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Former Tabloid Exec David Pecker Starts Second Day Of Testimony. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Magazine if people haven't -- aren't familiar with it, it's Trump Style.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

COLLINS: David Pecker used to publish it and put it in the Trump properties where people would go and he says, just starting in 1989. That's when they had this idea of creating Trump Style. He's going through the history of that.

He says, I presented it -- presented it to Mr. Trump and he liked the idea a lot. Paula, what do you think it's like for Trump as he's sitting there? Because these are like fond memories that David Pecker is recalling. He's flattering Trump right now --

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Right.

COLLINS: By saying he had this great idea to put this in in Trump's properties. That -- I mean, reminder, he is testifying against Trump at this moment.

REID: He is. But I'm sure that he understands intellectually that David Pecker is not here of his own volition, right? He was involved in the federal case, he got immunity to help with that case against AMI and Michael Cohen, and here again, today as a witness. He really doesn't have much of a choice.

But I -- also, one of the reasons that Trump was so contentious. There are a lot of reasons. But one of the reasons he was so contentious and struggled so much, particularly with the White House press pool because he was used to the David Peckers of the world.

He was used to people who would suppress stories that were difficult, amplify ones that were great, right, that were his friends, and would carry water for him. He was used to that sort of celebrity journalism. And I think that was one of the many reasons that he was often so frustrated with the White House press pool that just does not operate that way.

COLLINS: And what do you think the prosecutor is doing is they're trying to establish, you know, how long have you known Trump? What kind of relationship did you have with him? What is their intent with putting that out before getting to OK, what did you hear Trump say about suppressing negative stories?

REID: Clearly, he had -- he had a friendship. This was a Trump ally, who did not explain why he wanted to help Trump win in 2016. He was helping a friend. Yes, it was mutually beneficial in terms of business. But this was his friend and he wanted to help him.

Also, laying the groundwork that this is not hostile, right? This is not -- Trump has many enemies. But he -- this is not one of them. Now -- we have an update here on the side of the screen, I'm told.

Now, prior to acquiring the National Enquirer in 1999, Pecker said that he had a lot of dealings and discussions with Mr. Trump as a celebrity in his own right. I think that's right. I was in the '80s and the '90s, Trump was a celebrity but, in many ways, he was a tabloid celebrity. But prosecutors, to your question, they really want to set up the fact that Pecker is not an adversarial witness for Trump. This is just someone who's going to lay out some facts because we are going to see some extremely adversarial situations specifically with Michael Cohen, possibly Stormy Daniels as well. So, it's important.

COLLINS: And Pecker says, you know, at that time, he was -- referring to Trump, was very helpful introducing me to other executives and other people in New York, and he would always advise me if parties or events. To your point what we were talking about earlier, Phil, that this was a social relationship --

MATTINGLY: Right.

COLLINS: Between the two of them before that 2015 meeting that we keep referring to for people who aren't familiar with it. That's when Pecker went to Trump and said, how can I help your campaign. But clearly, this statement back way before Trump was running for office.

MATTINGLY: Yes, and I think laying the groundwork of how this relationship came to be, how long it is, and the depth of it. To some degree, maybe not deep in the sense of like, deeply emotional if you're just talking about parties and things -- and things like that. But you have in the latest update from our court when the prosecutor asking Pecker about "The Apprentice," obviously the former president's show, Pecker is saying the show was an instant success and he had a number of conversations with Trump about the show. I think his willingness to be very forthcoming about his view of how awesome Trump is, I think is fascinating about this entire dynamic, and I think probably gives a breed into the dynamic of their relationship itself over the course of the last several decades.

COLLINS: I mean, we've been talking about what this trial is going to be like for Trump. This must be such an unusual feeling from -- he is -- Trump loves flattery --

MATTINGLY: Right.

COLLINS: AS everyone knows, you know. His critics would admit that. His fans. Anyone. Trump loves to be flattered. And right now, David Pecker is talking about how Trump introduced him to people and had this successful show and his properties, Paula. I mean, it was really unusual for Trump to be at the defense table hearing this, knowing where this line of questioning is ultimately going.

REID: Absolutely. And you and I have heard him many times, all of this we heard him at his rallies, he talks about how -- you know, he didn't have to run for office. He had a really nice life before he decided to do this. And this is calling back to that time for the light.

And you see on our screen right now, we have the split screen of the criminal you know defendant in the middle with these callbacks to the fact that he used to be a star of The Apprentice. He used to go to great parties. This is the juxtaposition that he has, I think tried to set up when he argued to people, I didn't need to do this, but he's now arguing that he is paying a great price by being, in his word, prosecuted -- persecuted by the criminal justice system.

Then he says that "Trump would share The Apprentice ratings and show information with Pecker." He said -- this going to put a little forward there. But it said it was a mutually beneficial relationship.

We've said that a few times too, noting that he didn't have to pay Trump for it, but Trump got publicity for the show in return. So, he's talking about how right Trump would give him stories. He put them in the National Enquirer, and they both benefited from this relationship. And they're setting up of course, how Pecker and why Pecker would want to help him take the White House.

COLLINS: I mean, he is basically saying that when The Apprentice came out that Trump was sending the ratings of The Apprentice to David Pecker, and David pecker would then publish it in the National Enquirer. And I think this is fascinating because they're basically showing how David Pecker was doing Trump's bidding and was at his will with what they were publishing, which they're later going to say is at the heart of this case, and what Trump was trying to suppress to get into the Oval Office. But they're showing, you know, how they had this long-standing, you know, beneficial relationship, Phil.

[11:35:20]

MATTINGLY: Mutually beneficial when one was a celebrity, and one was trying to sell magazines or sell newspapers. And mutually beneficial when one was running a political campaign trying to be the President of the United States, and desperately needed help killing a story at the absolute worst moment of his entire campaign. I think you see them driving towards that point right now and establishing this relationship over the course of decades. And the idea that as Pecker said it's mutually beneficial, I think is very much part of the plan and the strategy here from prosecutors.

REID: Yes, absolutely. And shows that Trump was involved in this, right? This was a friendship. This was an allyship. All right, so the prosecutor is walking through the mechanics of the show, noting that contestants would compete to be hired and Trump would say you're fired as they were eliminated.

Of course, anyone who was around at the time remembers this -- remembers what a big deal this was. So, a lot of people were interested. So, it's probably great for Pecker to get the -- you know, the inside scoop.

COLLINS: Yes, it's quite a trip down memory lane, Jake, walking through, you know, the beginning of The Apprentice --

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm happy too with this --

COLLINS: The depths of this friendship and what it looks like. And of course, a reminder, these two don't speak anymore. Donald Trump and David Pecker haven't spoken in years.

This interaction in the courtroom is fascinating. It is one of the first times that they have been this close to one another, as David Pecker is laying out the origins of this relationship that he had with Donald Trump, Jake.

TAPPER: Yes, fascinating stuff. Kaitlan, thanks so much. And the updates keep coming in. Pecker said before 2015, he saw Trump monthly or maybe quarterly. They had a real symbiotic relationship, Dana Bash, where Pecker would praise Donald Trump in print, and Donald Trump would give him a copy.

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. I mean, symbiotic transactional, this is something that he clearly still has, Pecker, kind of in his -- in his DNA, his muscle memory. You know, I -- talked to me to see this, so, Jake, I'm -- (INAUDIBLE)

TAPPER: Pecker said after Trump announced he was running for president, "I saw Mr. Trump more frequently, maybe once a month." So, they had a symbiotic relationship before he announced his candidacy. And then he announced his candidacy and Donald Trump saw David Pecker, publisher of tabloids, even more after he announced his presidential run.

BASH: Yes. I mean, why wouldn't he? If Donald Trump wants --

TAPPER: Because he's the publisher of the National Enquirer?

BASH: True. But you're also again, not putting yourself in the mind and in the sort of headspace of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Right.

BASH: Where he finally got to this place, the ultimate place he never thought he would get. Why wouldn't he bring David Pecker just as he did all of his friends around to brag, to show off, to do all the things that he has done, and frankly, in a lot of times, got him into some trouble?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I think Donald Trump knows how to sell magazines, and Pecker wanted to sell them. This makes sense. But I think even more interesting than Trump feeding him the ratings of The Apprentice, the fact that he fed negative stories --

TAPPER: Pecker is explaining that he and Trump would communicate by phone and frequently through their offices and assistants. Sorry.

GANGEL: No. I guess I --

TAPPER: We don't have cameras in the courtroom. We're just trying to bring updates to the people. Go ahead, Jamie.

GANGEL: No. I really wish we had a camera in the courtroom.

TAPPER: I sure do I -- so do I.

BASH: Yes.

GANGEL: Because --

TAPPER: Pecker said there were times that Trump's bodyguard would pass messages to Trump from Pecker. You know, he -- we've heard that before, also the importance of Donald Trump's bodyguard.

GANGEL: It just shows the extent of the communication between them. And also, what do we know? Donald Trump is a great consumer of media. He loves it when people write about him preferably. He likes it if it's positive. This was a way to know it was positive.

TAPPER: It was always positive.

BASH: Yes.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: And don't forget -- I mean, the timing of this is so important. He also said that they were friends until 2017. Think about the timeline of all these things and we learned the oral -- the opening statement you know, what have we done in terms of an e-mail exchange between Pecker and somebody else about following the election.

TAPPER: No. It was -- it was between Stormy Daniels' lawyer --

GANGEL: Lawyer.

TAPPER: And Dylan Howard, Pecker's --

GANGEL: Yes, the right-hand man.

TAPPER: Right-hand man. Pecker's right hand --

GANGEL: Yes.

TAPPER: Describing sitting in Trump's office when Trump's assistant walked in and gave him invoices Pecker, "I noticed that he reviewed the invoice and looked at the check and he would sign them."

COATES: This is important for the building of the actual testimony here. You want to establish that David Pecker had some level of communication, but it increased in frequency around the election. This is the whole idea of why the catch and kills increase.

Also, Donald Trump not only has to be in the room where this happened but had to have some knowledge of the actual invoices being signed and the way it was being done. And of course, he says that he visited Trump at Trump Tower on multiple occasions over the years. But again, if it increased in frequency during and around the actual election, that's a whole different ballgame to establish that there was some motivation to catch and kill for the purpose of influencing the election.

[11:40:02]

TAPPER: Although, we should -- remind everyone, Elie Honig. Catch and kill, David Pecker finding stories that were damaging about Donald Trump, paying for them, and then burying them not illegal, not a crime.

ELIE HONIG, SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Sleazy, but not illegal. And this is why this testimony that we're seeing right now is really important. David Pecker said I saw with my own eyes, Donald Trump's assistant would bring him invoices and checks, he would look at them and sign them. Because one of the key questions -- the crime here is falsification of business records.

And one of the key questions is going to be did Donald Trump know that the payment system was set up in this way, know that it was structured as "legal fees," or did he just do what some CEOs do, just sort of, I don't know, I signed what my assistant brings to me? That's going to become a point of contention. Because remember, the prosecution has those checks that were written out to reimburse Michael Cohen for the Stormy Daniels payments, some of which were signed by Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Yes. And. Jim Trusty, that -- this is the area that's most important in terms of the actual crime that the prosecutors are trying to prove, which again, we should remind our viewers is not going -- it's not a slam dunk case. It's a -- it's a lift of sorts because they have to prove that Donald Trump knew what he was doing when he signed those checks was false.

JIM TRUSTY, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Right. I mean, look, Elie's right. The reason they brought that testimony out was to try to establish essentially a pattern or a habit. It's really anecdotal but it's helping them argue eventually, this guy knows what he's signing off on. But I'm kind of struck again by the tactics going on. I mean the main thing that's happening is, the first witness, very much by design, is someone who's going to talk about stuff that's distasteful but not criminal.

And that's what they're trying to do is kind of flavor the rest of the proceedings with safe territory with a guy who, frankly, the defense may not cross-examine very much, and maybe a very friendly cross by the end of the day when we -- were whenever we get to it with Mr. Pecker because a lot of what he's saying is not necessarily directly hurtful to them. So, I think it's going to be really interesting to see, you know, where do they sandwich Michael Cohen, where do they put him in, but right now, this is pretty safe.

BASH: But they're also putting him up there with the quote about him saying that he did notice that Trump reviewed the invoice and looked at the check. He also might not necessarily be potentially illegal, the conversations that they had and the catch-and-kill operations that they did, but they're using him as a witness to the kind of businessman he is, particularly with the way that he writes checks.

TAPPER: But don't you think -- don't you think, Karen, that the defense could just say, but just to be clear, Mr. Pecker, you weren't there when Donald Trump wrote the specific -- signed these specific checks.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. But this case is much more than just about these checks and these invoices. If that's all it was about, then that would be a misdemeanor because falsifying business records in New York is a misdemeanor unless it's done with the intention to conceal or commit another crime. And David Pecker, he provides that other context, that other crime when they all got together --

TAPPER: Yes.

AGNIFILO: And conspired to --

TAPPER: David pecker on Trump as a businessman, "I would describe him as very detail." The prosecutor asked Pecker about Trump's approach to money. Pecker says that Trump was very cautious, very frugal.

AGNIFILO: So, the prosecution theory here is that there was a conspiracy, and the conspiracy was to plant negative stories about Trump's opponents and to suppress negative stories about Trump between David Pecker, Michael Cohen, and Donald Trump. And so, David Pecker is going to provide that important context when those conversations in furtherance of the conspiracy occurred. And frankly, it is true that paying hush money payments is not illegal.

TAPPER: Pecker describing how he first met Michael Cohen at a Bar Mitzvah in 2000 and how Trump introduced Cohen as his new hire to Pecker in 2007. Just establishing here, this is a web of people who knew each other.

AGNIFILO: But David Pecker was --when Trump announced his candidacy, and they formed this criminal conspiracy to suppress stories, at that point when David Pecker was paying people off to suppress those stories, that is considered an in-kind campaign donation, which is illegal. And don't forget, the Feds gave him immunity because they found that he had committed crimes. So, to say that --

TAPPER: David Pecker had committed crimes by doing this with Trump --

AGNIFILO: Yes.

TAPPER: And not declaring it --

AGNIFILO: Exactly.

TAPPER: As a campaign contribution.

AGNIFILO: Exactly. So, it's not -- it's not fair to say that it's completely OK to do this and that it's unseemly. It actually is criminal activity. It makes them co-conspirators, which means certain statements come in, etcetera. It change -- it changes the tone of it all. So, this is actually a really important witness to set the stage here.

TAPPER: And, Dana, we --

COATES: We can --

TAPPER: With Dana --

COATES: Wait, we can't go -- we have to -- we can't overstate this point though because there is a point in time, I know we're learning more about Pecker telling Trump that Trump told him that now my contacts should go through Michael Cohen. That's very important. But going back to one thing that he said. Pecker said I would describe Mr. Trump as very knowledgeable. I would describe him as very detail- oriented.

BASH: Exactly.

COATES: I would describe him almost as a micromanager. He looked at all aspects of whatever the issue was. That's extremely important. If you had -- I have a little bit of a checklist in my mind about what they need to get out of David Pecker and his testimony when they go to it. And that's part -- in part here, this catch and kill pattern, right, have to be.

[11:40:14]

TAPPER: If there was an issue, it could be daily, Pecker said his contact with Cohen. So, he would talk to Michael Cohen -- David Pecker talked to Michael Cohen. If there was an issue, they could talk every day.

COATES: Exactly. We need to know that there is some sort of catch-and- kill pattern. We're starting to establish that already. We need to know that there was some sort of maybe awareness, if not of the cook the books but at least awareness in terms of the micromanagement that he would have had or knowledge about what was actually on his different invoices. They're almost there.

TAPPER: The prosecutor asks David Pecker if he knows Hope Hicks. Yes, I do, Pecker said. So, this is the first time the Trump campaign aide and White House aide Hope Hicks, her name brought -- is brought up. And we're -- we are expecting Hope Hicks, at some point, to be called as a witness. She was involved according to the prosecution in some of these conversations --

COATES: Yes.

TAPPER: In one way or another when it comes to paying Michael Cohen to -- after he paid allegedly Stormy Daniels.

COATES: While he -- why Hope Hicks is so important is about the fallout of the Access Hollywood fallout, of other allegations. What was the containment principles about? Were they trying to make sure that in furtherance of trying to support the election, they were acting? That's going to be the big part here.

David Pecker has got to get testimony. And to the prosecution, this was not just a catch-and-kill scheme, but one intended to try to influence the actual presidential election. Whether Trump gave direct orders, whether he was aware that these invoices were somehow fraudulent is the key.

HONIG: What the prosecutors are doing here is drawing connections between their witnesses. Prosecutors know everything that David Pecker is saying and about to say. They know everything Michael Cohen will say. They know everything Hope Hicks will say.

Now, it's not all going to line up one hundred percent. That's impossible. But they are mindful of where does the testimony overlap and reinforce one another. And they want the jury, when Michael Cohen testifies or Hope Hicks testifies a week or two from now, to go all right, David Pecker said something very similar. They want to prepare the jury for that.

TAPPER: And Dana Bash, remind us who -- remind our viewers who Hope Hicks is and the significance of her.

BASH: Hope Hicks was --

TAPPER: Pecker says he knew Hope Hicks when she worked for Ivanka's company and did PR before becoming Trump's campaign communications director.

BASH: Thank you, David Pecker for giving that bio, so I don't have to. But when it comes to Trump --

TAPPER: But in terms of the character. Yes.

BASH: Sure. When it comes to Donald Trump. She was his gatekeeper. She was his comms director. She was at his side, particularly during this period of time. Always. Always.

And so, she was very involved in everything that happened. And that was true during the -- first of all, with the beginning of his presidential campaign. It was basically her and Corey Lewandowski and that -- and his family. And that was about it.

And I would -- should just say that since then, many, many years later, she -- I would say that she has become strange. She's not in Michael Cohen territory. She's not in the territory of others who have very much turned on him. But she's not anywhere near as close to him by all accounts that she was.

GANGEL: She is the ultimate inner circle person.

BASH: Right.

GANGEL: She was with him most of the time. She was on phone calls with him. She is known for steaming the wrinkles out of his pants on planes. She was very close to the family. When she takes the stand, depending on what she's -- I think you have an update, Jake.

TAPPER: Well, David Pecker said after Trump's campaign began in 2015, interest in Trump through his magazines skyrocketed. So, again, here we have the symbiotic relationship between the two men. Donald Trump would provide him with copy and access, and he would provide Donald Trump with very glowing coverage.

GANGEL: Just to pitch on Hope Hicks. We don't know what she's going to testify to yet. But she is someone who --

TAPPER: Pecker says they did research on covers to see what would sell the best. And it was Trump viewed as the boss in a boardroom. That's what would sell the best, Donald Trump as the boss in a boardroom.

GANGEL: To go back to Hope Hicks. She was so involved with the campaign in the room. We don't know what she's going to testify to. But she is someone who had a lot of first-hand knowledge about what was going on.

BASH: And if I can just add to that, I did say that she was one of only -- barely a handful of people who were involved -- was involved in the Trump campaign when it got off the ground. She had no political experience at all, as David Pecker just provided to us. She even got to know Donald Trump because she worked for Ivanka Trump in her -- one of her businesses, and then she was thrown into Trump world and to the political world.

TAPPER: There weren't a ton of experienced --

BASH: Yes.

TAPPER: Political operatives in his inner circle in those early days. David Pecker says that as Trump was flirting with the idea of running for president, the National Enquirer poll found that 80 percent of readership gave positive feedback. And we should remind people here that when we talk about what images sell the best and what the -- what the polling result is, we're talking about the National Enquirer audience. That's not representative of the American people as a whole. It is people who consume the National Enquirer.

[11:50:19]

David Pecker says that he attended Donald Trump's campaign announcement in June 2015. We, all of course, remember Donald Trump going -- descending the go -- down the golden escalator --

BASH: Yes.

TAPPER: And his comments about immigrants.

HONIG: That's a -- that's a subtle but important detail because that will stick in the jury's mind. And when the argument is made, as Karen was saying before, the reason they did this was to help his campaign. Well, guess who was standing there when Trump announced his campaign? David Pecker. TAPPER: Donald Trump watching Pecker as he testifies about being invited by Michael Cohen to attend an event at Trump Tower when Trump announced he was running for president. So just a little bit of color, Donald Trump is watching the witness, perhaps not surprisingly, given the fact that he is testifying in the trial of Donald Trump. Kaitlan Collins, back to you in New York.

COLLINS: Yes, Jake, it's fascinating. What prosecutors seem to be doing is really kind of weaving all of these people, Michael Cohen, Hope Hicks into was David Pecker is laying the story out. All -- obviously, we expect both of those individuals to also be called to sit where David Pecker is sitting, at the witness stand.

And Paula and Phil, as we look at what they're doing, they're -- Paula, they're kind of introducing this cast of characters, probably two of whom that may be known to the jury, but maybe not if they haven't been paying close attention. And the prosecutors seem to be saying, you know, this is who the characters that are going to be here. And I should note that prosecutors have just submitted an e-mail from Michael Cohen as evidence, as pecker saying, you know, once Trump was running for office, I was in touch with Michael Cohen multiple times a day.

REID: It really sets up the story well, and in a fun way, right? Because in the background, he's running a tabloid, and the jury is learning a little bit about the tabloid business. Yes, they've introduced you to, obviously David Pecker, the witness on the stand. You're being introduced for the first time to Michael Cohen, and also Hope Hicks, all people who are going to be key as the prosecution continues its case.

Now, I think our colleague Laura Coates referred to this a short time ago, but one of the most significant things I think that we have heard -- hold on and stop for just a second.

COLLINS: So, read that quote.

REID: So --

COLLINS: That's what Cohen said in the e-mail to Pecker asking him to come to Trump's campaign announcement. Said, no one deserves to be there more than you.

REID: Oh, boy. That's -- you know, that's such a great piece of evidence for the prosecution because they're inferring just how much he has done for Trump in the past and how much they expect he's going to do in the future, right, as he goes for the White House. And that's the crux of this case is that these 34 documents were falsified to suppress the hush money payments, to help Trump win the White House. Really, that's at the heart of this argument.

But Pecker also talked about how Trump was a micro-manager and very involved in the details. Now, that is damning because when it comes to these 34 documents, Trump is going to kind of try to distance. Now, Cohen's e-mail to Pecker goes on to say, as a friend, I would love it, if you could make it. Let me know so I can save you a seat next to me on the atrium floor.

So, he's going to be seated right next to Cohen, who you know, at this point is Trump's consigliere, his right-hand man, it puts pecker right in the inner circle at the outset of the campaign. A perfect way for the prosecution to set the stage.

COLLINS: Well, and what does it do also -- you know, we've been talking about Michael Cohen and all morning is Trump's been attacking him. Obviously, Trump's team is going to attack his credibility here. They're using evidence and e-mails from Michael Cohen and David Pecker to kind of establish just how in Trump's orbit was that Michael Cohen's inviting people to his campaign announcement.

MATTINGLY: And I think to some degree, there's layers to it, right? They're using David Pecker as the vehicle into painting a picture of Trump's world, a world in which Michael Cohen was the point of contact for David Pecker, who was very close to the former president. And by the time his campaign came around, was heading over to Trump Tower once a month or twice a month.

You know, I think what they're doing -- and I think this e-mail on this actual evidence is underscoring this point to some degree is Pecker, they have established, very close to the former president. Pecker now being told by Michael Cohen, then the consigliere and direct point of contact in this e-mail that it'd be very important. There's another update. It says, prosecutor asking Pecker about an August 2015 meeting --

COLLINS: That's the one.

MATTINGLY: In Trump Tower with Michael Cohen and Donald Trump. And this is what they have been building up. Establishing that the kind of vehicle to Trump's world. Why Michael Cohen was such a critical player here, despite what perhaps the defense is going to say about him? All leading to this point.

COLLINS: And can we remind everyone, this meeting and why this is so important if you're -- you know, have a real life and you're not paying close attention to this. This is this August 2015 meeting. That is actually potentially really consequential here because as we were just talking about how he met Hope Hicks and what she did.

David Pecker is saying Hope Hicks was in and out of that August 2015 meeting. And it involves three people who were in it, the principals. Donald Trump, Michael Cohen, and the guy on the witness stand right now, David Pecker. And obviously, that's where they talked about how Pecker could help Trump and his campaign. What could he do, using his platform, to help him?

[11:55:03]

REID: It's so significant. This is exactly what prosecutors have been building to because this is where Pecker promised to be "Trump's eyes and ears." Now, Pecker says he figured the meeting was to ask for something, but he didn't know what they wanted ahead of the meeting. And here's where they discussed, the three of them. Efforts to suppress negative stories about former President Trump and amplify positive ones, why to help Trump win the White House.

Another update. I'm told, Pecker says, at the meeting, Donald Trump and Michael, they asked me, what can I do and what my magazine could do to help the campaign.

COLLINS: Wait. So, this is a little different than how it had previously been reported, which was that basically, Pecker was asking, how can I help you. What pecker is clarifying on the stand here is really important. One, he's saying Michael Cohen invited him to this meeting, and two, that they were asking what can he do to help them.

MATTINGLY: Yes. And underscoring that he was invited to the meeting, did not know what it was about when he walked in, and when he walked in, they were made very clear what the meeting was going to be about. Pecker is saying, as it continues on, I would run or publish positive stories about Mr. Trump, and I would publish negative stories about his opponents. It's explicit, you know.

The mutually beneficial relationship that they built over the course of decades, now it's a campaign. Now, they're having this meeting, a meeting that wasn't called for by Pecker, it was called for by Trump. Pecker continues was to say, I said that I would also be the eyes and ears. I said I would be your eyes and ears.

COLLINS: So, I have to bring in someone who knows a lot about David Pecker, the National Enquirer and covered both of them, the entity and the person in depth and that is the contributing writer to Vanity Fair, Brian Stelter, who is here. And, Brian, as we're getting these updates, I'm going to read them to you live as we're getting them, just so you know, what's going on and so everyone knows what's happening inside this courtroom. But Pecker is --

BRIAN STELTER, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, VANITY FAIR: Yes.

COLLINS: Is testifying about this meeting that they had at Trump Tower in August 2015, as the campaign was getting underway. And he just says that he was -- that he was being asked, what can he do to help the campaign. And I should note. Trump is looking toward Pecker but not really reacting as he is talking about their meeting and what they discussed and how they can use the National Enquirer to help him.

STELTER: Yes. For Donald Trump, this is a profound betrayal, you know, for David pecker, one of his longtime friends to be sharing all these secrets. It's an incredible betrayal. But it is also a long time in the works, you know. We know they have not spoken for years. This relationship broke up in 2018. But right now, on the stand, we're learning about 2015 and 2016.

This incredibly beneficial relationship, almost like a spider web, with Trump and Michael Cohen and David Pecker all in the middle. And it's really striking to hear about Michael Cohen's involvement, not just in the payoff, but also in the more mundane matters. I remember Cohen once telling me about how he was the go-between between the Enquirer and Trump, just to approve a quote that Trump was going to give to the Enquirer. So now, Pecker is testifying to those exact same details and exposing how this very shady relationship worked. Kaitlan, you just pointed out checkbook journalism is a really uncomfortable phrase. This has nothing to do with real journalism. This is just about using the checkbook, and about using these magazines as propaganda and service of Trump. And as we're hearing on the stand, it worked really well for a long time.

COLLINS: Yes. Well, and, Brian, to speak to that, Pecker just recalled that he said, and this is a quote from David Pecker on the witness stand right now. If I hear anything negative, or if I hear anything about women selling stories, I would notify Michael Cohen. Obviously, that's the heart of this entire case is women selling stories.

STELTER: Exactly.

COLLINS: Basically, David Pecker found out. He called Trump to let him know.

STELTER: This is how the Enquirer protected rich and powerful people. But only specific, rich, and powerful people. At the same time, the Enquirer was being weaponized to help Trump win the election. It was also being used --

COLLINS: Brian, one --

STELTER: To destroy Hillary Clinton's campaign.

COLLINS: On second, Brian Stelter.

STELTER: And we're hearing about both sides.

COLLINS: There's an -- there's an important update because Pecker says that Michael Cohen then would be able to have those stories killed on another magazine or have them not to be published, or somebody would have to purchase them. Basically, saying he was this, you know, way to tip off Michael Cohen that women are out there and shopping around their stories about Donald Trump.

STELTER: I was once told by a former Enquirer executive that this idea of catch and kill was so common. It was so normalized that people didn't even realize how morally compromised they were, how morally compromising it was. What we're hearing are really sleazy details about the scummy nature of some publishing. But for them, it was normal. It was everyday work.

COLLINS: It's remarkable though because it's a presidential candidate who's getting tipped off by the -- one of the publishers of one of -- you know, the king of tabloids really when it came to the National Enquirer and the decisions of boosting Trump, he was talking about how popular the covers of Trump were.