Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Former Tabloid Exec And Longtime Trump Friend Testifies For Second Day; Biden Speaks In Florida One Week Before State's 6-Week Ban Takes Effect; Trump To Meet With Former Japanese PM Today; Pro- Palestinian Protests Erupt At Universities Across The US. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: With the former president and a conversation that Pecker recounted having with Donald Trump. At this point, they are still scrambling to understand what the allegation is and whether she wants to go public with it or if she'd rather not.

So I think what we will hear next from David Pecker is he will then explain how they agreed to make this $150,000 payment to her that AMI, his company did, and then that there was some cold feet about it after the fact. And this will then tee up the Stormy Daniels payment because there were three catch-and-kill deals as part of this alleged pattern that prosecutors have put out. And we've now heard testimony about the first two, Stormy Daniels will follow.

And that will get to the center of this case, this main allegation here, the $130,000 payment, and then the eventual cover-up that prosecutors say took place through the falsification of business records. So we're getting now into kind of the meat of the case, getting into the core part of, what prosecutors say was this conspiracy to influence the 2016 presidential election.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Kara Scannell, Jeremy Herb, appreciate that detail from inside the courtroom.

It is the top of the hour on CNN NEWS CENTRAL. I'm Boris Sanchez with Brianna Keilar in the nation's capital. And we are following the historic testimony in the second day of Donald Trump's hush money case in Manhattan. Let's discuss with our expert panel.

We have with us Michael Moore, Elliot Williams, Gloria Borger and Jamie Gangel.

Michael, first to you, what did you make of the testimony from David Pecker?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Not surprising, to be frank. I mean, I thought that it was - he was laying the groundwork. He was starting to tell the story. These are seasoned prosecutors. They know that the jury wants to hear the story. He's laying out some things in anticipation of other witnesses. At the same time, there was no big bombshell. There was nothing that made me think, ah, this is the smoking gun they've been waiting on. But I don't know that that's what he's used for.

I think the one thing they need to watch out for, the prosecution that is, is does the catch and kill game, if you will, does that start to look normal? Is that something that suddenly doesn't have the same nefarious intent? If it becomes just a regular part of sort of a political campaign or what famous people do or whatever the case may be, that's something they need to watch out for. I mean, we'll hear more from him, I'm sure, as we go through, but ...

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes. Let's talk more about that, because I especially think that if you just watch popular representations of journalism in movies, I mean, I, like, bang my head against a wall sometimes because that's not how it operates, right? That's not journalism. It's not ethical.

SANCHEZ: Sure.

KEILAR: And yet here we are, that is what was happening in this case and there is a risk that if someone doesn't have any background when it comes to journalism, they may think that this is normal. That's a huge risk for the prosecution.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And moreover, this is - look, and particularly in Manhattan, juries do complicated cases all the time. There's financial fraud cases dealing with complex transactions all the time. But in fairness, this charge is slightly complex when you're talking about falsifying business records for the purpose of concealing or committing a felony, that was a campaign violation. It doesn't roll off the tongue smoothly.

Now, again, that's not to say that a New York jury isn't incapable of finding someone guilty on a complicated crime. But it's not homicide or arson or something that it happened, you did it and people sort of get their heads around it. And so I just think, you might lose some jurors. And prosecutors have to be mindful of that. How can they put this in terms that the ordinary juror can understand?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hopefully, you wouldn't think it was the normal way journalists do business, because it is not. But what it is, is tawdry. And what he did or they're trying to get him to do is be a corroborating witness, because they know that Michael Cohen is going to testify. And he was part of the triumvirate in that 2015 meeting with Donald Trump, Pecker and Cohen, in which they hatched this plan, apparently, to kind of protect Donald Trump during the election.

And so since Michael Cohen's credibility has some issues, shall we say, that David Pecker is there to corroborate what Michael Cohen will undoubtedly say on the stand. And so what they want him to do is be a believable witness and I think so far, they have succeeded in that.

WILLIAMS: And picking up on Michael's point, that's the rationale of the, I think, behind putting David Pecker first.

BORGER: Yes. WILLIAMS: It's a compelling witness and one that doesn't come with a lot of baggage and sort of things that you can impeach him on. He doesn't have prior convictions for lying that Michael Cohen does.

BORGER: De doesn't seem embarrassed at all ...

WILLIAMS: Right.

BORGER: ... by doing all this either.

WILLIAMS: That's not - actually that's not to say that Michael Cohen may not provide truthful testimony.

BORGER: Right.

WILLIAMS: Of course, he could provide believable testimony. But he's a witness that the defense can impeach with his prior conduct. It's just the fact.

BORGER: Exactly.

SANCHEZ: Jamie, your view of Donald Trump absorbing all of this, the tawdry details, as it was described a moment ago, and then coming out to the cameras, and essentially having his moment on the campaign trail or what would have been a moment on a campaign trail, a moment outside of a courtroom where he gets this podium to sort of give his view of things.

[15:05:01]

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't know what was going through his head today, but he looked pretty miserable. And I just looked at today from the point of view of the jury. If you're watching this, you know, Donald Trump in many ways is larger than life. But after a while, when you're a juror and you're sitting there with him in the courtroom and you're watching him, remember there was one potential juror who we interviewed afterwards, and she talked about going into the courtroom and, oh, it's Donald Trump. And then after a while, she said he was just some guy.

SANCHEZ: Just a guy.

GANGEL: And I do wonder about the effect of that over time on the jurors, that he really becomes just some guy. I look at the National Enquirer a little bit differently. A lot of people believe what they read in the National Enquirer, but a lot of people don't. This is a New York jury. It may be mixed what they think about it.

But to me, the most interesting context was if this was a conspiracy to affect the election, what did they show today that Pecker and Trump were friends and there was a history. He went after Ted Cruz. He went after Marco Rubio. There is a context for taking down Donald Trump.

BORGER: And he was helpful to Trump. This is not an enemy of Donald Trump's, like Michael Cohen is a sworn enemy right now. So, Pecker was saying, yes, we were friends for a very long time. And I did whatever I could do to help him. And he got me invited to parties and he invited me to the presidential announcement.

So they portrayed Pecker as somebody who wasn't coming in there to stick a knife in Donald Trump's back, but was rather somebody in there to kind of just tell what had happened.

KEILAR: That's what I think is so interesting about some of this testimony today, which is, and yesterday, which is that we're getting a real sense of how Donald Trump was protecting himself ahead of that election. And I wonder with the details about the different kinds of stories that were either put out there or that were killed, what you think that is painting for people outside of the courtroom?

BORGER: Well, it portrays somebody who was surrounded by people, who did nothing but protect him and try and hurt his perceived enemies, like Ted Cruz, for example, who was a popular Republican candidate who was challenging him. And it gives you a real sense of the kind of protection that Donald Trump always had around him and that he solicited from people who worked for him, the kind of loyalty he demanded.

And what Pecker got in return was access to some kind of society.

GANGEL: And good stories.

BORGER: And good stories.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

BORGER: Right.

GANGEL: Trump was feeding him stories. The other part of this is, I don't think we can stress enough the timing of all of this. It was October. Access Hollywood had happened October 7th. That was a bombshell, guys. Don't forget what that was like.

Remember, Trump came out and he sort of had to do that apology ...

KEILAR: Hostage video.

GANGEL: ... the hostage video.

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: Hostage video.

BORGER: Yes.

GANGEL: I wasn't going to use that, but yes.

KEILAR: I used it.

GANGEL: And then we're talking about October 27th, 28th, it's two weeks before the election.

SANCHEZ: To that point, Michael, a thread of the testimony that the prosecution tried to get from David Pecker today was distinguishing that this was political help and not personal help. It wasn't as if Trump came to him and said, I don't want Melania to hear about this. I don't want Barron, their young son, to hear about this. This was expressly for the purpose of helping him, politically.

MOORE: Well, I mean, I think that's right. I mean, the question is, does that mean he had the criminal intent or they were able to cross the threshold to say Trump had the criminal intent to do this to interfere with the election or was this simply another campaign move?

SANCHEZ: Yes.

MOORE: I mean, I feel a little bit like kids in their first year biology class or something. You see the pretty little pig or whatever, and then suddenly you cut into it and you see all the - what it's really made up of. And I'm wondering, is this the first time or the closest we've ever gotten to see what the inside of these campaign workings are.

People don't know this. I mean, but this is not the only person to ever keep bad stories from the press, right?

SANCHEZ: And the defense, essentially, in their opening statement put forward, it may be weird looking. You don't like how the sausage is made, but this isn't illegal.

MOORE: Right. And I think that's ultimately the - that's where they have to get. The prosecution has to get there. This is a good start. I mean, this has not been a bad day for them in any stretch. I mean, it's been a good day for the state. But they've got to continue on and connect those dots of not only the conspiracy talk, get the information in, get the statements in that they want to get in. But they've got to talk about intent beyond just I wanted to win and this was an embarrassing story and I didn't want it out there.

[15:10:03]

KEILAR: It is unusual to be in league with the National Enquirer. I just want to be clear about that. I mean, we've all seen how journalism is done around political campaigns and how you have the apparatus around a candidate trying to tamp down bad stories. This is something very different. And that's not even - that's not even - that's just sort of the foundation of this charge.

But I do want to ask one thing, which is a legal question of Elliot. And that is that there was this agreement that they had, but it was a verbal agreement. And I wonder if that is problematic at all. Part of the reason is it was verbal to keep it very hush hush, but is that a problem in convincing the jury?

WILLIAMS: It is not problematic. Under the law, an agreement can be verbal. A contract, like literally a binding contract can be verbal if both parties are in agreement and there's some exchange of a thing of value. So prosecutors can come into court in their final argument and say, look, an agreement is fine. The judge may even instruct the jury that agreement need not be in writing to be binding on the parties. MOORE: It may be evidence a little bit too of guilt, right? I mean, when you don't want to get caught, you don't write it down, you talk about it.

KEILAR: Don't put it in writing.

MOORE: I mean, it could be something they could use as a strong point.

BORGER: Can I ask a question of the lawyers here, which is that Pecker was given immunity and not given immunity because he did nothing wrong. But perhaps what he was doing was an in-kind campaign contribution to Donald Trump. All of this protection and planting these stories about his political enemies, I mean, isn't that potentially illegal?

MOORE: I mean, yes, I think so. And I mean, people usually don't take immunity deals unless they've got something to worry about.

BORGER: That's right. That's right.

MOORE: And I'm telling you that the government doesn't offer them unless there's something for them to worry about.

GANGEL: Exactly.

WILLIAMS: And let's be clear, the defense is going to hammer him on cross over that immunity deal.

BORGER: Exactly.

WILLIAMS: They are going to make it a point about this is a person who has something to hide, ladies and gentlemen. He's got a bias.

SANCHEZ: Right.

WILLIAMS: You can't believe a word he says.

KEILAR: We'll have to see if the jury believes that. Thank you so much to all of you for the discussion. We do appreciate it.

And up next, happening right now, President Biden is making a rare campaign trip to Florida in a bid to use abortion rights to put the typically red state perhaps back into play this November.

And pro-Palestinian demonstrations are forcing college leaders across the country to balance the right to protest with ensuring student safety. There's a new announcement from Columbia University and the growing unrest on more college campuses.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:45]

Right now, we've been monitoring this speech by President Joe Biden in Tampa, Florida. The first of two campaign stops he's holding there today. KEILAR: Yes, the President is putting some renewed focus on the state just days before a new restrictive six-week abortion ban takes effect there. Here's what he had to say moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: (INAUDIBLE) represents millions of women who are enduring unbearable pain and cruelty because of Donald Trump. Sadly, it's pain and cruelty that millions of women in Florida now face. But as I said - as she just said, it's inevitable. It's not inevitable. We can stop it when you vote, we can stop it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: We have CNN's Kayla Tausche joining us now from the White House.

And Kayla, we should point out Florida has gone for the Republican candidate here in their candidates in the last two election cycles. How seriously is the campaign thinking that they could make Florida a factor?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, the numbers would make it seem to be a long shot. But even so, the Biden campaign is hoping that this is the one issue that spurs the turnout of moderate voters, especially women. President Biden just moments ago saying that that six-week abortion ban in the state of Florida would affect 4 million women. And the Biden campaign yesterday saying that it will affect women all across the Southeast who would be traveling to find care elsewhere.

Now, this is the first official stop in the Tampa Bay area by President Biden in the 2024 election. And so it's certainly the campaign believes that this area, despite the fact that it's trending Republican, could potentially be winnable if this abortion issue is the one that galvanizes voters.

Traditionally, we have seen Vice President Kamala Harris, the one that is fronting the message on abortion access and reproductive rights. And even just a few weeks ago, the White House declining to say whether President Biden, who as a lifelong Catholic has held evolving and complex views on the topic would be personally stumping on this issue.

But clearly, the campaign not only sees this as one that will really light a fire under voters in certain swing states and potentially in Florida, but it's also an issue that allows them to draw a direct and substantive contrast with former President Donald Trump as he sits in a courtroom in New York City. Brianna and Boris?

KEILAR: All right. Kayla, thank you so much for that.

Former President Trump, he's also focusing on his election bid this afternoon after he was attending court earlier today in the New York hush money case. Today he's meeting with the former Japanese Prime Minister at Trump Tower.

SANCHEZ: As we're learning, some foreign leaders have been reaching out to the former president. CNN's Alayna Treene joins us now.

Alayna, what is the Trump campaign saying about this meeting?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Well, there's a few things. One is that this is not totally unusual, right? You do have instances where you have foreign leaders meeting with the equivalent of the U.S. opposition leader. That's actually something that a spokesperson for David Cameron, the British Foreign Secretary, said as he was meeting with Donald Trump a couple of weeks ago.

But I think the really interesting thing here, of course, is that Donald Trump is very unique in the sense of that. He's not just another candidate or just the Republican nominee. He's someone who was president four years ago and has his own longstanding relationships with many of these leaders.

[15:20:05]

And it's also something that I think is really presenting a challenging dynamic for Joe Biden, because we know that foreign policy and foreign policy talks often get frozen in an election cycle. But I think it's even more potent right now because we're talking about Donald Trump.

Now, I do just want to read for you quickly what Trump campaign spokesman Brian Hughes said to us in response to this. Sorry, I'll just pull it up right here. He said, "Meetings and calls from world leaders reflect the recognition of what we already know here at home. Joe Biden is weak. And when President Trump is sworn in as the 47th President of the United States, the world will be more secure and America will be more prosperous."

So that's the official campaign response.

But I also just want to point out the timing of all of this. We've really seen Donald Trump ramp up these meetings with foreign leaders in recent weeks, some again on the sidelines of him appearing in court. Last week he met with the Polish President Andrzej Duda. Today he's going to be meeting with the former Japanese Prime Minister Taro Aso.

And so it's all coming at a very interesting time as well. And really, I think what's happening is some of these foreign leaders see the writing on the wall, which is that the election and the polls show that the 2024 election between Trump and Biden are going - or very close, it's going to be a very close election, and they want to make sure that they have strong ties to Donald Trump should he be the one to win come November.

SANCHEZ: Alayna Treene, thanks so much for the update.

Still ahead on CNN NEWS CENTRAL, large pro-Palestinian demonstrations are popping up at schools from coast to coast. Next, we're going to go live to two universities, stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:25]

SANCHEZ: Any moment now we're expecting to hear from leaders at Columbia University as tensions have been escalating on campus amid ongoing pro-Palestinian protests. Demonstrations have erupted at schools across the country in recent days, at some stoking fears of anti-Semitic violence, resulting in the arrests of dozens of students and faculty.

KEILAR: The growing crisis is now prompting school officials to take some pretty extraordinary measures to confront this issue. CNN is live on the ground with Isabel Rosales, who is at Emerson College in Boston.

First, though, we do want to go to Omar Jimenez, who is live from Columbia in New York.

Omar, tell us what's happening right now.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So right now, what you're seeing behind me is the encampment that has been the center of protests, not just here at Columbia, but of course the types of protests that have emanated to campuses across the country. This encampment is now in its seventh day, and they say their core reason for being here is they want the university to divest in corporations they say are profiting from Israeli apartheid and genocide.

Now, in the initial few days of this encampment existing, the New York Police Department, the NYPD, was called in to clear out this encampment, and it's part of why, one, they are still facing some criticism internally for that, but also it's part of why these students or at least these protesters here, say that that was what raised the temperature of a lot of these protests. And they point back to that moment when the university turned to an outside force to clear them out that they lost the trust essentially of these protesters.

That said, we have recently in the last few minutes heard from leadership here at Columbia University. They say they have been in negotiations with students until 2 AM, but also that they believe, as of right now, that this protest goes against school policy. Now, the question is, they made that assessment in the last few minutes, at least publicly, but we don't know exactly what that next enforcement measure will be.

Since the police came in a few days ago at this point, the school has added security in and around. They have gone to hybrid learning, just out of precautionary tale, just for safety. But, also, we spoke to one Jewish student a few minutes ago, too, who said that she didn't feel safe on this campus. Then we also spoke to some folks inside this encampment who told us that they are trying to make it as welcoming of an environment as possible.

And I should also mention before I go is that there is a major contrast between what we have seen on campus versus some conversations that have happened off-campus by so-called instigators, as they have been described by many of the folks here on campus.

KEILAR: All right. Omar, thank you so much for that.

I do want to go now to Isabel Rosales, who is live at Emerson College in Boston.

Because we're seeing this at multiple schools, Isabel. What are you seeing there? What have you heard from students?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, I have been to some of the most prestigious campuses in America in the past two days, and what I'm seeing is a lot of what's happening here at Emerson College. Signs posted like this one, Emerson demand ceasefire and an atmosphere really that is welcoming. At least here, they're asking people to come in to reflect, to have these conversations.

Over at MIT, we saw over 20 tents in front of a chapel making up that encampment in solidarity with the students at Columbia University. They were quiet, a lot of students on laptops, frankly, doing their homework. They had signs up.

But I did get a real sense of the differences of opinions. The MIT Israel Alliance, a student organization, via a statement we got from them, they reached out to school leadership saying that they did not feel safe claiming that several students had left their dorms ahead of Passover.