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CNN Live Event/Special

Soon: Fourth Day Of Testimony In Trump Hush Money Trial Resumes; Finance Exec Gary Farro Takes Witness Stand At Trump Trial. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 26, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:31:20]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to CNN special coverage of former President Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial.

Rhona Graff, Trump's former longtime assistant took the stand after days of testimony from the ex-tabloid publisher David Pecker. But unlike Pecker, she was on the stand for just a very short time. And now, we are waiting to see who the next witness is going to be.

My panel is joining us now to discuss the latest developments from inside the courtroom.

And Laura did both sides seem to accomplish what they were trying to accomplish? At least so far today?

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: It appears so, if you look at the goals of any witness. Now, every one witness is not going to give you everything you need. Every person is not going to prove your entire case and every witness not going to give you that either that Perry Mason moment or that blockbuster, who ordered the code red that people might think happens in courtrooms, but doesn't actually happen in courtrooms.

The purpose of this witness, it seemed was to introduce documents. To demonstrate that he did not use e-mail. Maybe that was used by the prosecution to suggest that there'll be other witnesses you have to rely on. For the information you seek.

Also, that Stormy Daniels had been in Trump Tower before he ran for the presidency and announced his election. And that there was also contact information for both Karen McDougal and Stormy.

Now, they don't have to actually prove as the prosecutors and there was ever any sexual liaisons or an affair, but what they do have to prove is a way to buttress the credibility of their other witnesses.

Now, on the other side for the defense, their goal seemed to be, look, recognize this is a friendly witness to you. Don't have to unduly cross examine this person, demonstrate and humanize Donald Trump. She did just that, talking about him as being a respectful boss, as somebody who affected her intelligence, who is often fair and decent, and her role how close she was, she was so close this person for 34 years.

When it was time for his inauguration, she was on the platform. That's how close she was to him, and think they have all accomplished that. But on the other side of this, if you're the prosecution in this case, and you think you're going to call a witness at the end of the day and say, all right, Your Honor, I think, hate to start the next witness here. And judge is like, who is your next witness?

Prosecutors, you said, you called ready? Let's go. Who is next?

BLITZER: Yes. Let's find out who is going to be third, the third witness? What do you make of the pacing so far this trial?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I think the judge is moving the trial along. So, case in point, let's look back to last week and jury selection, which truly could have taken weeks. If the judge had gone through every one of these prospective jurors who raised their hands and said they couldn't be fair to Donald Trump.

And he questioned each one of them individually, which he was allowed to do to try to rehabilitate them and get them to give an honest answer that they could be fair on a jury. That could have added weeks to the trial.

I think he's moving it along, and a lot of it really is on the judge. Now, setting aside that the judge has not ruled on this gag order, which is a sort of looming question over the trial. It is -- you know, it -- nothing is abnormal here.

The idea of David Pecker testifying for 10 hours, but Rhona Graff testifying for what was it? 20 or 30 minutes is also not alarming based on what you wish to get at least two witnesses.

One was a critical fact witness talking about firsthand interactions with the defendant, another one came in to get a couple of documents into evidence and get out of there. And that's it.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: What do they do with those documents? In other words, they got documents, probably the calendar from Rhona Graff. So, they can raise them at any -- at any point?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BORGER: I mean, and she doesn't have to be on the witness stand up.

WILLIAMS: She does not. So, here's what can.

BORGER: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Someone can testify as to what's in them. Assuming it's not hearsay, because even a statement written in a calendar can be hearsay, depending on what the exceptions are.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Right. WILLIAMS: So, number one, someone can testify to it. Number two, they can argue to it. Because now it's evidence of trial, even if the jury hasn't said it. So, they can say in their closing argument, ladies and gentlemen, you have now as exhibit 14, a calendar that has an entry that -- I'm making this up, everybody. But that has Stormy Daniels entering Trump Tower on X date.

[15:35:06]

Take a look at it. See for yourself. You know that this happened on that day.

BORGER: You remember -- excuse me.

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BLITZER: Good to say, Donald Trump has returned to the courtroom. He is back inside. He's no longer carrying papers or whatever that means. But Judge Merchan is now back on the bench as well. So, this is about to resume.

What stood out to you the most, Gloria, about Rhona Graff's testimony?

BORGER: Well, her loyalty. She is adoring of Donald Trump. I mean, she is worked for him for 34 years. She said he treated her very well. She said that she didn't want to be there on the witness stand. The only reason she was there, obviously is because she got a subpoena.

And, you know, it's very clear to me that this is the kind of loyalty that Donald Trump loves, he apparently smiled when she was -- when she was on the witness stand. She's valuable because -- potentially, because of those documents. She -- did see Stormy Daniels out there in the in the waiting room?

So, I think we just have to see what the calendar shows. But she was somebody that the defense can use and say, you know, humanize Donald Trump to a -- to a great degree about how he treated if someone who worked for him.

WILLIAMS: One, one small, small bit of caution I would give to the world about any piece of evidence. Sometimes something like a calendar can literally be to have to demonstrate that two people interacted on a day, can be to demonstrate that it was a Wednesday as opposed to a Tuesday, and not this is the moment at which we know that the defendant committed the crime.

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BORGER: Right.

WILLIAMS: Some things are just totally mundane.

BLITZER: Everyone, thank you very, very much. Everybody, stand by.

Our special coverage of this historic criminal trial will continue straight ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:41:20]

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN special live coverage of Donald Trump's historic first criminal trial. Moments ago, a new witness was called to the stand. Gary Farro. Paula Reid is with us.

Paula, Gary Farro, not exactly a household name.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Not even named those known very well to those of us who are covering this.

So, prosecutors clearly using the last hour, maybe, on a Friday before a three-day break, just to bring in some witnesses who can likely help them introduce some exhibits. Right? Verify some documents, because at the core of this, this is a paperwork case, right? Allegation, 34 counts of falsifying business records. So, there is a few things.

We're still waiting. We're getting these great updates from our colleagues in the courtroom. There is a few different things he could be testifying about. He could be testifying about payments made to Stormy Daniels.

We also know that Michael Cohen, he had to borrow against his home to pay Stormy Daniels. So, that could also be why he has been called to the stand. But we expect this to be a pretty quick appearance by this witness, Mr. Farro, to likely just help them bring in some documents that they are going to need over the next few weeks.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Again, a Friday afternoon, not much time to go before court is set to wrap for the day. It's going to be a long weekend for these jurors. You don't want to use an impactful witness right now.

Paula Reid, thanks so much for the update.

Let's discuss the trial more now with Carolyn Koch. She is a trial and jury consultant.

Carolyn, thank you so much for being with us. So, the first two witnesses have wrapped, both of them fairly close to Donald Trump: David Pecker, a longtime friend, assisted him with this catch and kill stories of the National Enquirer.

Then, his longtime assistant, Rhona Graff, one of second. And now third, we're hearing from this bank employee. What do you think of the sequence of witnesses that the prosecution has called?

CAROLYN KOCH, TRIAL AND JURY CONSULTANT: Well, you know, I never really know what other people's strategy is. And it could just be what Paula just said, you have to lay the groundwork to get these documents in, and these are the people you have to do it.

And I'm just speculating, of course, but I'm thinking maybe the prosecution is concerned that these are witnesses who have longtime positive relationships with Donald Trump. So, if you're trying to demonize Donald Trump, and make him seem like he is guilty, you might not want to close with witnesses, who have a long-term positive relationship.

And so, you know, even if you just look at Rhona Graff, who worked for him for 34 years, that's almost an unheard-of amount of loyalty that one person can give to another. If you think about most marriages, that's a really long time.

And so, they might be worried that her positive feelings for Trump are going to eke out. And they might want jurors to forget about that by the time it's the juries turn to deliberate.

SANCHEZ: That is fascinating perspective. I am curious about one part of her testimony. She was asked point blank, you don't want to be here on the witness stand, do you? And she said no. Prosecutors essentially had to compel her testimony.

How do you think a jury perceives that?

KOCH: Well, I mean, most people don't -- probably, the jurors don't want to be there either, possibly. They probably got over that. And most witnesses are subpoenaed. I think jurors just understand -- jurors are the common-sense experts. So, they probably understand how awkward it would be if you have a 34-year relationship, and this person is your boss, and now you're subpoenaed, and you're supposed to be, you know, "helping" in his prosecution. That's just an awkward position to be in.

[15:45:00]

But the jurors are going to --

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SANCHEZ: Go, go.

KOCH: You know, jurors are so good at reading between the lines and focusing on, is this person telling the truth? And what part of their testimony do I need to rely on to come to a decision? So, ultimately, I don't think it will really sway people one way or another.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it's --

SANCHEZ: Carolyn Koch, thank you so much for the perspective. Appreciate you being with us.

KOCH: You're welcome.

SANCHEZ: Of course.

Our special coverage of Donald Trump's HUSH MONEY TRIAL continues in just a moment.

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[15:50:01] BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN special live coverage of Donald Trump's HUSH MONEY TRIAL.

We're now hearing -- we're now nearing, I should say, the end of the first week of testimony in this truly historic case. Today, we heard more testimony from former tabloid owner David Pecker and longtime Trump organization executive assistant Rhona Graff. Now, on the stand is bank executive, Gary Farro.

I'm joined now by presidential historian, Douglas Brinkley.

Doug, thanks very much for joining us, as we approach the end of this first week of testimony in Trump's hush money case. What's your perspective on this historic trial?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, first off, I think it's been a good week, the trial seems to be moving smoothly. There hasn't been a lot of outside agitation, you know, unreasonably blocking streets with protests or anything. Trump seems to be taking the strategy of being bored, closing his eyes, that this is just, you know, a witch hunt against him -- election interference. He, as predicted will use the courthouse steps any chance he get as a -- you know, campaign platform.

But I don't think it's going well for Trump, I think the evidence seems to be very strong, what does one juror decide can make a difference. But this isn't helpful for Trump's reelection campaign, Wolf.

You know, even if it affects -- if a guilty plea comes in, he may -- he's not going to go to jail, he might have to, you know, it will be appeal until after the election. But it's a big dent, I think.

And it just shows you, I think the whole trial, it's just -- it's sort of a can of worms. It's just -- it reminds you of what kind of business person Trump was and why he may not be fit for command to be back in the White House.

BLITZER: And as you point out, Trump has been blasting the charges against him outside the courtroom. He is also possibly violated the judge's gag order several times that was aimed at preventing him from attacking potential witnesses and others. What do you make of Trump's rhetoric and the way he's carried himself in this case?

BRINKLEY: I think it's utterly despicable. There is no former president in American history would have -- would behave in this sort of ridiculous and ugly fashion. He is putting people at risk all the time, and he doesn't care. It's really reckless behavior.

But in the end, this jury is going to make a decision, and we're going to have to live with the result. I think it's unfortunate that things keep getting -- the can keeps getting kicked down the road until after an election. But hence, whether we have appeals and if he is found guilty, he will do that.

He may get a bounce out of Milwaukee on July 15th. Trump, even if he is convicted, and he'll be played the martyr, but in the end, anybody who is sitting in the middles, you know, they are saying, that this guy just can't be back yet.

You may not like Biden, you may not like third party candidates or the like -- but, you know -- you know, Trump just seems to be, at this point, just so toxic that I don't know who wants to be in the neighborhood with him.

BLITZER: As you know, Trump earlier suggested he would testify in his own defense. Now, he says he'll testify if necessary. But do you believe he will? And just how unprecedented would that be for a former president of the United States?

BRINKLEY: Oh, well, you know, Theodore Roosevelt once had a couple of these miners deals when he went in -- when he was in a court on a libel case that he was bringing in. He'd read a book or find things, but we've never had anything like this. This is a -- as we know, very well, it's just one of Trumps legal woes.

We are dealing with a somebody who behaves like a, a mafia kingpin or a dictator, somebody with an authoritarian bent. But it is amazing how well he learned the sleazy side of American tabloid industry. His whole life, he became big in the 80s. Trump, you know, became a household name and it's always been one scam after another.

But this time, the interference with an election, hush money payments, it's not about the money of $130,000. And it's not the fact that they were adult film stars. It's just the amount of sleaze that comes out of the man from Mar-a-Lago.

It's hard to compare it to any other president in American history. You'd have to really start getting into a bag of scoundrels or cons, failed, you know, bizarre rip-off artists to understand this milieu that he is chosen to live in as his life. But he'll say I've been successful. I've been president and you're not.

BLITZER: Douglas Brinkley. Doug is a professor of history at Rice University. Presidential historian.

[15:54:47]

Thanks, Douglas very, very much, and we'll be right back.

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SANCHEZ: We are back outside the courthouse in Manhattan for Donald Trump's HUSH MONEY TRIAL. And Paula Reid is with us.

Paula, I've done extensive research on this case in preparation for covering it. And the guy that's on the stand right now, never heard of him.

REID: Yes, I've covered this case for about seven years now. And I also have never heard of this young man, Gary Farro.

He is on the stand. He clearly, according to his testimony, he has a banking relationship with Michael Cohen. He was assigned to Cohen's account because quote, Cohen was known to be challenging. Mr. Farro, apparently was good with difficult clients, but he insisted Cohen is not difficult.

But we haven't gotten to really why he is on the stand. We don't know if this is going to be about payments to Stormy Daniels or Cohen's home equity line. It's unclear, but stay tuned because we continue to get these live updates from inside the court.

SANCHEZ: A bit of a mystery late on a Friday afternoon, Paula Reid, thank you so much.

[16:00:00]

I'm Boris Sanchez in New York.

BLITZER: And I'm Wolf Blitzer here in Washington.

Much more of our special coverage of the trial is coming up. And I'll be back in two hours in the "SITUATION ROOM", 6:00 p.m. Eastern. But, "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.