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Senate, House On Collision Course As Shutdown Looms; Judge Says, Trump Is Liable After Committing Fraud For Years; Ex-Aide Says Trump Is Most Grave Threat To Democracy; CNN's Abby Phillip Plays Jake Tapper's Interview With Former Mark Meadows Aide Cassidy Hutchinson. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 26, 2023 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:00:09]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: The Supreme Court issuing a clear message to the state of Alabama today that essentially boiled down to we're not doing this again, the court rejecting requests from state officials in their attempt to sidestep creating a second black majority congressional district in the state, which the court ruled back in June that they must do.

The justices denying that request for intervention from the state with just a single sentence, no recorded vote, no dissent.

Alabama has been ordered to come up with two majority black districts or something quite close to that to better represent the state's 27 percent black population. The map that Republicans offered still only had one majority black district. But with this decision today, Alabama will now have, beyond its way, to having a new map in time for the 2024 election, something that could have national implications.

Thank you so much for joining us for this busy news hour tonight, CNN Primetime with Abby Phillip starts right now.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Tonight, we are going to play for you Jake Tapper's entire interview with Cassidy Hutchinson.

She's the former Trump aide whose testimony may end up leading to his conviction. She discusses there her tumultuous time in the White House, her biggest fear about a Trump second term, and her message to anyone who is still loyal to the former president. But, first, we have two breaking stories that are unfolding right now.

Good evening, everyone. I'm Abby Phillips.

And the very first one that impacts all Americans tonight, the United States government is just days away from a crippling government shutdown and a collision course is emerging. The Senate has cut a bipartisan deal to keep the government open until November. And that includes more than $6 billion in aid to Ukraine.

But it does appear that that bill is dead on arrival in the House. As you know now, Republicans have been fighting with each other. Hardliners want drastic cuts to spending, which includes more money for border security and less for Ukraine.

Now, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, who is, by the way, fighting for his job, says that the House's counteroffer will include a border security package. But for some, including Congressman Matt Gaetz, that is not enough.

Now, remember, if the government shuts down, key agencies and national parks will all be closed, service men and women will be at risk of not being paid, and everyday life will be impacted for all Americans, from food inspections to lines at the airport.

And joining me now is Congressman Ralph Norman. He's a Republican from South Carolina. Congressman, thank you for joining us tonight.

Speaker McCarthy just a few moments ago in a presser said that it was a mistake for the Senate to include even more funding for Ukraine and he's dismissing that stopgap measure that they've put on the table. He says that he's going to put forward a Republican bill with border provisions likely as soon as Friday and he's daring hardliners to vote against it. What do you say to McCarthy tonight?

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): Well, I agree with what the Senate put forward with $6.5 billion for Ukraine, $5.2 billion, from what I understand, for disaster relief, and then the same spending through November 15th of this year, which is totally unacceptable, and along with all the other spending that has been in place. So that's a complete dead on arrival, I hope, in the House.

As far as what Speaker McCarthy had, we'll see what the final numbers are. I don't know what level he wants to propose but we'll see.

PHILLIP: Would you support a stopgap measure to keep the government funded for a shorter period of time until they have more time to consider some of these other longer term spending bills?

NORMAN: It's got to be what limits we're going to agree to and at what amount. We'll learn more about that tomorrow. But, look, this is all about -- we're doing this the right way although it's a little late. We're discussing -- we're debating the individual preparation bills, as it should be. This is all about getting this country back on track.

You hear a lot of different things the Democrats are saying. They don't mind spending this country into oblivion and we just have a basic disagreement on that.

PHILLIP: You said a few days ago that the chances of a shutdown were 100 percent today. Where do you think things stand?

NORMAN: Well, we'll find out this week.

PHILLIP: You only have about four or five more days now. It's not a lot of time.

NORMAN: No, it's not. But, you know, the fact is we're debating the bills and we've got them on the floor. We've got 400 amendments, which has really been unheard of in the previous reign of Ms. Pelosi.

[22:05:01]

So, we'll see. I mean, it's a -- you know, the shutdown -- we have to remember the government shut the businesses down back during the COVID virus for a year-and-a-half. They shut children out of schools. So, now, if we cut shut the government down, the pressure has still has to be on passing these appropriation bills in a conservative way and one that gets this country back on a firm financial footing, which we're not on right now.

PHILLIP: So, your colleague, Congressman Matt Gaetz, he is once again today threatening to oust Speaker McCarthy. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): The one thing I agree with my Democrat colleagues on is that for the last eight months, this House has been poorly led, and we own that and we have to do something about it. And you know what? My Democrat colleagues will have an opportunity to do something about that too and we will see if they bail out our failed speaker.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Do you agree with Congressman Gaetz there?

NORMAN: Well, here's what I agree on. I think, you know, the September 30th date has always been there. October 1 has been the start of the new budget year for 240 years, as far as I remember. And I don't remember that far back. But, bottom line, we should have had them in June or July spending and getting the budget in a priority just has not been a priority for the speaker, and I fought him for that.

Now, he'll have to decide where he wants to go from here. What is he going to take a stand on? And is he going to fight the Senate? What the Senate sends back? And we've got a lot to fight for. And we control the purse strings, not the Senate.

PHILLIP: Do you think that this issue is enough to force a vote to oust Speaker McCarthy?

NORMAN: Well, it depends on what he puts forward tomorrow and what he wants to do as far as the C.R. And we're going to have to have some honest discussions to see. And I don't know because we don't know the numbers yet.

And that's what we've asked for since July 10th when the Freedom of Congress sent a letter. And that's what we still don't know what the agreement is going to be. We wanted a $1.47. They've talked about a $5.2 trillion, so we'll see. But what the Senate has is totally out of reality, and I hope the leadership will fight this tooth and nail and get them back something that is conservative and far less what they're proposing.

PHILLIP: Well, both sides, the Senate and the House, still incredibly far apart tonight, as we speak here. Congressman Ralph Norman, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

NORMAN: My pleasure.

PHILLIP: And our other big story tonight, Donald Trump's entire business and political career has been built on the illusion of success. But tonight, his business empire is now at risk. A judge in New York finding that the former president and his two adult sons are liable for fraud and canceling the Trump Organization's business certification in the state of New York.

Now, the judge says that Trump made false financial statements for a decade, inflating their worth, defrauding banks, and in turn, receiving better loan terms and insurance costs, all of this just days before the New York attorney general's suit, is set to go to a trial.

Joining me now is someone who knows a lot about the Trump Organization, Barbara Res. She's a former executive vice president at the Trump Organization, and she's also the author of Tower of Lies, What My 18 Years Working with Donald Trump Reveals About Him.

Barbara, can Donald Trump and the Trump Organization survive this ruling?

BARBARA A. RES, FORMER EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: You know, I've been asked that question so many times about different things. Logically, no, it doesn't look logic, but somehow he pulls things out of the air. I don't think, I don't think that the Trump Organization is going to survive this one, but you never know.

PHILLIP: You were in charge of the construction of Trump Tower, that iconic building in New York. The judge says that Trump's triplex apartment in Trump Tower was overvalued by between $114 to $207 million due to Trump saying that the apartment was three times its size. Does that surprise you at all?

RES: Does it? No, no, absolutely not. Because he says, you know, everything about Trump Tower was a blown up, big blown up, why we sold the most apartments, we got the highest numbers, everything was incorrect. It was just whatever he thought he could get away with and he could get away with anything, it seemed.

PHILLIP: Did you see evidence of --

RES: (INAUDIBLE).

PHILLIP: Did you see evidence of these kinds of deceptive practices when you were a part of the Trump Organization?

RES: Yes, yes, I did. But it's kind of like a different -- it wasn't on the level of criminality or, you know, this high club (ph) crimes, if you want to call it, civil crimes that he's done.

[22:10:01]

It was more like stuff that really didn't -- lies, but they weren't something that somebody was going to sue him for. PHILLIP: Can you give us an example?

RES: Well, silly things, like the materials in the building, in the apartments. I'd say that you have these parquet wood floors, especially, they were crap. I mean, I'm sorry to say this, they were glued down one foot by one foot tiles. He said the marble in the bathrooms was, you know, (INAUDIBLE) a DCL and it was agglomerate marble was made up, it wasn't real marble. And then that just goes on and on and on.

But, you know, who's going to call on that? And, you know, in the beginning, most of the people changed all the junk we put in there. So, it didn't really matter.

PHILLIP: That's really fascinating. Yes.

RES: I was just going to say, as far as the value, I mean, you know, he did triple the value of everything. You know, he lied. We sell an apartment for a million dollars. He said we sold it for three.

PHILLIP: There's also the issue of Mar-a-Lago and all of this overvalued by 2,300 percent. Do you think, just taking a step back here, that were not for these deceptive practices, would Donald Trump be where he is today in terms of his political standing, in terms of his financial wealth?

RES: It's not only these deceptive practices. It's lying on a very, very large scale. And, you know, you could see it in his presidency. He got away with this, so then he moved on to this. And it was the same thing what you're talking about now.

He could get away with overvaluing something like 20 percent, 100 percent, 1,000 percent. He just kept doing it.

PHILLIP: Barbara Res, that's very interesting. Thank you. You're someone who was inside of this organization, working closely with Trump for all those years. I appreciate you joining us tonight.

RES: My pleasure to talk to you.

PHILLIP: And coming up next, Jake Tapper's entire interview with former Trump Aide Cassidy Hutchinson and her candid revelations about what she saw inside of the White House, what Mark Meadows did and why she says that Trump is the single gravest threat to our democracy. That's next.

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[22:15:55]

PHILLIP: Tonight, former White House Aide Cassidy Hutchinson is warning in a new CNN interview that a second Trump term would be more dangerous than the first, telling our own Jake Tapper that the former president is, quote, the gravest threat to American democracy.

Here is part one of our of our sit-down with Cassidy Hutchinson. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Cassidy, thanks so much for joining us. I appreciate it.

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: Thank you for having me, Jake.

TAPPER: So, a few years ago, Donald Trump, President Trump was a man you describe in your book as adoring and now you are doing this book tour in which you tell the story from childhood to your courageous testimony, and you are basically warning the world that he shouldn't be president ever again. A, that's quite a journey, and, B, why shouldn't he be president ever again?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I would like to start by saying that I came forward to testify because, one, that was what I was obligated to do. I swore an oath to protect and defend the United States, and that was what I was subpoenaed to do. And I was at a point where I had not been completely forthcoming with the committee charged with investigating the most grave attack on the United States in recent history.

So, I came forward not with the goal or anything other than providing people with the truth. I've seen how people are evading the truth and how people are not holding themselves accountable. And it was my duty as an American, as it is every American's duty, to hold themselves to the oath that they swear.

TAPPER: Yes. But right now, the American people are going through another election, or about to, and we -- Donald Trump is leading in the polls when it comes to the Republican primaries, even in some polls when it comes to a head-to-head matchup with President Biden.

The other day, Trump suggested that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the outgoing chairman, General Mark Milley, committed treason. He suggested that capital punishment would be on the table or should be on the table.

When you see a message like that, how seriously do you take it? I mean, Milley has suggested to people, according to The Atlantic Magazine, that he expects if Donald Trump is elected president again, that Donald Trump will try to go after him. When you see that, do you think he means it or do you think, oh, that's just hot air?

HUTCHINSON: I do, Jake. I think that we have seen firsthand --

TAPPER: You think he means it?

HUTCHINSON: Yes, I do believe that he means it. Now, what I would like to say to this is, I think, for years, we have not held Donald Trump accountable to the things that he says. And when he says those things and when he strikes -- when he strokes those vitriolic comments to people who have had profound careers defending our democracy, like General Milley, we need to take him seriously.

People have been holding him accountable for the past few years, but obviously not accountable enough because we are in a position right now where it's looking more likely than not that he could be the Republican nominee. And he has also been indicted four times.

To me, it is sad that we're in this place as a country where we are looking at somebody who has executed this horrible assault on our democracy, and we are continuing to give this person a platform. That's not what we should stand for as Americans.

And I think that Donald Trump is the most grave threat that we will face -- face to our democracy in our lifetime, and potentially in American history.

TAPPER: When he says things like he wants to use the Department of Justice to go after his enemies, when he says things like he did on Truth Social the other day that he wants to curtail freedom of the press for certain channels and that sort of thing, you take him literally. You think he actually means it in a second term, he would do that?

HUTCHINSON: I think that Donald Trump in a second term does not have any -- would not have guardrails. I think we saw that at the end of the first term with how things played out after he lost the election. He violated our Constitution in multiple ways.

It is completely fine to wage or to file lawsuits in countries or in states.

[22:20:00]

But what is not okay is when you threaten and assault the Constitution and our institutions of government. I would not put it past Donald Trump, Jake, to put those institutions of government in a worse position that they were in during the first term.

TAPPER: So, as you noted, he's now facing 91 felony charges and four different investigations. He's been indicted four times. You've testified in front of the Georgia Grand Jury. You were interviewed by federal investigators overseeing the January 6th investigation and indictment and the classified documents case and indictment. How do you feel about the charges he's facing?

I mean, I know you're not a lawyer, but I know that you also read these documents. When you look at the evidence and then when you hear his excuses or his defense, I mean, do you think he's guilty?

HUTCHINSON: I want to hold off on providing my personal opinions on that and only because, you know, I -- and with the platform that I think we all should look towards and the platform at least that I am trying to adopt in this era of my life is, you know, it is sometimes just as dangerous to speculate about what could be going on behind closed doors at the Justice Department.

I am confident in our system of government and I think that we have to leave it to the investigators to be able to collect the facts. And that is why I came forward and testified truthfully to all the investigations. I think that if he is convicted, then that is a conviction that we need to accept as Americans and we need to trust our institutions of government.

But I will say this too, Jake, I think these are the people that were running our government at the end of the Trump administration.

TAPPER: Yes, the most loyal of loyal Trump people.

HUTCHINSON: The most loyal of loyal Trump people and who have also been indicted. Some of these individuals have also been indicted. We have to think what would a second Trump term look like. Would these be the people that are running the government, the people that are currently facing indictments? Who would work for Donald Trump in a second term? That's the question that we need to be asking ourselves going into this election season.

TAPPER: Well, let's talk about Mark Meadows, who was the White House chief of staff, and you were basically the chief of staff to the chief of staff. You write in your book that in one of the first conversations you had with Meadows in the White House, he said to you, Cass, if I can get through this job and manage to keep him out of jail, meaning Donald Trump, I'll have done a good job.

A, when he said that, did you think he meant that literally? And, B, do you think that your testimony might actually result in Donald Trump going to jail?

HUTCHINSON: In that moment when Mark said that to me, it was more of a wake-up call, a moment where I sort of felt frightened for the first time, but also concerned about Mark. When you're in this job, and I think people -- it's difficult to put this into words, especially if you don't have people who are willing to be forthcoming and honest about the positions that you occupy in government, but especially in the Trump administration and in 2020. Every day was a hair on fire day. We were swimming to stay afloat, but most of us were drowning.

So, when Mark said that that day, I was alarmed because it was one of those moments for me where I was thinking, like, I thought that I had a grasp on what was going on and I realized I didn't. But I did take Mark seriously in that moment. And in that moment, for me, in my service to Mark, I wanted to make sure that I did whatever I could to help Mark achieve his goal --

TAPPER: To keep Trump out of jail?

HUTCHINSON: Correct. And but that's also something that's I worked through a lot in the book, was it's not the staff's job to control a president who might end up in prison. I think that's one of the more unfortunate things that we have sort of gravitated to as a society where this is normal now. It's not normal, but it has been perceived as being normal now.

What was the other --

TAPPER: Well, the other question was, do you think that your testimony might ultimately result in Donald Trump going to prison?

HUTCHINSON: I came forward to testify with the information that I knew and most of the information that I knew could be corroborated by other people. I hope that what I testified to would cause other people to come forward and testify truthfully.

TAPPER: So, you and Meadows were close at one point, I know. And in the Georgia case, as you noted, kind of, you alluded to, he's now facing criminal charges. He has pleaded not guilty.

Let's show the mug shot of Mark Meadows.

When you see that photo, and that's -- I mean, in some ways, I'm sure for people who love Mark Meadows or who loved him at one time, that's a tragic photo for other people who don't like Mark Meadows. It's not, I'm sure. What goes through your mind when you look at that picture?

HUTCHINSON: I see someone that didn't have to be in this position. You know, I see that picture and I feel sorry for him in some ways because he had a lot of opportunities to do the right thing and to come forward.

[22:25:10]

You know, he's a man that has a family. And that's also another unfortunate impact of all of this is when you are in Donald Trump's circle and you have that loyalty to him, it impacts your life in more ways than one can imagine.

And, you know, I hope that Mark is doing the right thing if he hasn't already been doing the right thing, as what I define the right thing.

TAPPER: You hope he's cooperating with investigators.

HUTCHINSON: I hope that he would cooperate and uphold the oath that he swore, because he knows a lot more than I know about what happened during the November 2020 through January 2021 period.

TAPPER: Yes, it doesn't seem like he's cooperating with the Georgia case, but it's this -- we don't know if he's cooperating with federal investigators. That seems to be this unanswered question.

Looking at the Republican Party going forward and whether or not the Republican Party nominates Donald Trump, he's clearly far and ahead in the lead in polls right now, but I want to play this moment from the first Republican primary debate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? Please raise your hand if you would.

TAPPER: That's the first debate. The second one is tomorrow. And, basically, the only candidates that said they would not support Donald Trump if he were a felon, a convicted felon, were Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie.

Asa Hutchinson did not make the debate stage for tomorrow night. So, Chris Christie will be the only Republican candidate on the debate stage tomorrow night who said he would not vote for Donald Trump if he were a convicted felon. And he's also really the only one who's been outspoken in his criticism of Donald Trump when it comes to January 6th.

What does it say to you about Donald Trump's hold on the Republican Party?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I want to point out something that's really critical that you just said, Jake, and that's that if Donald Trump is tried and convicted, that wasn't asking if he -- Bret Baier did not ask if he is still going through the trial --

TAPPER: Right, exactly, yes.

HUTCHINSON: -- if he is a convicted felon.

And the counts that Donald Trump is currently facing, he is facing counts of obstructing the Constitution. To me, that is disqualifying. Donald Trump should be disqualified for being the president of the United States. To me, that's not a question.

When I watched that, then I watched that debate and I was hopeful about several of the candidates on that stage, I thought a lot of them had good forward-thinking answers and I could -- at that -- in the beginning of the debate, I could sort of see a light at the end of the tunnel with this.

TAPPER: Who besides your fellow New Jersey resident, Chris Christie?

HUTCHINSON: I had a lot of hope with Nikki Haley. I thought that she had very intelligent and well-flushed out answers on things, even Mike Pence. Yes, I was really disappointed when I saw Mike Pence raise his hand.

And, you know, Jake, I think Donald Trump has such a grip on these people, and sometimes I can't quite put my finger on why. Why is it so easy for these people to go along with this? Why is it so easy for these people to say that what he's doing is okay? Because to me, in that moment, they're saying that they're conceding that they're okay with waging a war on our Constitution.

That is not a Republican value. That is not an American value. Those are the types of candidates that we're looking at for 2024, though.

TAPPER: I want to ask about Kevin McCarthy. You, at one point, were very close to him in the book. You call him Kevin. I mean, you were on a first-name basis with him. He wasn't the speaker at the time, but he was the House majority leader -- I'm sorry, minority leader for the Republicans.

But near the end of the book, you write about being disillusioned with McCarthy. You say, I started to sense a significant shift in Kevin. But what's this shift? What happened to McCarthy, in your view?

HUTCHINSON: I think that Kevin had an opportunity after January 6th, as did Mitch McConnell, as did all the elected officials in Congress that are Republicans, to denounce what happened on January 6th and work against Trump still having a stronghold on the Republican Party.

Kevin was fairly outspoken in the days after January 6th about how it was wrong. But then after the former president left office, McCarthy went down to Mar-a-Lago. And, to me, that was sort of the beginning of that transformation where we kind of were able to observe that nothing is going to change.

You know, I still have a lot of respects for Kevin. I hope for the best for him as the speaker, especially as we see the chaos that's happening on Capitol Hill right now. But I'm not confident that he's a good leader for the Republican Party because he is a talking head for Donald Trump. Kevin hasn't taken a strong stand against it, and I'm confident that Kevin knows all of this is wrong.

TAPPER: You know, a few days after the election, McCarthy -- and, look, you were in the White House and I'm sure you didn't see everything.

[22:30:04]

But just a few days after the election --

HUTCHINSON: Thankfully.

TAPPER: -- he went on. Kevin McCarthy went on Fox and said Donald Trump won in the landslide. I mean --

HUTCHINSON: The day of the -- the day of the January 6th he also --

TAPPER: He voted to -- yeah, to disenfranchise Pennsylvania and Arizona. I mean, he was part of the big lie along with everybody else.

HUTCHINSON: No, you're not wrong on that, Jake, but I think even if we look at the Senate with Senator McConnell, they brought an impeachment trial against the former president. If Senator McConnell had wanted to get the 10 votes, he would not be facing this issue right now. He could have likely whipped 10 votes in the Senate to make sure that Donald Trump could never be president again.

And this is just the plague that has, unfortunately, infiltrated throughout the entire Republican Party. And I'm not confident that the Republican Party is going to continue to exist, at least the Republican Party that I have known and the Republican Party that I originally came to be a part of.

TAPPER: So, let's talk about January 6th, because one of the things you really brought to everyone's attention in your testimony was how much Donald Trump wanted to go to the Capitol on January 6th, demanded to go to the Capitol on January 6th. And I think one of the big questions that I have is why? What did he want to do at the Capitol?

HUTCHINSON: You know, I can't speculate. I heard several things.

TAPPER: You can't speculate. You have more information.

HUTCHINSON: But I could -- but that wouldn't be responsible because definitively I don't know what he wanted to do that day.

TAPPER: But what are some ideas?

HUTCHINSON: What I would know is there's a reason that he wanted to go to the Capitol. There's a reason he wanted to be with his supporters. And Donald Trump also knows the impact that his words have, and he knows the impact that his presence has on his supporters. He knows that he himself wiles people up. He knew that the crowd was armed that day. He knew that there were people angry about this.

So, I -- knowing Donald Trump, knowing what I knew inside the White House, that was not a mistake. He did not want to just go to the Capitol to go there and make a little speech and then go back to the White House. There was a reason that he wanted to go there. And again, I would like to restate that Donald Trump knows the impact of his words.

So, when he, on January 6th, when he wanted to go to the Capitol, everything -- that was intentional. The Mark Milley tweet that you earlier mentioned from this past weekend, he knows the impact that those words will have. He knows that people will come out and be violent against these people, and that's what he wants.

TAPPER: Yeah. I mean, there will be -- there will be, if there are not already, death threats against Milley --

HUTCHINSON: Oh, absolutely.

TAPPER: Because, yeah. During the Capitol attack, you heard Meadows say that then President Trump didn't want to do anything to stop it. We heard the chants, "Hang Mike Pence", "Hang Mike Pence". And what did Meadows say about "Hang Mike Pence"? What did you overhear?

HUTCHINSON: This is when the former White House counsel came into our office and Pat had said that -- Pat Cipollone -- Pat had said that they needed to go down to the Oval Dining Room where the president was. The rioters had gotten into the Capitol. And Mark had relayed it to Pat Cipollone, something to the effect of, you heard him, Pat, he doesn't want to do anything.

TAPPER: He doesn't want to do anything.

HUTCHINSON: He doesn't want to do anything.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP: And still ahead, more of Jake's interview with Cassidy Hutchinson, including how she turned up to work the day after January 6th. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:37:26]

PHILLIP: Despite what Cassidy Hutchinson witnessed on January 6th, she did show up to work the very next day. Hutchinson tells Jake Tapper why she found it so difficult to ultimately break away from Trump world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TAPPER: So, on the morning of January 7th, you still went to work.

HUTCHINSON: I did.

TAPPER: And this is one of the things that I think -- that some of your critics on the left or, you know, never-Trumpers who are Republicans say like, you know, you see your friend, Alyssa Griffin, Alyssa Farah Griffin go on TV.

She's denouncing January 6th. Sarah Matthews, Stephanie Grisham, Secretary DeVos, Secretary Chao, others resigned that day. Secretary Mnuchin, you write in your book, was considering invoking the 25th Amendment. You continued to work there. Tell me why you went back, because obviously you feel very passionately about this, and you've been very brave in your testimony, but you still on January 7th went back to work.

HUTCHINSON: No, I did. And you know, I wish I had a glossy, and short cookie cutter answer for you, Jake, but it's something that I still struggle with to this day. But I will say, and I would like to also reference what Alyssa did on that day, Alyssa Farah Griffin. I remember sitting in the office and I was very outspoken on January 6th and every day after that I strongly disagreed with what happened.

TAPPER: Right, internally, yes.

HUTCHINSON: Correct, internally. But when I saw Alyssa on TV that day, it was this moment for me where I sort of felt that split because on one hand, I was very upset with her. You know, she was one of my closest friends and I was upset with her for a variety of reasons. But the one that I think is the most potent for this conversation is I felt that she, what she did that day was disloyal.

TAPPER: Right.

HUTCHINSON: And saying that now with the hindsight and the experience that I've had sounds ludicrous.

TAPPER: Well, but it's an honest answer, I appreciate that.

HUTCHINSON: But it is. And I think that's the important part of this transformation period for me, because on the other hand, when I saw her there, there was a little bit of envy. You know, I was proud of her for doing what she felt that she had to be doing and for using her voice. And I give Alyssa a lot of credit.

You know, I eventually came to her side and she was the one that welcomes me. She was the first person that actually welcomed me and helped me get to this point. But I say all of this, Jake, because I did struggle with what I should do. I had committed to moving to Florida with the former president. And again, it's that push-pull inside of me where on one hand, I felt that January 6 happened because we, the staff, didn't do enough to stop it. [22:40:00]

HUTCHINSON: That we, the staff, should have not let people around him that would have stroked this desire for him to overturn the election on January 6.

TAPPER: You say in the book that you felt complicit. I mean, you're honest about that.

HUTCHINSON: Right. Correct. Yes. But then there's the other side of me where I -- I was afraid to look disloyal. I was afraid to split from the world because once you're in that environment and have the access and have the insight and knowledge that you do, you sort of feel like there's a target on your back.

So, I did not move to Florida with him, but I stayed on payroll with him for several months after the end of the administration. And I still had that, the moral dilemma inside of me through that whole period. And I just --

TAPPER: So, the push-pull -- one pull is doing the right thing.

HUTCHINSON: Correct.

TAPPER: And then the other pole is loyalty and fear.

HUTCHINSON: Correct.

TAPPER: Is that right?

HUTCHINSON: That -- that's fairly accurate. I also would like to say though. You know I -- before I was subpoenaed by the January 6 Committee, I did work to slowly start to separate. I wanted to start a new chapter in my career because I disagreed with not only what happened on January 6th, but I saw the trajectory of Republican politics. And I didn't want to be a direct part of that for the most part.

Again, it was difficult. And I'm not trying to make excuses. I don't have a hero's complex over here. I know a lot of what I did was wrong, but you know, I got to where I am today. But it was an important year for me because I was able to look back and reflect on things that, one, that I was complicit in, but also understand the dangers of what we were doing at the White House.

TAPPER: One of the other things that you overhear Trump say is when the Supreme Court refuses to hear that case from Texas, that wild case from Texas that has all these lies and things from Ken Paxton, the Attorney General of Texas and Trump is livid and he starts yelling at Meadows, we should have made more calls, we should have done this, we should have done that, I don't know exactly what could have been done, it's a Supreme Court, but -- then Trump says, "I don't want people to know we lost, it's embarrassing." I mean, that's potentially of significance legally, if he knows that he lost.

HUTCHINSON: Correct, but you know, that's -- and I elaborate this on this in my testimony too, where, you know, I can't climb inside the former president's mind and know exactly what he was thinking. But it's not just me that has come forward with information like that. General Milley has also said that he was in the former president's presence when he admitted that he lost Alyssa Farah Griffin, as well.

You know, I can't speculate about his actual mindset and his motivations behind this, but in that moment it was clear to me that there was some concession. And I would also like to point out, Jake, that the president directed Mark to begin declassifying the crossfire hurricane documents before January 6th happened, because he was worried that those documents would never get declassified under a Biden administration.

So, you know, there was a mentality in that era of just, chaos, to be frank, and it's happening in the West Wing of the White House. You know, it wasn't lost on people that Joe Biden had won the election and that he had won the election and it was a free and fair election. But yet January 6th still happened.

TAPPER: One of the things I wonder, because you talk about this journey, and I don't want to belittle it, but it does sound like leaving a cult. I mean, it really does, because it's like difficult for you to leave. You're talking about loyalty and you're talking about fear of what happens to you if you leave. And you're also talking about doing the right thing.

And again, I'm not trying to belittle it at all, but it does sound like when people talk about leaving a cult, it does sound like that. But then there also is this inflection point where you're basically told you're not coming down to Florida to join the president's staff at Mar-a-Lago, which is too bad.

HUTCHINSON: The former president thought I was insufficiently loyal.

TAPPER: Yeah, because you were insufficiently loyal. I guess they thought you were leaking some stuff, which, by the way, maybe you would have helped them avoid the classified documents scandal because you were --

HUTCHINSON: I did my best in everything that I was asked, Jake.

TAPPER: So, but one of the things I wonder is, do you ever think that if they had let you go down to Mar-a-Lago, what would have happened? Like, would you have testified? You would have been subpoenaed, probably, but like, would history have turned out differently? Would the push-pull still have gone on? Would you still have done the right thing if you were down in Mar-a-Lago? Like, what is that alternative history?

HUTCHINSON: I guess my short answer is I don't know because that's not what played out.

TAPPER: It's not what happened. Obviously, you did the right thing. You did the right thing.

[22:45:00] I don't mean to belittle anything --

HUTCHINSON: No, no, you're not belittling.

TAPPER: It's just --

HUTCHINSON: Look, I haven't ever been -- you say this, I have not been in a cult. I mean, we can sit here and debate whether the MAGA movement is a cult.

TAPPER: No, no, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. But the way you describe it is, it sounds like it.

HUTCHINSON: Correct. But what I will say on that is I -- I would hope that I would have come forward to do the right thing still. But when you're in that environment, it becomes a lot more difficult. And I did get brought back into that environment and for a short period of time when I first began doing my depositions with the committee. But I didn't feel empowered to comply completely.

And also, Jake, if I'm being completely candid and frank, you know, I still felt that loyalty to him at the end of the administration. And I worried that if I had gone down to Florida, that would have only grown and I would not have come forward. And whether or not what I testified to you changes the trajectory of any investigation, I fulfilled what I was obligated to do under the oath that I swore to protect and defend the Constitution and the country. And I fulfilled the obligations of my subpoena.

So, to me, this is not about what I did and the impact that it has. For me, it's more about, I was able to maintain my character and my integrity after I retained new legal counsel who empowered me and showed me the importance of telling the whole truth. So, anybody that finds themselves in a situation like that, you know, I would just encourage them to listen to your conscience. And this moment's much bigger than us.

TAPPER: So, I guess the question, the big question then is this. What you did was the right thing. No question. But it was also, I think it's fair to say, more difficult. Right? And there probably are other Trump people who want to do the right thing, but they have their own Trump world lawyers, like you had, telling them to say, I don't recall, I don't recall, I don't recall, even though they could recall. And they're stuck. Why would they do the right thing? Do you regret doing the right thing ever?

HUTCHINSON: No, no.

TAPPER: Why not? I mean, I'm glad you did the right thing. Don't get me wrong.

HUTCHINSON: You don't have to. Look, I'm not asking for anybody to --

TAPPER: No, I think it's important to acknowledge that you did the right thing, but that's not the easier thing. HUTCHINSON: No, that's correct. And I also want to be clear though, as

I was writing the book with my fantastic collaborator, Mark Salter, who worked for John McCain for decades. And Mark and I had this conversation a lot too, though, about what it actually meant to break from Trump world. And Mark and I had a lot of profound conversations about this mentality that I still had to break.

I didn't write this book with the intention of trying to convince people that I did the right thing. I wrote this book with the intention to show my journey, and I don't love the word journey. It sounds a little like the bachelor, but the journey that I had of being a Trump world insider, I'm not a Democrat. I still consider myself a Republican, but I don't consider myself part of what the Republican Party largely identifies with today, which is the Trump Republican Party, in my opinion.

But in this period for me, you know, I've never once doubted my decision to come forward and be truthful and be honest. And I had a conversation with a member of Congress who is a Republican member of Congress that did not serve on the January 6th Committee.

TAPPER: This is the person with the pseudonym in your book?

HUTCHINSON: Yes, Sam.

TAPPER: Sam, right.

HUTCHINSON: Now, I've been very open with Sam throughout this period about how I was struggling. And we were on the phone one night. And Sam told me, he was like, go look in the mirror. I'll stay on the phone, go look in the mirror.

TAPPER: This is before you made your big decision.

HUTCHINSON: Correct. This is before I started back-shining to do guests. And I'm looking in the mirror, I'm on the phone with Sam, and he said to me, do you like what you're looking at? You're the only person that has to live with yourself for the rest of your life, nobody else has to.

Do you like what you're looking at? I don't mean your appearance, Cassidy. I mean, do you like the person that you are? And I hadn't liked who I was for a while. And I knew in that moment that I had to correct course for myself and come back to the person that I wanted to be and the person that I thought I saw myself becoming when I entered public service.

TAPPER: The book is "Enough". The author is Cassidy Hutchinson. Thanks so much for talking to us. Really appreciate it.

HUTCHINSON: Appreciate it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHILLIP: Really fascinating interview there with Cassidy Hutchinson. Let's discuss this with Sara Fisher, CNN Media Analyst and Senior Media Reporter for "Axios".

[22:50:00]

Also with us is CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon and Stuart Stevens, Senior Advisor at the Lincoln Project who is a former Republican Strategist and the author of the book, "The Conspiracy To End America". John, I want to start with you here. That last chunk of that exchange there really dug deep into the psyche of somebody who is clearly coming out of something.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah.

PHILLIP: A deep fog, perhaps. Jake asked if it felt like she was coming out of a cult. She said she didn't think it was a cult. What do you think?

AVALN: I think that that's a really important interview for people who are still under the sway of Donald Trump to watch and take in, because she talks about her process, where she felt so divided. She was being pulled to do the right thing, but still felt loyalty.

Her ego was wrapped up in Donald Trump, the defense of Donald Trump, understandably for someone who's worked in the White House, and yet was confronting lies that had led to an attack on the Capitol and witnessed those lies up close and their corrosive impact on her and the country.

She ultimately did move outside that hothouse that she lived in, but so many people are still in it. And the fact that she's one of many Trump officials who now say that Donald Trump is the gravest threat to democracy in our lifetime, possibly in American history, that's striking.

That calls for coming from within the House. And people who are still with Donald Trump and can't bring themselves to separate should look at people like Cassidy Hutchinson and realize that that's a sign of coming attractions.

PHILLIP: Yeah, I mean, she does have this very clear message in all of her media appearances, Sara. She says the guardrails will not be there a second time around. Do you think that that's going to have an impact where we are in our political moment?

SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Yeah, absolutely because if you think about it what she describes was so chaotic, was so off the rails if the guardrails that were there are not going to be around the second time around and it was that chaotic, that's what we would expect in the next presidency. But I also think in terms of a wider impact, what she represents is somebody who is speaking out in terms of the fear of what the MAGA community will do if you go out against Donald Trump.

The fact that she had to weigh doing what she knew was right versus not because she was scared about how she was going to be perceived, how she was going to be bullied online, how other Trump officials would label her, how they would talk about her in the media, that fear campaign speaks to a huge problem if other people in the Trump world ever want to come forward and if we as the public want to learn more, because we need people who were inside to come forward in order to get the full picture.

PHILLIP: Stuart, this is really, it seems to me, in your wheelhouse here, because what she's describing is what it feels like to be cast out. And what happens to people like Cassidy Hutchinson when all of the lights come down on this book tour? And she really has only herself, and as she said in that last part of the clip, the person that she sees when she looks back in the mirror, what can she expect?

STUART STEVENS, SENIOR ADVISER, LINCOLN PROJECT: I think she's going to have a much cleaner soul and a much happier life for doing what she's doing. You know, what impresses me the most about this interview is her accepting responsibility. It's something I felt.

You know, I helped elect a lot of these people who then went, I never would have believed it, went and supported Trump. And you know, one of the things that you made the Republican Party was a sense of personal responsibility which turned out to be, you know, just a marketing slogan for the party.

But I believe when I wrote a book, I said blame me because I helped elect these people. And I think that's something that all of us who helped build this Republican Party after as this isn't about Donald Trump. Donald Trump is just this weird god from Queens, it ran for president. It's the Republican Party accepted him and made him president.

And all of these people that now come out and say, well, what happened on January 6 is so terrible. I mean, Trump was a terrible person before that. And how many of these people would still be working for him if he was re-elected? A lot of them. I don't think Cassidy Hutchinson would. But a lot of these political figures.

And when you see where the party is, where the majority overwhelmingly of the party is where Trump is. It's not about Donald Trump. It's about some deep failure and corruption and collapse of a party, unlike anything we've seen in American history.

TAPPER: Just to add on what Stuart says, and he's been eloquent about this for a long time. It's about not just party over country, but power over principle. And what you witnessed, I think, in that interview was a process of deradicalization that Cassidy Hutchinson went under, where group identity is enforced by trying to keep people in the group. And when they step outside, you punish them. You try to turn them into examples to reinforce group cohesion.

[22:55:00]

And the fact that Trump's where he is in the Republican Party today, they're on the verge of renominating him, that's what I think is so dangerous. When you see former Trump acolytes warning the loudest, the people know him best, warning the most about the damage it could do to our country. That's what's so stark.

FISCHER: But it's also just to flag on that, it's not just the people in Trump's inner circle that are going to make you feel like that. It's a broader community of people who have latched onto this movement, trolls online, people who don't know Donald Trump, who've never worked for him. That to me is almost the scarier part about removing yourself, because there's such a huge, you know, swarm of people that are going to come after you. It's not just the people that you can name in a room that you worked with at one point.

PHILLIP: And it's perhaps fair to ask whether it's even about only Trump anymore, or the Trump movement that lives beyond him. Sara, John and Stuart, thank you all very much for joining us on all of that. And that's it for me here on CNN Prime Time. CNN Tonight with Laura Coates picks it up next with a big legal blow to former President Trump on the agenda after that New York judge found him liable for fraud. Stay with us.

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