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CNN Live Event/Special

Hearing on Whether Trump Violated Gag Order in Hush Money Case. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Going to see sort of this moment for Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, which I think is just really important to point out. He has been a leader on this issue, has been talking about the importance of getting Ukraine additional aid despite some opposition from conservatives, despite shrinking Republican public polling that showed Republican voters were growing less supportive of the package.

He was out there at every turn, almost every day in the United States Senate giving a floor speech in his opening, where he would talk about the importance of this issue. So it's a very big day for Minority Leader Mitch McConnell as well.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: That's a really good point. All right, let's see what happens. It's good to see you, Lauren. Thank you very much.

A new hour of CNN NEWS CENTRAL and our special live coverage of Donald Trump's trial back in court starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: CNN Breaking News.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- coverage of the criminal trial of Donald Trump here in New York City. I am not too far from the courthouse right now where Trump is about to face a hearing on a gag order. That is before testimony resumes. The first witness who will be there is David Pecker. He was on the stand briefly yesterday. He will get right back on that stand at 11:00 a.m. today.

But first, very shortly, we could see Donald Trump walk through these halls, enter the courtroom, and then a hearing to determine if he has violated a gag order over the last several days with all kinds of posts on social media that have at least directly or obliquely mentioned witnesses in this case.

Let's go right outside the courthouse now. CNN's Brynn Gingras standing by.

Brynn, what do we expect to see?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, let's first just remind viewers of what that gag order is. It was put in place against Donald Trump at the end of March. Essentially the judge said to Trump, you cannot post, you cannot talk disparagingly about the jury in this case, witnesses, court staff, and their family members. And since that was put in place, the prosecution has said that he has violated that at least 10 times, and they're asking the judge to fine Trump a thousand dollars for each of those fines.

They also would like the judge to remind Donald Trump, listen, you're the criminal defendant in this case, and he should be treated as such, essentially saying that like all criminal defendants, he's subject to court supervision. So what we'll be looking out to see is, will the judge fine him? Will he threaten him possibly going to jail for violating this gag order?

Of course, it's no secret in his civil trial that happened last year, Donald Trump was fined thousands of dollars for violating the gag order against him for that trial more than once. So certainly, we are looking out to see how the judge handles this. Trump and his defense has said, listen, I have people like a main witness in this case, Michael Cohen, lashing out at me. I have to be a both to defend myself.

So we expect that argument to be said in court today. That gag hearing kicks off when court kicks off at 9:30. And as you said, the former president is inside the courthouse right now.

BERMAN: You know, speed in order. The two I think main driving forces behind Judge Juan Merchan. We will watch him in play very short.

Brynn, thank you very much for that.

With me here, CNN anchor Kaitlan Collins and CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.

Paula, I do understand you've got some new reporting on how the Trump team intends to address this first issue today.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We'll see some familiar for arguments during today's hearing. They're going to argue that this gag order is unconstitutional. They emphasize the fact that Trump is a candidate for the White House. And they tried to argue that this is all political speech, the things that he says about this trial.

Now so far that has not been as argument. As we all know, there are limits to political speech. And this is the first time we've ever had a candidate for the White House as a criminal defendant. He is subject to some limitations including this gag order. But they're going to focus on three specific people today that they believe should not be covered by this guy border.

The first is the judge, Juan Merchan, who is not covered by the gag order, but they're going to revisit the issue of him being conflicted. That's what they argue, because of his daughter's political work on behalf of some Democrats. Now, she is now covered by the gag order, so they're going to bring that up and argue that they believed that is not -- that should not be legal. Now they're also going to focus on a familiar target, Michael Cohen,

and he's of course a witness in this case. Trump can't attack witnesses, but they're going to point out that this is unilateral. Yes, that is how gag orders work. The defendant cannot attack a witness but if you take a look at Michael Cohen's social media, he is calling Trump things that I can't even report on air. And they're going to argue that that is unfair.

And they're also going to take aim at one of the prosecutors, Matthew Colangelo, and they're going to say that, look, the fact that Trump can't speak out about him means that Trump can't talk about the time that a prosecutor spent at the Biden Justice Department. That's very common for prosecutors to spend time at the Justice Department, then go to other high-profile prosecuting offices. But these are going to be the key arguments that they're going to focus on today.

[09:05:04]

They're also going to try to argue that when he's quoting, you know, we're seeing him quote more on social media as opposed to coming up with original attacks, that that should not be covered by the gag order. He's quoting someone else. We saw him, you know, last week he came out with a stack of articles and he was quoting from them. They say that if that is covered by the gag order, him quoting someone else, they believe it's overbroad.

Now I'm not sure any of these are going to be successful arguments, but this is how they're going to lay it out. And I think when it comes to something like Michael Cohen, and how these are unilateral, in the court of public opinion, the average voter might say, yes, that seems unfair, but legally speaking, this is the way it works.

BERMAN: You know, it's interesting -- I'm so sorry, just because the everything that Trump seems to be talking about on social media and out loud concerns this hearing, not actually the testimony on the witness stand in this case. It has already begun. It almost seems that this hearing is where he wants the focus to be.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, and, you know, it's interesting to see how the judge is going to take those arguments from the Trump team. So far, he has not responded well to them because, remember, he issued a gag order after Trump had continued attacking people in the D.A's office, attacking the judge's family, then he expanded that gag order.

And so the question really is how he's going to handle this because obviously the district attorney's office is asking for fines. Whether or not that actually is something the deters Trump from continuing could be another problem and challenge for Judge Merchan in the future, but also Trump is not just talking about the judge's daughter or about the lead prosecutor here who is making that opening statement yesterday.

He's also now talking about the jury, which is also forbidden by this gag order. And he was in an interview last night, John, and I just want you to listen to what he had to say about the jury. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That jury was picked so fast, 95 percent Democrats, the areas is mostly all Democrat. You think of it as just a purely Democrat area. It's a very unfair situation that I can tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So in the gag order, he's not supposed to say anything about the jury. He's not supposed to drag other people to say anything about the jury. And so we talked to some legal experts lost. Now you said they do believe that's also a violation of this gag order. It's not expected to be brought up today. Maybe the prosecution will bring it up. But it just speaks to, you know, we already had a concern yesterday when this hearing got started that a juror was worried about the attention that they were getting all ready, and we've seen obviously, this judge has had a lot of concern about the impact of Trump's statements on the judicial proceeding.

BERMAN: That was talking about the jury right there out loud.

REID: Yes. And I think this is really going to have to be a focus for the judge today. I'm glad that you flagged this sound bite because, of course, you want to protect all the witnesses. You want to protect the prosecutor's family members, but the fact is, when it comes to the jury, if they have a critical mass of jurors who eventually just don't feel safe and are being targeted, there could potentially be a mistrial.

If you get to fewer than 12 jurors, the defense would need to agree to do it with 11, which obviously they're not going to do. So I think the judge has to pay special attention today to how the gag order protects and covers the jury.

BERMAN: And just to be clear, this jury isn't sequestered.

REID: Right.

BERMAN: They're at dentist appointments. They're coming in a little bit later this morning. They're not supposed to pay attention to media and what's covered out there, but it's hard not to hear these things.

COLLINS: Yes. And also, you know, when Trump says they're 95 percent Democrats, he's not just talking about the demographics. That's a criticism coming from Donald Trump. And I should note, obviously his legal team had a role in picking this jury. They actually felt like they did -- they had a more favorable jury pool than they expected going into this. There's two people on it who have said nice things about Donald Trump, someone who follows him on Truth Social.

And so it just speaks to Trump's view of this. Of course yesterday was his first day in the courtroom, though, with that jury and I think that's part of what led to that comment last night.

BERMAN: So the judge, in terms of what he has at this disposal, stern words, fines, and then in theory you can imprison people for contempt of court, Paula. But realistically what is it that this judge can do?

REID: Fines are probably the most likely first step. But again, you fine someone couple of thousand dollars, tens of thousands dollars, that's barely going to make a dent in Trump's bank account.

BERMAN: Right.

REID: The judge has to think strategically what is a proper deterrent here. You talked about possible jailtime. Yes. That is on the far end of consequence. Certainly not something that's likely to be considered today. But Trump has also said it would be his, quote, "great honor" to be jailed for violating this gag order. So a very difficult position for the judge to be in.

BERMAN: We got a shot from inside, again, the courthouse right there, whether or not we see people moving shortly we will tell you when it happens.

Kaitlan, after this hearing, of course, David Pecker gets back up on the stand, and I have to say, I was glued to the TV all day yesterday, to both of you out here discussing his testimony, watching it unfold at least with the banners on the side of the screen reading out loud what was taking place. He says he engaged in checkbook journalism. That sets the table for what today do you think, Kaitlan?

COLLINS: Yes. And just a reminder for everyone. Obviously, we don't have cameras inside the courtroom, that's as close as we get right outside the courtroom door that Trump goes into, but we'll have the statement of what is actually being said. What is David Pecker being asked? What's he answering? And today is going to get interesting because we know what the prosecution is driving at, which is that August 2015 meeting with Michael Cohen, Donald Trump, and David Pecker when they were talking about how he could help suppress stories.

[09:10:11]

That is kind of their three-pronged narrative that they're making here, which is that he wanted to help publish good stories for Trump, kill negative stories and smear his opponent in that. And what efforts did he take to do that? So it's going to be fascinating because David Pecker is not someone who's criticizing Donald Trump online like Michael Cohen is. They go way back. They are confidants. He was someone who wanted to help Donald Trump get into the White House. He was invited to the Oval Office.

So to see him on that witness stand today now that he and Trump no longer speak, will be fascinating.

BERMAN: And he was smiling in the courtroom, smiling on the stand, smiling as he walked past the defense table, Paula. Michael Moore, our friend from Georgia, says that a jury likes a story.

REID: Yes.

BERMAN: So what is the story that David Pecker is going to tell them? And why is it so important to get that out there? REID: He is such a critical witness to set the stage for the

prosecution's case because while David Pecker was not directly involved in the hush money to Stormy Daniels or in the alleged paperwork crimes, he was part of an effort to suppress negative stories about then candidate Trump and to amplify bad stories about his opponents that could help him. And that's why we go back to this 2015 meeting where he agreed to be Trump's eyes and ears.

Let him know what he was hearing. And eventually after he suppressed two negative stories at through the "National Enquirer" for Trump, he gets wind of the fact that Stormy Daniels wants to sell her story. Her price is too steep. So he passes the information along to Michael Cohen. So not only is he significant for laying out sort of the groundwork for this hush money payment, he's also going to establish that this was a pattern.

And why were they doing this? Was it just because he was a friend? Was it just because he really admired Trump? No, it was not just that. It was to help him get elected. And that is the crux of the prosecution's case. So David Pecker quite the character. I've got a couple giggles on the stand yesterday as they were talking about his time with the "National Enquirer," but he is key to framing the prosecution's case as their first witness.

BERMAN: And again, we will see him on the stand at 11:00 today. Before that, we have this hearing, a lot of ground to cover, and we still don't know if Donald Trump will speak as he walks into the courtroom. Obviously standing by for that as well.

All right, everyone, much more to come. Donald Trump's historic day in court. Our special live coverage continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:06]

BOLDUAN: So right now Donald Trump is at court in Lower Manhattan where moments from now, the judge overseeing it all will hear arguments and decide if Donald Trump violated a gag order. The D.A. says they have at least 10 examples that Trump has already. If the judge agrees he then must decide what penalty Donald Trump will face.

Joining us now to talk about this and also what's going to happen after that is CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig Nick Ackerman, a former assistant special Watergate prosecutor.

Guys, thank you for being here.

Elie, will you walk us through what exactly this gag order covers and also if Trump is pushing against the limits, just pushing against the limits, or if he's trampling all over it already?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Kate, so it's important to understand, first of all, the gag order at issue here is actually quite narrow and specific. What it says is that Donald Trump cannot make public comments about really three groups of people, jurors, likely witnesses, and staff members, and their family, court and prosecutorial staff members and their family members. So the gag order actually allows Donald Trump to criticize loudly if he wants the judge, the D.A., and the indictment itself.

As to your question about whether he's come close to the line, I think he's way over the line. For example, Donald Trump posted publicly he called Michael Cohen a, quote, "sleazebag," a, quote, "serial perjurer." I mean, that is obviously negative public commentary about a witness. True or false it clearly in my mind violates the gag order.

BOLDUAN: So, Nick, let me now play -- we played this a moment ago, but it's important to hear Donald Trump himself. This was just last night in an interview that he did on an aspect of this gag order which has to do with no commentary about the jury. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: That jury was picked so fast, 95 percent Democrats, the area is mostly all Democrat. You think of it as just a purely Democrat area. It's a very unfair situation, that I can tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: What do you think of this as an example?

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: I think it's a total violation of the gag order. He's going after the jury. He's making things up. Not true. It's 95 percent Democrats. I don't know where he is coming up with that number. That just can't possibly be true. There's nothing in the record that would support that. The idea that it's not fair, he's basically going after the jury and the jury system in trying undermine the viability and the authority of the court. I mean, he is going right after it in violation of that order.

BOLDUAN: And maybe I'm -- maybe I'm like splitting hairs here, Nick, but is there a line between commentary on a juror specifically and the jury at large?

AKERMAN: No. There's no line here. He knows what he's doing. He's doing it purposely. He's violating that gag order. And I think that the judge here has to take action against him to stop this. I have never seen this kind of activity and behavior in any case.

[09:20:02]

Over 50 years of practice, nobody does this because they don't want to get on the wrong side of the judge who is ultimately may wind up sentencing them.

BOLDUAN: Yes. So then the question, Elie, becomes, if the judge finds Trump did violate the gag order, how likely -- what is the penalty going to look like, and how likely is a penalty going to change his behavior if past is prologue?

HONIG: So there's an enforcement issue at play here, Kate, because the judge actually has limited tools. On one hand, the judge can of course reprimand Donald Trump, as Nick said, any ordinary litigant would be quite impacted by that. You don't want to tick off the guy who's going to run the trial, who's going to decide what evidence goes in, who's ultimately going to sentence you if you're convicted.

The other options Donald Trump has, excuse me, the judge has is he can impose a fine. However, under New York law cited by the D.A. the judge can only fine Donald Trump $1,000 per incident. So at this point, they're asking for a $10,000 fine. I don't know how much of a deterrent effect that's going to have on Donald Trump.

And then there's the third option which is the judge does have the power technically to imprison any defendant who violates a contempt order for up to 30 days. Now, I do not think that's realistically in play today or in the longer haul, but I do think the judge is going to mention that and potentially threatened Donald Trump with that. The D.A.'s office mentions it in a sort of threatening manner in their brief, even if they do stop short of explicitly asking for it.

But it's a tricky question. What do you do if you're the judge when the party does not really care about the financial penalty and the party seems to have calculated probably correctly that the judge is really unlikely to actually imprison him.

BOLDUAN: And, Nick, if Trump continues then to violate the gag order after this, there was another question that relates to every case, every trial that Donald Trump is facing, right? Which is the schedule, the timing, and the calendar.

AKERMAN: Right.

BOLDUAN: If this continues, does the judge need to, again, maybe, unprecedented. Maybe we don't know. Does the judge need to hold hearing after hearing on continued violations of the gag order? Could that threaten just the slow this whole thing down?

AKERMAN: I don't think this judge is going to slow this down for anything. And there is an intermediate process here that he could do. It doesn't mean he has to put them in jail. It doesn't mean he has to give them a fine. If I were the judge, what I would do is I would give him two weeks of home confinement with an ankle bracelet so that he could not go anywhere other than to and from court with the proviso, if he's a good boy in those two weeks and he doesn't violate the gag order, we can take off the ankle bracelet. That's what I would do.

That would give him an incentive to clean up his act because if he wants to get out there and campaign or do anything besides going to this trial on Wednesdays and Saturdays and Sundays. This would be a major incentive for him to clean up his act.

BOLDUAN: And I would be majorly interested to find out how Donald Trump would react to that penalty.

(LAUGHTER)

AKERMAN: Not well.

BOLDUAN: Judge Akerman is here and ready to rule. It's good to see you, Nick.

AKERMAN: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Elie, thank you so much.

We have this gag order hearing will start very shortly, and also, after that, then the trial begins back up with the first witness, which is David Pecker of the "National Enquirer."

Our continued special live coverage of the Trump trial continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:26:33]

BERMAN: All right. There you see Donald Trump walking toward the microphone. We do expect him to speak before he begins this hearing today over the gag order in his New York criminal trial. Let's listen in.

TRUMP: It's a big day in Pennsylvania, and we hope the people get out there and vote. It's important to vote, to let them know that we're coming on November 5th. We're coming big. Today is preliminary but it's very important. And maybe they'll pick the very big person who's running for the Senate in Pennsylvania, David McCormick, and he's doing a good job. He's working very hard, a successful man, really successful in the country. He'll be a very good senator. So ultimately they're going to be behind David. So in Pennsylvania, get out and vote.

What's going on in the college level and the colleges, Columbia, NYU and others, is a disgrace, and it's really on Biden. He has the wrong signals. He's got the wrong tone. He's got the wrong words. He doesn't know who he's backing. And it's a mess. And if this were me, they'd be after me, they'd be after me so much, but they're trying to give him a pass. What's going on is a disgrace to our country.

And it's all Biden's fault and everybody knows it. He's got no message. He's got no compassion. He doesn't know what he's doing. He can't put two sentences together, frankly. He's the worst president in the history of our country and again, what's going on is a disgrace. That's interesting outside, for great Americans, people who want to come down and they want to protest at the court.

And then want to protest peacefully. We have more police presence here than anybody has ever seen, for blocks. You can't get near this courthouse. And you have nobody up in college when you have very radical people wanting to rip the colleges down, the universities down. And that's a shame, but it all starts with Joe Biden. The signals he puts out are so bad. And I could tell you, he's no friend of Israel, that's for sure.

And he's no friend of the Arab world. You take a look at what he said. He's no friend of -- he doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know what to do. He went to take like a middle ground and oftentimes that doesn't work, but it's certainly not working here. But what he's done to Israel is abandon them and he's trying to be as nice as he can to the other side, call it the Arab world, but that's not worked either because they get him and he's an incompetent man. Peace will never happen with a guy like this. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: All right. Donald Trump speaking before he enters court for a hearing over a gag order in his New York criminal trial. Interesting there. And I'm standing by here with our chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid and CNN anchor Kaitlan Collins.

That was 100 percent politics. Not a single mention of this trial other than to complain about the fact that people who may want to demonstrate for him haven't been allowed near the courthouse, The "New York Times" reporting that he's been upset that he hasn't seen more pro-Trump demonstrators near the courthouse for these hearings.

COLLINS: Yes. But one, that's not true because we've been outside the courthouse. We broadcasted from there multiple times. And there are protesters allowed outside the courthouse. It's still open. People can also go in and watch the hearing. There just aren't that many of his supporters here and that's something that we have been told has frustrated him as he is driven to court every day. I mean, yesterday, he was pretty actively encouraging people to come. He started posting on 7:00 a.m.