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Senate Passes House Bill To Keep Government Open; Any Moment: Biden To Sign Senate Bill To Avert Shutdown. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 30, 2023 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[21:00:22]
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone. This is CNN special live coverage on a chaotic night, even by Washington standards. I'm Dana Bash live in the nation's capital. Here's the headline.
The United States government will not shut down, at least not for another 45 days. Right now, as you see on your screen, that is the United States Senate. It is voting as we speak to keep the government open. This is happening just hours before the deadline.
Senators are voting on a bill that passed the House earlier today. That bill not only continues the government spending levels, it includes disaster relief, but no money for Ukraine, no additional money for Ukraine or border security.
Now on the Senate side, which is where we are right now, there was some last minute drama. One senator held up a vote over concerns about the lack of Ukraine funding in this bill. But leaders Schumer and McConnell struck a deal. They vowed not to give up on support for the Ukrainians in the war against Russia.
But there's also more drama. The fate of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is uncertain at this time, as hardliners in his party are pushing for his ouster. And also in the House, Democrat Jamaal Bowman may be in some trouble after he appeared to pull a fire alarm at the Capitol. We're going to get into that in a moment.
But first, remember, tonight's deal, it only avoids a shutdown in the immediate future. In mid-November, it's quite possible we could be here talking about the same things all over again.
Let's get right to somebody who has not left the Capitol for -- I don't even know how long -- many, many hours, many days, our own Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju. So, Manu, at this point, we saw that the vote is open. It's been open on the Senate floor for quite some time. Are senators at dinner? Are they flying back in? Are they training back in? What's going on?
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The beauty of the United States Senate, these votes take a long time, as you know, Dana. The vote by paper ballots, they just, they're checking off name by name. Chuck Schumer, the Majority Leader keeps these votes open for a very long time, allowing senators to do just that, have dinner, go to fundraisers, come back and vote.
This vote is probably going to be called sometime soon, probably maybe in the next 20 minutes or so, maybe less, maybe a little bit longer, we'll see. But there's no question about this. They will have the votes to pass this bill to keep the government open for 45 days after a chaotic scramble to avoid a government shutdown, something that seemed almost certain was going to happen.
Just this morning when Kevin McCarthy, the speaker, went behind closed doors, they had talked about a in definite shutdown, trying to figure out ways to limit the impacts of a shutdown. But they changed their approach.
Kevin, for the first time, McCarthy decided to rely on Democratic votes to get this issue over the finish line, to extend government funding for 45 days, would not include any aid to Ukraine --
BASH: Manu, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is speaking. Let's listen.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: -- no government shutdown. Democrats have said from the start that the only solution for avoiding a shutdown is bipartisanship. And we're glad that Speaker McCarthy has finally heeded our message.
In the end, more Democrats supported this bill in the House than Republicans, proving bipartisanship was the best answer all along. I want to thank my colleagues here in the Senate, especially our appropriators, yourself Madam President, Susan Collins, and Leader McConnell.
Our bipartisan work in the Senate set the tone for the bill we're about to pass. Our bipartisanship made this possible and showed the House that they had to act. We will keep the government open for 45 days with a clean CR at current funding levels. And we avoided all of the extreme, nasty and harmful cuts MAGA Republicans wanted.
No 30 percent cuts across the board. No 30 percent cuts to things like health care, to the Social Security Administration, to the nutrition programs for kids. Full reauthorization of the FAA until December 31st. And the poison pill amendments, of which there were scores, MAGA inspired riders were all removed from the bill.
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After trying to take our government hostage, MAGA Republicans won nothing. So one more time, it is good Speaker McCarthy finally, finally heeded our message that bipartisanship was and is and remains the only way. He could have made this decision weeks ago.
Now I've said from day one, this is a bridge CR, a temporary solution, not the final destination. We will not stop fighting for more economic and security assistance for Ukraine. Majorities in both parties support Ukraine aid. And doing more is vital for America's security and for democracy around the world.
But this CR is still very good news for the American people. Today, MAGA extremists have failed. Bipartisanship has prevailed, and both parties have come together to avert a shutdown. Once again, thank you to Leader McConnell, Appropriations Chair Patty Murray, Vice Chair Susan Collins, and members on both sides of the aisle who came together.
Today's CR would not have been possible without the Senate's good work. The Senate showed that bipartisanship was the only way, and the same will be true again. In 45 days. I yield the floor. I do not yet yield the floor.
BASH: OK, we were just listening to the Senate Majority Leader, Chuck Schumer doing --
SCHUMER: -- to executive session to consider calendar 319.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Question is on the motion. All those in favor say aye.
SCHUMER: Aye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Opposed, nay. Ayes appear to have it. Ayes do have it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The motion is agreed to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Motions agreed to.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clerk report.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Clerk report.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nomination, Department of State, James C. O'Brien of Nebraska to be an assistant --
BASH: Manu, let's bring you back in. We just heard Chuck Schumer effectively talking at the end of the vote. We know that it passed and they're moving on to other things on the executive calendar. The substance of what he said was quite noteworthy because, yes, he's right, there was a big bipartisan vote and there is bipartisan support for Ukraine.
The fact that he sort of twisted a little bit in McCarthy when -- what we saw earlier today was McCarthy doing something in a bipartisan way. I wonder how that's going to go over on the Republican side, particularly in the House.
RAJU: Yes. And look, he's -- Schumer's saying there that McCarthy, quote, got nothing. That is the message from the Senate Majority Leader after McCarthy decided against moving forward with a proposal with spending cuts that he had tried to advance but was blocked by not just Democrats but some of those conservative hardliners who wanted to have even deeper spending cuts. This proposal only extends current funding for the federal government for another 45 days. Now, a little bit more on this vote, Dana. This vote was approved by an overwhelmingly on a bipartisan basis. 88 to 9 was the total on this vote.
There were nine votes against it. They were all Republicans, Marsha Blackburn, as well as Mike Braun, Ted Cruz, Senator Bill Hagerty, Mike Lee, Roger Marshall, Rand Paul, Eric Schmitt and JD Vance were the nine Republicans who voted against it.
But as you can see, an overwhelming majority here supporting it. But one of those big issues that the senator was talking about too, is the issue of Ukraine. That is going to be a huge fight in the fall about how to get that funding approved here because the one thing the speaker made clear, that was not going to get approved here and he dropped it from this last ditch effort to keep the government open, but it's one in which senators from both parties recognize that they will have to deal with.
And also what McCarthy will have to deal with potentially, Dana, a threat to his own speakership. You're hearing some threats from the right, Matt Gaetz in particular, who has been the ringleader of this effort, saying that if McCarthy did what he did today, rely on Democratic votes to keep the government open, that would be enough to push him out of the speakership.
We have not seen Gaetz file any motion to try to force that vote just yet. And it's also uncertain if he has the support to push McCarthy out, but that is one of the issues that we'll be watching very closely in the next few days, whether there is enough support, whether Democrats will join with Matt Gaetz to push him out or whether McCarthy will have to rely on Democratic support.
I asked McCarthy today, Dana, if McCarthy would need, as if he would need Democrats to help him stay in the speakership. He did not answer that question directly instead saying, bring it on.
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BASH: He sure did. Thank you so much for that, Manu. You had a very, very long day, long week, and I know you're going to be back here for Inside Politics Sunday tomorrow morning. Thank you so much for all your terrific reporting.
RAJU: Thank you.
BASH: And joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. Thank you so much for being here. I know you're not happy with the notion of Congress not doing its job, constitutional job, which is to fund the government by October 1st, but I'm guessing you're happy enough that the government didn't shut down.
Take me behind the scenes, if you will, the last several hours and to what happened in the United States Senate with the discussions about passing this bill to keep the government funding -- funded for 45 more days without additional aid to Ukraine. SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), DELAWARE: Well, Dana, I'm relieved that we are not heading home tonight having to explain a shutdown of the U.S. government to our constituents, to our neighbors, to the men and women of our armed forces and of federal law enforcement, our own employees in the Senate who would have been forced to work without pay.
I've lived through several previous shutdowns, as have you, and they are not as glamorous or exciting as some might imagine. They are, in fact, embarrassing and tedious. They weaken us on the world stage. They make our allies question whether we're reliable. They harm our economy, and they show dysfunction in our political system.
It was unexpected that Speaker McCarthy would make such a quick about face today. Embrace support from across the aisle and move a CR that keeps our government open for the next 45 days. In the last few hours, there were a lot of urgent conversations among senators, Republicans and Democrats, leadership, appropriators, and rank and file to reassure each other that there is sustained and strong support for funding Ukraine.
There are other things that are also we're not taking care of in this bill, humanitarian relief funding. I'm someone who chairs the relevant subcommittee and is very concerned about the dramatic growth and hunger around the world. There's other unmet needs.
We are going to have to turn to those in the coming 45 days and work out before the end of this calendar year. How do we sustain funding for Ukraine through the rest of the coming year? How do we sustain our leadership in the world and invest in the State Department in encountering humanitarian challenges? And how do we finish our appropriations process?
Today, we didn't shut down the government. But tomorrow, we have to keep our commitment to sustain funding of Ukraine, something President Biden has spoken strongly about, something that both Leader Schumer and Leader McConnell, Chair Murray, Vice Chair Collins, Senator Graham and I have all spoken to this evening in different settings to reassure our partners and allies that we will sustain our support for Ukraine.
BASH: You know, you, this -- the Ukraine issue is obviously one of the big ones right now and Senator Michael Bennet of Colorado made public that he was very upset about moving quickly on this bill to continue funding the government without that additional Ukraine money.
I guess my first question is, how did you overcome that? What assurances did he and others get that what you're talking about, the bipartisan support to back Ukraine financially and otherwise, will continue?
COONS: Well, I'll let Senator Bennet speak for himself, but as I said, there were a lot of conversations between senior senators to reassure each other that there is sustained support. I was literally just talking to a leader in the House Republican caucus about whether they might also move and send us an increased Ukraine supplemental. The core issue here was, if the government shut down tonight, there wasn't going to be additional funding going to Ukraine in the next couple of weeks. And we have instead found a path forward where the government stays open, and there is a path forward for working together to support Ukraine aid and to send a strong message to the 50 other countries supporting Ukraine that we will be with them going forward.
BASH: You mentioned that you spoke with a senior Republican in the House about Ukraine funding. After the House passed its bill, there was a statement that came out from the House Democratic leaders. And in it, it said -- they said that when the House returns, they expect Speaker McCarthy to advance a bill to the House floor, an up or down vote that supports Ukraine.
COONS: Right.
BASH: Is that your understanding that that will happen? And as you answer that, just listening to what Speaker McCarthy was saying today, would Democrats be OK with additional money for border security along with that, U.S. border security along with that?
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COONS: Well, I think that depends on how it's configured. President Biden requested in his supplemental request additional funding for our border. I think there is wide agreement here that we can and should invest more in finding ways to help the countries from which many are coming north to secure their borders and to invest in some of the systems and structures that secure our southern border.
One thing was clear today, that shutting down our government and forcing the entire Border Patrol and the Customs and Border Agents to work without pay wasn't going to help that situation.
I do think that we have a significant opportunity here to work together to fully fund Ukraine's needs for the coming year and to find a path forward following the leadership of Chair Murray, who is speaking on the floor right now --
BASH: Yes.
COONS: -- to finish our appropriations process in the Senate.
BASH: One last question for you. You talk about the need for support for Ukraine by the United States, talk about it when it comes to democracy, small d, so on and so forth. How important is it, particularly given where we are right now, for the president, for your predecessor in your Senate seat, to be more forceful on the question of Ukraine, explaining to the American people why it is in America's interest to give this additional money that he's asking for?
COONS: I think this is an obligation that falls on all of us in elected leadership. President Biden has a uniquely forceful and capable voice here, given his five decades of experience in foreign policy. I'll remind you, he went to Kyiv earlier this year, the first U.S. president in modern history to go to a war zone that the United States did not have control over and to go to the risk of being in Kyiv, standing alongside President Zelenskyy and committing to the -- all the support that Ukraine needs.
And just last week, as you know, President Zelenskyy came and addressed the entire Senate here in the old Senate chamber and heard very forceful statements of support from all the senior senators.
What you're raising, Dana, is the larger challenge. We have to convey to the average American that 50 other countries are supporting Ukraine and have matched and exceeded our support for Ukraine, that whether or not Ukraine succeeds in its war against the Russian invaders and occupiers is critical to the future of NATO, of the Free West, of democracy, and if Ukraine falls, other countries will take strong signals from that, that they can change borders by force, that they can realign the world.
We heard a chilling prediction from one of the most senior military leaders when we had a conversation about Ukraine last week, who said, if we do not stand by Ukraine, it will, within a matter of a year or two, the open season on the world stage for aggression that will draw the United States into future wars.
We are far better off robustly and sustainably supporting Ukraine in their fight, which in so many ways is our fight as well.
BASH: Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, thank you so much. I really appreciate you joining me.
COONS: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: And President Biden is on standby to sign the stopgap bill that just passed the U.S. Senate, passed all of Congress, of course. Let's check in with CNN Senior White House Correspondent MJ Lee. What are you hearing over there at the White House?
MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, of course, President Biden tonight is standing by here at the White House to sign that funding bill into law as soon as it reaches his desk. But we did just receive a paper statement from the White House. This is the president weighing in on everything that's happened tonight for the first time.
So let me just read you a part of that statement. The President writes, "Tonight, bipartisan majorities in the House and Senate voted to keep the government open, preventing an unnecessary crisis that would have inflicted needless pain on millions of hardworking Americans.
This bill ensures that active duty troops will continue to get paid, the travelers will be spared airport delays, millions of women and children will continue to have access to vital nutrition assistance and so much more. This is good news for the American people". The President also goes on to say, "While the Speaker and the overwhelming majority of Congress have been steadfast in their support for Ukraine, there is no new funding in this agreement to continue that support".
Dana, of course, I think it is just worth talking about how exactly we got to this point tonight from the White House's perspective.
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Some time ago, the White House made the deliberate decision to take a bit of a no off-hands approach to the deliberations, basically trying to send the message. Look, Republicans and Democrats came together several months ago. A deal was reached, and really it is only House Republicans that are not holding up their end of the bargain.
And the political calculation here was that if the government had shut down at midnight tonight, White House officials believed, and Democrats too, that House Republicans would end up shouldering much of that political blame. But I think the last part of that statement from President Biden, that is so, so key here.
I know that you have been talking about this and I heard you talking about this with Senator Coons as well. White House officials and President Biden himself, they are saying that they very much expect House Speaker Kevin McCarthy to hold up his end of the bargain and bring up a separate measure in the coming days to make sure that there is funding separately for Ukraine.
I think people after tonight are pretty reticent to make predictions about how exactly that will actually come to fruition. And, of course, there have been so many warnings about sort of the dire ramifications of what would happen if additional funding is not passed. So that is going to be a huge focus for this White House going forward.
But no question about it that there is a huge sigh of relief tonight that a government shutdown has been averted, Dana.
BASH: No question about it. MJ, thank you so much for that reporting.
Let's discuss all of this with Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton. Also, Jamal Simmons, former communications director for Vice President Kamala Harris, senior -- CNN Senior Political Analyst Gloria Borger, and CNN Political Commentator Jonah Goldberg, also the editor-in-chief of the Dispatch. What a night.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
BASH: Gloria, look, it used to be that this was pretty rare coming to the brink.
BORGER: Yes.
BASH: And now it's just -- it means it's September 30th.
BORGER: Right. Now conventional wisdom is that they're going to go over the deadline, and of course, they surprised everyone by actually doing something tonight. I think there are a lot of questions, as MJ and Manu were just talking about, which is, OK, what's next when it comes to funding for Ukraine?
Exactly what kind of a commitment did Democrats and the White House extract from from McCarthy? Was it a firm I'm going to bring it up? And then there's also the question of, OK, if he made a firm commitment, what happens to McCarthy if his right flank decides to introduce a motion to vacate?
Would he be Speaker? And what would the Democrats ask from him? What concessions from him would they ask if they were to say, oh yes, give the votes to keep him as speaker? Would they ask for power sharing? Would Ukraine be a part of it? So there's still a lot of kind of unanswered questions here that are very serious about aid to Ukraine, which is so important to the White House and to a lot of members of the House and the Senate.
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. This may be a weird way to put it, but I've learned through bitter experience of walking my dogs every morning at 6:00 a.m. There's no way you can look cool when you walk into a spider web. It just can't happen, right?
You cannot look cool and in command as a speaker of the House with a four vote majority in your caucus and a caucus of 30 or 40 or 50 hotheads who don't want to govern. It can't happen. You just -- it's a square circle.
BASH: But does he look cooler today after he just said --
GOLDBERG: He salvaged as best he could but he doesn't look good to the constituencies he cares about the most which are Fox News viewers, Republican donors, small donors, the Trump crowd. And it's a tenuous situation for him.
And it -- I think the weird thing is, is he can't look -- he can't make it look easy because it's impossible with that kind of margin, but he's actually doing a better job than a lot of people want to claim --
BASH: Right.
GOLDBERG: -- because it's an impossible job.
BASH: What do you think, I mean, do you --
SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I mean, I think Jonah's correct.
BASH: Yes.
SINGLETON: I mean, the House is the only place where Republicans have actually won. We didn't win the White House. We didn't win the Senate. And in terms of the politics of this, I mean, Kevin McCarthy in the first six months of his speakership raised almost $70 million, gave over $8 million to Republican incumbents, over $17 million at NRCC. So I want to talk about the politics here for our Republican viewers who are saying, well, we don't like what McCarthy is doing. Well, if you care about a Republican agenda, you have to raise money to get Republicans elected. You need to have a Republican majority to push that agenda forward. And in my opinion, Kevin McCarthy has done that thus far.
BASH: And not to sound Pollyanna, but the role of the House Speaker, the House Speaker is not just the leader of a party. The House Speaker is elected, has a constitutional role.
SINGLETON: Yes.
BASH: And you have to lead.
SINGLETON: You do.
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BASH: And by doing what he did today, he showed, you know what, I'm going to lead. I know that's maybe not necessarily all that popular with, you know, the viewers and the consumers of information in the conservative ecosystem but this is how it's supposed to look.
SINGLETON: I think donors want to see this, Dana, I would argue. Because the reality is, individuals like Matthew Gaetz and others have become chaos members of the House. We have to be able to govern. We have a very, very slim majority.
We know the next presidential contest is going to be incredibly close. Republicans, I think, are primarily concerned with wanting to make sure we maintain that majority. But if the American people look at the House right now and they look at Republicans and see we're not governing, why would they want to return power to Republicans versus giving it back to Democrats?
BORGER: Or why was it so hard to govern?
BASH: Yes.
SINGLETON: Exactly.
BORGER: I mean, why did this have to happen in the first place? That's kind of the ridiculous part of it.
BASH: Go ahead, Jamal.
JAMAL SIMMONS, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIR. FOR VP HARRIS: I mean, one reason this is so hard, I think, is because Kevin McCarthy does not seem to have any strategy beyond the end of the day, right? It seems as if he's governing hour by hour, day by day, not with any long-term sense of where he wants to take the House or where he want to take the party.
He is the most unreliable Speaker of the House we have seen in recent memory. He cuts a deal with the President and the Republican leader in the Senate, Mitch McConnell, and can't stick by it. He says he's going to -- he's not going to do a clean CR, and he ended up doing a clean CR.
He can't hold his caucus together. How can you govern with this person? And now, if he is successful, if Kevin -- if Speaker McCarthy is successful, he will make the country look as unreliable as he is. Because when it comes to Ukraine funding and our standing by our allies, the speaker is not willing to say we are definitely going to stand by our commitments.
That is something that endangers the entire nation, and I think we have to be careful about keeping him in the air (ph).
BASH: How important as a recent member of the Biden administration? You work for Vice President Harris.
SIMMONS: Yes.
BASH: If you were still in there, would you be going and knocking on the door and saying, hey, the president, the vice president, they have to explain on Ukraine. They have to explain to the American people in a more robust way, why this support is critical?
SIMMONS: It is always good to speak to the American people and explain what you're up to. I think with something as serious as Ukraine, we need to understand the American people need to stay focused on what the long-term message is here.
That if we don't fight Russia, and if we don't help Ukraine fight Russia in Ukraine, that is going to be something that Russia will move across Europe. We have to be very careful and very serious, but this is a very dangerous situation for the globe. We've not seen this since World War II, so they've got to be serious about it.
BASH: Jonah, you know --
GOLDBERG: Yes.
BASH: -- where the base is on this.
GOLDBERG: Yes. Well, look, I think there's more support for Ukraine. There's more potential support for Ukraine out there than the popular narratives about the right would suggest. This country likes underdogs. This country has a pretty solid moral core.
It's a little bit like the Afghanistan pullout. President Biden was right to -- when he read the polls, it said Americans want to get out of Afghanistan, but they didn't want to get out of Afghanistan the way we got out.
If Ukraine were defeated by Putin, that would be immensely unpopular in this country, and it would look really bad. I go -- I'm torn about whether -- how forceful Biden should be, because in an era of this kind of negative polarization, the more he makes it central to his presidency, the more opposition it invites just because that's the nature of things. BASH: It's interesting.
BORGER: Well, but there's a way to get her to do that. And to also talk about border security, which is what Republicans really want to talk about. So, I think there is a way if the President wants to do that is to say, yes, we're going to deal with border security and we're going to give Ukraine the money we think it needs.
And that would be -- wouldn't that be something that Republicans --
GOLDBERG: Yes. But I also think his -- the policy has been bad in so far as -- I'm a huge supporter of helping Ukraine -- but his policy has been say no, say no, say no, say no, then say yes. And it's been a lot of dragged out, you know, support about different weapons systems.
The message isn't we're going to help Ukraine win, the message is we're going to be in it as long as it takes. I think reframing it, giving them more than what they need up front to win quickly would have been the better approach. But he's got to pull allies along. It's a complicated thing. I can't dig him too hard because he's on the fundamentally the right side of it.
BASH: Yes. OK, everybody stand by. We're going to have to take a break.
A House Republican who voted against the stopgap bill, the one that is currently on its way to President Biden's desk to keep the government running, he's going to come on and talk about why he voted that way. And also what this -- what the deal is with Kevin McCarthy, whether or not he is going to have a very real challenge as soon as next week to his job.
Also ahead, a Democratic congressman pulls -- appears to pull a fire alarm in a House office building before today's vote. He says it was an accident. Some Republicans want him censured. More on that later.
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BASH: Welcome back, more on our breaking news. Moments ago, the Senate passed the House bill preventing a government shutdown tonight. Joining me now, Republican Congressman Ken Buck of Colorado. He voted against the bill. And I should say that you have, I think, voted consistently against every bill to -- large bill to fund the government to keep it open through your career. Is that right?
REP. KEN BUCK (R-CO): I have voted against every continuing resolution.
BASH: Continuing resolution. OK. Given that, what do you think about what Speaker McCarthy said today? He went before reporters after the House passed the bill in a bipartisan way. It passed because Democrats cross party lines to support it. Listen to what he said about that vote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: If you have members in your conference that won't let you vote for appropriation bills, doesn't want an omnibus, and won't vote for a stopgap measure, so the only answer is to shut down and not pay our troops? I don't want to be a part of that team. I want to be a part of a conservative group that wants to get things done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:35:02]
BASH: I think you're part of the group he's talking about.
BUCK: Well, yes. I'll tell you what, he may not be a part of the team if he keeps talking that way because he was high fiving everybody like this was some great victory. We knew in January that we had to pass 12 appropriations bills. He and so many others wait until the very last minute to jam people with bad spending bills with the excuse that the only option we had was to shut down government or spend too much money. That's not the option.
He promised when he ran for speaker that we would have 12 votes on 12 separate bills. And he did not fulfill that promise. Then he promised the President a very high number on spending, and he promised other Republicans in the House lower numbers. So, he has made promises that conflict with each other.
This had nothing to do with people wanting to shut down government. Nobody wanted to shut down government. But also, we care very deeply about where this country is going to be with $36 trillion of debt.
BASH: You just said that he better be careful because he might not have his job. How viable is that threat to him? You know, come Monday when you all come in, will there be a motion to vacate the chair, meaning throw him out?
BUCK: Well, I am not going to make that motion. Matt Gaetz may make it, some others may make it. But he's going to have to rely on Democrats again to survive and to keep his speakership.
BASH: You say May, do you have any indication that it definitely will go forward?
BUCK: I do not. I have not had any conversations with someone. You know, Matt Gaetz has made gestures in that regard. I have not actually heard from him that he's going to be filing it next week.
BASH: You said that you won't be the person to file it, but should someone file it? Do you believe at this point that is necessary, or just to play devil's advocate? I completely understand that you are a tried and true conservative, fiscal conservative, and you fundamentally believe that the government is spending too much money.
Having said that, there is a school of thought that the House Speaker did what he had to do, given where he was, and he reached across the line, the party line, reached across the aisle, got Democrats on board, and there was a bipartisan vote, which in theory, it's not the worst thing. I mean, we don't see big bipartisan votes very much in Washington anymore.
BUCK: Well, I don't think it's a bad thing to have bipartisan votes on some issues. I think the Democrats are going to join with moderate Republicans any time we're talking about spending a huge amount of money. I think that Kevin McCarthy's problem really is the lack of passing 12 bills on time and then getting jammed at the last minute with this.
We're going to see at least four appropriations bills in the next two weeks. Hopefully those pass, at that point we'll have eight or nine of the 12 bills passed. And that would be a real relief to a lot of us. This 45 days will come a lot quicker than people anticipate. And we'll be faced with another crisis.
BASH: What about Ukraine aid? The House Democratic leadership sent a letter to Speaker McCarthy, or put out a statement rather, and in part it said that they expect Speaker McCarthy to advance a bill to the House floor for an up or down vote that supports Ukraine.
BUCK: Yes, I anticipate that he will do that. We have had several votes on Ukraine. They have passed with large Republican votes as well as overwhelming Democrat votes. I think a Ukraine vote will pass the House. I don't know how he attaches it to something or whether he has a standalone bill or how he chooses to do that.
But just the other night we had -- he pulled $300 million out of a defense bill -- defense appropriations bill. We had a floor vote on that. I think there were well over 300 votes to pass that.
BASH: Do you believe that that was a commitment that Speaker McCarthy gave to the Democrats as part of the bipartisan vote to keep the government open today?
BUCK: I anticipate that's correct. I wasn't there in those conversations, but the bill that was coming over from the Senate was a clean CR with emergency funding and Ukraine funding. The only difference in our bill was the Ukraine funding wasn't there. So I guess that the cost for getting those votes today was to make sure that Ukraine funding is on the table.
BASH: You have said multiple times that you believe that the impeachment inquiry into President Biden should be on the back burner while Congress focuses on funding the government and on spending bills. Is there any -- have you talked to any Republicans in sort of your side of the conference that sees what happened today and sees what is going to have to happen in the next 45 days to not go through this again and says, well, maybe we should? Is that even realistic?
BUCK: No, I think that the weaponization of government committee, the impeachment of the President are all distractions that will make sure that the base is excited, make sure the base is donating money, make sure that people don't focus on the dysfunction that we have with a speaker who promises something different to a lot of different groups and can't deliver.
[21:40:20]
BASH: Ken Buck, Republican of Colorado, thank you so much for coming in. I appreciate it.
BUCK: Thank you.
BASH: And a Democratic congressman under investigation for pulling a fire alarm on Capitol Hill before today's important vote. He claims it was an accident. Republicans say they're not really buying it. We'll talk about that after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: More on tonight's breaking news, the Senate following the House in voting to keep the government open, narrowly avoiding a government shutdown at midnight Eastern. Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Dan Kildee of Michigan voted in favor of this short term funding bill in the House. Thank you so much for joining me, Congressman. Appreciate it.
REP. DAN KILDEE (D-MI): Thank you.
BASH: This was something that happened rather last minute, keeping the government open for 45 more days. It brings us to November 15th, just before Thanksgiving. How confident are you that we won't be right back where we are now in 45 days?
[21:45:04]
KILDEE: Well, we will be back if Kevin McCarthy and those around him don't sort of learn the lesson of the past couple of months. Many of us have said all along that we know what the resolution looks like. It's a bipartisan deal. I mean, that was that was sort of self-evident to everybody apparently except the speaker after breakfast today on the day of the shutdown.
So, if we're going to repeat this, it's only going to be because there's this amnesia that sinks in, and we're right back where we were. There are really important lessons from this. There were 90 people on the Republican side who voted to shut down government. They're not going to be part of the governing coalition.
We see what that looks like now. Virtually all the Democrats and a good number of Republicans. That's how we're going to get things done. And if Kevin learns that, maybe we'll avoid this.
BASH: Congressman, the leadership, you are a member of it, the leadership of the House released a statement today, and in it, they said that the expectation is that House Speaker Kevin McCarthy advances a bill to increase funding for Ukraine, an up or down vote on that in the coming weeks. Did the House Speaker give the Democratic leadership a commitment that he would do that as part of the bipartisan vote today to fund the government? KILDEE: I don't know what conversations you may have had with Leader Jeffries. I know there was some frustration that there should have been more interaction. Leader Jeffries was expecting that and didn't get quite the interaction that he had hoped for. So I don't know if there were subsequent conversations.
But when Leader Jeffries and our leadership wants to see Ukraine funding come forward, when Leader McConnell, Leader Schumer both made a commitment to get this done in the near term, and we know what the governing coalition looks like, I think it would support Ukraine, I don't think he has much of a choice.
And I don't think the world has much of a choice either. We can't allow Ukraine to go without our support impact on the entire world, but especially on U.S. interest would be devastating.
BASH: Well, when you ask the question or talked about the idea that Kevin McCarthy woke up after breakfast today and realized that there has to be a bipartisan vote, you know that he and everybody in Washington knew there had to be a bipartisan vote to keep the government running.
What was holding him back and the calculation was whether or not he was going to face a motion within his Republican conference to vacate the chair, meaning to kick him out. That still could happen or maybe even potentially is more likely to happen early next week because he allowed this bipartisan vote to fund the government at current spending letters -- levels.
Will you vote, if that happens, will you vote to help keep Kevin McCarthy in the speaker's chair and avoid that chaos?
KILDEE: Well, I'm going to dodge that in a way by saying that when that moment occurs, we're all going to have to make a decision. But I think if Speaker McCarthy is interested in having a conversation about maintaining his speakership, and if that's going to require Democrats to help, which it would seem it may, he needs to have a conversation specifically about that with Hakeem Jeffries.
I'm not going to negotiate openly here on the air as to what consideration we might have to have and I'm not even suggesting that that would itself work, but I do say that I'm not sure how much involvement Democrats are going to want to have in the civil war within the Republican conference. And so, there would be an interest, I think, in thinking through how we create a more stable environment in Washington.
I will say one more thing. This is not the fall of those rogue members of the Republican conference, because they're quite predictable. This is on Kevin McCarthy. He decided to give them the authority to call that motion to vacate.
He made the decision eyes open in order to get, you know, the 15 votes that were required for him to become speaker to get that done. If he were tougher, he may have been able to become speaker without having to give away the speakership in order to have it. It's a pretty circular situation itself (ph)
BASH: Yes. Before I let you go, Congressman, I have to ask you about your Democratic colleague, Jamaal Bowman. He appeared to pull the fire alarm in the Cannon Building shortly before the House was scheduled to vote on the government funding bill. He says it was an accident. Do you believe that's true? Have you spoken to him or have you heard any of the details?
KILDEE: I have not had a chance to speak with him directly, and I do know that the Capitol Police is investigating it. I think we should allow that investigation to go forward.
[21:50:06]
But I will say this, it's a pretty serious matter. Pulling a fire alarm is not a prank. Pulling a fire alarm in the Capitol complex, the very same complex where we have people working for whom a fire alarm going off is a reminder of another really difficult day that we all had here.
It put -- it puts people in danger. So, it's a serious matter. It has to be taken seriously, but I don't want to rush to judgment on this. I think we need to hear from Representative Bowman, and we need to allow the Capitol Police to do their work. If there's a finding that he is responsible, I think he probably is, just based on the video evidence.
We're going to have to hear his explanation, and then make some judgments about what, if any, next steps would be warranted.
BASH: Congressman Dan Kildee of Michigan, thank you so much for joining me this evening. I appreciate it.
KILDEE: Thanks, Dana. Good to see you.
BASH: Speaking of Jamaal Bowman, Republicans are not accepting his explanation at all. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): He violated the exact same law that January 6th defendants are being prosecuted for every single day.
REP. BRYAN STEIL (R-WI): His initial explanation that it was an accident doesn't seem to really pass muster.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: This should not go without punishment. He pulled a fire alarm in a minute of hours before the government being shut down, trying to dictate that government would shut down. What's going through a person's mind like that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Panel is back with me. I just want to say that there's no comparison to January 6th --
BORGER: Of course. BASH: -- and pulling a fire alarm. Let's just say that like full stop. But the fact that you just heard Democrat Dan Kildee say that police should investigate and it's a serious matter.
GOLDBERG: Yes. So first of all about Dan Kildee, I really wish he had done that interview from behind the drum set rather than in front of it. That would have been a much better look. Yes, look, it deserves to be investigated and in normal times this would be considered a much bigger deal.
The problem now is you have people -- I mean, look, people are comparing it to January 6th. So does that mean that in a couple weeks, Kevin McCarthy is going to be OK with it, because he's OK with January 6th now, right? I mean, people who are most active about comparing to January 6th are the ones who are most forgiving of January 6th, which is a weird kind of locution, but it's a very serious thing.
And this guy was a former middle school principal. Like, they lecture little kids about not pulling fire alarms. There's no way he didn't know what a fire alarm is. So, I mean, yes, got to hear his version of events, but it's a very strange story.
SIMMONS: So, as a Democrat on the panel, can I just --
BASH: Yes, yes.
SIMMONS: Listen, I thought that Congressman Kildee was very responsible in the way he talked about this. Let's figure it out. Let's talk to Congressman Bowman. Let's figure out what the next steps are. But, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene can miss me with her outrage, right?
This is a woman who introduced pornographic photos of the President's son in a congressional hearing and he had them put in the record for everybody to be able to see, that was outrageous. So the Republicans who are coming for this really need to kind of pull back a little bit.
Let's figure out what happened. If he deserves to be punished, let's figure out what that punishment is.
BORGER: But --
SIMMONS: To be outrage, they can miss me.
BORGER: The problem was that the original explanation was something that was not comprehensible. I mean, the chief of staff said that he did not realize he would trigger a building alarm as he was rushing to make an urgent vote. It is a building alarm. It's a fire alarm. You just look at it and you realize that if you pull it down, you're going to trigger an alarm.
So I do think there needs to be more explanation. And, you know, I understand what you're saying about Marjorie Taylor Greene, but, you know, the timing of this, Republicans are raising questions about, honestly, but I think it's, you know, it's something that behooves people to -- it's a -- if it was a prank, it was stupid. SINGLETON: It was.
GOLDBERG: It's still (INAUDIBLE).
SINGLETON: I mean, his tweet that he thought it was going to open the door is a bit absurd. And of course Republicans are going to jump on this because they're looking at the politics for it, optically speaking, and I understand that.
But I just want to step away and say this is why I believe Congress has such a low approval rating, whether it's Republicans or Democrats. I think the American people look at these types of antics, whether it's Jamaal Bowman or Gaetz or Marjorie Taylor Greene and a whole host of others, and say, can these guys actually do their job? Like, will we send them there to manage the business of the country?
Not pull pranks, not be about themselves, but about the people --
BASH: Well he says it wasn't a prank.
SINGLETON: -- or was just in enough of that.
BASH: That he was trying -- his explanation --
SINGLETON: His explanation.
BASH: He was trying to do his job.
SINGLETON: Yes.
BASH: He was trying to go vote.
SINGLETON: But I think people are going to see that photo, Dana, and they're going to not believe it. They're going to say, come on, guy, let's be honest, what were you really trying to do here? And I think that's part and parcel of the problem we have in D.C. It's too many antics and not enough about the serious business of governance.
BORGER: Can I say something about what Dan Kildee said too --
BASH: Yes.
BORGER: -- which was so interesting to me, aside from what he said about the congressman, is that on the vote on McCarthy, if Matt Gaetz raises it and says, vacate the chair, it was very clear to me that what he was saying, we got to get something for this and we're -- we don't love McCarthy. McCarthy --
BASH: Yes.
BORGER: -- you know, is the one who instigated an impeachment inquiry. He didn't say that, but Democrats are not thrilled and they don't trust McCarthy. And so what would they demand in exchange for keeping him in his job.
[21:55:27] BASH: Yes, let's make a deal. And the question is, is there a deal to be made? I mean, Jonah, what would happen? I mean, can you imagine a world in which --
GOLDBERG: Yes.
BASH: -- Kevin McCarthy said, OK, I'll take the Democratic votes.
GOLDBERG: I thought his point about Democrats not wanting to interfere in a Republican Civil War was a good one.
BORGER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: I do think that that 90 number who voted against this, there were a lot of free votes in there because they knew it was going to pass because it's Democrats. So I think that 90 number is actually more like a 50 number.
BASH: I agree with that.
GOLDBERG: That said, there are also a good number, I mean, Jamaal can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but there are a good number of Democrats who will get primaried if they vote for a Republican speaker, right?
BORGER: Yes.
GOLDBERG: I mean, it would create a Democratic Civil War to do some --
BASH: OK.
GOLDBERG: -- to keep Kevin McCarthy is.
BASH: But let me just -- let me play devil's advocate on that. What if the argument is, I guess they could still get primaried, what if the argument is the Republicans have the majority, they have the votes to have the majority right now? What if we do this Democrats and say, Kevin McCarthy will be there and we make a deal to just spend the rest of this session doing bipartisan stuff? I know, I'm not this (INAUDIBLE).
I know, I'm not a Pollyanna. I'm not as Pollyanna, but what if that's an argument they could make against a primary Democrat?
SIMMONS: Sure. I don't know anybody who would want to make that argument.
BASH: Sure.
GOLDBERG: Going into a presidential election, too.
SIMMONS: Absolutely. I called around about this a few days ago because, you know, the bubbling was happening. And I was told, tamp it down, tamp it down. There's not a stomach in the caucus to save Kevin McCarthy. Nobody wants to keep Kevin McCarthy.
And, in fact, the battle happening between the Republicans, let them have that for as long as possible.
BASH: Yes, I know.
SIMMONS: And everybody else --
SINGLETON: Jamal, I would ask to my Democratic friends, I mean, who would you guys want to see replace the speaker? Someone far worse? And I would, you know, I would also remind and caution my Republican friends on the House, that there are some Republicans who are in districts that Joe Biden won.
These are districts that could potentially swing in a different direction.
BORGER: Yes.
SINGLETON: We need to be cognizant of these political flames that we're sort of playing around with because individuals don't necessarily like Speaker McCarthy. And I'll say quickly, bipartisanship is governance. People want to see more of that.
BASH: I agree.
BORGER: Let me just say, no matter who it is --
BASH: I'm going back fantasy land.
BORGER: -- no matter who it is, the Democrats are going to ask for something.
SIMMONS: Sure.
GOLDBERG: Yes.
BORGER: So it's going to be power sharing? Would it be concessions about how many people are on committees? I mean, you know, you can go down a long list of things the Democrats might want. Even if it's not McCarthy, even if it's, you know, the names of Emmer and Tom Cole have been suggested, they're going to -- they're in the driver's seat right now on this, I think.
BASH: Everybody, thank you for coming in on a Saturday night.
BORGER: Yes.
BASH: Thank you for coming. I know, Gloria, you were clubbing, so thank you.
BORGER: Well, yes. Holy, I can come back to that. I have no life.
BASH: Who does here? None of us, let's be clear.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you for watching. CNN's coverage continues next.
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