know. I mean, if you consider Social Security and Medicare to be a strong social safety net. I mean, obviously one of Trumps calling cards against DeSantis is --
BURNETT: Yes. But if you say, "I'm not going to cut your Social Security," and he did make that argument, but he said strong social safety net.
JENNINGS: Yes.
BURNETT: He didn't stumble.
JENNINGS: Yes.
As I watched him tonight, I was thinking this is a governor versus the cultural zeitgeist of the Republican Party. Governors talk about their terms, in terms of "What I did." You heard him say it numerous times. "I did that. I've been there. I've done that." He talked about the things he accomplished.
He never really dipped in to the whole cultural arguments. Even when he got topics, like abortion, and guns, and others, he didn't make strident commentary.
BURNETT: Yes.
JENNINGS: He just stayed away from it.
[21:50:00]
The quote that stuck with me was, "We can either fight to get headlines, or we can fight to get to an end." That's what a governor would say.
Now, the question is, is the mood of the Republican Party, is it in search of ends, or is it in search of people, who just want to fight, for the sake of fighting because they feel surrounded on all these cultural issues?
BURNETT: Yes.
JENNINGS: I would say I think this candidacy is built for one group of people. In the ABC News poll, this weekend, 31 percent of Americans said they had a favorable view of Trump and Biden. 70 percent of Americans say they do not want this rematch. This candidacy is built for the double disapproval. Now, there's no primary for the double disapproval.
BURNETT: No. That well that's the --
JENNINGS: And that's his problem. But that -- but if you were in that camp --
BURNETT: Yes, right. JENNINGS: -- and watch that tonight? You'd be all over it.
BURNETT: Van, it's interesting to something he just said. I didn't hear about drag queens.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: That's right.
BURNETT: I didn't hear about trans athletes.
JONES: That's right.
BURNETT: I didn't hear about Bud Light. I didn't hear about Target.
I mean, it went, now, and I think about it, I was like, "Whoa, I can't believe I didn't hear those things," in a Republican Town Hall.
JONES: Chris Christie, tonight, was a sane -- was a harbor for sane politics. Not just Republicans. I think for the country. That was a sane dude, who's not scared of a cult leader, or anybody else. I'd never vote for him.
But you may be wrong. You said there's not a primary for the double disappointed. We don't know who's going to show up, in the primary. If we don't have a primary, on our side, there might be a lot of people who've never voted a primary before, who say "I don't want Trump. I don't want Biden and that could be their guys."
Listen, I'm not just interested in what he said about Donald Trump. He said stuff about people, who are addicted to drugs. That was powerful. He talked about actual people.
Now listen, if that guy gets a nomination, I think Democrats are going to have to eat our Wheaties. This was a very important moment. There is at least now an option, a tough guy, a fighter. But he defined fighting as fighting for you, not fighting for headlines. I thought it was the same thing that struck me and Scott.
BURNETT: Paul.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The most important thing is he's a guy, who has a message. And I think Van's right. Message, I thought it was just going to be "I'm going to take on Trump." Nobody likes that more than me. I love that stuff, OK? This was much smarter than me, though.
BURNETT: You're very self-aware.
BEGALA: I am. I'm an idiot. This is why I'm sitting here, instead of running for president.
BURNETT: Yes, right.
BEGALA: He didn't just say "Trump's a pig. I hate Trump." He said, "I'm a fighter for you."
JONES: Yes.
BEGALA: See, the Democrats -- I wrote a whole book about this. I was one of them, who got this wrong, when he ran against Hillary. I was so appalled by Trump's character, which is he's like the Muhammad Ali of evil, in my eyes, OK, like the biggest ever. But that doesn't move voters.
Christie made it about you. He said "I'm going to be a fighter for you. Donald fights for himself." And this -- I hope Joe Biden was watching. Because this -- I think Biden did that. That's why he won.
The way to take on Trump is not simply to attack Trump's character. It's certainly not to attack Trump's voters. Real tired of hearing people running them down. Is to say to those voters, he has failed you.
Hey, 80 -- I looked it up. 82 counties with the highest opioid addiction, 75 of them voted for Trump. OK? Eight of the 10 states with the highest murder rates voted for Trump. Counties that voted for Trump have murder rates 12 percent higher. "He has failed Red America. He has failed to Trump America." This is what Christie is getting at. I think he is on his way to a really powerful way, to take on Trump.
BURNETT: He got a question, from the woman, in South Carolina, one of the first questions that Anderson took, who had brought up the baby formula issues that she was a Trump voter. She's talking about making ends meet, and how difficult it is, while the U.S. is sending all this money to Ukraine.
His answer there was interesting. It's a Trump voter. He said, "A great country should be able to do both."
Now, is that a message that can resonate, in the GOP, right now, where this, Ukraine, in a sense, has become a litmus test, right, and this issue of "Well, that money isn't as well spent."
He answered that very specifically, "A great country to be able to do both."
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, taking a step back, that was a theme, in other aspects as well, right, the idea of walking and chewing gum at the same time?
BURNETT: Right.
COATES: One ought to be able to criticize, when there is a perception of the Department of Justice, deciding to prosecute one case over the other, whether there's a discussion about being critical of funding, or congressional appropriations, or beyond, or the idea of trying to battle between what is going to be prudent commonsense, gun control law and a right versus a need. He addressed all that thematically.
What I appreciated about it was the idea, especially when it came to the prosecution, in this matter, the silence that he was critical of, of his Republican colleagues. You can on the one hand, be critical of decisions not to prosecute, say, a Hillary Clinton, or prosecute, for him --
BURNETT: Right.
COATES: -- a James Comey or otherwise, and at the same time recognize the validity of a complaint and an indictment.
[21:55:00]
I think that's what was really missing for a lot of people because of course, the person that's going to be the President of the United States is going to be the head of the Executive branch. A civics lesson? Their role is to enforce the law.
And so, if you are going to shy away from addressing a violation of the law, addressing how it should be enforced, and ignoring the org chart that includes the FBI? Remember, he wanted to keep Director Wray.
BURNETT: Yes.
COATES: That was surprising, to think about that. The idea of talking about weaponization? "No, I don't think Biden's really doing that."
But here's what's going on. If you're not going to go against Trump, forget Trump, but to support your own branch of government, and the credibility that it's supposed to have? I don't see how you're going to get very far in the office itself, let alone the polls.
BURNETT: Yes.
FARAH GRIFFIN: And one other key point that he made, which I think is one of the kind of pool quotes from tonight, "Loser, loser, loser," Donald Trump has not won anything since 2016.
And he made the point that Independents opted into voting for him in 2016, like, "Let's give this a gamble." But they haven't since. In the part -- my party is bleeding them, and we're not putting up candidates, who are reaching to appeal them.
I think you heard him sending a message. He said something interesting that seemed to allude to maybe a billionaire's tax, when he was asked about having the wealthy pay more, which seemed a little out of step with a lot of conservative norms. But it goes back to your point about a strong social safety net.
So, I think there's a play to Independents that he's doing, and he's reminding folks, "Donald Trump hasn't won anything."
BURNETT: And a quick final word to you, Matt, here. Is that the main focus, right now, even though obviously, you talk about a primary?
MOWERS: Sure.
BURNETT: Maybe betting on what you're betting on that you're going to see these voters come out, but that this is about going for those Independents? MOWERS: Well, look, I know there's a couple Iowa voters in there. That's probably about as close as he's going to get to an Iowa voter in this election, right? That was a tailor-made message, for New Hampshire Independents --
BURNETT: Yes.
MOWERS: -- who can (ph) participate in open primary process, not to mention Democrats.
As of right now, Joe Biden's not necessarily going to be on the ballot, in the New Hampshire primary, come January or February next year. They're going to be looking for a home, to express their disappointment, with the direction of the country, or possibly even Donald Trump.
Chris Christie gave them a reason, possibly, participate, in the Republican primary, and do that.
BURNETT: All right. All stay with me please. Much more to come on our coverage tonight, including an in-depth fact-check of what Christie told the voters, tonight.
Plus, Donald Trump is now in Florida. Of course, he will be arrested and arraigned, again, tomorrow. We have some new reporting coming up.
We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:00:00]
TAPPER: Good evening. I'm Jake Tapper alongside Erin Burnett. Our special coverage continues now of tonight's main event, our CNN town hall with Chris Christie, the former New Jersey governor. We're also going to have the very latest on the preparations for tomorrow's second arrest of former President Donald Trump.
BURNETT: Let's go to the biggest headlines from one of his rivals this evening, the former governor, Christie, who is really trying and making it very clear that he thinks that the way to beat Trump is to go straight at him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ): He's angry and he's vengeful, and he said I am convinced that if he goes back to the White House, that the next four years will all be about him and just settling scores.
He has shown himself, and I think most particularly in his post- presidency, to be completely self-centered, completely self-consumed and doesn't give a dam about the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: Governor Christie also offered his predictions on the U.S. government's case against Donald John Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: There will guarantee be a lot more. When you're a prosecutor, you never put every card on the table.
Specifically, I think there are going to be a lot of witnesses who actually worked for Donald Trump that are now going to be testifying against.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: CNN Anchor Kaitlan Collins is in Miami, Florida, ahead of Trump's court appearance tomorrow. Kaitlan, let's focus on Christie's attacks. What's your takeaway?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: I think what struck me, Jake, is just how personal his criticism of the former president was. Obviously, he is one of about two GOP candidates for president who are running for the Republican primary nomination that have been outright critical of what happened here and of this indictment after it was unsealed last week.
But tonight, Chris Christie took this indictment and what Republicans have been saying, blaming it on the Justice Department, blaming it on President Biden, claiming there is this two-tier justice system, and he said, no, he said that's wrong. He said this has something to do with Trump, putting himself before the country, and making it all about Trump, the man itself, not just Trump, the Republican frontrunner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: He's saying I'm more important than the country. These are my papers. He saw in the indictment his employees were scared. He always call them his boxes, his boxes, he wants his boxes near him. He flew the boxes up to New Jersey for summer vacation. What is this? Like they're a family member? I mean, seriously, I got my boxes with me.
And let me ask you a question, what exactly was he doing with them? Did someone remind him he's not the president anymore? You don't need these things anymore. This is vanity run amok, Anderson, run amok, ego run amok. And he's now going to put this country through this, when we did not have to go through it. Everyone is blaming the prosecutors. He did it. It's his conduct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: And you can hear him there, Jake. He's almost mocking Trump. And for Chris Christie to do that, who's obviously been a very outspoken critic of Trump lately, is not surprising. But when you look at the entirety of their relationship, it certainly is. Obviously, I covered Trump on the campaign trail the first time around. Christie dropped out, endorsed Trump, was boosting him on the campaign trail. I was there in 2020, when Christie was inside the White House, helping Trump prepare for the debates against President Biden.
And then tonight, obviously, he's running against him for this nomination, but offering a very fierce criticism and essentially making fun of Trump for taking the boxes and having this obsession with him, an obsession that is clear when you read the indictment and how many times Trump referred to them, you know, as my boxes. But, certainly a much sharper criticism than you're going to see from anyone else in the Republican field.
TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, we'll see you again in a few minutes. Erin?
BURNETT: All right, Jake. Well, let's take a look at what Chris Christie did on the facts, right? Fact-checking so crucial. So, town hall fact-check tonight, CNN's Tom Foreman, who watched it all. And so, Tom, what did Christie have to say about the investigation into Trump's 2016 campaign and the Russia probe, as we try to break down these facts?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Christie said from the get-go that he called accusations of the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians garbage, and he says the evidence backed his position, listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: I was involved in that campaign in 2016 with Donald Trump. Let me tell you something. I can guarantee there was no colluding going on. They're trying to figure out how to get from New York to Wisconsin, okay? They were not -- colluding with the Russians was the last thing they were thinking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Well, as a political ally at the time of Trump, Christie came to Trump's defense many, many times, including on Russia. However, Christie also specifically rejected Trump's claim that the Russia probe was a witch hunt.
[22:05:01]
He said, the degree of Russian meddling in the election, at one point, he said, was absolutely chilling. And we should note, the Mueller report found there were attempts in 2016 at collusion between the Russians and the Trump campaign, and Trump aides were, quote, receptive to some offers, but no one was charged with conspiracy. So, he veered a little bit there.
Overall, he stuck generally to the facts. He let them speak for themselves throughout the evening, Erin, did not take as many flights of fancy we sometimes seen political meetings.
BURNETT: No, no, he didn't. All right, Tom Foreman, thanks.
Jake, it was interesting, even on the point when he was talking about debt, right, he was like, well, Obama increased the debt and then Trump increased it more. I mean, I did notice several points where he made a point of using facts, and he did use them accurately.
TAPPER: Yes, he sure did. Let's talk about this with my panel, Christie took aim at both Trump and Biden on concerns that either one of them would become the oldest person ever elected president. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: If those two people are the nominees, they are going to be a combined 160 years old on Election Day. I'm sorry, guys, nobody beats father time. Nobody does. I'm different than I was when I first got into office 13 years ago, okay? I'm different, I feel it. And I cannot imagine 20 years from now, 22 years from now when I'm 60 years year old, at 82, being president of the United States?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: My panel is back. And, John, he referred to both Biden and Trump as being passed there's sell-by dates.
KING: And he said one of his children's called him ageist, and he joked that he had to look it up. I suspect he knew what it meant.
Look, it's interesting, right? So, he said Joe Biden was a big spender, he said Joe Biden, in his view, is too old. He had a number of other policy differences with Joe Biden all the way, with Joe Biden on Ukraine, which is not a tough sell to the Republican primary election. So, what does he do in there?
Alyssa, in the last conversation, I think, he made a smart point about New Hampshire, undeclared, meaning independent voters can vote. And a Democrat can vote. It's very rare, people talk about this all the time. They always clock out the strategy, I'm going to get people in the other party to cross over and vote for me, as many people at this table tend to do it.
But for an undeclared, people in the middle, sometimes they do go to the competitive side, right? Is their competitive race? He's running a one state campaign. It's New Hampshire, just like you have Mike Pence and Jim Scott out in Iowa and others. But it either takes off there or where are you going to go?
He is going to go to New Hampshire where he is just trying to get -- it's a more libertarian state, a little less Republican, more libertarian, at least the history was. It's become a Trumpy state but he's just trying to find a spot. And so I think the idea that you're done with Donald Trump, the criticisms of Biden, if you're the nominee, though, any Republican is going to say, you heard about Biden tonight from him, with a possible exception of Ukraine. But is that an effort to try and get a couple extra votes New Hampshire because that's as one play?
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, he's not wrong about the age issue being a factor on both the Republican and on the Democratic side. But I think in his party, the biggest issue is actually grievance. And the point that he made about whether or not Republicans want Trump running on his own grievances, that also might be true.
But I think Trump is making the argument to Republican voters that my grievances are your grievances, that they're coming after me and they're going to come after you next. And you have to pierce that with Republican voters in order to have credibility. And I'm not sure that Christie has done that just yet.
And Trump is not the only one running on grievance. DeSantis is also running on a version of grievance politics in a more kind of professionalized manner, talking about, you know, the power of the state and conservatives being marginalized in the culture. But Christie would need to figure out how to tap into that.
And I do think that may have been nothing missing tonight, was how does he speak to those voters? And it's probably more than 50 percent of the Republican Party for whom that message is very resonant.
GANGEL: I think right now, yes, he mentioned Biden, but he really didn't mention other Republicans. I think Chris Christie right now is the Van Jones never Trump candidate. The Republicans I heard from today, tonight, who liked him are all, I would say, never Trumpers. I'm voting Republican again for Chris Christie. I agree with everything he says. Christie was great. Christie is my guy. Those three Republicans, they're from all over the country, but they all have one thing in common, they're never Trumpers.
TAPPER: Right.
KING: They've had to move to New Hampshire so that he's on the ballot, still in the race.
PHILLIP: And there are not enough never Trumpers to win this election.
TAPPER: So, Elie, one thing that is interesting is that Christie kind of explained his theory of the case as to why Trump kept those classified documents, and it had to do with, if you read between the lines and also listen to his words, the fact that Donald Trump kind of has lived in denial over the past few years that he lost to Joe Biden.
[22:10:10]
Let's run that clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: This is vanity run amok, Anderson, run amok, ego run amok. And he's now going to put this country through this when we didn't have to go through it.
He cannot live with the fact that he lost Joe Biden. He can't live with it. And, look, I watched the way Joe Biden is performing, I would be pretty bummed out too if I lost to Joe Biden. But the fact is he did, and he wants to continue to pretend he's president. He wants the trappings of the presidency around him. And I think one of those trappings is these documents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So, if I'm hearing him correctly, he seems to be leaning into the idea that Donald Trump's whole world of denial, where he pretends he didn't lose and that the election was stolen also had to do with the fact that he had all these documents in his showing them off to people, he was pretending he was -- it's basically cosplay.
HONIG: Yes. It's an interesting bit a psychoanalysis by Chris Christie that I actually happen to agree with it. When you read the indictment, there is not some great evil plan that Donald Trump has with these documents. He takes them, he moves them around from the stage to the bathroom to Bedminster. He does deploy them, those two instances we know about --
TAPPER: Where he's showing off?
HONIG: Yes, he's showing off, and he's trying to get them to shape the coverage that they're giving a little bit in his favor. But that's enough. I mean, that's certainly enough in terms of the technical criminal legal sense. It makes it a little harder for prosecutors to stand up in front of a jury, because what the defense lawyers are going to say, what's the grand plan here, some conspiracy between Trump and his valet, Walt Nauta, to move documents into the shower? Who cares?
Now, again, technically meets the legal definition, but that is an interesting nuance of the case. And I do think that's the best explanation.
One other thing about Chris Christie, he was very strong tonight, and he has been throughout his career and standing up for the independents and the prosecutors. He was one wants. And he had a section tonight when he said something like, what's with constantly blaming prosecutors and this sort of grievance politics? How about you start with a person who did wrong?
And I can tell you, Chris Christie did that throughout his career. I was head of criminal justice in New Jersey when he was governor of the state, and there were many times when the media would call upon us at the A.G.'s office, this person needs to be prosecuted. And they would ask then-Governor Christie, what do you think, should the A.G.'s office we look at this person? And he would always say the same thing, similar to what he said tonight. He would say, I was a prosecutor. The last thing any prosecutor needs or wants is politicians getting involved.
TAPPER: Well, it's interesting, John King, also one of things he said, first of all, Chris Wray, the director of the FBI, is under fire from Republicans who are alleging that the FBI and the Department of Justice are being weaponized against Republicans, even though Chris Wray was appointed by Donald Trump. Chris Wray was also Chris Christie's lawyer drink bridgegate, and he said he would keep him in that job, which is also, again, not what the base perhaps wants to hear.
KING: Right. That was the one time he took direct disagreement with Governor DeSantis, because questions asked in the context, DeSantis said he would fire him on day one. And he said he would not. He said he would keep him there.
TAPPER: He didn't take a shot at DeSantis, though?
KING: He did not. He just said we disagree, agree to disagree, and moved on. And he said he would keep him there unless he found out something when he was president that he had done something wrong, but he thought that he was a good guy. And he did note, you'll notice he went on, he was smart enough, I guess, for the Republican base to say he has cleaned out all the leadership that was there of James Comey, who is anathema to the Republican base, is gone. But, again, it sounds like a little thing in today's Republican Party. I suspect somebody wax him with it.
TAPPER: Yes. Our live coverage continues in just a moment with much more analysis. Plus, we are, of course, just hours away from the second arrest of Donald Trump. How is he preparing for his arraignment? How are security officials preparing to keep the peace? We'll bring you that story, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:15:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: I feel wholly inadequate giving you that answer, because three my children are sitting there and I have a fourth one out in Chicago, in what is a very dangerous place, it's my oldest daughter right now. And I don't know how I'd put one foot in front of the other if I lost one of them.
And so all I can say to you is that I will do my very best to try to come up with some compromise that can bring all sides together on this that can make it better. And I think the only way you do that is by listening to everybody who is involved and concerned about it and try and find those common threads. And then as a leader, pull those common threads together and come to a solution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That was the former New Jersey governor, Chris Christie, at a town hall a few moments ago talking about gun control, guns, he was talking to a father who lost his son in the Las Vegas shooting.
So, you know, Scott, it was interesting, there was a lot of policy. He had thought a lot about that. It was very interesting on this particular issue, and one other. But, first, let's stick to this one. He did not have an answer. And this is a person who had, of course, an earlier iteration of his career had been for an assault weapons ban. Here, he was making the argument of I don't really know, and I don't think there's anything else the federal government can do.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, he really did not want to lean into some of the culture war topics, guns being one. I mean, what Republicans want to hear, of course, is that you are going to defend the individual right to keep and bear arms at all costs. I mean, that's what most Republican voters want to hear. But he did not want to get into that numerous times tonight, when he got a question from an audience member. He did it with the lady from South Carolina, he did it with that gentlemen. He really leaned into their personal story more than sloganeering.
BURNETT: The empathy of it.
JENNINGS: And, to me, that's the real authentic quality of Chris Christie.
Now, it doesn't make him culture warrior and it doesn't make him a very partisan ideologue, which, in some ways, is in vogue right now, but it does make him engaging, it makes him some serious. And, honestly, it made him seem humbled to me. When a politician looks at you and says, I don't have all the answers, but I'll do my best to get to the most unifying answer I can, that is a pretty humble statement in a world that doesn't really reward that right now.
BURNETT: All right. But what about on the accuracy of this, right, that there camping more down at the federal level? There are things that could be done at the federal level, if you chose to do them at a federal level, whether be about bump stocks or gun show loophole. There are a variety of things.
JONES: Yes, I like that he was willing to let hard things be hard.
[22:20:00]
Abortion is hard. He's willing to let that be hard. Guns are hard. He's willing to let that be hard. But he was ducking. There is more that could be done at the federal level. And, frankly, you know, if you are truly passionate on the question of abortion, there's more that can be done on the federal level there. So, he was breaking with his kind of authentic policies, straight talk role there. But I think he was being authentic and that part, stuff is hard.
COATES: And there is a little bit of nuance to the statement, too, because he tried to make a connection when Anderson spoke about how he had changed his views on, say, the assault weapons ban and beyond, and the question was, when he's 29 years old, why do you need this? And he said that is the wrong question. The question is not about need, it's about the right, and then referenced the Second Amendment, as a point of reference.
Why I think that so important, leads me to think about that, is because that is really the debate. When people are talk about, well, why do you need this? Is it really for hunting or otherwise? That's one conversation that is happening. Then there is the Second Amendment consideration, the Supreme Court, what they're talking, not the need whether right for the preference and what you're able to do. And at its core, I think to unpack that even further, is probably one of the reasons why he did not have the answers, because you're looking ahead to the Supreme Court, looking about what questions are being asked, and whether, societally, we are going to balance this need versus right, and if that's the right question.
BURNETT: Go ahead.
MOWERS: And so I think one of the things he's doing is really trying to bring a three-dimensional aspect to it, right? You have where you stand on the issues, how you are going to act as a leader when you're in the White House.
And it's almost the opposite approach of someone like Ron DeSantis, right? Ron DeSantis and his campaign are saying I want to be most conservative guy on every issue. It doesn't matter what it is, what Donald Trump says, I'm the most conservative guy. But don't worry about personality.
Chris Christie is almost saying the opposite. He's saying, look, I'm with you. I stand by the Second Amendment, I'm personally pro-life, all these things. But let me tell you how I'm going to think as leader and act as leader. That's what was differentiating him tonight from a lot of the other competitors.
BURNETT: Okay. To that point, let's talk about the abortion question, because there was one telling moment there, he said, look, in Oklahoma you can't have an abortion at all, and then he said in New Jersey, his state, they now allow it up to nine months, right?
And he was making the point that he was pro-life but the governor of a state that wasn't, he would support that. Okay, fine. But his point, in a sense, to your point about dock ban, I get that it's complicated. But he's saying until the states figured out and get on the same page, there is nothing that can be done. But the reality, of course, is that you are in a state where a woman in a dire situation may not be able to get an abortion, all right, it doesn't really answer the question.
FARAH GRIFFIN: I saw it in kind of two ways. On the one hand, there's a level of humility, and it's such a stark juxtaposition to I alone can fix it of Donald Trump, this notion of I'm the person who has all the answers. We've worked in the White House. No one has all the answers.
I think he was a little weak or unprepared on the abortion answer. And I think he is going to sharpen up on it, which is it seemed like he was leaning into a sort of a states right issue, that what's right for Oklahoma doesn't have to be for New Jersey, because the answer was around a federal sort of ban.
But, again, this will be one of the defining debates of our time, and certainly of this coming election. And I think that that group he is trying to appeal to and stands to grow with, which is independents and moderates, he's going to have to define a lane in terms of where he is on jobs in the post-Dobbs era.
BURNETT: Yes, and that, PAUL, he did not do that tonight.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No. He is a guy who does not want to live and die on these social issues. He is not a right wing social warrior. You know, Ron DeSantis, to paraphrase Joe Biden, it's his every sentence is a noun, a verb and a woke. Christie doesn't want to live there. And I thought I was refreshing as a Democrat.
And I bet you there are a lot of Republicans who feel that way. And it's kind of like taking on Trump for being too selfish rather than too corrupt. And he did -- he almost had it, when he said Trump I want to be your retribution. The next line has to be I want to be your economic recovery, right, something about you. He was almost saying, he'll get there. I'm sorry to be such a campaign manager but that's where he wanted to get.
And when he was talking to them, Christie has a reputation as a bully. In his town hall meetings in New Jersey, and Matt would know better, but he was famous for like calling people jerks, like teachers who is fighting with.
BURNETT: Yes, oh, yes, I remember some of these sound bites.
BEGALA: So, I was really pleased. You can see the chip go off. He was talking at that poor man.
BURNETT: But in mid answer, it changed, the whole tone changed.
BEGALA: Something happened. And that's great. That shows he's living in the moment. I don't know how anyone can live with that man's pain. And how many politicians can look at him and not feel that pain? So, good for him for making that mid-course correction.
JENNINGS: You know, he said, he said tonight that he's different than he was 13 years ago when he went into office. He did seem to be a mellower version. Because when he came to prominence in the Republican Party, the reason he was so popular for a bit was because he was bashing teachers unions in those town hall meetings. He was, like, confronting them and in those confrontational moments came to define him. But I did not really see that tonight. I saw a very humble person who just wanted to move the country past confrontationalism, which is not his reputation.
[22:25:03]
BURNETT: And one other quick point, Van, I just want to say another thing he said, he was talking about was compromise and the importance of it. He brought up Ronald Reagan, which, he likes to do. But the whole point he was saying is if you get zero, you get zero. But if you get 60 percent of what you want, that's a win and that compromise is not a bad word. And on that, as opposed to say guns or abortion, where he was really lowered to talk about it, he did want to talk about that.
JONES: Well, look, we're in a weird spot when Chris Christie is the unifier in chief. I mean, that's where we're at. Chris Christie is coming down. Let's calm down with all the fist fight and be a (INAUDIBLE). And I think he was playing a paternal role, you know? He was being the dad. He talked about personal responsibility. Trump needs to take personal responsibility. You know, it was interesting. It was not the Chris Christie that I was used to seeing and maybe there is room for someone like him. BURNETT: All right. All stay with us. It is the eve of another historic day, the second surrender of Donald Trump just hours away in Miami. Up next, the major preparations underway and the mounting security concerns and, of course, how the ex-president is spending his final hours before that arraignment. We're live in Miami with some new reporting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TAPPER: And welcome back to CNN special coverage. Former President Donald Trump is now in Miami ahead of his federal court appearance tomorrow. He, of course, faces 37 counts and a federal indictment related to his alleged mishandling of classified documents after leaving office. CNN Anchor Kaitlan Collins is in Miami ahead of Trump's court appearance. And Kaitlan, you have some new reporting this evening about this indictment. Tell us more.
COLLINS: Yeah, Trump of course is here, Jake, earlier. He arrived several hours ago today. He's staying at his Miami resort before that arraignment tomorrow and basically he has spent the day having conversations about adding another lawyer to his legal team as of 10:30PM.
Right now, it is not clear that anyone has been selected to do so. We know at least one of the attorneys that he has been considering adding to the team Benedict Cooney was seen at Trump Doral. That is of course where the former president is staying. It's not clear that he's actually officially decided to add anyone.
And Jake, as you know, he has been searching to add a Florida based attorney to his team even since before two of his top attorneys on this case specifically resigned last Friday. They resigned in part because Trump was pursuing adding another attorney to the team, and they've been the top attorneys who are litigating this.
So, he is down to attorneys who are handling the documents case, still searching for someone else. It's not clear right now that this will be resolved before he actually has that arraignment tomorrow. That's not really seen as a big deal from the people that I've spoken with. Todd Blanch, who is the other attorney that he added to his team just back in April, only about two months ago, is going to be one of the people that you do see going to court with the former president tomorrow.
It remains to be seen who he adds ultimately to the legal team, though. Obviously, you can see, you know, when two people depart the team who've been working on this case, it's been difficult for Trump to find attorneys in the past.
One thing that we did learn, Jake, as well, is it was a week ago from last Friday that I'm told Trump's team got the letter from the Special Counsel Jack Smith informing him that he was indeed a target in this investigation. Obviously, that preceded the indictment of the former president, but when the Justice Department sends those notifications out, which they are not required to do, it does give the person they're sending it to the opportunity to present evidence or come and testify before the grand jury.
I am told that Trump expressed some interest in coming before them and doing that. Ultimately, he did not do so and one of the people I spoke with said they weren't sure how serious he was about that, Jake. Remember he had expressed some interest in doing that in the Manhattan case, as well. But that is kind of the frame of mind as Trump is preparing to go to his second indictment in just a matter of months tomorrow here for that arraignment.
TAPPER: So, Kaitlan, obviously this is not the first time this year that Donald Trump has been arrested and arraigned. We saw it happen in New York with state charges. Obviously, New York and Florida are very different in terms of procedures, in terms of what is open to the public to see, what is not. Walk us through the appearance tomorrow. What should we expect? Do we think there will be a mugshot? Will we see any images of him from inside the courthouse?
COLLINS: It doesn't seem like we're going to see much. We may not even see him actually going into the courthouse. We believe there will be some courtroom sketches, Jake, but it's not going to be, we believe, photos or anything like what we saw last time, where photographers were briefly allowed in as when you saw those historic photos of Trump, of course, in the courtroom. We're not expecting that to happen tomorrow.
Jim Trusty, the attorney who has obviously since lost the team, initially said last week he was not going to be arrested or anything like that because it was a summon for Trump to appear here tomorrow. And so, really, the question is not among his team. What happens tomorrow? Obviously, he'll plead not guilty. It's what happens next because that's when the next date will be set. That's when he could potentially be in front of Judge Cannon, the Trump-appointed judge.
I should note who was appointed by Trump and just the days after he lost the 2020 election. That is what really Trump's legal team and those around him will be looking ahead. It's not really it tomorrow when he's obviously though going to have that historic moment, as you noted, pleading not guilty for the second time in just a matter of months.
TAPPER: All right, Caitlin Collins in Miami outside the courthouse. Thank you so much. Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Jake. Well, of course, what are the security preparations here? Expecting tens of thousands of people, maybe 50,000 people to show up around Trump's court appearance. We just don't know. Federal and local law enforcement officials have been working together to try to come up with a plan and they didn't have any heads up on this coming. So, you know, you can obviously, the very sophisticated police department, but not a lot of time.
And they are concerned about how many people may show up to support the former president. Then you've got counter protesters, sources familiar with latest intelligence, spoke to our Shimon Procupecz who joins me now.
And, Shimon, I know you've been talking about the concerns that tens of thousands, maybe 50,000 people showing up and just sort of converging upon that courthouse.
[22:35:00]
Are there specific concerns that authorities have?
SHIMON PROCUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly it's the large number of groups, people who could descend on this courthouse and the big question whether or not, you know, law enforcement can adequately respond. The Miami police certainly say they can adequately respond. They're ready to respond.
Of course, a lot of law enforcement officials thinking about January 6th with all of these events certainly involving the former president, that is something that they think about. When you look at some of the area here, you know, we have our drone up over the area here, you could just see how wide open a lot of this space is. And what they're certainly -- one of the things they're concerned about is the protesters and supporters gathering all across the streets here.
Right now, there's no designated area for the supporters and protesters to go. And so, the police are saying they're kind of gonna let them go and they're gonna see how this develops. And if no one shows up, if there aren't as many people, then they're just sort of gonna leave them alone. But if it gets too crowded, too packed, then we may see them placed in different areas.
But there's really no plan that we are aware of. And also, the other thing, Erin, you can see, there's really not a lot of security around here at the moment. It's much different than what we saw two months ago in Manhattan, where even night before there were barricades and several law enforcement officers and police officers all across the property. We're not seeing any of that here tonight, obviously, and hopefully that's going to change tomorrow.
Today, the police really want to talk about their plans. They just said that they're going to be ready and they say that people should not fear anything, that they're going to be prepared, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Shimon, thank you very much. Jake, it is amazing, right? They just didn't have much warning. And so, you know, you see it right now. You don't see of a security, but You could see tens of thousands of people there tomorrow.
TAPPER: Not difficult to imagine, unfortunately. Joining us here at the table, Donell Harvin, the Former Chief of Homeland Security for Washington, D.C. Along with me, of course, John King, Jamie Gangel, Elie Honig.
And Donell, I know we all have a lot of questions for you, so I'm just going to take two, and then I'm going to let everybody else ask questions about your expertise, because obviously, just for people who don't know, you were sounding the alarms from Homeland Security for D.C. before January 6th.
And sadly, a lot of your alarms were unheeded. The rhetoric online that we're seeing now, that we're hearing now, not just online, but you know, publicly from members of Congress, et cetera, how does it compare with what you saw and heard January 6th?
DONELL HARVIN, FORMER DC CHIEF OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE: So, currently, what we're seeing is not the volume of rhetoric that we saw on January 6th. But that shouldn't give anyone comfort because a lot of these individuals have stopped posting things what we call open source. And we collect Open Source Intelligence or what's called OSINT. They've gone to these encrypted chat rooms and they're doing their plannings privately.
What we have seen, however, is far more violent rhetoric. On January 6th, we didn't see anything about civil war or calls to arms as much as we're seeing now. So, there's less chatter, if you will, but a lot more violent.
TAPPER: So, obviously Florida, New York, Washington, D.C., all very different places.
HARVIN: Right.
TAPPER: Washington, D.C. and New York, very strict gun control measures, mayors and governors that are not exactly Donald Trump's biggest fans. Florida, very permissive gun laws, and a governor who is trying to appeal to Donald Trump's fans. How concerned are you about these two different situations?
HARVIN: Well, I don't want to be the pro-conspirator. You know, two entirely different scenarios. A lot of the individuals that were coming with January 6 were coming from Florida, right? And so, the D.C. mayor made it very clear that guns were not allowed. Mayor Adams did likewise in New York City.
You know Florida has very lax gun laws. And so, what the question is, there's a lot of talk not from Trump but from a lot of the individuals in his orbit talking about you know the Second Amendment and you know arming yourselves. And this really plays into specific groups that are extremely violent, accelerationist groups.
They've been plotting for decades for this race war, this civil war. And so, while these words may just be rhetoric for politicians or other individuals who are influencers, this is real true red meat for people who are unstable, who have been waiting for this call for many years.
KING: To that point, and to get a little bit more granular to the question Jake asked first then based on your experience on January 6th, you say this less chatter, but it's more violent. In looking at A, what you think was missed before January 6th and B, after that, hindsight, going through all the postings and sorting, are there certain words, certain languages that help you understand this is just somebody venting? You might not like it, but they're First Amendment right. And this is
somebody who's serious. Is there anything, any lesson of January 6th to look for certain words or certain people or the way they -- a pattern of communication that coordinates it, says violence is coming as opposed to somebody just venting?
[22:40:00]
HARVIN: Yeah, well, you have to look at the previous post and you have to look at, you know, if they're posting with guns, right? And that's what we saw a lot of January 6th. I will tell you that the reason why we actually have a democracy right now is because people didn't bring guns en masse to D.C. If those individuals had brought guns to D.C. in violation of D.C. rules, this would be a whole different conversation.
So, what we're talking about in Florida, Miami right now, tomorrow, is really uncharted waters for us. In terms of the threat assessment that every state and local has the capability to do, everyone has different protocols. Some of it is the language, some of it is where they're posting it, and some of it is really based on just good old fashioned tips and leads. So, it goes back to if you see something, say something. A lot of these individuals that we saw on January 6th were actually turned in by family members or loved ones that saw them on television.
And so, what we would need right now is to engage the public to really help defray any issues that may come about. Waiting for government to solve your homeland security problems is obviously not going to really play out very well.
GANGEL: We saw New York locked down in a remarkable way when Trump was arrested there. Just now with Shimon we saw some yellow police tape, there, it's shockingly different. If you're responsible right now for keeping the peace tomorrow, what's going to keep you up tonight?
HARVIN: We saw that at the same time. I can only hope that there's a better security posture that's going to happen tonight or tomorrow before the protests come. That yellow crime scene tape is for law- abiding people who are going to recognize that as a do not enter area and not pass through there. We saw the U.S. Capitol Police set up bike track that was wholly ineffective. That actually was used as projectiles against the police.
So, my hope is that they're going to have more security rolled out at some point tonight or tomorrow. I would have non -- eight-foot, non- scalable fence like we've had around the Capitol, like we have every inauguration. That takes some time to set up. I don't think they're going to get that up by tomorrow. I'd be pretty concerned based on what Shimon was just showing us.
HONIG: How strong are the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys now as compared to January 6th? And have the prosecutions of the leaders of those organizations had any impact?
HARVIN: I don't know intrinsically how strong the membership is. What I can tell you is that with the leaked Oath Keepers roster that we saw last year, what is concerning for a lot of us in this business is that there are individuals in position of public trust, law enforcement, military, police chiefs that were actually on that list. And so, what we're combating right now behind the scenes is radicalization actually within the ranks of law enforcement, retired military, and current military.
I will also tell you is that when I was in the position of monitoring these groups, the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys weren't our biggest threat, right? There are groups out there that you haven't heard of that we won't talk about in this program that are far more dangerous, far more prepared, and they're not going to go out there and show themselves until it's time to mobilize.
And my concern is when Donald Trump says, see you in Miami, when Kari Lake says, you know, you're going to have to go through 70 plus million Americans with guns, right? That's the call that they've been waiting for decades. They've been arming for decades, ever since Waco and Ruby Ridge. And this may be their trigger.
TAPPER: Chilling. Donell Harvin, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Coming up next, we're going to dissect the legal side of this indictment and politically, how more of Donald Trump's 2024 rivals are starting to attack him over the arrest and arraignment. Stay with us.
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[22:45:00]
BURNETT: In just a matter of hours, Donald Trump will become the first former American president to face federal criminal charges, a total of 37 counts. And they include everything from willfully holding national defense information, conspiracy with the top aide, to hide documents from the government, disseminating that information to others.
Joining the table here, John Miller, CNN Chief Law Enforcement Analyst, who is also the Former Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism for the NYPD, and Karen Friedman Agnifilo, CNN Legal Analyst, Former Chief Assistant DA in the Manhattan DA's office.
Okay, so Karen, let me start with you. We don't know what we'll get tomorrow. We may get nothing in terms of seeing him, right? We may not get pictures, we may not get video, we may not see the DOJ mugshot. John was just saying a moment ago that is maybe against DOJ policy. We may not hear anything. All right, so what does all that mean? I mean, we're just gonna find out the plea?
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, what's going to happen tomorrow is the magistrate judge who's overseeing this case has said there will be no cameras in the courtroom, no electronic devices, none of that, which is why we will not see all the things you're talking about. But we will, there will be people in the courtroom who will come out and tell us what they saw and what happened.
There will also be a stenographer who's taking minutes, and I'm sure we will see the minutes of the proceeding tomorrow, so, we will know what was said and what was done. BURNETT: We'll know the direct quotes of everything he says.
AGNIFILO: Exactly. And there'll be a sketch artist, I'm sure, who will be making sketches and that sort of thing. So, I think we'll have a lot of information tomorrow. And if you recall when Donald Trump was first arraigned in New York State Court, we also had to wait until afterwards, other than the one photograph that the judge allowed reporters to go in and take. He also had a similar, you just had an embargo, there was no electronic devices and we all sat there waiting for the information to come out and the transcripts.
BURNETT: And Laura, you remember, obviously in that case just two months ago, we were talking about Alvin Bragg in New York, the foreign president kept his answers very terse.
COATES: He did, and then also afterwards, he was not willing to answer any questions of the media, which I think surprised a lot of people.
[22:50:00]
This will likely be something very similar because he has a campaign event later on. I bet he'll reserve it for that moment in time, but it'll be very difficult to try to muzzle this particular person in a way that I think his lawyers will be interested in hearing. But on the lawyer point, remember, there are co-defendants in this matter.
I'll be very curious to see if at the end of tomorrow, we still have one legal defense team, or there's an eye towards having separate counsel, which would move towards a thing called severance, when one defendant does not want to be tried with the other. That's a possibility here, although who fits that bill will be a different thing. But if their interests are totally aligned and the interests of efficiency in our courts require them to be together, they'll remain together. If that changes, we'll start to know a little bit more tomorrow.
BURNETT: All right, and what we don't know, John, of course, you know, as you look at all this is, in all of the information in the indictment, why was Walt Nauta ever given an opportunity to flip on Trump prior to this point or not? You know, did they ever say, well, actually, I know you're telling us you don't know these things, but we have you on tape and you know, we've got all of it. We don't know whether he was ever even confronted with that or whether only now is he finding out the truth, if he believes what he sees in the end of it.
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: So, we don't know that, but I mean, there are these cases where there's two bites of that apple. You may be approached by agents or prosecutors early on to say, as they put it, do you want to come on Team America and, you know, tell us what you know and testify as a witness? Or you could end up as a defendant.
That may or may not have happened at some stage, as you point out. But as Laura points out, in the second instance, there comes this awakening, this moment of reality, where you or some other lawyer realizes, you know, you guys are charged together, but it's not in your interest to go to trial together because, you know, your defense may be he told me to do it. And that's where you start to think about asking the court for a severance, asking for a different lawyer if your lawyer is being paid for by the lead defendant.
BURNETT: And you're familiar with Walt Nauta, who is, of course, the alleged co-conspirator in the indictment. You know, it's funny, Ty Cobb was a Former White House Attorney, was telling me today, look, of all things you could say about Walt Nauta, he is a patriot. And one of the greatest honors in his life was being a valet for the President of the United States. How do you think that this moment is affecting him? Because he has become, along with the unnamed employee number two, perhaps the most important person in this case.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right, because he had a 20-year-long career in the Navy and one of the highest things you can reach is being kind of the personal aide to the president. And what that looks like in the West Wing was he would be somebody who would, oh, fetch this for me, get me a Diet Coke, bring this in. But you have a level of personal proximity to the president that Walt did in the time that I was in the West Wing and then when he left office.
I think that this has to be a moment where somebody who wore the uniform in service and has served our country has to think long and hard about perhaps you were drawn into the former president's magnetism. Perhaps you felt like you were doing something patriotic by standing by him. Maybe you believe in his policies, but this is your country charging that former president.
I would hope for his sake, I've seen way too many of my old colleagues and friends end up with tens of thousands of dollars of legal bills. He is better if he separates himself from the former president. And I just want to note one other thing, we're gonna get a speech most likely from Donald Trump tomorrow night. He's struggling to find attorneys right now, partially because he's probably going to step into incriminating himself even further as he talks more in these speeches that he gives tomorrow night. This is not a man of discipline.
BURNETT: But Karen, can I just say, what did you say earlier today? Pardon me if I'm putting it out in the public and I shouldn't, but MAGA in attorney land is now make attorneys get attorneys.
AGNIFILO: Yeah. That's true.
BURNETT: I mean, in terms of finding someone to represent, it's not easy.
AGNIFILO: Yeah, it's not easy because half the, many of the lawyers he's already represented are themselves having to get attorneys and are being, whether it's prosecuted, fined, et cetera, so --
COATES: That's why Corcoran, of course, has, I'm sure, has that recorded audio footage that essentially is in full CYA mode, knowing what happened to people like Michael Cohen and beyond to suggest, look, I'm gonna contemporaneously record what I've said. And I will say, keep a lookout, if Corcoran does ultimately testify at a trial, a cross-examination point will be, well, you recorded this but you didn't resign from actually being his attorney at that moment in time. And so, there'll be questions about the tenure of his actual relationship, but it's still a very interesting point that they're trying to make sure that there has some coverage in that respect.
BURNETT: So, are we gonna start to see, Scott, any change in the GOP field? We saw a little bit of a shift from Nikki Haley, right, on the eve of the indictment, a two-tiered justice system in America. She may or may not have used the word witch hunt, but that was the whole point. And now, it's, if true, these are serious charges.
Tonight, Chris Christie saying, you can have your issues about restoring trust in the DOJ. That doesn't mean what Trump did was okay and there's no double standard in this case. Will we see more of that?
JENNINGS: I think if pressed, some of these people would be forced to admit the national security implications here, but I don't think you're gonna see anybody go as far as what Chris Christie or Asa Hutchinson have gone.
[22:55:00]
BURNETT: Right.
JENNINGS: I was a little surprised, honestly, to see Nikki Haley. Well, I guess I wasn't surprised, actually. I mean, this is her reputation. I mean, I think most Republican voters you saw in the polling over the weekend, they think this is political. They think it's a two-tiered system. They think it's selective punishment. They think they're out to get Trump.
So, these people running for president, you know, they can read a poll and they know all of that. So, I don't expect to see a big change. But the authentic national security-focused conservative could not look at the evidence of this case and say, it's fine. Just can't do it.
BURNETT: I was actually a little shocked by Lindsey Graham in this case. I mean you know, before Ukraine aid he cares so much about national security and yet and yet took Trump's side on this one.
JONES: Well, you know, they tend to do that. I just hope we don't get too used to this. I just, I just don't like it. Like, we now actually have a playbook we know, okay, so the president's gonna get indicted so there's gonna be protests and then it's gonna be this, he's gonna get a sandwich then he's gonna give a speech. This is not healthy. I don't want us to get too used to this. We should all be sober and appalled tomorrow when this happens.
BURNETT: All right, well, all of you, thank you very much. I think something all can agree with, I hope. And thanks so much to all of you for joining us tonight. Special coverage continues next with Abby Phillip.
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