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Judge Finds Trump In Contempt For Violating Gag Order; Now: Fifth Day Of Testimony In Trump Hush Money Trial; Prosecutors Call Employee For Court Reporting Company To Testify In Trump Hush Money Trial. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

BILL BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP PAYROLL CORP. ATTORNEY: And I think if -- because you must remember there's vitriol between these two guys now. But at that point in time, Cohen made the statement, I'd take a bullet for you, Mr. Trump. I mean, this guy was a sycophant, a suck-up, and he'd do anything he could to please Donald Trump at that time.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: For those of you --

BRENNAN: I think they play that.

TAPPER: For those of you out there googling William Cicci, it's a C-I- C-C-I. The judge is back on the bench in Donald Trump's hush money cover-up trial. We just watched Donald Trump walk back into the courtroom.

We're waiting for the prosecution to call its next witness. The answer to a courtroom mystery ahead with much more of CNN SPECIAL LIVE COVERAGE. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:35:24]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Prosecutors just revealing the answer to our guessing game of who is the next witness inside the court. Dr. Robert Browning, the good name that you're not familiar with, or really many of us, the fourth witness now at Donald Trump's hush money cover-up trial. This is who he is. He is the executive director of the C-Span archives.

And right now, the prosecutor is handling the questions to him. We just learned that Browning is testifying under subpoena. He told the jury they traveled from Indiana to give this testimony and that he is a little nervous as he is on the witness stand.

And, Karen, I think for people at home were wondering, OK, we've heard from the National Enquirer, we've heard from Trump's assistant, we've heard from Michael Cohen's banker. Why is the executive director of the C-Span archives now taking the witness stand? It all goes back to what you were talking about earlier, which is Trump's legal team won't stipulate anything. So, they have to bring up these witnesses to get evidence into the record.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, what the -- Gary Farrow who just testified, I could see why Trump's lawyers didn't stipulate to him. They had actual stuff they wanted to get out through him like was Michael Cohen in a rush, was he always hurried, was he -- did you deal with Trump directly? But I suspect, although I don't know because we haven't heard what he has to say, that Dr. Browning will not have much to say other than he's going to be putting into the record tapes, right or video of certain footage that they want in because it says he's from C-Span archives.

He's not going to -- I don't think have any dealing directly with anybody. This is just a matter of getting records in that are -- or videos in from a particular date or time. This is something easily that they could have stipulated to. I would expect that they're probably not going to cross-examine him at all if --

COLLINS: An, Paula, just he's explaining to the jury what a network pool is. Obviously, as former White House correspondents, we are well aware. It's essentially when the President of the United States is somewhere instead of bringing in every single reporter who's assigned to cover him, they choose one representative for each media. One person from broadcast, one person from radio, one person from print, that goes in and handles that. C-Span obviously, has a nonstop stream -- nonstop stream of all of this footage.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

COLLINS: And so, he's having to tell the jury about these mundane things, just to get this evidence into the record.

REID: This poor guy. I mean, he says he flew in from Indiana. He says he's a little nervous. And you can perfectly understand that, right, because the archives at C-Span, and now he's testifying in the biggest story in the world.

He just said while the event is taking place and talking about the pool, there's a producer who is watching the video from beginning to end to make sure there's no interruptions in the transmission. And as you just laid out, of course, the jury won't know how a pool works. But he's explaining how resources are pooled so that everyone has access to what is going on.

And as we can also attest that in the Trump administration, these polls were a huge deal because he was constantly making news. He would say something that would change the course of the day. And here, he likely said some things -- we know he said some things that they're likely going to introduce that were captured by the pool and are now going to be key pieces of evidence.

But I really feel for this guy. It's a reminder, this is an everyday person just trying to do his job, much like the folks at the National Archives who are brought into another criminal investigation, now at the center of the biggest story in the world.

COLLINS: Yes. We are grateful for Dr. Browning. Everyone loves the C- Span, especially news nerds. But, Karen, can I just ask you because -- I mean, essentially, this is delaying the trial. This is dragging the trial out even further, I guess I should say, which is notable given Trump's team won't stipulate to just have say, yes, this video is Donald Trump, or this is that. And they've also been complaining about how long this trial was taking and keeping him off the campaign trail yet they're doing something that only makes the trial last longer, no?

AGNIFILO: Yes, that's exactly right. And I think at a certain point, it'll become clear that that's what's happening. I mean, although this is very interesting, right? He's explaining that C-Span digital video library has 278,000 digital hours to date.

You know, these are tidbits of information that are nice to know and interesting. And jurors probably don't know this information. We don't know this information off the top of our hand -- you know, head. But as you said, Kaitlan, it is definitely delaying things. Is this really critical in terms of determining whether he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, the jury is getting a special kind of treat this morning as they are hearing and explaining even what C-Span is to the jury, really getting into the mundane details. Adam Kaufmann is back with us. He is the former Executive Assistant District Attorney in the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, so he knows this well.

I mean, is this something that would be typical, I guess having to get the executive director of the C-Span archives on the witness stand in the first criminal trial of a former president? And I should note, he is now saying that he received a subpoena, Adam, from your former office to turn over recordings of Donald Trump that are in C-Span's archives.

[11:40:18]

ADAM KAUFMANN, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT D.A., MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Right. So, you know, this is what happens in trials. The most exciting, interesting trial in the world is going to have witnesses who are just unbelievably boring. Because you have to put into evidence, you have to lay what's called a foundation, there are certain legal questions that have to be asked before documents, photo -- video can be brought in and shown to the jury. It is often stipulated.

But some defense teams decide they're not going to stipulate to anything, which is apparently what's happened here. But yes, you know, in any trial, there's going to be these downtimes of witnesses who just our -- gesture there for technical reasons. And it's just you have to just kind of get through them, and the jury sits and listens.

And it's sort of a non-issue. He won't be referred to again, in the trial, probably, but there's some piece of evidence or some video that the prosecution wants to show. And that's what's going on right now.

COLLINS: Well, and I'm sure Mr. Browning himself is fascinating and the archives of C-Span are also fascinating detailing U.S. history. But I should note, the prosecution is now entering clips into evidence.

These are clips that are being described by title. They are not actually being played. I mean, Adam, how much longer would this make the case go if they won't stipulate to anything?

KAUFMANN: It's hard to say without knowing what the body of evidence, the total amount of evidence they need to bring in. I mean, what we're seeing is this witness might just be, you know, 20 or 30 minutes. If that -- and then the question is, how many other witnesses are they going to have to call?

This witness can move in all of the evidence that they've subpoenaed from C-Span. If they have other records that they're trying to move in? I don't know. They could have different T.V. stations that have archived footage of different things. They could have documents.

We're certainly going to see this with bank records, that they're going to have to lay the foundation. And so, it's hard to know how long this will take in total because you just don't know how many different foundation witnesses they're going to have to call. So, it's sort of up in the air. And I think for those who are watching this so intently, these are times when, you know, maybe take a break and grab something from the fridge, and then come back to see when the live action starts again.

COLLINS: All right, Adam Kaufmann, thank you for that. And as we are watching the next witness in Donald Trump's criminal hush money case testify, right now, they are basically introducing videos and evidence, one from January 11, 2017, of a news conference being held by then-President-elect Trump before he was inaugurated as the President of the United States, but well after he had won the election.

And Paula and Karen, I mean, it's we're looking at what they're trying to do here, you know --

AGNIFILO: Yes.

COLLINS: What the -- clearly, you know, with the prosecution, they introduced first a really interesting witness David Pecker from the National Enquirer to kind of go into this effort. In the middle of this, though, is we're going to likely see a lot of witnesses who are like this.

REID: Yes. Eventually, once we get through all of this evidence introduction, they need this evidence so that when those witnesses like Hope Hicks or Stormy Daniels or eventually Michael Cohen take the stand, they can refer to these. But as we said repeatedly, it is a little surprising that they haven't stipulated some of this. But some of these video clips that are going to be introduced.

I mean, these were big moments where you saw Trump really changing his story repeatedly about the allegations about Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. That's why they will be valuable not right this second, but later on when prosecutors and defense attorneys question these other bigger witnesses. COLLINS: And a lot of this, I assume -- I mean, the public record is immense, Karen, with Trump's denials. Because that first year in office, I remember being in the briefing room and the White House press secretaries were getting questions about the women and their allegations against Trump, including Stormy Daniels, as this reporting was all getting -- becoming public.

Trump was asked about this on the South Lawn of the White House. He was asked about it at press conferences. There were questions about it in the briefing room. There are many moments where Trump is publicly weighing in on what he's been denying.

AGNIFILO: Yes. so, it's going to be interesting that the prosecution is going to probably use it in their case and argue if he changes the story, right? It's not the truth, he -- because he's changing his story over and over again. And whenever you have public statements like this by a defendant, they can be used against them.

COLLINS: Well -- and this is the one being -- the clip being played right now in court. It's Trump in 2016, October saying it's a phony deal. I have no idea who these women are. That timeline is notable because October 2016 is when Michael Cohen is scrambling to get First Republic Bank on the phone to open up this LLC to get one of those women $130,000.

[11:45:09]

AGNIFILO: Yes. So, these are the kinds of details that the prosecution will wrap up in summation. They'll take all these dates that are being put into the record, whether it was Rhona Graff putting certain calendar entries into the record, or here they're talking about something that happened in October 2016. You -- those -- all of that will come into to focus in summation when the prosecution ties it all together and tells everyone what the significance is like you just did.

COLLINS: Yes. And as we know that the prosecution now injuring video clips of Donald Trump, quotes from him in October 2016, denying that he knew the women who said they had sexual encounters with him. We have much more of everything that is happening inside the courtroom live just ahead.

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[11:50:32]

TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN SPECIAL LIVE COVERAGE. The prosecution just called its fifth witness to the stand. This witness is named Phillip Thompson. And, Kaitlan, this is a court reporter.

COLLINS: Yes, Jake, this is Phillip Thompson. He is here to get some court reporting -- he is a court report -- works for a court reporting firm. And he is here to essentially get transcripts from a deposition into the record of evidence here.

That is what we are watching play out right now. These are not household names that people are knowing. It's not even names that those of us who follow this incredibly closely, no.

But the reason this is happening is because Donald Trump's team essentially won't stipulate to anything, which means that they won't say yes, our client did say in October 2016, a denial of any sexual encounters with these women or when it comes to the depositions that he has given where he's been asked about this, as we know in moments with E. Jean Carroll and others. And so, they're having to bring in, you know, kind of these mundane witnesses. Not representative, the individuals themselves, but to come in and to get these facts into the record so they can use it as they paint this larger picture of this effort to pay Stormy Daniels this money and as they say, and as they alleged falsifying business records.

And I should note that this person, Phillip Thompson says that he is testifying on behalf of a subpoena. The last witness who was just up, Jake, was only up for a mere matter of minutes. He was not cross- examined by Trump's team. It's just an effort by the D.A.'s office here to get this evidence into the record, Jake.

TAPPER: All right. Kaitlan Collins, thanks so much. And, Bill and Ellie, we were talking about the very fact that the prosecution feels compelled to introduce a gentleman from C-Span's archives just to testify that -- for at least three video clips are real. And now, this gentleman Phillip Thompson, a court reporter with Esquire Deposition Solutions, this is not normal. The reason that they are having to have these individuals testify this deposition is real, this video clip is real, is because there is no willingness between the prosecution and the defense to work together, is that right?

BRENNAN: It's what it sounds like. I mean, Elie will tell you, you know, if Elie was prosecuting a case and I was defending it, all the mundane business records in the lake, we would stipulate to that. We would, you know, leave the jury with the issues in dispute. But we're not in the courtroom. I don't know what's going on. But it sounds like there's a line in the sand. We will stipulate that, you know, today is Tuesday. We will stipulate that you're Jake Tapper, you know, prove it. And it sounds like that's what's going on to make for a little bit of a longer trial.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BRENNAN: A little more of a boring trial.

HONIG: Well, so nine times out of 10 you'll have those stipulations. You do it before trial, one piece of paper. I'd sign it. The defense lawyer would sign it, says, hey, these video clips of C-Span, they are video clips from C-Span. These deposition transcripts, their deposition transcript.

But you do see sometimes a defendant who just as in no way, I'm not cooperating mode. You know, to heck with you. And it seems like Trump's there. And I guess the question is, to whose benefit or detriment will this ultimately go? Because on the one hand, it will extend the trial --

KASIE HUNT, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: I was just going to say, couldn't it mean that he could get back out on the campaign trail faster?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well --

HONIG: Right. So, it will extend the trial. The jury, though, tends to blame prosecutors. If a trial drags -- because you're the one who's controlling the evidence, and the jury wouldn't necessarily know like, hey, ordinarily, they'd be stipulating to this. So, it's a mixed bag.

TAPPER: I mean, let's just --

COATES: Not to mention -- as I say, not to mention, sitting here right now, these jurors have been gone since really Friday, right? And it's Tuesday. And they're here. their eyes are probably glazing over.

They're probably wondering, again, what's this case about exactly? What are we proving here, that C-Span actually exists? That there was a transcript?

I want to refocus everyone, just for a second here on really what we have to focus on if you're the jury. We're the court of public opinion. Remember what the prosecution has to prove. The prosecution has said -- here was a quote from their opening statements.

"This case is about a criminal conspiracy and a cover-up. An illegal conspiracy to undermine the integrity of a presidential election." And then the steps that Donald Trump took to conceal that illegal election fraud.

Meanwhile, you get the defense saying no, no, no. This is about him fighting back like he always does. He's entitled to do to protect his family, reputation, and his brand and that is not a crime.

This is important from the delay tactic that we use to think about before a trial actually begins. It really plays out during the courtroom as well. I want -- if I'm a defense attorney, I want you thinking every single step of this.

Really, this is why we're prosecuting Trump? Really, this is why we're here? Really, we have a C-Span person coming in?

Meanwhile, you're more and more detached from what the prosecution wants you to focus on, which essentially is the conspiracy we're talking about.

[11:55:10]

TAPPER: So, we just got in --

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: We just -- we just got in a new courtroom sketch. I'm not sure if it's available yet. It's Jane Rosenberg as the courtroom artist. We'll bring that to you when we get it again.

Oh, here it is. There is Donald Trump talking to his second son, Eric Trump. There's another one, I believe from -- also from Jane Rosenberg of Mr. Trump as Gary Farrow -- no, that's not it. Gary Farrow, Michael Cohen's banker testifying.

There it is. The inimitable style of Jane Rosenberg. So, some of the -- some of the clips that are from C-Span, Kasie and Jamie, one of them is October 2016. Donald Trump in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania on a campaign stopped his own little Gettysburg address where he said every -- he said he's talking about the accusations from women. You might remember this part of the campaign.

It's not just the Stormy Daniels thing bubbling behind the scenes. In front of the cameras, there are a number of women alleging sexual assault -- sexual harassment. Eve -- "Every woman lied when they came forward to hurt my campaign."

Total fabrication, Mr. Trump said, the events never happened. Never. All of these liars will be sued after the election is over. And point of fact, none of them were sued.

We'll have to squeeze in a quick break. We're tracking testimony from prosecution witness number five. Much more of CNN SPECIAL COVERAGE ahead. Stay with us.

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