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CNN Live Event/Special

Ex-Atty For Stormy Daniels & Karen Mcdougal Resumes Testimony; Columbia Threatens To Expel Protesters Occupying Academic Building. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:02]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: And welcome back to our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Erin Burnett is outside the courthouse in New York.

We are tracking a series of very fast-moving developments at this historic criminal trial. Prosecutors are still questioning the attorney, Keith Davidson, who represented both Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels. He helped facilitate both of their hush money deals tied to alleged affairs with Donald Trump. Erin?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: Well, Wolf, Davidson is the fourth witness of the day. And it was a day that started with Trump being held in contempt, fined $9,000 for violating the gag order, nine times, $1,000 per violation.

I'm joined again by Paula Reid and Phil Mattingly. And Paula, interesting, some of the context from the room right now, as Davidson's continuing to testify, is that he's turning towards the jury. Of course, he's an attorney ...

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BURNETT: ... and he knows to do that.

But what I found interesting this morning was pretty much all four of the witnesses did. It's very - it's just very intimate, so it was very natural when asked a question, even in this direction, to sort of naturally look a little bit at you and then talk to the jury.

REID: Yes, they're telling a story to the jury. I want to interrupt for one second, right now, where we keep Davidson on the stand, and he's talking about the impact that the Access Hollywood tape had on interest in the story of one of his clients, Stormy Daniels.

He said, "Wave the white flag. It's over." Howard responded to Davidson, and this is, of course, an exchange again about the Access Hollywood tape. Apparently, David had just texted Howard saying, "Trump is effed."

So they're talking about how the Access Hollywood tape really changed the calculation in terms of interest in Stormy Daniels' story about an alleged affair with Trump. There was this concern that the Access Hollywood tape would be the end of Trump's chances at the White House. And there was this added incentive to suppress negative stories, particularly of a sexual nature, so that's what Davidson is texting about right now.

BURNETT: And that's really important, because in the context of that, right, they realize they've got this huge problem and then the urgency. That's what they were laying out earlier this morning with Farro, the prosecution, the urgency with which Michael Cohen set up this LLC to pay Stormy Daniels.

And that from initiation, to funding, to wire going out, there weren't even 24 hours.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT & ANCHOR: Yes.

BURNETT: So they're trying to establish both that all of a sudden there was a crisis and that there was a very quick move in that case to pay off Stormy Daniels to suppress the story for the campaign.

MATTINGLY: And the story that's being told by Davidson right now is the genesis of how they got to this point, which has included Keith Davidson saying there was not actually a lot of interest in this story in the marketplace. Those are his words about the Stormy Daniels story prior to the Access Hollywood tape coming out. And it was when the Access Hollywood tape came out that the entire dynamic shifted.

And you'll remember the prosecution has been talking about this driving towards this point as everything changed then. This is what dramatically changed this moment for Donald Trump, for Michael Cohen, for everybody that was involved in this case. And Davidson making very clear people were aware of issues about the story had been raised prior. That's when the discussion about Michael Cohen and Michael Cohen being a jerk, which some words.

REID: Yes, right. Right.

MATTINGLY: Which by the way, I think a lot of us would acknowledge, it's fairly familiar. Michael Cohen calling, yelling, being very angry at somebody it's kind of his MO.

REID: Yes.

MATTINGLY: But the - what changed was the Access Hollywood tape and they're making very clear in these text messages that are being read that Davidson and others thought that Trump's campaign was dead in the water. But what changed is the Stormy Daniels story also got new legs and reached kind of a peak moment for them.

BURNETT: So what I'm trying to understand, Paula, though, is that clearly the prosecution is trying to make the case that the Karen McDougal payment - they're illustrating this pattern.

REID: Yes. BURNETT: But yet it also seems to go against what they're saying, right? They're saying and they lay it all out, I'm reading a lot of emphasis on the dates of these text exchanges between Karen McDougal's lawyer, also Keith Davidson and AMI all in June.

[15:05:02]

REID: Yes.

BURNETT: Right? Well, before any of this. So they're saying, well, before any of this, AMI was willing to pay for a story to help Donald Trump. And then - but then at the same time, they're trying to say, oh, it was all because of the Access Hollywood. That's what made it. But that hadn't happened then.

So what - how does this Karen McDougal situation help them directly?

REID: So Karen McDougal situation, Stormy Daniels situation, they are similar and that they both have stories about alleged affairs with Trump, but they are different. And that Karen McDougal story was bought by the company that owns the National Enquirer and then suppressed long before the Access Hollywood tape.

But you can tell from Davidson's testimony that they still knew that suppressing that story was helping the Trump campaign. What's different about the Stormy Daniels situation is that her story was suppressed through an agreement with Michael Cohen. So Michael Cohen arranges to pay her effectively hush money. That's not a crime. The issue, though, is that this was done to help prosecutors allege Trump win the election and also they falsified documents in order to facilitate this payment.

So earlier today, we heard from Cohen's banker ...

BURNETT: Right.

REID: ... who said, yes, I thought you were setting up the shell company for a real estate transaction. I had no idea this had anything to do with a porn star. If it did, it would have gotten more scrutiny.

So Karen McDougal ...

BURNETT: Right.

REID: ... is brought in to establish a pattern. But it's the Stormy Daniels hush money payment, that is the core of the criminal case here.

BURNETT: The criminal case because of the falsifying documents.

REID: Exactly. Yes.

BURNETT: All right.

REID: And all done in furtherance of an effort to help Trump win the White House and that's what elevates falsifying checks or business records to a felony. The idea that it was done in furtherance of really a federal crime, they say.

BURNETT: Yes.

REID: Again, he's not charged with that. They don't have to prove that. But by saying they're connected, that it was done in furtherance of this, that is how this was elevated to a felony.

BURNETT: Right. Federal crime, of course, which was not charged.

REID: Exactly. And that's where things start to get ...

BURNETT: Yes.

REID: ... a little tricky in this case.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you both.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: All right. Thanks, Erin.

It's interesting, Elliot, they're spending a lot of time talking about the Access Hollywood videotape, which, of course, all of us remember. But the judge has ruled they can't show it to the jurors, why?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Because the video itself could be seen as prejudicial to the defendant. They can speak about what - the fact that it existed, the fact that people had reactions to it, that there were communications about the video, the sort of things we're seeing here, the aftermath and the fallout.

But the evidence itself, sort of as conveyed on the video, just runs afoul of evidentiary rules and they just don't want to get in that ...

BLITZER: There's a lot of questions about that tape, the impact it could have on the whole situation.

WILLIAMS: Yes, certainly. And I know Elie Honig has had this happen to him, too, at trial, too. There are - there is information that's in the world where you have the words of a defendant, the words of a witness, a document, a piece of clothing that for whatever reason can't be brought into court. It would help your case, it would help establish that the defendant - the defendant's guilt.

But for whatever reason, under - whether it's hearsay rules or other rules of evidence or not wanting to unduly prejudice a defendant, it can't come into court and it just happens.

BLITZER: How significant is it, Elie, that prosecutors are asking Keith Davidson, the lawyer, so many questions about Stormy Daniels?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they're trying to establish a link here, obviously, because Davidson represented Stormy Daniels. And I think the Access Hollywood tape is becoming this pivotal moment, right, where the prosecutors' argument is this is where they got really scared for Donald Trump's electoral prospects. And there's a text that the jury was just shown, we had an update a couple minutes ago, where Dylan Howard from AMI, from the company that publishes ...

BLITZER: (INAUDIBLE) ...

HONIG: ... right, from the National Enquirer, texts Keith Davidson, who's Stormy Daniels' attorney, "This is the final nail in the coffin," referring to the Access Hollywood tape. Now, prosecutors will love that. It's a visceral image. That'll stick in the jury's head. In fact, that's your whole argument about the Access Hollywood tape, if you're the prosecution.

That tape, when that came out, that was the final nail in the coffin. That's why they were so desperate to pay off Stormy Daniels. The downside is it's not exactly between the people you want it to be between. It's between underlings. It's not - it doesn't involve Michael Cohen, doesn't involve Donald Trump, doesn't even involve David Pecker. But still, that's a good text for the prosecutors.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And it turned out to be a pretty bad political analysis.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

HONIG: True, it was not the final.

CHALIAN: (INAUDIBLE) ...

HONIG: There was no coffin.

CHALIAN: Yes.

BLITZER: There's a lot of people, as you remember, David, a lot of us remember at the time when that Access Hollywood ...

BORGER: Yes.

BLITZER: ... videotape came out. We all thought it might be the end of the Trump campaign.

CHALIAN: We certainly thought it might be. It ended up that it wasn't. We all were in this collective moment of holding our breath to see what the Republican Party was going to do around him. And at the end of the day, it was not his undoing at the end of that election.

You'll recall, in fact, that story broke on a Friday. There was a debate on Sunday against Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump showed up with all of Bill Clinton's female accusers. I mean, the whole thing was just an insane 48 hours.

BORGER: But it does explain the panic. We see this bravado outside, right? And Donald Trump goes to the debate, and he tries to flip the script on Bill - on Hillary Clinton. But what was going on inside the campaign was Michael Cohen's panic.

[15:10:01] And Michael Cohen, even though he didn't work for the campaign, he worked for Donald Trump, but it explains, partially, why he was so insistent and why they didn't want to deal with him, because he got crazy, right? And he wanted things done quickly. He wanted the - Karen McDougal done quickly. But Stormy, he was really worried about and it explains it.

Now, did he go and panic that much on his own? Was he being directed by Donald Trump? Did Donald Trump say to him, handle it, which is the normal way he would do things? I mean, that has yet to come out. But it does explain Michael Cohen's behavior, in a way, and why he was so crazed.

HONIG: Historically, those are the exact questions the jury is wondering right now, too.

BLITZER: Yes.

BORGER: Right.

BLITZER: All right. Everybody stick around. We've got a lot more to assess. More information is coming in.

Our special coverage will continue right after a quick break.

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[15:15:23]

BURNETT: Testimony in the first criminal trial of former President Donald Trump is underway right now. Keith Davidson, who was an attorney for both Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, is on the stand.

And joining me now is Robert Ray, a former federal prosecutor who served as Donald Trump's counsel in his first impeachment trial.

So, Robert, in the courtroom, Keith Davidson, when he came up, he - it's clear he isn't - he's not thrilled to be there, but he knows what he's doing as a lawyer. He's addressing the jury. He's answering questions directly and obviously, this is a crucial witness for the prosecution. So therefore, the cross-examination will be very important.

How do you expect Trump's attorneys to cross-examine Keith Davidson?

ROBERT RAY, FORMER TRUMP COUNSEL DURING TRUMP'S FIRST IMPEACHMENT: Carefully. Obviously, understanding that left unrebutted, the Trump attorneys' need to make certain that they get some things that they need. On the other hand, you want to be very careful about how you handle that witness and not try to do too much to let a witness kind of wander off in areas that potentially could be damaging.

So I - most lawyers in this situation where you're talking about a prior client relationships, I think will be - will answer very carefully and I think you take that as a given if you're Trump's defense lawyers and you try to make some very limited objectives. And then when you're done, don't prolong the cross-examination. It's time to quit.

BURNETT: Which is, I think, knowing it's time to quit has been interesting in every one of these cases when there's been a cross, there's been another redirect and then another re-cross. It seems to be just the way this is going again and again.

Robert, jurors have also heard more about the Access Hollywood tape and Michael Cohen's fear, his concern about the effect that the Stormy Daniels story would have on the Trump campaign.

Obviously, we've been talking about this here. The Karen McDougal situation and payment predated the Access Hollywood tape, right? So you've got Karen McDougal, then Access Hollywood, months later, then Stormy Daniels. How do you think that the prosecution is handling this thus far when they're trying to prove that the Stormy Daniels case was different in this crucial regard of the urgency with which the campaign felt it had to address this issue in the days before the election?

RAY: I think they're managing it about as well as could be expected. But the facts here ultimately are ones that the jury is trying to evaluate. I mean, they're not going to evaluate how the prosecution handled this. Ultimately, I think they're going to have a view about whether those facts add up and are persuasive to the government's case about what the motivations were by the campaign and more specifically, since the campaign's not on trial but Donald Trump is, about specifically what his intent was.

And they're trying to create a narrative and a story and you understand why and they're seeking to introduce evidence with regard to all three of those that you mentioned in that regard. The question is whether or not those facts add up. They either do or they don't. The prosecution can make that effort. It's the job of the defense to sort of poke holes in that narrative factually if it can be done ...

BURNETT: Yes.

RAY: ... to talk about alternatively ...

BURNETT: Robert, I guess, it ...

RAY: ... or at least imply alternatively ...

BURNETT: Yes.

RAY: ... that there were other reasons why the campaign was doing what it was doing.

BURNETT: Yes. And I mean, I guess what I'm - obviously, the of this case is falsification of business documents related to the Stormy Daniels payment. But this morning, they spent a lot of time ...

RAY: Right.

BURNETT: ... getting Keith Davidson to say that he knew that doing a deal for Karen McDougal, which is not obviously the criminal allegation in this case, was in and of itself done to influence the election. I mean, the direct question to Keith Davidson about the Karen McDougal payment was, "If you were to close this deal, did you have an understanding that this would help candidate Trump?" Keith Davidson answers in one word, "Yes." And then he elaborated that, making it clear that he knew it would help Trump's candidacy. Do you think that that's confusing to jurors at all, right? Because you're making the point that the Karen McDougal payment was to help Trump's candidacy, but then they're not essentially trying to say that there's anything wrong with that in that case.

[15:20:02]

RAY: I think, look, it - at one level, Erin, I mean, let's just talk about common sense, which is ultimately what a jury of 12 exercise, right? I mean, that's what they're charged with doing. The common sense aspect of this is that you've got to be careful about how far the prosecution takes this.

At one level, almost anything potentially affects the outcome of a campaign. And all of those - some things that potentially affect an outcome of a campaign obviously are not illegal. So I think it's going to be tough. This is why there's a trial for the jury to sort of separate out are - is there a zone of facts here which are intended to directly impact a campaign, which can constitute the felony component of what otherwise is a misdemeanor documents case, and that will be the issue. And the prosecution is trying to shore that up in these three areas.

But you have to be careful about how far you take that, because, again, at a very common sense level, anything that anybody does potentially has the effect of impacting a campaign.

BURNETT: All right. Robert Ray, thank you very much. We appreciate your weighing in. And we are continuing to follow in the breaking trial, as well as the breaking news right now unfolding on college campuses across the country, including at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, with some truly intense altercations between police and protesters moments ago. A confrontation between the two groups over whether the U.S. or Palestinian flag would fly from that flagpole on your screen. We'll be back next.

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[15:26:17]

BLITZER: In addition to the Trump criminal trial, we're also following major breaking news on college campuses all across the United States. A short time ago, police and pro-Palestinian protesters clashed over at the University of North Carolina. At one point, police were even pushing back some of the demonstrators. We just learned the school has now canceled classes.

Meantime, dozens of protesters at Columbia University in New York remain inside a campus administrative building after breaking inside overnight. We have our correspondents live at both campuses monitoring these late-breaking developments for us.

I want to start with CNN's Polo Sandoval. He's live over at Columbia University.

Polo, I understand students are now being threatened with expulsion, not just suspension, but expulsion for these demonstrations. Is that having any effect so far on the protests there?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not at this point, Wolf. And that threat is aimed directly at the individuals that are occupying the building that you may be able to see over my right shoulder. Just outside of the perimeter of the Columbia University, we've seen a pro- Palestinian protest likely standing, marching in solidarity with the individuals that are occupying the building on campus, which is the one that you're able to see there. My colleague, Jeff Winter, had an opportunity to actually speak to one of the negotiators that was a member of the Columbia University Apartheid Divest, which one of the negotiators was participating in these conversations that finally, in his stalemate, recently.

Mahmoud Khalil telling my colleague that there are some members of his organization that are actively participating in the occupation of that historic Hamilton Hall. Khalil also adding that whatever happens next is entirely in the hands of the university. And he also said another thing that's quite interesting here, Wolf, Khalil telling CNN that he is calling on negotiations to resume between the people who are inside that building, that are in it for the long haul, apparently, based on what we saw earlier today, and the university, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Polo, stand by. I want to go to see Dianne Gallagher. She's over at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.

Dianne, we saw some very heated moments not that long ago between police and protesters where you are at the University of North Carolina. What's happening now?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, for now, the police are gone from Polk Place. We're not sure if they are going to return, but I want you to see what's behind me. You mentioned earlier that the University of North Carolina sent out a Carolina alert canceling classes, basically from 3 PM until midnight.

Now, look, this is the last day of classes. The police in the video or anything that you saw earlier in the hour coming out here, some of the protesters had taken the original American flag down. They hoisted a Palestinian flag, they were arm-in-arm chanting and dancing and protesting, and that's when we saw the police sort of run across Polk Place, push some of those protesters down, push them out of the way.

The interim chancellor of the university was also out there with them as they brought the flag you're seeing now back out and raised that flag on this flagpole. As soon as the police sort of were pushed or walked off of this area, we saw some other who appear to be students come here and try and keep that flag up.

Another protester brought it down almost immediately after police left. And we now have students who, at least for the past 20 minutes or so, have been holding up the American flag.

Now, again, this all comes hours after there was an encampment that was here for about 90 hours that was cleared by law enforcement. About 30 students detained. Many of those students tell me that they felt that it was extremely violent by police in the morning, about 6 AM.

[15:30:02]

They got about like 20-minute at-best notice, they said.