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CNN Live Event/Special

Hearing Begins On Whether Trump Violated Gag Order In Hush Money Case. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: There just aren't that many of his supporters here and that's something that we have been told his frustrated him as he is driven to court every day. I mean, yesterday, he was pretty actively encouraging people to come. He started posting around 7:00 a.m. and clearly, you know, now, two days in a row, he's not happy with what's happening outside.

His other comments, there were criticizing President Biden for what he said about the protests that we're seeing them on college campuses, including Columbia about, you know, was essentially, the critics were saying it wasn't a strong enough statement on, you know, the antisemitic comments that are being made by some of them. And that's what he was really kind of using this as a campaign stop for him today as he's been lamenting the fact that he's in court and not on the campaign trail.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And he also said that the President Biden is no friend to Israel and no friend to the Arab world.

COLLINS: Which I think progressive Democrats would say he's too much of a friend to Israel.

BERMAN: Right.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This is, I would expect exactly how his lawyers would prefer that he used this time, right. You have the world's media gathered here. We stopped, we listened, campaign, speak to your supporters, attack your political adversaries.

Please don't make this case anymore complicated and messy than it already is, because though there is a chance that he may not be convicted here, and all of these gag order hearings, that gag order violations not only did they antagonize the judge, the witnesses, possibly the jury, if they're aware of it, they just make for more work for his lawyers.

So I'm sure that they would prefer that he used his platform exactly this way and not taking shots at Michael Cohen or the jury.

BERMAN: Well, he's going to a hearing over a gag order over things that he says. It would've been something had he commented about the judge on the way into that hearing.

REID: And not terribly surprising because he actually he can't comment about the judge. He can't comment about the district attorney, Alvin Bragg. Now, I would not recommend anyone attack a judge, you are about to appear before, but Trump takes obviously a very different approach. That's within the gag order bounds but he has so many times repeatedly violated a gag order that to hear him just use this for politics. I'm sure it's early to his lawyers going into this hearing.

COLLINS: It's also just the probably the first time that he's come out and spoken to the cameras and not talked about the case in and of itself.

BERMAN: I was trying to decide if I remember him doing this where he didn't speak about the case at all.

COLLINS: I can't remember one time where he's come out and talk -- he's talked about other cases, but he's typically quickly also woven and something about Alvin Bragg or the judge. And so, the question, of course, is, you know, what his team has said to him going into this gag order hearing, knowing that, you know, they -- they are likely violations of this gag order, you can breathe a gag order and see what Trump has said, and to do so yourself.

BERMAN: Just for a political standpoint, he complains that he has to be here, not out in the campaign trail, he really hasn't been on the campaign trail anyway that much the last few weeks.

COLLINS: He hasn't had a ton of events since Super Tuesday, even. He did try to have a rally in North Carolina on Saturday. The weather derailed that. And so, well see how he does utilize it.

I mean, you obviously have Wednesdays, Saturdays, his big preoccupation, though, this week has been the immunity hearing that's happening at the Supreme Court on Thursday.

BERMAN: I want to bring in senior legal analyst Elie Honig here, Elie, because this hearing is about to begin here. And if you could just walk us through the mechanics of how this will play, both sides coming in with arguments they want to make. The judge may be coming. It was something he wants to say right out of the gate.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, John, I suspect that's what's going to happen. Now, both sides have already put in their legal briefs here, the D.A. started by making a motion to the judge saying, judge, we want you to find him officially in contempt of your gag ruling. The prosecutors cited three examples of Donald Trump allegedly violating the gag order in their first motion, then they put an a second motion saying and here's seven more.

The first one was based on several social media posts by Donald Trump, including one in which he called Michael Cohen, quote, a sleazebags and a serial perjurer. The second batch included a whole string of Truth Social posts where Donald Trump, again primarily focused on Michael Cohen. The judge will, probably, I would imagine, just stand up today and

say, I'll here quick argument from both sides. D.A., I have your brief. Anything you want to ask?

Donald Trump, your team, Todd Blanche, is there anything you want to say in your defense?

I'm not sure exactly I think the interesting part is going to be two here. How does Donald Trumps team defend his statements that seem to at least some of them go squarely against the gag order.

BERMAN: And, Paula Reid, you're here with me. You've had some reporting on what the Trump team will say affirmatively, any sense of how they will defend against the comments he made last night about the jury.

REID: So for example, I think last night when those comments specifically, they're going to argue that he was talking about the demographics of New York and it's irrefutable, right, that this is a predominantly Democratic district. They knew that going in. That's how they will argue that specific instance. Now that is not one of the ones that had enlisted so far, but, hey, they may add its the list.

Now, when it comes to the other instances, you have to go, you have to kind of go post or attack him by attack. One of the ones that I think is most troubling is where Trump tried to quote a Fox News host who suggested that there were Democratic activists --

BERMAN: Let me just jump in right there. You can see on the left-hand side of our screen and we are getting reports from inside the courtroom as this here and takes place judges on the bench, and he has said, good morning, Mr. Trump.

[09:35:01]

REID: And, apparently, now, Trump is seated alone at the defense attorney, there all -- the table. They're all going to step to the side and have a meeting. It's unclear what that meeting is about.

But as I was saying, one of the most troubling poses where Trump quotes a Fox News host talking Democratic activists had been recruited to be on the jury. The reason that is concerning is because that could be a dog whistle, right? For people to, you know, maybe attack or try to intimidate members of the jury, and that's why I think the judge should pay particular attention to any violations or any suggestions about anything related to the jury.

COLLINS: Well, and what's interesting about how this is all playing out is they're going to go into a separate room to have this discussion over the hearing in whether or not he violated the gag order. Trump himself, though, he tried to be party to some of these. He is actually doing that in his in his case.

So he will be alone at the defense table while the attorneys are the ones hashing this out with the judge.

BERMAN: And you can see right there, one prosecutor asked to approach the bench. Now all the lawyers have left the courtroom to sidebar.

COLLINS: But Donald Trump is alone at the defense table.

BERMAN: I'm sure he loves that.

COLLINS: Which is just remarkable moment is were talking about what this looks like and seeing your, the first true two days of this trial, he is seated alone at the defense table as prosecutors and his defense attorneys our kind of making both of their cases to the judge over whether or not he violated the gag order on what the punishment for that's going to be he did.

BERMAN: All right. They are in sidebar right now. The lawyers have left the courtroom. Donald Trump there alone.

Paula Reid, Kaitlan Collins, standby. We're going to take a quick break.

When we come back, much more on this hearing over the border and Donald Trump's New York criminal trial. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR: Okay, just want to give you an idea of what you're going to be seeing throughout the hours. On the left side of the screen, you'll be seeing live updates from our reporters who were inside the courthouse because, of course, cameras are not allowed in court.

But you'll see a play by play of the proceedings as they are happening. Right now, Donald Trump is sitting alone in this courtroom at the -- at the defense table because his attorneys are in the middle of a chat with the judge, a sidebar in which he is not involved. So, a strange scene for a former president sitting in the middle of that courtroom.

This is all going on, of course, in the backdrop of the ongoing criminal trial that is happening but the battle in another case, over the $175 million bond that Donald Trump was ordered to pay in the civil fraud trial that he lost has now been resolved. New York attorney general and Trump reached an agreement on the terms of that bond finally.

Joining me now, Russ Buettner, Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter for "The New York Times". He's been breaking in stories on Donald Trump's personal finances since 2016, including incredible investigation into two decades of Donald Trump's tax information that you and several porters got to hold up and went through.

I want to talk to you about what has happened here. Yesterday, one of the things that we heard from Donald Trump was him railing against this $175 million bond and the confusion or the questions over whether or not it was done properly by the state attorney general.

What does that tell you as you've looked into his finances for so long, what does that tell you about where he is in his finances now? RUSS BUETTNER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I

think first it tells you that his finances are the most important thing in his life in the perception of that, right? The perception that he is in mostly wealthy & that everything that he has is worth billions of dollars is what matters most to him and his identity.

I think that that number is so important to him, as you said, that he's like really wrestling with to make clear that he's got that money and that its all there. Tells you just how close it is to the line. When we looked at his finances since "The Apprentice", it's sort of dwindled off in popularity. That money had cut off. The money from licensing fees had really dropped with the popularity of "The Apprentice".

His finances had really diminished over the last few years. He sold some assets. So, we had for the first time a little more cash. He was really low in cash.

SIDNER: That hotel in D.C., right?

BUETTNER: A hotel in D.C. in which he had to sell because he was having to pump $10 million a year into it to keep it open. Those -- that produced a little bit of a windfall, not quite covering as tall investment in those things, but still, he's got a little bit of cash but that's about it. And this puts him right on the line. And if he gets more below that much, he starts to have a difficulty, maybe even making payroll. He's going to be living off of the cash flow of those businesses.

So I think this is really an existential moment for him that decision, if you lose the 475, he has a major problem. He will no doubt have to unload some assets and probably into a market and a situation that's not going to be good for him.

SIDNER: He's already experienced to several bankruptcies. Do you see that heading in that direction if the $475 million stands?

BUETTNER: I think he would only do that as a tactic to try to avoid the pain of that. When he did bankruptcies before, they were structured bankruptcies, which means he had an agreement with his lenders, his investors, that this is how its going to look.

And you go into the court. Judge signs off on it and it's all done. If you just file bankruptcy, that cast an air over -- of uncertainty over everything.

SIDNER: Right.

BUETTNER: Then someone else is in charge of what gets sold off and what you get to keep. I don't think you would want to do that. I think he'll try to find ways to get out of things to produce cash, and still save some face.

SIDNER: When you looked into these two decades of tax information that you and your colleagues were able to get a hold of when it comes to the way that Donald Trump does business. And some of the issues that you found within those documents how do you juxtapose that?

Because Donald Trump is saying, look, this is purely political. I'm being persecuted. On the other hand, in the context of what you learned in going through all of those decades of tax records, how do you see this case?

[09:45:07]

BUETTNER: It's an excellent question, Sara. I think this case, it really looks like the sort of culmination of a long reckoning for Donald Trump. He's been under almost continual investigation by three successive New York attorney generals, two successive Manhattan district attorneys in New York City, his home business center for almost 20 years now.

Trump University started, that was a major investigation. And then there was investigation into some fraudulent misrepresentation they made about SoHo Hotel that they were building. And then the foundation that they organized then payroll tax fraud that sent Allen Weisselberg, his chief financial officer, to prison.

SIDNER: Prison.

BUETTNER: Right? So that's that -- this is a long continuum and you see him finally sorted, having to answer in a court of law for some of these things, not just in a civil court rescue there.

SIDNER: Russ Buettner, thank you so much. Really interesting. Your investigation is incredible. It is a very good read no matter when you decide to do, appreciate your time.

All right. We're going to head back to court because the attorneys have gone back into court and have handed over some information to the judge and we're now hearing from them.

John Berman is out there listening and watching all of it -- John.

BERMAN: Yeah.

We are getting a play-by-play from inside the courtroom where this hearing has begun over Donald Trumps alleged violations of this gag order. You can see on your screen right now the post were getting from our people sitting there. The prosecutor during this hearing just said that each one of Trump's posts, quote, pose a very real threat to the proceedings.

Now, just before that, the judge said what were here for today in this hearing is to find out if Donald Trump will be held in contempt for any of these alleged violations of the gag order.

I am here, not far from the court with CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid, and, of course, Kaitlan Collins, as well.

This hearing is on. The judge by the end of this could hold Donald Trump in contempt. REID: Yeah, it's totally possible. And we heard a right that you can

see on your screens, as prosecutors are talking about how these posts pose a very real threat to these proceedings. He goes on to say that these posts both intimidate both the defendant's direct targets and others who may be called to testify during this trial.

And the point of the gag order its to protect witnesses, protect the jury, protect prosecutors, people who are just either doing their job are complying with their civic duty so that they are not intimidated, that they are not harm first and foremost, but also that they are not afraid to participate in these proceedings. And prosecutors are arguing that Trump's violations repeated up to ten, they just added another one, so at least 11, that these are clear violations of the gag order and putting this whole trial, this historic trial at risk.

COLLINS: I mean, Trump walked outside of the courtroom yesterday and look, that's what they're pointing to right now. Prosecutors say Trump violated the gag order again Monday outside of the court, he did it right here in the hallway is the same hallway that we solve speaking in this morning, he came out and he was being very critical of Michael Cohen, and he downplayed the legal work that Michael Cohen did for him, knowing how much of this is going to rely on him.

And here's an indication of what the judge is going to do here because he has a real concern about Trumps words impacting the judicial proceedings here.

BERMAN: Trump is not reacting to the prosecutor accusing him of violating the gag order. He is continuing to look straight forward, not at the prosecutor. We got to note a moment ago that Trump was also passing notes to his attorney as this hearing takes place.

Paula, Kaitlan, stand by for one moment. We are going to take a quick break.

The hearing to see whether Donald Trump will be held in contempt for violating the -- this gag order continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:53:04]

BERMAN: All right. Welcome back to CNN special live coverage. We are very near the courthouse were right now, there is a hearing underway to see whether Donald Trump is in contempt of court for violating the various gag orders in place for his New York criminal trial. Prosecutors are right now arguing that he's violated it least 11 times, they say right now, and they've been going through point by point when they say Donald Trump has crossed a line by things that he said about the jury, by things that he has said about prosecutors, by things that he has said about potential witnesses.

With me now is CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.

And so far, Elie, it's sort of been a point-by-point case from the prosecutors of where Donald Trump has crossed the line. What do you see here?

HONIG: Well, I think, the prosecutor's case here is fairly straightforward. I think Donald Trump's violations have been unambiguous. They've gone against the heart of the gag order, which its important to reiterate, only prohibits Donald Trump from making public comments about jurors, witnesses, court staff, prosecutors, staff, and family members.

But the examples prosecutors have here, I think go squarely against it. I'm really interested to see how on Earth is Trump's team going to defend him against some of these allegations. That should be coming up shortly.

BURNETT: And when the judge looks at this, we've been talking for some time, how is options are limited? But do you expect some kind of clear statement?

That -- hang on one second, we're getting an update. I'm getting it read to me right now. Please read me the update.

Okay. So, Elie, one of the things that the prosecutor is saying is that going after Michael Cohen is a recurring theme in these posts. And undoubtedly Donald Trump has talked about Michael Cohen, a great deal on social media.

The flip side of that is Michael Cohen is talking about Donald Trump.

Does that have any effect legally?

HONIG: So, legally at this point, no, John.

[09:55:01]

To be clear and for sure, Michael Cohen has far and away been the primary focus of Donald Trump's social media post, his public comments. He is focusing much of his fire on Michael Cohen. On other people as well, but Cohen is the primary target.

One of the arguments Trumps has made publicly at least is, well, it's not fair because Michael Cohen is out there saying negative things about me, about this case on a daily basis, often more than once a day. But the answer to that is you have to ask the judge for the remedy.

BERMAN: Elie --

HONIG: You don't get to just violate the gag order. Yeah.

BERMAN: Uh-huh. So, Elie, one of the things that the prosecutor has said is noted that Donald Trump is called Michael Cohen, a serial perjurer. So they're getting into the specifics of the things that Trump has said.

HONIG: Yeah. And that goes squarely against the gag order and he is not allowed to make public comments about any witness or likely witness. Clearly, Michael Cohen is a likely witness and calling him a serial

perjurer goes right to the heart of that. It's a flagrant violation. And, again, John, it's not a defense at this point for the contempt proceeding for Donald Trump to say, well, he's been saying bad things about me, too.

If that's the case, then Donald Trumps lawyers can go to the court and say, we need to expand the gag order, but he can't just violate it.

BERMAN: All right. Elie Honig, standby.

Much more to come on this front. The hearing, it continues.

Let's go back to Kate and Sara.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, absolutely. Much more to come, and it's happening all in real time. John is down at the courthouse where it's all playing out.

Thank you all so much for joining us. This is CNN NEWS CENTRAL. Our special live coverage continues right now.

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