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CNN Live Event/Special

Pro-Palestinian Protests Erupt at Universities Across the U.S.; Second Day of Testimony Wraps in Trump Hush Money Trial; Senate Poised to Vote on $95 Billion Foreign Aid Package. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They reached out to school leadership saying that they did not feel safe claiming that several students had left their dorms ahead of Passover and are staying with relatives and actually calling the encampment anti-Jewish.

But then there's a different student alliance group, the MIT Jews for Ceasefire. I asked them about that. I asked them whether their encampment is anti-Jewish to an organizer who then told me how can we be anti-Jewish when some of the when some of the organizers planning this encampment that are here staying overnight are Jewish themselves. That organizer also telling me that if the school ultimately decides to tell them to leave, to bring down those tents, they will not do so. We know that MIT telling CNN that they are determining next steps in regards to those tents -- guys.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right, Isabel, thank you so much for that.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: We're joined now by Nick Baum. He's a Jewish student at Columbia University as well as the Jewish Theological Seminary. Nick, thank you so much for sharing part of your afternoon with us.

There have been protests on campus pretty soon after Hamas attacks on October 7th. I'm wondering how these protests and the way that the university has responded to them compare now to then.

NICK BAUM, JEWISH COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY STUDENT: Well, it's simple. I think it's reached a boiling point in terms of antisemitism just over the last few days. Whereas before I never felt exactly comfortable expressing my Jewish identity and therefore expressing myself on campus.

Over the last few days I've just felt downright unsafe, unwelcome, as if I don't belong on campus. Because outside of Columbia's entrance over the last few days we've seen chants of Yehudim, or Jews in Hebrew, go away, go back to Poland. They've called us colonizers. They've said we don't have a culture. They've called us al-Qassam's next targets. And they've chanted for Tel Aviv to be burned to the ground by Hamas.

It's rhetoric like that over the last few days, right outside of the entrance to my own university, that makes me feel no longer safe to attend classes, to go to the library, to go to the cafeteria. And so right now I'm completely off campus.

KEILAR: I think, Nick, that's one of the things we have to understand. Different college campuses are different. There are some that are very integrated into a city.

There's a distinction, our reporter is saying, between some of the off-campus protests and some of the on-campus protests. But when you're at a place like Columbia that really is right in the heart of the city, there's really no avoiding that with so many people living off-campus, right?

BAUM: Exactly. And especially not when the scattered few entrances to Columbia are constantly the targets of exactly these non-Columbia affiliated protests. I would say ultimately bullying Jewish students that both tried to enter and exit Columbia's campus.

I constantly feel surrounded. And even if I live in separate dorms at the Jewish Theological Seminary, it's gotten to the point where I simply feel fear for my safety every time I step out of my dorm and head towards Columbia's campus.

SANCHEZ: Nick, I'm curious to get your thoughts on the distinction between the protesters that are peaceful and those that are making you feel unsafe and that are saying some of the things that you mentioned before that can very easily be heard as threats. I'm not sure if you've encountered physical violence, but I'm wondering what your message is to those who are protesting peacefully and who are seeking change in a way that doesn't put you or students like you at risk.

BAUM: Then in that case, I completely respect their ability to protest freely, to speak freely, as long as they keep in the back of their mind, which is as long as they remember to value Jewish life, both in and outside of campus. I am allowed and they are allowed to respectfully disagree.

And while I will passionately disagree with them, I am a proud Jew and I'm a proud Zionist. I at least have a bit more respect for those who are willing to respect Jewish life. It is basically the bare minimum, but it's really sad to see even the bare minimum be violated so many times here at Columbia.

KEILAR: Nick, what do you think about the decision to shift to hybrid classes? What does that mean for you? What does that mean for other students?

BAUM: It means we finally have a chance to breathe and not necessarily worry about who we're going to encounter or what the next chance are that we're going to face that will make us feel that our lives are threatened. And for us Jewish students, it comes as such a relief as we've faced such an onslaught of one anti-Semitic incident after another. And now, as I'm off campus right here for the first time in a while, I'm able to go outside and finally be relaxed, feel comfortable, feel safe. It's such a relief and I don't think I'll ever take it for granted again. KEILAR: Nick, we thank you for your time today. Nick Baum, thank you for being with us.

BAUM: Thank you.

[15:35:00]

KEILAR: Testimony in former President Trump's historic hush money trial revealing some new details about his deals with a former tabloid chief to catch and kill potentially damaging stories before the 2016 election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I think everybody has made their own assessment of President Trump's character, and so far as I know, you don't pay someone $130,000 not to have sex with you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Wow, that was Republican Senator Mitt Romney.

[15:40:00]

What a soundbite. Reacting there to Donald Trump's hush money trial is today's testimony brought back to light multiple lured allegations against the former president, including alleged affairs with a Playboy model, with a porn star and an unsubstantiated accusation that he fathered a love child.

SANCHEZ: Yes, the former president's longtime friend and former National Enquirer publisher David Pecker returned to the stand and detailed how he killed the stories as part of a highly confidential agreement with Trump made all the way back in 2015 when he announced his first presidential run. Our panel of experts is back with us, and you do have to wonder how all of this sits with the jury, because it's very easy. We were talking a moment ago about how much this is a paper trail case where we have to show that business records were falsified.

But this is a high profile case, a high profile defendant, and the details are distracting.

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: They are, but jurors are like anybody else. I mean, it's like watching a wreck. I mean, they just they just crane their necks to see it, right?

I mean, they may talk about it being distracted. There's nobody on the jury that has any preconceived notions that Trump has some grand character. I mean, we saw that during jury selection.

I mean, there would be less jurors on the panel now had some of those people been struck. So everybody kind of brings to it their own life experience, and the judge is going to tell him you bring to it your life experience and your common sense, and you get to apply that here. So as they piece through the sordid details, what's going to be important for the state is to make sure that their case is not about sex, but it's about crime.

It's not going to be about, you know, payments and porn stars and Pecker and everything. It's got to be really just about, you know, did he do something with a criminal intent to interfere with and influence the election unlawfully?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And if you're the defense, you can't say the words porn star and payment enough because what the defense wants to do is make this into embarrassing conduct that this defendant was simply trying to shield from his family, just like any of us would. We're all human and mortal, and this was him trying to shield embarrassment, not tamper with an election. I think that's what is possible.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think that's what I don't want to say that he did anything illegal like that. He didn't pay attention to this, this little stuff, even though David Pecker said that he was a detail man and did look at the piles of papers and sign the checks. But you know, their point is going to be like this was sort of below his pay grade.

He didn't really wasn't really actively involved in anything, and I think Pecker's testimony contradicts that.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Pecker is a friend. This is not Michael Cohen sitting on there. And also, Donald Trump has always taken great pride in the fact that it's his company.

He makes all the decisions, even though his three Children were involved in the company. It's well known. If an important decision had to be made, they came to him. He signs all the checks he micromanages. I think those kinds of details stick with the jury.

KEILAR: Historically, he's been his own publicist, even under someone else. He's pretended to be --

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: John Dillion, right?

KEILAR: Correct. He's pretended to be someone else to be his publicist. So, yes, and I also --

GANGEL: Also he's a lawyer half the time.

KEILAR: Well, it does seem that way. He's definitely his own spokesperson here. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about this gag order. There was a hearing this morning.

This is not resolved at this point in time. But this whole thing going on, it doesn't seem like Trump is going to back off of any criticism of the case of the judge. What do you make of this?

MOORE: I think this is a distraction. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I feel like that, you know, the jury selection was relatively smooth. It was quick. There wasn't -- there weren't many spectacles to be had this, and I feel like the prosecutors are really taking the bait every time Trump opens his mouth or looks to the left, looks the right.

Suddenly we're getting some kind of allegation. He's violating a gag order. There's no juror that said they've been intimidated at this point by a gag or there's no witness. We've got --

GANGEL: Wait, wait. We had potential jurors. We had one leave and we had another one come in, --

MOORE: But not in this panel, not in this panel that said before.

GANGEL: Yes, one of the jurors came --

MOORE: And left.

GANGEL: -- after having -- but in addition to that, there was a second juror who came and said wasn't sure they wanted to stay, went to the judge's chambers. We don't know what happened --

MOORE: based on media coverage.

GANGEL: Right, right. They were nervous.

MOORE: But right. But that's not necessarily because Trump is saying something. I mean, I'm not saying that he hadn't technically violated the order. Well, he may have technically violated, but you know, saying that saying that this is a Democratic county or Democratic venue and 95 percent or the jury is Democrat. So what? So what?

GANGEL: So calling Michael Kona serial perjurer.

MOORE: I think the prosecutor has a problem because they can't control their witness too, who's doing the same thing. And so we're really in this tit for tat. Good, good for the goose, good for the gander.

And that's why I think it's a distraction. I mean, if I were, they're not asking me for advice, but I mean, if I were talking to the prosecutors, I'd say, keep your head down, try the case, take the megaphone away from him. That's all you're doing every time.

SANCHEZ: Is that a headache, though, for the judge?

[15:45:03]

WILLIAMS: It is. I think the best thing the judge can do, even more than sanctioning the president, is impose some order on the proceedings. This is about the judge's own courtroom and his own proceedings, not as much about compelling Donald Trump to behave better in the future. And what you don't want as a judge is a defendant who's sort of walking over the rules of the court.

Now, look, at the end of the day, $1,000 fines are not going to have an impact. Now, in the civil case, it was only after the fines were elevated and there was a risk of prison that the president sort of started behaving a little bit better.

So it remains to be seen if, you know, the judge were to start with lower sanctions and elevate them.

MOORE: He's going to take him to task. I mean, he's going to take him out behind a woodshed and get on to him, I think, at the end of the day. But he's not going to lock him up.

WILLIAMS: No, oh no, not clear.

BORGER: But this hands Donald Trump a cudgel to say, I'm being gagged. I can't talk about what I really want to talk about. You heard him say that, you know, because I'm being gagged by the court.

Michael Cohen can say whatever he wants to say about me, but I can't. So he's going to turn it and flip it and use it to his advantage.

KEILAR: Michael said the jurors bring their own personal experiences to this process. I suspect they don't have the repertoire of personal experiences that are being discussed in this case. I'm just going to go out on a limb and say most of them, I'm pretty sure, do not have that.

So, Jamie, I wonder how the Trump campaign and his allies are looking at this and viewing how vulnerable this makes him in this election.

GANGEL: Well, I think we have seen for a long time, what do we know? Donald Trump's base is going to stay with him. So let's assume that that continues to happen.

On the other hand, we also know that Donald Trump has done everything he can over and over and over to delay all of these cases, including this one. They would prefer that he wasn't in the courtroom. They're going to make the most out of it.

Donald Trump's going to be Donald Trump. He's going to come out every day and he's going to say witch-hunt and gag order and all the rest. But I don't know, and again, this is not about his base. Independent voters, swing voters, suburban women, people he needs. I'm not sure that six weeks of this is very good for the Trump campaign.

SANCHEZ: If history tracks at least his fundraising, we'll benefit from it. We shall see what happens.

BORGER: Suburban women, as Jamie was saying, and independent voters, particularly women. I mean, the details are tawdry. There's no doubt about it.

Nobody is saying, I can't possibly imagine Donald Trump doing anything like that. Who is defending him by saying that?

SANCHEZ: Laura, Jamie, Elliot, Michael, appreciate the conversation. Thanks so much. I look forward to having it a few more times.

A months-long standoff in Congress could be close to ending as the Senate prepares to take up foreign aid bills worth billions of dollars for Ukraine and Israel. Money that the White House says both countries desperately need. We'll discuss in just moments.

[15:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Right now, a $95 billion foreign aid package could be just hours away from clearing its final hurdle. Senators could vote on that bill later today.

KEILAR: We have CNN's Manu Raju following the latest on the Hill. Manu, tell us where things stand.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the Senate actually just cast a key procedural vote to move this massive aid package, $95 billion, that includes $61 billion in aid to Ukraine, something that has been battled and debated on for about six months on Capitol Hill, finally moving to final passage in the Senate after breaking a Republican-led filibuster on the Senate floor. That vote on the floor 89 to 19. There were 30 Republicans who voted in favor of advancing this measure.

That was a fact that was touted by Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell, who has been a staunch advocate for aid for Ukraine, who believes that this shows that the GOP is essentially turning, as he says, turning the corner away from isolationism, as this party has battled over the U.S. war presence in the world, as well as the U.S. support for the war in Ukraine.

Now, what McConnell also said is that he blamed, pointedly, the former Fox News host Tucker Carlson for stoking that anti-Ukraine sentiment in the GOP.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: I think gamification of Ukraine began with Tucker Carlson. And in my opinion ended up where he should have been all along. Which was interviewing Vladimir Putin.

And so, he had an enormous audience which convinced a lot of rank and file Republicans that maybe this is a mistake. I think the former president had sort of mixed views on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: McConnell, of course, pushed through a Senate package about two months ago that stalled in the House. Ultimately, Speaker Mike Johnson decided to move ahead on some slight modifications to that Senate bill, which passed the Senate -- passed the House on Saturday, and that is one big reason why folks on the right are coming after him at this moment. But still, the Senate expected to pass the House's bill as soon as later tonight, despite this GOP division and angst in the ranks.

KEILAR: All right, we'll be looking for that. Manu Raju, live on The Hill, thank you. Stay with CNN NEWS CENTRAL and we'll be right back.

[15:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: An update now for you on a story that we've been keeping a close eye on. A Russian court has rejected the latest appeal by "Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich.

KEILAR: He was appealing his pretrial detention on espionage charges, but today's ruling means Gershkovich will remain in custody until at least June 30th. The White House calling this decision a sham process.

SANCHEZ: Now, before the hearing began, he made this gesture, a heart with his hands inside a defendant's cage in court.

KEILAR: The 32-year-old was arrested more than a year ago and charged with espionage. Allegations denied by Gershkovich, by the U.S. government, by the "Wall Street Journal."

[16:00:00]

SANCHEZ: Yes, he's the first journalist we should know to be arrested on these kinds of charges since the Cold War, and the Russian government has yet to actually provide any evidence to support its claim against him.

KEILAR: Yes, that's right. It's one of those cases we've got to keep watching. I can't believe it's gone on this long, but it's so important.

SANCHEZ: Absolutely.

KEILAR: "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.