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CNN Live Event/Special
Now: Ex-Attorney For Stormy Daniels & Karen McDougal Testifying; Now: Ex-Attorney For Karen McDougal Testifies Former Playmate Told Him Trump Relationship Was "Sexual In Nature". Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired April 30, 2024 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:30:00]
BILL BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP PAYROLL CORP. ATTORNEY: -- break your legs, and he was acquitted. If the defense creates reasonable doubt that this was for political purposes, it's a not guilty. They don't have to prove anything. They have to simply create reasonable doubt. And Jake, as you said earlier, they only need one.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: They only need one. Davidson, Keith Davidson, this is the attorney for both Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, on the stand is saying he's not going to get into his discussions with McDougal about the agreement, but he says one paragraph authorized him to negotiate with media outlets on her behalf.
Elie and Laura, this is one of the questions I wanted to ask. There's such a thing as lawyer-client confidentiality, and I am surprised because of course I am an ignorant caveman, and I don't know anything about the legal world.
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I didn't mean that when I said that about you before. I didn't. That was a joke. I'm a friend.
TAPPER: I am an ignorant caveman. I am a humble caveman. But my point is that why is he allowed to testify about representing clients that paid him money to represent him? I mean, that's one of the things you pay for when you pay for a lawyer, is their discretion.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Indeed. It's the attorney-client privilege and it has to have been waived here. It could be that the clients themselves waived it. It could be that it's already been waived by things that have been said in public.
TAPPER: But when you see that Davidson says he's not going to get into his discussions with Karen McDougal --
HONIG: Right.
TAPPER: -- about the so-called hush money agreement, the --
HONIG: The other possibility is they've agreed to carve it out, in other words.
TAPPER: OK.
HONIG: We're going to call Mr. Davidson to the stand. He's going to testify about his dealings with Michael Cohen --
TAPPER: By the way --
HONIG: -- but not his --
TAPPER: Interrupting, I'm sorry.
HONIG: Yes.
TAPPER: In June 7th, 2016 text, Keith Davidson, the attorney for Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougall, writes to Dylan Howard, the editor-in-chief of the National Enquirer at that time, "I have a Blockbuster Trump story." So that sounds juicy. But, anyway, go ahead --
HONIG: We're getting to the heart of the matter. So, yes, it has to be that they've agreed. We're going to work around the attorney-client privilege.
TAPPER: Howard responds, "Talk first thing. I will get you more than anyone," all caps, "for it. You know why."
HONIG: And this is why --
TAPPER: This is Dylan Howard saying --
HONIG: Yes.
COATES: The right hand man of David Pecker.
HONIG: Yes.
TAPPER: The right hand man of David Pecker. And they have allegedly agreed to tip Donald Trump off to anybody when shopping around stories about him and also to buy these stories for the sole purpose of burying them. And here we have the editor-in-chief of the National Enquirer responding in this text to Keith Davidson, Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal's attorney, saying, we need to talk about this big story. You say you have blockbuster Trump story.
I'll get you more, meaning more money, than anyone for it, meaning than any other publication or TV station or whatever will pay. You know why. The suggestion being, of course, because we agreed to all this because Dylan Howard was at that meeting -- was Dylan Howard at that meeting?
COATES: Dylan Howard was the one to go meet with Karen McDougal in person and say that she -- he honestly believed the story --
TAPPER: Right.
COATES: -- and went back to David Pecker.
TAPPER: Now Davidson explains he reached out concerning their interaction between Karen McDougal and Trump. This is not about Stormy Daniels. This is about Karen McDougal who has the story about a 10, 11-month relationship with Donald Trump beginning in 2006, ending in 2007. And it's -- according to her, a long-term relationship in which she actually develops feelings for him.
COATES: Said that she was in love with him in an interview with Anderson Cooper as well. But to Elie's point, you were raising the idea of the carve out, right? You do want to preserve the sanctity of the attorney-client relationship. It should -- it lives at its owned by the actual client.
The client gets to say whether it's waived or not. But you can obviously by virtue of him having immunity, he testified before a grand jury, it's evident that he has immunity and they're going to carve out some portion to suggest, I want you to tell me about your interactions with those who were not your client.
Even though it was in service on behalf of your client, those who were not your client, including Davidson, of course, and others in this testimony. This is so important again because you want to get a sense of the motivation here. That's a very critical part of what they have to prove for the prosecution.
Not just there was a catch and kill, fine. Those are lawful for other reasons, but that it had to be the motivation and the you know why that's lingering is important.
TAPPER: June 10th text, Dylan Howard, editor of the National Enquirer, writes to Keith Davidson who is the lawyer representing Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, did he cheat on Melania? June 10th text. Bill Brennan, this doesn't necessarily hurt the defense's cause if the defense is, he paid this money or he was involved in trying to help hide the story in any way.
BRENNAN: Jake, I think you can do a little better than that. It actually helps the defense's case.
TAPPER: Well, I was going to let you have that.
BRENNAN: I mean, there it is right there. First response, he says to Davidson, you know why. And then he writes, not -- wow, well, this mess up the campaign. Wow, well, this, you know, cause a drop in the polls. Did he cheat on his wife? And that's the defense in this case. And if the prosecution can't get over it, it's a not guilty.
TAPPER: Davidson testifies, I don't know if I had a clear understanding at the time, but he says he understood that David Pecker, the publisher of the tabloid Empire, and Donald Trump were friends, and that that tabloid Empire, AMI, had endorsed Trump, Jamie.
[12:35:10]
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So I think that's right there speaks to those three words, you know why. The implication is, we'll pay more than everybody else. There are other tabloids, other organizations that pay for scandal stories, but it's, you know why is because we're a friend of Trump.
TAPPER: You know why, what does that mean? It's subject to interpretation. What I think it means might be something different than what Bill thinks it means. All these are texts hitting at the heart of an alleged deal to catch and kill a blockbuster Trump story in the middle of the 2016 election.
Keith Davidson, the attorney for both Karen McDougal, Playboy's 1998 Playmate of the Year, and Stormy Daniels, the acclaimed adult film star and director, is still on the stand. Much more from inside the court next.
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[12:40:41]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: You're watching CNN's special live coverage right now. Drama in that Manhattan courtroom that you're looking at here as Keith Davidson just testified before the jury referring to Karen McDougal saying Ms. McDougal alleged she had a romantic affair with Donald Trump and that McDougal expressed that the relationship was indeed sexual in nature.
We are covering all aspects of this as Keith Davidson, a reminder, he was the attorney who facilitated the payments to Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, is now on the witness stand. We are told that Trump has been passing notes to his attorneys as all of this is happening.
And we have Judge Grasso back with us. As judge, you have been inside this courtroom every day listening to this testimony from these witnesses. As the prosecutors have been bringing them forward, often, you know, the defense has been complaining they don't know far in advance who these witnesses are going to be. They have a general idea.
I wonder what you make of the significance, though, of what Keith Davidson is testifying now about Karen McDougal and what she was alleging about her affair with Donald Trump.
GEORGE GRASSO, RETIRED JUDGE, QUEENS COUNTY SUPREME COURT: Well, here's the thing. Due to the strict rules of the court and the fact that we actually have a former president as a defendant, I can't just go inside and outside of the courtroom, it will. So you probably know more right now about what Keith Davidson's testifying than me because, you know, I've been here, you know, ready to talk to you. So I haven't seen it.
I did explain to earlier, you know, the significance of Keith Davidson because of what David Pecker testified to, which I saw in its entirety. So I'm not surprised to hear feedback from you that he testified to the things, including the specific nature of the relationship with Karen McDougall that you articulated, because that's exactly the type of things that David Pecker was talking about. But if you can, something I did see this morning that was really very, very significant was the ruling that Judge Merchan made on the gag order. Would you like me to speak to that for a couple of minutes?
COLLINS: Yes, we've read that gag order at length. It certainly is a notable part of this. We'll see if Donald Trump reacts to it when he leaves court later today.
Judge, stand by for a moment because we are getting these live updates from inside the courtroom of what Keith Davidson --
GRASSO: Right.
COLLINS: -- is getting at on the witness stand. They're starting with Karen McDougal and right now in a June 27, 2016 text Keith Davidson told Dylan Howard, who is the editor-in-chief of the National Enquirer, "It's a story that should be told." Howard texted back, "I agree."
And Paula and Karen, you're back here with me. And Paula and Karen, as we're looking at this, he's starting with the McDougal story.
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: We know the Stormy Daniels story is coming. Why are they telling it in this sequence, do you believe?
REID: Davidson is such a fascinating witness. Because remember, Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, they weren't reaching out to AMI themselves. They had their representative, their go between, their lawyer, Mr. Davidson, and he is able to talk about the details, how this outreach happened, what the response was, how the payments were set up for both of these women, and most importantly, why they were different, right?
One is a catch and kill with Karen McDougal. Her story is purchased and then never published, and then with Stormy Daniels, she receives this payoff, and all of this is happening in the days leading up to the election. Here we're learning that in a June 27th, 2016 text, Davidson told Howard -- Davidson confirms that he was also in discussions with ABC News about McDougal's story.
COLLINS: And this is important because it gets to the how and the why and the when. Because initially, what Keith Davidson is saying, Karen, is that they went to the National Enquirer and they weren't interested in buying the story at that time, whether it was how much money they wanted or what the parameters of any agreement was.
And now Keith Davidson is saying, well, after they found out that ABC had interest in telling the story, and that we were also in communication with them. That is when Keith Davidson and his emissary that he was in touch with at the National Enquirer then said, actually, let's revisit this conversation as they were getting closer and closer to the 2016 election.
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. Look, it's not like these affairs just happened, right? The affair with Karen McDougal happened 10 years prior to this discussion.
[12:45:02]
The reason that these women were shopping around their stories at this time was because Donald Trump was a candidate for office. This was June 2016, it's right before the election.
COLLINS: The convention. He's about to become the official nominee.
FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: Exactly. And so, that's why this was happening now. This was clearly all about the election. And that's why this is so critical and why he is -- why -- so right now he's testifying. Davidson says the objective was to create a sense of urgency, OK?
COLLINS: Well, I mean, it gets to, you know, the unseemly aspect of this world of the National Enquirer and attorneys who their jobs were negotiating NDAs. He says he's basically trying to play the two entities off of one another, Paula.
REID: Yes, get the best deal for his client, get her as much money as he possibly can. It'll be interesting to see how that kind of plays with the jury because there's certainly an ick factor there. But the urgency of course comes from the fact that there is an election. So that's likely where you're going to see prosecutors really hone in on because the theory of their -- this case.
Well, yes, it's about falsifying business records, is that they were falsified in an effort to help Trump win the election. So Davidson says his goal was to get the best deal for his client with whichever outlet.
COLLINS: Yes, that's exactly what you were saying there. He was trying to play the two entities off of one another. This is riveting testimony that we are getting from inside the court as Keith Davidson is going through how he negotiated the tabloids to buy the stories of his clients. This particular one, an affair alleged between Donald Trump and Karen McDougal that she says was sexual in nature.
Much more of CNN's special coverage just in moments.
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[12:51:15]
TAPPER: And you're watching CNN special live coverage right now. Right this minute, prosecutors are questioning Keith Davidson, he's the attorney who handled both the Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels hush money deals. And right now, the information is coming in live. Keith Davidson says Karen McDougall's goals were to, quote, "rejuvenate her career to make money and to avoid telling the story and being termed the scarlet letter."
She did not want to tell her story about her alleged romance with Mr. Trump, according to her former attorney, Keith Davidson. She did not want to tell her story, Davidson says. But that does not mean, Laura, that she didn't want to be paid -- COATES: Right.
TAPPER: -- to not tell her story.
COATES: Exactly, which people can enter into NDAs. That's perfectly legal. Remember from David Pecker, we're building on this testimony. He testified that she didn't want to become Monica Lewinsky, was the phrase that he used.
He also saying the ABC deal with whom they were also in talks with required her to tell her story. So she'd like the AMI deal, which wouldn't force her to do that. Remember --
TAPPER: Yes. Just to pick people up to speed, ABC News is, at this point, we're told, according to this testimony, trying to get Karen McDougal --
COATES: Right.
TAPPER: -- to sit down for an interview with them. And she's getting pressure from some group of women that Keith Davidson referred to as the estrogen mafia. I don't know what that means, and it's not my term, so --
BRENNAN: I wouldn't touch --
TAPPER: Save your emails and social media posts. But there is some pressure on Karen McDougal to tell her story to ABC News.
COATES: Now this is the antithesis though of a catch and kill, right? Catch and kill is what David Pecker wants to do. To catch the story --
TAPPER: Right.
COATES: -- to own the rights, and then never have it come out. ABC News, according to this conversation with the ABC deal they're alluding to is, I want to buy your story so I can actually tell the story, which is not to do what she want to do.
And so, the idea of her going and said to AMI, which remember David Pecker has agreed to pay that one. But remember, this is different than what they did was with Stormy Daniels. That was a case they said they were not touching. Michael Cohen's the one to provide that money. And that has been the source of what is the charge behavior here in terms of the falsified business records. This gave this additional (INAUDIBLE).
TAPPER: We should note that when it says the ABC deal, we don't know if that means money because journalistic organizations in the United States are not supposed to pay for stories. That said, there are ways to get around that by saying, well, we'll pay you for --
COATES: Photos.
TAPPER: -- your photographs or we'll pay you for this. I mean, that is not -- KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well --
TAPPER: That's a way to work around journalistic rules but we don't know what this deal is.
HUNT: The testimony that we heard --
TAPPER: Hold on one second, I'm sorry. Keith Davidson's first offer to Dylan Howard, how about $1 million now and $75,000 per year for the next two years as a fitness correspondent for AMI and your related publications. That is a sweet deal.
Keith Davidson asking for that from Dylan Howard. Dylan Howard responds over text, I'll take it to them, but thinking it's more hundreds than millions. Meaning, we'll give you some money, but you are, you know, you are way out kicking your coverage right there.
HUNT: Well, and we know that it ended up in a much lower place than that.
TAPPER: $150,000.
HUNT: Right.
TAPPER: Yes.
HUNT: And to your point about ABC, the testimony that we heard earlier in the trial was that it was a spot on Dancing with the Stars, which obviously is the --
TAPPER: Oh, is that what it was?
HUNT: That was what was --
TAPPER: So not ABC News? ABC Entertainment.
HUNT: -- in the testimony. Well, if ABC Entertainment, you know, I mean, in theory, I suppose you could make that kind of a deal. I don't --
TAPPER: So Davidson says he interpreted Dylan Howard's email his text back to mean, I should expect a counteroffer that was substantially left. Very astute interpretation. Yes, hundreds over millions would be less.
HUNT: Well, in fairness, this is where you start a negotiation, right? Ask high, settle for low.
[12:55:00]
BRENNAN: Kasie, they go from a million up front and 75 over the next few years to a spot on Dancing with the Stars. I mean --
TAPPER: No, no, that's two different offers.
HUNT: No, they're two different things. BRENNAN: Oh, two different --
TAPPER: Two different offers, two different offers.
HUNT: Dancing With the Stars was, as we've -- and, again, I'm relying on what we know from the course of this trial because as Jake points out, this is not considered to be standard practice that a respected news organization --
BRENNAN: Right.
TAPPER: But maybe it wasn't ABC News. Maybe it was ABC Entertainment.
HUNT: Well, I think the idea is, she tells it on Good Morning America and this is something that they can do because she's telling it on Good Morning America. OK, we'll introduce you to these people over here.
BRENNAN: What do you think the 12 people in that box are thinking with all this swarmy, really distasteful --
TAPPER: Hold that thought because we'll get -- we'll talk about that more in the future. $1 million, Keith Davidson on the stand walking the jury through the dollar amounts he was negotiating for Karen McDougal, the 1998 Playboy Playmate of the Year, who wanted to avoid telling her story of an alleged affair with Donald Trump, according to her attorney, Mr. Davidson.
More CNN special live coverage from inside the court, just ahead.
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[13:00:00]
