Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Now, Hearing on Whether Trump Violated Gag Order in Hush Money Case; Prosecutors Say Trump Violated Gag Order Ten Times; Defense Says, Trump Allowed to Respond to Political Attacks. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

Right now in a New York courtroom, lawyers are arguing over a commonly asked question, has Donald Trump's rhetoric gone too far? Prosecutors say the former president has violated the gag order in his hush money trial at least ten times. The gag order forbids Trump from verbally attacking witnesses, the jury or others involved in the case.

These are images of the former president seated at the defense table. Before entering the courtroom, he spoke railing against President Biden and other topics, but avoided any mention of this morning's hearing.

And I just want to point out on the left side of your screen, you'll be seeing live updates from our reporters inside the courthouse, a play-by-play of the proceedings as they happen. And, of course, we'll be talking about all of it.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins joins us live from outside the courthouse. Kaitlan, what stands out to you? What will the judge be listening for from both prosecutors and Trump's defense attorneys?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, right now, Jim, it's prosecutors who are making their argument that Trump did knowingly and willfully violate this gag order. They are citing at least ten posts within a one-week period that he made on Truth Social.

But they're also talking about what he said just yesterday, leaving the courtroom, where he invoked Michael Cohen's name. He criticized him. He downplayed the legal work that Michael Cohen had done for the former president.

And as you see there, the prosecutors are saying, these violations were made with knowledge and willful beyond a reasonable doubt, which basically means Trump knew this gag order was in place, he knew what the gag order limited him from saying, and he still willfully violated it. And so they are essentially, right now, making their argument to this judge before the defense has a chance to argue to him.

But there was one moment, as this got underway, Jim, where Trump's attorneys came into the room, the prosecutors came into the room, the judge took the bench, and then those attorneys and the judge went into a side room.

It's not clear to us yet what they were discussing, but Trump was sitting alone at the defense table while that was happening. They have now returned to the room, and they are going through this, essentially asking the judge to find a way to make Trump stop violating this gag order.

ACOSTA: Yes. And just the last minute, we got another little tidbit, the prosecutor saying, quote, there is no doubt this defendant made these statements. Kaitlan, how much will the judge weigh the potential that witnesses or jurors could be endangered when Trump rails against them? That's been a familiar theme for Trump in all of these legal proceedings he's been through.

COLLINS: Yes. And I think the jury comments that he's been making deserve special scrutiny here because he not only had posted on Truth Social, essentially implying that they were trying to put liberal activists were the words that he used on this jury, but also last night in an interview, he commented on the jury, which is something he is not allowed to do from this gag. You can't comment on the jury at all. The other posts say you can't attack them, but it's essentially saying that he cannot comment on the jury.

He was commenting on the jury alleging that it's made up of 95 percent Democrats, claiming that it was rushed, even though it took several days, actually longer than it typically would, to assemble a jury. And his attorneys, of course, had a say in striking people from that jury that they did not believe would be fair to their client.

And so that is a new twist to this. And that is something that we are just told prosecutors have brought up inside that courtroom and on this hearing.

And so the real question here is, of course, what the judge here, Judge Juan Merchan, is going to ultimately decide.

We also have CNN's Paula Reid here covering all of this with me. And, Paula, you know, prosecutors are making their argument right now. A big question is how is Trump's legal team going to defend him?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, it's interesting. Right now, they're talking about a lot of these different posts that he has made, and some of these posts, you know, they do reference politics or MAGA, and I think his team is going to put all of this under the umbrella of unconstitutional, restricted political speech.

Now, I don't think that argument is going to win the day. COLLINS: On what you're saying right there, prosecutors are saying throwing a MAGA into a post does not make it political. It actually may make it more ominous, they're arguing, to your point.

REID: Because their big umbrella argument is that his gag order is unconstitutional. That has not been a successful legal argument so far, but specifically they argue because Trump is running for the White House, he's the presumptive Republican nominee, that his speech is political speech, largely, and entitled to heightened protections.

[10:05:05]

This is an issue that he has litigated at some of his other ongoing cases. And we know, of course, there are limits to political speech. Of course, Kaitlan, like we are so often, we're in a completely unprecedented situation. We have a presidential candidate who's also a criminal defendant, but gag orders, you know, these are part of the judicial system.

It's not clear why he should not be subject to a gag order. So, I think today they'll make their usual constitutional arguments, but I think they're always also going to argue about the limits, who is covered. I think we're going to see them focus on some specific people, one of the prosecutors, of course, Michael Cohen and then the judge as well.

COLLINS: And for Michael Cohen, you know, what I have heard from a lot of Trump sources is, well, how is it fair that Michael Cohen gets to attack Donald Trump but Donald Trump can't say anything, can't attack Michael Cohen in return? And yesterday, Trump attacked Michael Cohen first and Michael Cohen responded on Twitter going after him. You know, I do think that's a question of how does the judge handle that.

REID: In the eyes of the law, it's so simple, right? He is the defendant. Michael Cohen is presumed to be one of the key witnesses in this case. You cannot attack him. We have to remember this is extraordinary when we're thinking how this will resonate in a court of public opinion because both of these men have enormous platforms and they just attack each other relentlessly.

I mean, some of Michael Cohen's attacks on Trump I can't even repeat on camera, right, because of a language that he used. But the fact is, right now, Trump is a criminal defendant. Michael Cohen has been in the past, but he is not right now. He is a witness in this case. That's why I think any argument about how this is unilateral towards Michael Cohen will lose in this courtroom, but might get some traction in the court of public opinion.

COLLINS: Yes, it was certainly a creative nickname, we'll say, that Michael Cohen used yesterday.

And, Jim, the prosecutor is right now noting that Trump's attempt to fight this gag order previously was denied. They've had multiple challenges against it. And they say, you know, there's no provision in this order for responding to attacks. It doesn't basically give Trump an out to respond to witnesses.

ACOSTA: Right. This was already sorted out before this got going. I mean, that's the message there from the prosecution. And so they're clearly asking the judge to weigh in and do something about it.

And joining me now for more on all of this, CNN Legal Analyst and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General for the Department of Justice Elliot Williams.

Yes, Elliot, I'm mean let's just jump in on this. I mean, what do you make of what we're hearing in our side panel there, these little tidbits coming from inside the courtroom? The prosecutor seems to be saying over and over to the judge like, hey, you got to do something about this.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. And there's a fine line that the judge has to tow here, and these are all the things that Kaitlan and Paula were talking about. Number one, where is the line between what is protected speech from a candidate and someone who is interfering with the administration of justice in his own trial? And some of those are quite delicate.

Now, the Michael Cohen question is going to be a much tougher one because, as they say, you have two people who are sort of going after each other and sniping in public. Going after the jurors is really a problem. And I think if there's anything that the judge is going to respond to directly, it's those statements about the jury pool.

ACOSTA: Well, and to that point, I mean, Trump was speaking out about the juror yesterday. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That jury was picked so fast, 95 percent Democrats, the area is mostly all Democrats. You think of it as just a purely Democrat area. It's a very unfair situation, that I can tell you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes. Elliot, I mean, what do you make of that? I think Trump is basically saying to his followers out there or supporters out there this jury can't be fair. Look at who they are. Look how they're all Democrats and so on.

WILLIAMS: The most amazing thing about how fast this jury was picked, and I was surprised by how fast it was pick, was because the judge summarily got rid of everyone who said they could not be fair to Trump. Under normal circumstances, the judge would have gone through every single juror and asked them methodically.

After they said I can't be fair, you would have called them up and said, okay, if I give you the instructions on the law, can you be fairer? And most people say, of course, I can, and they'd be back in the pool. The judge here essentially used a hatchet and got rid of everybody, all the people who sort of even claimed, perhaps wrongly, that they couldn't fair the judge.

So, yes, it was fast, but it fast in a way that ended up being far more fair to former President Trump than other ways they could have handled jury law.

ACOSTA: Well, and let's look at what the prosecutor is saying here. There's no indication that Trump's claim he's responding to a tax is anything more than an after the fact justification I mean, what do you make of this? I mean, he wants to be able to talk about Michael Cohen He wants be about the people are going to testifying against him. The judge said you can't do that.

WILLIAMS: Right.

ACOSTA: Yes, so he says he want a hall pass here? Is it?

WILLIAMS: He does. It's just so complicated given the fact that the former president has been in the public eye for, you know, at this point, decades, but let's say five or ten years. Some statements would have happened before the trial, some statements would have continued through the trail, and some are happening right now, and will continue on in the future.

Which are the ones that are going to be seen as permissible, and which are ones that aren't, because they are blurry, they bleed into each other, and the some of them on their face are probably problematic.

[10:10:00]

But some them are maybe just in the world of discourse from a candidate might be permissible.

ACOSTA: And Elliot, what about consequences here? Trump was fined $15,000 for violating his gag order in the civil fraud trial. I mean, is that possible? We'll see something like that here. You see on our side panel, the prosecutor, we are asking the court to impose the max $1,000 fine for each of the ten violations.

So, it sounds like they're not saying, put the former president in a holding cell or something. They're saying, it's time for a fine. Send them a message.

WILLIAMS: As far as I understand, under New York law, and it's a little bit complicated here, to put him in a holding cell, you'd have to witness him in court, like jumping over the table and choking a bailiff or something like that. It would be a really extreme scenario for that to happen.

So, the prosecutors are rightly asking for a fine. You really can't get much more than that under New York law. The judge may warn the former president or may fine him.

Now, he's a billionaire. What it is right here would be $10,000.

ACOSTA: It's a speeding ticket. WILLIAMS: It's a speeding ticket. So, who's to say it might be more symbolic, but it's not, I think, going to compel much, much better behavior out of the defendant.

ACOSTA: As people in New York know, you have to pay your tickets.

WILLIAMS: You got to pay your tickets.

ACOSTA: Elliot, thank you so much. Stay with me.

In just a few minutes, former tabloid publisher David Pecker will return to the stand to testify. What he's likely to be asked about next.

You're live in the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

ACOSTA: All right. Right now, we are keeping you up-to-date on what's happening inside that New York courtroom where Judge Merchan is hearing arguments over whether Donald Trump has violated his gag order. On the left side of your screen, you'll be seeing live updates from our reporters inside a play-by-play of the proceedings as they happen.

Right now, the Trump team led by Attorney Todd Blanche is talking to the judge.

Let's go back out to Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, we're seeing these little tidbits come in. We don't have cameras in the courtroom sadly, but we can get these little updates every now and then. And it sounds as though the former president's attorney is offering all kinds of explanations as to why he keeps doing this. How is that going over inside the courtroom?

COLLINS: Yes, Jim, we're just getting our dispatches from our intrepid reporters in the room. And Trump's attorney is up now making his argument, arguing that Trump has not violated this gag order. And Todd Blanche is saying that Trump does know the ramifications and the parameters of this gag order and that he did not violate it willfully, they are arguing.

That is obviously a direct contradiction of what prosecutors just got up and argued. And I should note that as prosecutors were making their argument, they were saying that they don't believe the answer to Trump violating this gag order right now, they believe, is jail time, but they were saying, you know, that is an option that is, you know, the results of a gag order if any other regular person violated it.

What Todd Blanche is arguing is that Trump is responding to people like Michael Avenatti and Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels and allegations being made by them. And they're saying that it's a political response, that it's not relevant to the case. And Todd Blanche is pushing back on what prosecutors had just said that, you know, putting MAGA in a post doesn't make it a political post. Instead, they were saying it makes it more ominous, potentially.

Todd Blanche is saying, well, there's nothing that Donald Trump does that is not devoid of politics here and saying that everything really does have a political tinge to it when it comes to the presumptive Republican nominee.

What we are told by our reporters, as you can see there on the screen, is that Trump is looking straight ahead, not really responding as these arguments are going back and forth. And, of course, once Todd Blanche finishes, Jim, that means it's going to be up to the judge to decide how does he handle this, how does he respond, and does he agree with prosecutors that Trump has violated this order on multiple occasions.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Kaitlan, it almost sounds as though Todd Blanche is asking the judge to give Trump permission to keep posting on Truth Social. I mean, apparently, he was saying a few moments ago that the comments that Trump is making on Truth Social are basically in response to things that Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen have said in the past.

COLLINS: Yes, he is. And that's also notable because what prosecutors want here is not just for Trump to be fined, they want those ten posts to be deleted from Truth Social. They want them to be removed. The post quoting a Fox News host, quoting New York Post articles, they want them to be removed.

And Todd Blanche seems to be saying that what Trump is doing here, and, oh, I should note the judge here is asking Blanche, that's Trump's attorney, to refer directly to the posted issue rather than just inferring the general meaning of comments from Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels. He's basically asking Todd Blanche to specifically defend the exact post that Donald Trump has cited here.

And I should note that what prosecutors are pointing to is about ten posts on Truth Social from a week-long period in April, though they're noting comments that he made just yesterday in court, comments that he's made about the jury, ones we saw even last night, of course, those comments as well. And so that's the question here before Judge Merchan, as he's putting Blanche on the spot, asking him to respond to the post directly themselves.

ACOSTA: All right. Kaitlan, keep us posted on what you see out there. We'll go back to you, of course. Many times, thanks so much.

Let's bring in CNN Legal Analyst Joey Jackson, a former criminal defense attorney, also with us, CNN's Katelyn Polantz, of course, back with us, CNN Legal Analyst Elliott Williams.

Joey, let me go out to you first. What do you make of these arguments that we're hearing over these Truth Social posts? It sounds like what Todd Blanche is asking for is kind of a hall pass. He wants Trump to be able to keep posting. It almost sounds like he's speaking to an audience of one here and not the judge, his client.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That is absolutely right. So, it's a sticky wicket, right? And it's that way because, obviously, this is in the backdrop of an election.

[10:20:00]

And so that makes it a little bit more dicey. How? Yes, you have a gag order just by way of resetting. That's why we're in court today because prosecutors are not taking too kindly to Trump's repeated posts on Truth Social, wherein he's lambasting witnesses and doing other things to inflame tensions.

And in violation of the gag order, that will be a judicial determination. But the reason that it's very complicated is, because, on the one hand, you have this election that's ongoing, and you have Trump wanting the ability to be able to respond to his critics.

At the same time, you have a gag order, which is protecting and preserving the integrity, not really, and not only of the proceeding, but of the safety and security of witnesses, jurors, family members, and others. And so the judge has a decision to make.

Yes, we have a First Amendment right to speak our piece, right, no more than in a political season when, of course, you want to get your message out there. At the same time, there are real consequences here, Jim, we know that. Why? Because you have people, right, not of sound judgment in mind who could really be led to engage in violent behavior. We never want to see that.

But by virtue of Trump's platform, you could incite people to that, right? And so the judge has to (INAUDIBLE). Because if he does it, what's going to be the tenor moving forward? If the judge does nothing, Jim, what then happens?

Trump now has created license to do whatever he wants to violate the gag order, and that can't be the case. He has to have some kind of stern punishment to prevent him from doing this again, again, again, and again.

ACOSTA: All right. And, Joey Jackson, we should note to our viewers right now, we're hearing from the courtroom that the judge is telling Todd Blanche, quote, when your client is violating a gag order, I expect more than one word.

So, it doesn't sound as though, Katelyn -- Katelyn Polantz is with us. It doesn't sound like the judge is all that impressed so far with some of Blanche's explanations. We're not to the end of it, obviously.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: We're not to the end of it.

ACOSTA: But what are some of these posts, obviously, that that are at issue here with this gag order?

POLANTZ: Yes. So, there's ten total that they're talking about, plus Trump's apparent public comments in the hallway yesterday about Michael Cohen after court. The Cohen post boiled down to two things, calling him a sleazebag alongside Stormy Daniels in one, and then a series of posts where Trump says he's a serial perjurer.

Let's set that aside. The one that they haven't talked about in real- time in this hearing yet, where Blanche hasn't talked about with the judge, is this other post that the prosecutors say is a very troubling post, April 17th on Truth Social. Donald Trump quotes Jesse Waters from Fox News. They are catching undercover liberal activists lying to the judge in order to get on the Trump jury.

The prosecutors are pointing to that and saying, this is really bad because the jurors are intimidated after this post went up that pointed to Fox News and coverage of juror profiles and commented on the Trump jury.

Juror 2 was no longer comfortable to serve on that jury, and the prosecutor said what happened here is precisely the sort of thing that a gag order is in place. It's about preventing intimidation of witnesses and of jurors and other people working on the case, jurors, first and foremost.

And the other thing to keep in mind here, what the prosecutors are doing with the judge, they are saying, make him care. We're asking for $1,000 of fines, but make him care that this is a court order he must follow.

ACOSTA: Yes, we're getting another little tidbit right now. The judge is pressing Blanche on specifics about Michael Cohen attacking Trump politically, saying, quote, there's no specific post that you're referring to, asking Blanche there. So, it looks like we're in the middle of a bit of a back and forth between the judge and Todd Blanche.

Everybody hang on though for just a moment. We have to take a quick break. Be right back. We'll talk about this.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

ACOSTA: Welcome back to CNN's live coverage of Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. Right now, a hearing is underway to determine if Trump violated the gag order put in place by the judge in order the prosecution says Trump has violated it at least ten times.

We'll go back out to Kaitlan Collins in New York for the latest. And, Kaitlan, I mean, we were just looking at this a few moments ago, some of these side panel excerpts during the commercial break, Judge Merchan raising his voice, quote, I'm asking the questions, I'm going to be the one who decides whether your client is in contempt. Judge Merchan says he's been asking Trump's attorney questions. He isn't getting answers. Judge to Trump attorney, what I do see is I keep asking you over and over again for a specific answer. I'm not getting an answer. He sounds frustrated.

COLLINS: Yes, to say it in the least, Jim, it's not going well for Todd Blanche right now, Trump's attorney, of course, who is defending his comments, or at least trying to, in this gag order hearing. But the judge is getting quite frustrated with Todd Blanche, and really where the point of tension began as Todd Blanche was defending it, saying that Trump had not violated this gag order, even though the prosecutors just pointed to ten instances where they said that he had.

The judge was asking Todd Blanche, well, what specific post from Michael Cohen is Trump responding to? Because they were arguing that it was this barrage of legal attacks, and Todd Blanche clearly not providing that specific post, instead just kind of referring to them in the general sense.

And the judge is getting quite frustrated with that, saying, I am very clearly asking you for something specific that you can point to here is to say why this was something that Trump was responding to. And instead, clearly, that argument is not going over well with Judge Merchan and how Todd Blanche is defending it.

[10:30:06]