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CNN Live Event/Special

Trump Says, My Decision To Lead Efforts To Overturn Election; Biden Takes Hit For Iran Deal To Free Five Americans; Gov. Gavin Newsom (D-CA) Says, Absolutely Support The Autoworker Strike; CNN's Dana Bash Talks Politics With Governor Newsom; Citadel CEO Ken Griffin Says It is Time For Biden To Enjoy His Retirement; Pamela Brown Discusses Senate Dress Code; Leslie Jones Tells "People" Magazine That Chris Rock Needed Counseling After Oscar's Slapping Incident. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 18, 2023 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:01]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: This jet cost almost $80 million in taxpayer money. But at one point, the Pentagon made an unusual plea, asking the public for help locating it with a phone number to call if you saw it.

Congresswoman Nancy Mace from South Carolina summed it up when she asked, how the hell do you lose an F-35? The pilot did eject over South Carolina and is doing okay. Of course, a lot of questions still remain tonight about this entire incident.

Thank you so much for joining us. CNN Primetime with Pamela Brown starts right now. Hi, Pam.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Hey there. I got to say, Nancy Mace asked a fair question, fair question, how do you lose that?

COLLINS: I think we were all thinking it.

BROWN: Exactly. Kaitlan, thanks so much. And good evening, everyone, I'm Pamela Brown.

Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. The famous Miranda Rights are obviously not of concern to Donald Trump, at least not during his recent T.V. interviews spree, because what he's revealing will likely be played in his trials, including this significant admission that he himself was the decider, the orchestrator of the efforts to overturn the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You hire them, you never met these people, you get a recommendation, they turn out to be RINOs or they turn out to be not so good. In many cases, I didn't respect him, but I did respect others. I respected many others that said the election was rigged.

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Were you calling the shots, though, Mr. President, ultimately?

TRUMP: As to whether or not I believed it was rigged, sure. It was my decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: His decision, not only is the admission striking. But it completely contradicts one of the defenses that his lawyers had floated that Trump was just listening to his legal counsel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're entitled to believe and trust advice of counsel. You have one of the leading constitutional scholars in the United States, John Eastman, say to President Trump, this is a protocol that you can follow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But his admissions, well, they don't stop there. In the classified documents case, he gave an if I did it defense when it comes to the obstruction of evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELKER: Did you testify to that under oath?

TRUMP: I'll testify. The tapes weren't deleted. In other words, there was nothing done to them. And they were my tapes. I could have fought them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: According to the superseding indictment, Trump ordered his aides to delete the tapes. And keep in mind, one of those aides has since flipped on Trump separately. He said this when asked about the heart of the case, taking and keeping sensitive intelligence that didn't belong to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm allowed to have these documents. I'm allowed to take these documents, classified or not classified. And, frankly, when I have them, they become unclassified. People think you have to go through a ritual. You don't. At least in my opinion, you don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining us now, former Trump White House Lawyer Jim Schultz. Hi, Jim.

So, help us put this into context, right, the significant admission by former President Trump that bears repeating, it was my decision. Did Trump just throw his own legal defense under the bus?

JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: I don't know if he threw his entire legal defense under the bus, but his lawyers are certainly beating their heads against the desk after this weekend. I mean, whether you're talking about documents, whether you're talking about what he did or didn't do or what he made decisions relative to as it related to the January 6th issues, I mean, all of those issues across the board, his lawyers are telling him, don't talk about them. Don't say anything definitive. Don't talk about it at all. And what does he do? He goes out and does it anyway.

So, they're going to be banging our heads against the desk for the next year or so as these trials unfold and as he continues the campaign and go out and talk about these issues that should be fought for the courtroom and not for the public domain.

BROWN: Yes. And it's a reminder, right, that he is on the campaign trail, right? And every interview he does, he presumably will be asked about this, right? And it's Trump and we know he's not always the most disciplined with his responses.

So, do you think now his lawyers have to take what he said and change course a little bit with their strategy? I mean, you heard the one lawyer there say, no, he was just listening to his counsel, then Trump goes out and says, actually, no, it was me, it was totally my decision.

SCHULTZ: Well, he does say that he didn't listen to certain lawyers yet he listened to other people, but he gave direction to it, right? He's all over the place in the way he speaks, which is a problem for his lawyers, but also tough to nail the guy down when you're cross- examining him.

I could guarantee you that that tape is going to be used as evidence in the court of law, and also in the trials, and I also think that we don't really know specifically where the prosecution is going on this. So, him going out there and talking about things just kind of gives them more and more because you really don't specifically know where they're going other than what's in the four corners of the indictments.

So, I think there's a real danger associated with this, the fact that he said, I listened to some people, but not others, but it really sounded like he was the one giving direction that the lawyers were not directing him, that he was the one directing lawyers, found folks that were going to listen to him, and then they went and out and implemented a plan.

[22:05:16]

BROWN: I want to ask you about something else that's semi-related, this development in Fulton County today. Lawyers for former DOJ Attorney Jeffrey Clark said that he was acting at the personal direction of then-President Trump. What do you think about that? Do you think he might flip?

SCHULTZ: So, look, I think, not only that, I think that has more to do with him trying to get this into federal court, right? This is a bless about him flipping more about his idea to get this thing into federal court and make the argument that he should be there because he was acting in his official capacity in the Justice Department and that he was acting at the behest of the commander-in-chief, and that this case belongs in federal courts because it wasn't out the sky at the scope of his duties as in working the executive branch of government for the president of the United States. So, I think that has more to do with trying to get into federal court, less to do about flipping.

But, look, as the vises start to close down on these folks, especially in that Georgia case, you're going to see folks start to turn on that one. That's why I think this thing is way down the road. It's going to be a long time before we see a lot of the defendants tried at one particular time because you're going to see a lot of motion practice and a lot of these issues that need to be resolved.

BROWN: I want to ask you about some news just in. Rudy Giuliani's lawyers, including Bob Costello, are now suing him tonight for more than a million dollars over unpaid legal fees for work involving the election interference cases.

We know that Trump recently was fundraising for Rudy Giuliani that we know he's been cash strapped, now this. What's your initial reaction?

SCHULTZ: That's all bad news for Rudy Giuliani, right? I mean, the guy clearly is having money problems. He's got the, he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders as it relates to some of these cases coming down on him. He's not a young man. I mean, he's got a lot coming down on him at one time.

And if I'm Donald Trump, I'm a little worried about that, right, because he's the guy that was with him the whole time through. It will be interesting to see what happens as it relates to these legal bills, if you will, and how Rudy Giuliani is going to pay for them. He's got to be looking at Donald Trump and saying, help me out, pal.

BROWN: All right, Jim Schultz, thanks, I appreciate it. And speaking of Donald Trump's T.V. spree, he's adding more lies to the laundry list.

Our Daniel Dale joins me now. Daniel has basically been going nonstop since this interview aired.

You know, Trump struck me. He could not stop talking about his, quote/unquote, perfect call with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger.

DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: He did. He spoke about the call and Raffensperger, as you know, has been sharply critical of Trump's conduct on that call. He wrote in his 2021 book that he felt Trump was threatening him, trying to manipulate him, that Trump didn't understand elections, didn't have his facts straight. But Trump claimed in this Meet the Press interview, he said, Raffensperger last week said, I didn't do anything wrong. Raffensperger, Trump claims, said that was a negotiation.

Now, I looked far and wide for this supposed Raffensperger quote where he said Trump didn't do anything wrong. Pam, it does not exist. Raffensperger simply did not say that. Trump made it up.

And Raffensperger was not the only old foe, if you can call him that, that Trump kept talking about. He kept falsely blaming then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for the January 6th rioter insurrection. He claimed again that Nancy Pelosi said she turned down 10,000 soldiers. If she didn't turn down the soldiers, you wouldn't have had January 6th. And he said she was in charge of Capitol security.

Well, as I've explained over and over again, Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker is not in charge of Capitol security. That's the responsibility of the Capitol Police Board. Second of all, Trump is the commander-in-chief of the D.C. National Guard. It is him, not the House speaker, that can deploy it if he had wanted to. And according to his testimony from his then-Acting Secretary of Defense Christopher Miller, he never actually issued any such order.

BROWN: And it's interesting, too, he said that we have that the letter from the mayor saying Pelosi turned it down. Well, if he really had that, wouldn't you think that would have been released by now?

DALE: He would have been holding it up.

BROWN: Exactly. And Trump also sought to portray Democrats as radicals on the issue of abortion. I mean, he said this over and over again. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You have New York State and other places that pass legislation where you're allowed to kill the baby after birth?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What's the truth?

DALE: This is just made up. There is no killing the baby after birth law anywhere in the country that is infanticide illegal in all 50 states. New York in 2019 passed a 24-week abortion limit with exceptions for the life and health of the mother and the viability of the fetus. Infanticide is simply not legal in New York.

And that wasn't the only wildly inaccurate thing he said. He also made one that was kind of darkly funny. He was asked by Meet the Press Moderator Kristen Welker about comments he had made about drug cartels.

[22:10:04]

And she said, you said that if you're president again, you will instruct the Department of Defense to use Special Forces to inflict maximum damage on the cartels. He said, no, I didn't say that. People say, I said that, I didn't say it.

Well, listen to what he said in a January campaign video that is still on his website today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I will order the Department of Defense to make appropriate use of Special Forces, cyber warfare and other overt and covert actions to inflict maximum damage on cartel leadership, infrastructure and operations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DALE: A few more words there, but he basically said exactly what Kristen Walker said he said, and he claimed he didn't.

BROWN: In a situation like that, I'd bet on Kristen Welker.

Let's talk about bacon.

DALE: Bacon.

BROWN: Because, apparently, that is Trump's inflation gauge.

DALE: Yes. So, in this interview, Trump, for the second time in the last two weeks, claimed that the price of bacon has gone up by five times, that it has quintupled under Joe Biden. Well, we have very good stats in this country on the price of bacon. It has increased about 12 percent under Joe Biden, going from about $5.83 per pound to about $6.50 per pound.

Now, Trump could just say that. This is another case where Donald Trump could -- he has a stat that could work to his purposes if he had just cited it accurately. Instead, it seems like he can't help himself. He has to extremely exaggerate it, claiming it's a 400 percent increase instead of, again, the 11.5 increase we actually had.

BROWN: That was probably one of your easier fact checks.

DALE: It was.

BROWN: I would imagine. All right, Daniel Dale, thank you for your time tonight.

And just hours from now, Americans freed from Iran will be back on U.S. soil, and President Biden is under fire for this deal. John Bolton is here with us to react to this.

Plus, a mystery in the air, what happened to a U.S. fighter jet that vanished and the military couldn't locate?

And Gavin Newsom sits down with CNN on everything from the strikes to his political ambitions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You never looked in the mirror and said, could I be president?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:15:39]

BROWN: Well, just a short time from now. Five American hostages wrongly detained inside Iran for years will touch down on U.S. soil after finally being freed. It's part of a prisoner exchange that includes the unfreezing of $6 billion in Iranian assets. President Biden now facing Republican criticism for agreeing to this deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Their release may very well be the latest example of President Biden rewarding and incentivizing Tehran's bad behavior. The Biden administration's record of appeasement and squandered leverage has left Americans less secure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And joining us now, former Trump National Security Adviser John Bolton, Ambassador, thank you for coming on.

First, I want to get your reaction to the release of these five American hostages in the $6 billion prisoner swap deal with Iran.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, we're all glad to see the Americans come home. There's no doubt that they were put in prison purely on pretext, quite probably to be used as bargaining chips by the Ayatollahs, and now that has come to pass. I don't think there's any question that when you trade assets, whether it's hostages, other hostages, money, or other concessions to terrorists, to rogue states, like Tehran, like Moscow, like Beijing, that it's going to encourage others to do the same.

And one of the really troubling aspects of the way the Biden administration has handled this is that it absolutely makes no effort to hide the fact this is an outright cash for people trade. I mean, it is human trafficking. And the fact that they're so blatant about it, I think, is just an advertisement for other bad actors to seize Americans.

BROWN: You say this is human trafficking. The Biden administration says the $6 billion belongs to the Iranian people and that this money will go solely to help the Iranian people with humanitarian needs. What do you say to that?

BOLTON: That is total nonsense. This $6 billion was frozen, pursuant to U.S. sanctions, and the purpose of freezing the asset was to inflict economic harm on Iran to get it to give up its nuclear weapons program. The money was taken from Iran, in effect, because of its bad behavior. And now it's being given back to Iran for more bad behavior.

And I have to say that this idea that somehow the money will only be used for, quote/unquote, humanitarian purposes shows the Biden White House just has nothing but contempt for the intelligence of the American people. Money is fungible. The net-net of this is that the state assets of the Ayatollahs have been increased by $6 billion dollars to do with whatever they want, their nuclear program, their support for terrorism, whatever it may be.

BROWN: I want to get to this full screen of up from Brett McGurk, a White House official, who is responding to the criticism coming from you and from other Republicans. He says, we have not lifted any sanctions. We have not waived any sanctions. There is an account in South Korea that even under the last administration was available for humanitarian trade and we moved it to another restricted account. There's really no change. The money will be spent over the years and will benefit the Iranian people.

I want to ask you, though, about former Vice President Mike Pence and what he is saying in this foreign policy speech this afternoon, making one thing clear, he is warning against growing isolation sentiment in the Republican Party. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Some Republican candidates including my former running mate are abandoning the traditional conservative position of American leadership on the world stage and embracing a new and dangerous form of isolationism.

I believe isolationism is just another word for appeasement. And let's be clear appeasement will not make America any safer. In fact, appeasement would only make America in the world more dangerous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Ambassador, is there still room in today's Republican Party for the message we're hearing from Pence?

[22:20:01]

BOLTON: Well, I think vice president is exactly correct and I do think across the country he's reflecting the Reaganite sentiment that still forms an overwhelming majority of Republicans and in Congress as well.

There is an isolationist virus loose in the party. There's no doubt about it. I think it was put there by Donald Trump, who doesn't have enough of a coherent policy to understand what isolation is. But it's a grave danger for America given the threats we're facing around the world, whether it's China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, terrorists in Afghanistan. This is the last point where we should be engaged in this notion that if we just pull back, we'll be safer. It's exactly the wrong way.

The way to protect America is to project strength in the world to deter our adversaries. And I think that's the policy that we should have a much more vigorous debate about in this upcoming election. In presidential cycles, we just don't talk about foreign affairs enough. We're in a dangerous world and we need to know which of the prospective candidates has the strength to lead us through dangerous times.

BROWN: I want to ask you on that note about, while we're on foreign policy, your former boss, Donald Trump, told NBC News, when asked about the war in Ukraine, that he could have ended in 24 hours, something he has said before, and that, again, saying that he does not believe that Putin would have ever invaded Ukraine if he was president. What do you say to that?

BOLTON: Well, first, the idea that this war can be ended in 24 hours is just a complete fantasy. It's a part of a line of pattern that Trump has that is intended to showcase what he thinks are his great negotiating skills. What it really shows to foreign leaders is that he doesn't know what he's talking about, which simply gives them more incentive to try and take advantage of us.

The only thing that Putin was waiting for during the Trump administration was to see if, after the disastrous phone call with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in the summer of 2019, that in a second term, Trump would withdraw from NATO, which would have made a Russian invasion of Ukraine much less problematic.

And I think this is a real danger if Trump gets our nomination and is re-elected. I do think he will try and withdraw from NATO, which would be a catastrophic mistake for the country.

BROWN: Ambassador, while I have you, I'd like to get your reaction to the F-35 fighter jet that went missing on Sunday right near Charleston, South Carolina, and what they're describing as a mishap.

Tonight, we have learned crews have discovered a debris field, but it's still unclear why this happened. How does a $100 million jet disappear?

BOLTON: Well, it should be an embarrassment, there's no doubt about it, whether the various means to locate a downed plane suddenly went to the ground went dead. Who knows? We'll have to do the forensics of that. But it's not a good sign. I understand parts of the military have ordered stand-downs of other F-35s until they can locate the cause and it's something we should be concerned about because in time of war, you want to know where your pilots have gone down nearby anyway where the plane is so you can rescue them.

So, we'll have to await the result of the investigation that is sure to come here but it's -- for a piece of equipment as expensive as the F-35, that this is something that that we shouldn't have allowed to happen.

BROWN: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you for your time.

BOLTON: Glad to be with you.

BROWN: And just in, a billionaire donor is now bailing on Ron DeSantis. Hear why, coming up after this break.

Plus, a CNN exclusive, Dana Bash sitting down with California Governor Gavin Newson, his thoughts on the auto strike, Biden's performance and his own presidential ambitions.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:27:55]

BROWN: Gavin Newsom, the California governor, is seen by many Democrats as the future of the party. And in an exclusive CNN interview, Dana Bash asks him about his presidential ambitions, Joe Biden's performance and the historic strikes keeping the economy on edge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: I want to talk about what's going on with labor, starting with the UAW strike. It's a historic strike against the big three automakers in the U.S. We're now on day four. Workers are demanding a 40 percent raise and a four-day work week. Do you support the strike and are those demands reasonable?

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): I support the workers and I support a construct that has to be residing. It was Plutarch who said, the imbalance between the rich and the poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics. We have to address that fundamental gap.

BASH: So, yes, you support the strike.

NEWSOM: Absolutely, I absolutely support the workers and the strike and the strikers for fundamental reasons, and also it's about fairness. It wasn't that many years ago. It wasn't the black and white movie days. They took pay cuts. They took concessions. As we, the American people, taxpayers bailed out these corporations and now they're enjoying record profits. I mean, I think the American people are overwhelmingly supportive of those workers.

As it relates to the details of the negotiations, I do enough labor negotiation, not to opine what's been presented in public. But, obviously, all of us want to see this work through quickly.

BASH: Another strike, the Writers Guild, SAG, this has been going on for months now in Hollywood, in your home state. These are your constituents.

NEWSOM: Yes.

BASH: This is a very important industry in your state. Experts estimate that the strike already cost $5 billion dollars --

NEWSOM: Probably more.

BASH: -- from your state's economy.

NEWSOM: Yes.

BASH: Number one -- I don't believe you've been out in the picket line, have you?

NEWSOM: I've been deeply involved. In fact, I was with talking to the WGA and members of the studios over the last week. We're going to be meeting later this week. I'm in a different position as it relates to trying to be constructive on both sides to utilize the formal authority I have as governor, the convening capacity I have as governor, the moral authority to extend, I can bring it in the conversation to try to get everybody to the table. [22:30:03]

That's the work I do in state to address the issue of not just public sector disputes which I deal with often, but private sector disputes. I'm encouraged by the conversations over this last weekend. I'm not going to overstate that and I'm encouraged that they're meeting again later this week.

BASH: You support the UAW and their strike, but you don't want to go that far when it comes to the Writers Guild and Screen Actors Guild?

NEWSOM: That's the same question. I absolutely support what their concerns are and I support WJA and SAG as it relates to their existential stress as it relates to streaming and how it's radically changing the business model as it relates to artificial intelligence.

One thing I know about artificial intelligence is we don't know what we don't know. And that anxiety stacked upon all the stress and anxiety that we've all been feeling around income and wealth disparities and all the challenges post-pandemic that we've gone through makes a perfect stew of stress that's leading to a lot of the anxiety that we're experiencing all across the country, not just at SAG and WGA as it relates to that expression of a striker UAW, but you're seeing it at Starbucks.

You're seeing it more broadly as labor's exercising more muscle out of more fear and stress about the world we're living in. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think fundamentally, that's a good thing. I believe in collective bargaining. I believe working families and working poor do better when they organize together. And in California, I don't know, there's a state in our nation, not a state in the nation, that does more to support that framework and those bargaining units.

BASH: As a proud Democrat, as a supporter of President Biden in his re-election, the frustration being expressed like this among people in the workforce, labor unions, is that a warning sign?

NEWSOM: But it's been a trend line for decades and it's a headline in the last few weeks.

BASH: Well, but I'm talking about even just --

NEWSOM: -- and few years. I mean, this is by no means anomalous. These are well-established trend lines. This president knew that. He campaigned on this. Scranton Joe, no one with a better record, on some of these issues, not rhetorical, substantive record, voting record in the Senate, a leader on these issues. He's had a great labor record. He has moral authority, not just in the position of president with his formal authority. And so, none of this, I think, is surprising.

BASH: I want to talk about that as it relates to the headwinds that President Biden is facing when it comes to the perception, the gap, as you call it --

NEWSOM: Yeah.

BASH: -- between how people think the economy is doing and how people feel the economy is doing. It is true. Unemployment is near all-time lows.

NEWSOM: 3.7 percent.

BASH: And inflation is back under four percent. Interest rates are high. Gas prices are rising again.

NEWSOM: Yeah.

BASH: And the bottom line is the majority of Americans just don't feel good about the way things are.

NEWSOM: Yeah.

BASH: Is this just a messaging problem, or is there more fundamental problems than that?

NEWSOM: Look, we dealt with, you know, we've been polarized and traumatized over the last five or six years. I don't think any of us have given us time to take a deep breath and reflect on it. What we're experiencing is not unique in the United States at all. I mean, it's a global phenomenon.

The issues of COVID and the stress it created, the supply chain impacts what happened with the invasion in Ukraine, the impacts with OPEC plus in particular, another reason we get off the dependency of fossil fuels, all of those things stack up at this moment, but directionally, this president is performing.

I mean, we're seeing inflation down roughly two thirds, just two thirds since its peak. That's a directionally very positive sign. The lowest unemployment for blacks, Hispanics and disabled, 70-year lows for women in this country. I mean, with all due respect to the Republican Party, they can point the finger and say it could have been better. It could be better. They offer nothing in terms of alternative strategies to make it so.

BASH: But Joe Biden is the president.

NEWSOM: Yeah.

BASH: And so, the expectation and the sort of referendum is on the incumbent.

NEWSOM: Is there a danger in telling people what the stats are and making them feel like they shouldn't feel as bad as they do? No, I think you have to. I mean, you got to feel people's pain. You got to acknowledge that.

That's why I began talking about how traumatized and polarized we've been. I've been talking about that stacking of stress, and I've been talking about the distress people are feeling and that sense of dislocation, disequilibrium, this notion, that we are, you know, more disconnected in our politics. You see it on the nightly news. That stress and frustration that we haven't come to grips with, all of that's real.

And I think that is making it more challenging. You promised, if Dianne Feinstein steps down before the end of her term, to appoint a woman color as an interim. I'm sure you saw that Congresswoman Barbara Lee, who's running in the primary, did not like that very much.

She said the idea that a black woman should be appointed only as a caretaker to simply check a box is insulting to countless black women across the country. And then she went on to say that the perspective of a black woman in the U.S. Senate is sorely needed and needed for more than a few months.

[22:35:00]

NEWSOM: Yeah. Well, I appreciate that point of view. We have a primary in a couple of months. This is a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical. And what I said stands. If under that hypothetical situation I'm asked to make an appointment, I will make an appointment of an African American woman, period, full stop. And why? Because I think, best person should be there, and I happen to think that representation matters.

That's why I made two out of three Supreme Court justice positions of African American women, appointed them, and appointed a remarkable woman as our Secretary of State, an African American woman, the first head of our law enforcement agency, CHP, an African American woman, and the head of the California resources board, African American woman. So, I've got a pretty good record in this space. And I'm going to hold myself to account if that hypothetical on top of a hypothetical ever occurs.

BASH: Okay. Before I let you go, I know you've said many, many times you do not see a world in which you will run for president in 2024.

NEWSOM: Yes. I mean, yes, no. The answer is no.

BASH: Yes, you are not.

NEWSOM: The answer is no.

NASH: No, you will not run in 2024.

NEWSOM: Yeah, no ambiguity.

BASH: Generally speaking, do you think you would make a good president?

NEWSOM: Oh, come on. No. That's now a triple hypothetical if we've just doubled. And so --

BASH: You never thought about it?

NEWSOM: No, I'm not that guy. I'm just not. I never had a photo.

BASH: You never looked in the mirror and said, I'd be president.

NEWSOM: I'm not a member of the Senate. No. Yeah.

BASH: But you're a chief executive of a big state. It's not that big of a leap. We have seen governors of California become president.

NEWSOM: Yeah, and others that have tried. Look, I'm blessed and humbled beyond words. They tried to recall me a couple of years ago. So, humility and grace is front and center in my consciousness. And what's also front and center is just getting out of this sort of naval gazing around Joe Biden.

Let's get going. Let's get on the train. This train has left the proverbial station. We have a lot to get on and stop, move on and, and get this campaign going. And I'm excited about it. I'm going to do my small part and whatever they asked me to do, I'll do and stand up and stand proud and strong because I just never had an opportunity to defend a record I think as impressive as a record of the Biden administration the last two years with humility and recognition that not every problem in the world has been solved and that people still have deep unease and anxiety about the world they are living in.

And that is part of our responsibility every single day to make those lives better. And that's what I look forward to the next year and a half of the current administration and then four years of an extended term of the Biden-Harris administration.

BASH: Governor, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

NEWSOM: Thanks for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: CNN Anchor and Chief Political Correspondent, Dana Bash. With us now, Dana, that sounds like a hard no on running for president.

BASH: Sounds like a hard no on running for president right now. I don't know. I -- there's definitely a Rorschach test that you can use for the have I ever looked at. He says no, I've never thought about it. But look, there's no question that the reason why the California governor is coming out to do an interview with me. He was out over the weekend last weekend, I believe, is because there is a perception that there is a bit of a vacuum when it comes to really pushing the national message -- pushing the Biden-Harris message.

Of course, the president is out there, she is out there a bit, but there is so much hand wringing. And you heard him at the end there, so much hand wringing. Pam, you hear this as well among Democrats saying, is Joe Biden the right guy? Is Kamala Harris the right person? I mean, what he's trying to do is to say, let's just stop doing that, Democrats.

Let's get, as you heard him, get on the train and figure out how to get this team re-elected. That is by and large the main, main argument that he is trying to make. And again, he's trying to make it to American voters, but he's also trying to send a signal to Democratic operatives, donors, everybody who is very concerned.

BROWN: All right, Dana Bash, thank you so much.

BASH: Thanks. Good to see you.

BROWN: Be sure to watch Dana's full interview on CNN.com. And just in tonight, a billionaire Republican donor to Ron DeSantis is bailing on the candidate. His explanation, up next, we're going to discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:43:50]

BROWN: Hedge Fund billionaire Ken Griffin, the CEO of Citadel, who's a major donor to Republican candidates, says he's sitting on the sidelines during the upcoming GOP primaries. He supported Ron DeSantis, but no more. Here's what he told CNBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN GRIFFIN, CEO OF CITADEL: I'm still on the sidelines as to who to support in this election cycle. Look, if I had my dream, we'd have a great Republican candidate in the primary who was younger, of a different generation with a different tone for America, and we'd have a younger person on the Democratic side in the primary who would have his message for our country, and we'd have a debate around ideas and principles and policies to make this a great nation. We're not having that dialogue right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, let's discuss with CNN Political Commentator, Ashley Allison, the former National Coalitions Director for Biden-Harris 2020 and Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton. I mean, this is pretty significant, right? This major billionaire donor who was a Ron DeSantis supporter now sitting out, how significant is this?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It's significant. Ken has been around a long time. He's well respected by Republicans. Many of them go to him for financial support, particularly some of the major packs.

[22:45:00]

And what it indicates, Pamela, is that DeSantis is not the star that an individual thought he once was, actually. He shot for the moon and somehow missed. And so, a lot of those donors are looking for someone else.

BROWN: And for every day that a donor of this magnitude is out of the GOP primary, what does that mean for Trump?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it gives him an opportunity to continue to expand his lead and raise money from his base. I think the other thing with someone of this magnitude sitting out is other people who also are large donors, look to someone like him and is like, if you're sitting out and not going with the candidate you originally supported, i.e. Ron DeSantis, then maybe I should sit out and see if there's another superstar who can rise to the occasion in this next upcoming debate. But it just, again, gives another day and another day for Donald Trump to potentially come closer of confirming that Republican nomination.

BROWN: And it was interesting because he said he doesn't really understand DeSantis' strategy.

SINGLETON: Yeah.

BROWN: And DeSantis, as we know, has fired people from the campaign. He's retooled. He's done all kinds of things. And at this point, is there any way that he can recover?

SINGLETON: I don't think so. I mean, this is pretty unprecedented, what we've seen from the DeSantis campaign. I've worked on three presidential campaigns, and usually this doesn't happen to a campaign and a candidate until after the primary has officially started with votes. I mean, he's way ahead of the process.

And I would add, I mean, I've spoken with individuals who are in contact with some of the family offices for Republican donors. And there's a lot of frustration, Pamela and Ashley, among some of the mega donors with the options right now. And many of them, they're looking to Trump, but they don't necessarily want to go back in that direction. They want someone to address people's problems today to speak to the future.

BROWN: Well, Griffin, for his part, he clearly isn't happy with what he's seen on the Republican side, but I want to play a clip of what he said about President Biden that reflects what a lot of people on both sides of the aisle are thinking and feeling right now. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: And interestingly enough, there's no real contender against Joe Biden, who with all due respect, it's time for him to enjoy retirement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, he and he went on to talk about the concerns about his age and that when people go to the polls about they have to think about can he -- would he be able to do a full term? Another four years. Biden, for his party, actually touted his age tonight as a reason to re-elect him. I want to read this quote.

He said off camera, "A lot of people seem focused on my age. Believe me, I know better than anyone. When this nation was flat on its back, I knew what to do." Do you think that messaging is enough to overcome some of the fears that people have about his age?

I think it is, but I think it's not just the fact that he knew what to do, but it's also what he continues to do and how he continues to govern. He needs to be talking about his policies and how he is improving the life of Americans. Now, let's not forget though, if Donald Trump is also the nominee, we have two older candidates running against each other.

BROWN: Now, why is it that people seem more concerned about Biden -- because Trump's only a few years younger, why are people more concerned about Biden's age than Trump, according to the polls?

ALLISON: I think the reason why is because he's the actual president right now, and he is most likely by all indications going to be the Democratic nominee. I think if... Donald Trump actually becomes the nominee of the Republican Party, that age argument will start to fade a little bit more for both parties.

SINGLETON: Trump has been -- Trump has been careful with that as well. But I would say, I mean, I think the American people are pretty clear on where they stand on President Biden and his track record. They're not very happy.

Now, the White House has argued that jobs are better, inflation is going down, but when you look at the numbers more closely, that's not exactly true. Energy is going up, commodities is a problem. Sure, you may have a job, but wages have an increase with inflation. These are very real things that the American people are filling. And touting numbers doesn't tout what people see in their bank accounts. I think the president's going to have to speak to those things.

ALLISON: I think he is going to have to meet voters where they are. Americans are still suffering, but he has a plan. He is lowering inflation. He is siding with workers to try and get wages increased. But he also has social policies like abortion and like the culture wars that Ron DeSantis really is playing Donald Trump 2.0 on many issues that the overwhelming majority of Democrats and Republicans support Joe Biden and the Democrats on.

BROWN: All right, stand by. We have more to discuss. Up next, could we soon be seeing more shorts on the Senate floor? It's possible, and that's all because Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is changing the dress code and he's being mocked for it. We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:52:51]

BROWN: The Senate's dressing down, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says the informal dress code will no longer be enforced. That means men are no longer required to wear a suit and tie. It's seen as a nod to Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman who likes to wear shorts and a hoodie to work as you see. Schumer's move is facing some backlash.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON DESANTIS (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The U.S. Senate just eliminated its dress code because you got this guy from Pennsylvania who's got a lot of problems. He wears like sweat shirts and hoodies and shorts and that's his thing. We need to be lifting up our standards in this country, not dumbing down our standards in this country. And this is an example why.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: John Fetterman wasted no time responding. He tweeted back at DeSantis writing, quote, "I dress how he campaigns." Back with Ashley Allison and Shermichael Singleton. All right, to both of you, does a dress code for members of Senate matter for you? Absolutely it matters. I think decorum and standards matter.

Professionalism indicates one's respect for the institutions and the values and this lowering of standards to me, it's not a good thing. I'll use this quick example before we hand it over to Ashley. I went to Morehouse College for undergrad.

At Morehouse every single week, all of the guys had to wear a suit and tie for crown form. It was mandatory. And it was about respect for each other, respect for the individual, and also respect for the history of the institution. And I would like to see that in my United States senators.

ALLISON: I will say that I think there is a big spectrum between a suit and tie and a hoodie in terms of fashion. And so, a suit and tie is not the only way to show professionalism. I also think that, you know, I come from a family about Sunday's best and, you know, the way you present yourself.

But this also could be a generational thing that, you know, many voters, young voters particularly, they don't really care how you show up. Fashion is changing. They want to see what you're doing and how you're governing.

So, is this a priority for me right now and many Americans? Probably not. If the other thing is like this is who John Fetterman is. He is not changing for the Senate and there's something I do respect about it. But you know, I can understand why you want to change for everyone.

[22:55:00]

SINGLETON: No, I don't want to wear this tie right now. But I respect you and I respect you as a host and I have decorum.

BROWN: But you don't have to -- I have a secret. I don't like wearing heels and I'm wearing Converse sneakers right now. Okay? But I wear -- for the camera.

ALLISON: Yeah, I mean, you can still wear suit and tie even if the rules change. It doesn't have to change what your dress code is. It just allows some expansion for more people.

SINGLETON: A special rule for him, not the entire body, I would say.

BROWN: All right, we settled it. All right, Shermichael Singleton, Ashley Allison, thank you so much. Well, an emotional revelation about Chris Rock after Will Smith slapped him on the Oscar stage. Remember that? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:00:02]

BROWN: It was the slap scene around the world when actor Will Smith struck comedian Chris Rock at the Academy Awards ceremony in 2022. Long-time friend to Rock, Leslie Jones, tells "People" Magazine that Rock was so humiliated that he sought counseling with his two daughters who witnessed the attack, as did Chris Rock's parents.

Smith slapped Rock after the comedian made a joke about Jada Pinkett Smith's bald head, which is caused by alopecia. And due to the backlash, Will Smith resigned from the Academy, as you may recall, which has barred him from the Oscars for 10 years. Well, that's it for me in CNN Primetime. CNN Tonight with Laura Coates starts right now. Hey, Laura.