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CNN Live Event/Special

UCLA Protesters Detained by Police; Trump's Gag Order Hearing. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

SARAH KRISSOFF, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Proven. And so the DA's office has to counter that, which is why they're laying this very careful foundation of these other witnesses who are stronger for them, who will - or as Jennifer said, corroborating Michael Cohen even before he testifies.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Sarah Krissoff, Jennifer Rodgers, our thanks to both of you.

This has been CNN NEWS CENTRAL.

CNN's coverage of Donald Trump on trial begins right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: (INAUDIBLE) stories this hour on opposite coasts of the United States of America.

In Los Angeles, police are making scores of arrests as they swept through an anti-war encampment in the heart of UCLA's campus.

I'm Jake Tapper in Washington. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kaitlan Collins in New York where in minutes Donald Trump's hush money trial is going to resume. Moments ago we saw the former president of the United States walking back into court where he has no choice but to sit and listen to witnesses tell a story in which he is the main character and for which he could potentially end up in prison.

Soon, Keith Davidson, who was the former attorney for the adult film star actress and director Stormy Daniels, will go back under the oath. In minutes, the judge is also going to hold a hearing to consider if the former president has again violated his gag order four more times.

TAPPER: So, you will be able to see on the left hand of your screen minute by minute updates from our reporters inside the courthouse. There it is. Even as we go live to the breaking news out of Los Angeles, where we are again seeing tensions hit a tipping point. CNN teams are on the ground and watching as police in Los Angeles load arrested student protesters and perhaps others onto buses. CNN's Camila Bernal has been at UCLA all morning as police moved in to dismantle the campus encampment I think at roughly 1:00 a.m. Pacific Time.

Camila, tell us what's happening now.

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jake, just moments ago we're hearing more flash bangs. We had not heard these flash bangs in a while. And it's unclear exactly where they're coming from, but it is clear that this is still very active there are many, many law enforcement officers still on the scene.

This is the current focus next to the encampment. What you're seeing is a group of protesters who are still shouting and screaming at police officers, still talking about divestment, still talking about the fact that they want to be heard and that they're hoping that they are allowed to remain here. They're telling CHP with this loudspeaker that they have been beating children. That is the language that they had been using towards these police officers.

And it's hard to see from where I am, but the group is larger. Right in that area where the protesters are, are stairs going down. So, we believed that that group is a lot bigger than what you're seeing on your screen.

Again, it is just a line of police officers in riot gear. They have been here all morning. And we saw them encircle this encampment.

Just to show you where the encampment is, I'm going to turn around and show you what they cleared. This is the area that police officers cleared this morning using those flash bangs and essentially coming in through all sides of the encampment to then corner all of those protesters into one area. They tried holding hands and linking arms to try to stay together and avoid arrest. But one by one, every single protester that was inside of this encampment was arrested by law enforcement. They were taken to nearby buses, which actually I still see a bus right now. So, it's unclear if they're going to continue arresting people.

But we do know that the people inside of the encampment have been detained and taken to those buses. And so, again, the focus has now shifted to this area, which is still very much an active scene, Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Camila Bernal at the campus of UCLA. Early this morning, roughly 1:00 a.m. Pacific Time, we're told police came in to take down the encampment their of the anti-Israeli, anti-war protesters. We'll continue to check back on that scene, as well as college campuses throughout the country.

But let us turn now back to what's going on in the courtroom, which is - well, Kaitlan Collins, why don't you handle that.

COLLINS: Yes, Jake, just to get you up to speed, just in those few moments there as we were hearing what's happening on UCLA's campus, Donald Trump has entered the courtroom. Prosecutors are in there. The jury's not yet in there because what is happening right now is prosecutors are making their case that Donald Trump has violated his gag order four more times and they are now going through this with the judge. They'll make their arguments. And then Trump's defense team will get up to make their arguments. We'll see. Last time it didn't go so well for them because the judge did find that he had violated it nine times.

[09:35:00]

Four instances are now up for discussion.

I'm here with our chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid and Karen Friedman Agnifilo, who is the former chief assistant district attorney in the Manhattan DA's office. I should note, Karen is of counsel for a firm that represents Michael Cohen, but she doesn't have any contact with them. She doesn't work on his case. There's no restrictions on what she can say as we are focusing on what Trump can potentially say and whether or not he's violated his gag order.

I should note, the first alleged violation is over Trump's statement that was related to the jury, when he commented and said the jury was picked so fast that it was 95 percent Democrats.

Paula, obviously, a statement that Trump made with no basis but it does prevent him, in this gag order, from commenting or directing other people to comment on the jury.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is arguably the most serious alleged violation because anything that would scare the jury away from, you know, coming in, doing their job, that is really at the heart of what the gag order is meant to protect, people who are just doing their jobs, are complying with their civic duty.

Now, in addition to this alleged violation, there's three others that they're alleging. And all of these occurred before the Trump fined - the judge fined Trump $9,000 last week. So, the other two are two statements that are highly critical of Michael Cohen. And then another ambiguous statement about David Pecker, where he says he's been really nice. I know some people could say, well, what's wrong with that, but you could interpret that, you know, as sort of intimidating in some contexts, which is why you have the gag order.

Now, right now the prosecutors are saying that the gag order was issued because of Trump's persistent attacks on the protected folks under the gag order. He goes on to say that Trump uses his platform here to criticize the jury seated in this case. And again, I think this is the most serious of the four alleged violations and the one that's going to be the most difficult for his lawyers to defend.

COLLINS: Yes, and, Karen, we're seeing this picture. This is Trump in court today. Every day we get a photo of him as he enters the room. I can tell you, I was in the room the other day. It makes a big difference to actually be in the room and to watch all of this happening. And so you see, you know, what Americans aren't seeing by not being able to go into the room. I mean the public can, but it's a very limited amount of people. But on this front, jury is not in the room as this hearing is

happening, but this is important here because the jurors had been at the forefront of wanting to keep them anonymous, but also to keep them safe from threats as they are weighing this case. And the prosecution is now moving on to what Paula was just mentioning there, when he commented on that first witness, David Pecker.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, so for the judge, the jury, talking about the jury and protecting the jury, as Paula said, that's like the third rail, right? That's - it's one thing to talk about Michael Cohen, who often criticizes Trump and Trump is - we'll say he's reacting to that. It's another thing, though, to talk about the jury in any way. So, I think what we're going to see here is you're going to see the judge not only hold him in contempt, but he's - the more important thing is he's going to really admonish him and say, do it again at your own peril.

COLLINS: Well, and look right now, the - that's what exactly the prosecution's arguing. They say he knows what he's doing, that he's talking about the witness who was testifying, David Pecker, and saying, well, he's nice. So, they're basically saying, it's not just when he criticizes the witnesses. Even when he says something nice, I mean that's - we actually have the four moments that are at the heart of this hearing right now.

I just want everyone to be able to listen to what Trump has been saying about the witnesses and to his comments about the jury as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And when are they going to look at all the lies that Cohen did in the last trial? He got caught lying in the last trial. So, he got caught lying. Pure lying. And when are they going to look at that?

That jury was picked so fast. Ninety-five percent Democrats. The area is all - mostly all Democrat. You think of it as a - just a purely Democrat area. It's a very unfair situation, that I can tell you.

Michael Cohen is a convicted liar, and he's got no credibility whatsoever. He was a lawyer, and you rely on your lawyers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What have you thought of David Pecker's testimony so far? When was the last time you spoke to him?

TRUMP: No, he's been very nice. And he's been - David's been very nice. A nice guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: That comment that you heard there about Michael Cohen is exactly what is being discussed at this minute inside that courtroom as prosecutors are pointing to that and saying, Paula, that the defendant, they say, believes that the rule should be different for him. REID: Yes, they do actually argue that. They argue because he is a candidate for the White House, that anything he says is protected political speech and entitled to heightened protections, that he should be able to punch back against people like Michael Cohen, who have made a career out of attacking him. But so far that has not been a winning argument in this court.

But I will say, over the past week or so, we have seen Trump, even before he was fined and even threatened with jail by the judge, we have seen him back off of the prolific violations of the gag order. Instead, he goes after the district attorney, Alvin Bragg, which is fine. He goes after the judge constantly, including yesterday. But instead he's pivoting to having his allies attack some of the folks who are covered by the gag order.

Now we're learning that Trump is leaning over and whispering to his attorney, Todd Blanche, as prosecutors lay out the alleged violations of the gag order. And you'll remember the last time we were in court for a gag order hearing, I mean this did not go well for the defense.

[09:40:00]

They tried to make those constitutional arguments. And that's not what the judge wanted to hear. He wanted to go post by post.

Now, the prosecutor says Cohen and his credibility are a theme for Trump. Yes, that is absolutely true.

COLLINS: Indeed.

REID: It's a theme for the whole case. Like, nobody - nobody seems to (INAUDIBLE).

COLLINS: The judge seemed to suggest in that ruling the other day finding that Trump did violate it that maybe it won't always apply to Michael Cohen, because Michael Cohen has been out there. He has been speaking publicly and very critical of Trump and, you know, saying these things that, you know, Trump's team has argued, OK, he should be able to respond to this.

And, Karen, what they're raising right now is when Trump spoke to the cameras outside of the courtroom on April 22nd. The moment that you just saw there. Trump was campaigning last night. And I was listening to his remarks in Michigan, I believe is where it was, and they're talking about how Trump is able to speak outside the courtroom about Michael Cohen, who is expected to be a witness here and expected to testify. Trump was saying he can't talk about this case at all, but, I mean, he was on camera talking about the case at a rally. He is allowed to talk about the case, he just can't attack witnesses or the other prosecutors on Alvin Bragg's team, though he could still go after Alvin Bragg himself.

AGNIFILO: Exactly. The judge just says, look, you can talk about the case as much as you want. You can campaign as much as you want. You just can't intimidate witnesses, intimidate the jury. That's where the judge has to keep control of his courtroom and the trial so that he can't do that. And that's what he's doing here.

And I think Michael Cohen preemptively said last week he's no longer going to comment on - on this trial, and on Donald Trump. And I think as you - as you pointed out in the gag order decision, last time the judge specifically said, look, this is designed to protect witnesses, but if witnesses go after you, then it might be fair game for you to respond.

I think you're going to see that Todd Blanche is slightly more prepared this time than the last one because Todd Blanche is an excellent attorney. He has a really good reputation.

COLLINS: And they're making a point right now that a lot of this has to do with the timing. They're saying that the timing - this is the most critical time. The time that the proceeding has to be protected. Because that's really what's at the heart of this Paula is a concern that the judge has made clear he also shares that Trump's speaking out can affect this trial.

REID: Yes.

COLLINS: That it could disrupt this trial. Whether that's a witness or a juror.

REID: Absolutely, particularly when it comes to the jury. If you have some instance that creates a situation where jurors, a critical mass of them, don't feel safe coming in, if you don't have those 12 and the defense likely would never agree to do it with just 11, you could have a mistrial. That's why that comment of all of them are the most concerning.

Now, they're saying that - the prosecutor is saying that Trump's statements are corrosive to the proceeding and the fair administration of justice. And that is the spirit of why you have a gag order. It's not to prevent him from speaking to violate his constitutional rights, it's to protect the integrity of the process.

COLLINS: Well, and I've - I was in the courtroom the other day and you see these jurors come in. They don't make eye contact with Trump. And I should note, obviously we're not going to describe them, but there's 12 jurors who sit in there. They're paying rapt attention to what is happening in these proceedings. They're watching very closely. You can tell they take their jobs very seriously here. Their public duties here.

And I should note, you know, the prosecutors are making the argument, pushing back on what you were just saying Todd Blanche's defense could be. They're saying Michael Cohen is not Donald Trump's political opponent. He's the witness in this case. Because they've been arguing Trump should be able to speak out, but they're saying it's not like he can't talk about Joe Biden. He is talking about Michael Cohen.

AGNIFILO: Yes, the prosecutors now saying that the defendant's trying to make this about politics, but it's really about criminal conduct. And they want to focus on the criminal conduct at the trial and have this jury render a verdict, whatever it is. And the jury can't be worried about their safety. They can't be worried about them - their identity being outed or their verdict being second-guessed because people know who they are. That's really upsetting if the jury can't focus on the trial and the evidence, that they have to worry about themselves. That's distracting. And it actually can improperly infect the jury's deliberation.

So, the judge is going to do everything they can to protect against that. And that's why he's not going to allow Trump to comment on the jury at all.

COLLINS: It's so interesting, Paula, when the jury leaves the room for the breaks or when the day's over, none of them make eye contact with Donald Trump. They left the room twice when I was in there and they just - they file right past Donald Trump and his defense team at the table, and also the prosecutors, but they don't make any eye contact with him.

REID: That's fascinating to me. I mean he can be intimidating. But it just speaks to, like you said, how seriously they're taking this. They're not looking to curry favor with him or get his attention.

Now, this argument, though, from the prosecutors right now that he's trying to make this case about politics, I mean, let's just be frank, this case is about politics, right? It's about allegedly interfering with an election. You have an elected district attorney who suggested he would go after Trump.

Now we have another update. The prosecutor says Trump's attorney assured the judge last week that President Trump does, in fact, know what the gag order allows him to do and not allow him to do. And again, the alleged violations we're dealing with today happened about ten days - ten days ago.

[09:45:05]

COLLINS: And they're not seeking jail time. They're making that clear. They're just -

REID: That's important (ph).

COLLINS: They want those $1,000 fines, which is interesting because the judge was lamenting that he could not charge - he could not fine Trump more in this case because he acknowledged it doesn't really make a big difference to Trump to fine him $9,000.

We'll continue to see what the judge decides here as this hearing is going on, whether or not Donald Trump has violated his gag order four more times.

Trump's attorney just stood up and is now going to defend his client. We'll tell you what that defense looks like and if it's any different than the last time.

You are watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:50:09]

TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money coverup trial. The prosecution says they are not seeking jail time yet for the alleged violations of the judge's gag order on Mr. Trump. Government attorneys, prosecutors also say Trump is doing everything he can to make this case about politics when it is not necessarily all about politics. Trump's defense attorney just raised comments that President Biden made about the case at the White House Correspondents Dinner.

We are here with our panel.

And just to go into what is going on exactly in the courtroom right now. Right now they are having the hearing on the gag order. The judge is considering four other alleged offenses that the prosecution says are times that Mr. Trump violated the gag order by attacking the jury or attacking witnesses, especially Michael Cohen. And the judge is hearing arguments from Todd Blanche, who is Trump's main attorney. And Blanche is arguing that Michael Cohen is attacking Trump, and Joe Biden is attacking Trump, and he should be allowed to respond to these attacks. Judge Merchan is reiterating that Trump can't discuss foreseeable trial witnesses. He can respond to anything Biden says, can, but not Michael Cohen.

And, Elie Honig, what exactly is the argument that the Trump attorney, Todd Blanche, is making right now when it comes to why it's OK for Trump to make these comments that the prosecution says - these four new comments - he'd already been found guilty of violating nine previous comments of violations of the gag order. Why is he saying it's OK for these comments?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, Todd Blanche is making the just responding defense. And that is a viable defense. The first set of hearings that we had, the judge found there were ten alleged violations. The judge found that nine of them had occurred. Were, in fact, violations. But the one that the judge said, I do not find a violation, he said, I find it was not a violation because Trump was responding to an attack by Michael Cohen. There was some statement Michael Cohen made. Trump had re-Truthed it and then attacked Michael Cohen.

So, the judge has left the door open for Trump to respond. But the question now being raised is, how specific does the response have to be. Does it have to be, Michael Cohen made this statement against me. Now, I will attack him on the basis of that statement. Or can it be more broad, as Todd Blanche seemingly is arguing right now, well, Joe Biden made these comments about the trial at the White House Correspondents Association, therefore Trump is entitled to respond.

TAPPER: So, Trump's attorney, Todd Blanche, right now is seizing on the judge's order earlier this week that suggests that some of the witnesses. I suspect he's mainly thinking get Michael Cohen -

HONIG: Yes. TAPPER: Might be using the gag order against Mr. Trump as a sword and now a shield. In other words, Dana Bash, Michael Cohen taking advantage of the fact that Trump is not allowed to legally attack him, to attack him. Although I should note, I think last week Michael Cohen announced that he was going to stop talking about the case on social media and on his podcast.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

TAPPER: The new supplemental materials are in response to Judge Merchan's order on Tuesday holding Trump in contempt for the other nine gag order violation.

BASH: Yes, and, you're right, our colleagues in New York were making that exact point about Michael Cohen unilaterally saying, I'm not going to engage.

I just also want to go back, as we look for new updates, to what Blanche, Trump's attorney, said about Joe Biden. It was noteworthy that President Biden, really for the first time, he did it cloaked in humor, because it was at the White House Correspondents Dinner, but the first time you went there on the trial and he talked about stormy weather, and that was clearly what Blanche was referring to when he said that the current president referred to a potential witness.

Also noteworthy that we just heard from the judge explicitly that when it comes to the campaign trail, if Joe Biden does that again, Trump can respond. I mean it maybe seems obvious, but when you have a former president and somebody who is on trial saying that he can't speak, and the judge explicitly saying you can -

TAPPER: Right.

BASH: When it's on the campaign trail and when it's your political opponent, that's on the record now.

TAPPER: Although we should note, David Urban, and we should note also the Todd Blanche, Trump's attorney, is arguing that Trump's comments on David Pecker, the tabloid magnate, sidestepped the question about his testimony and that Trump gave a very factual and neutral answer. This is one of the four alleged violations in which Trump said that Mr. Pecker was being nice and was being nice. Blanche says that Trump's comments about Pecker were not a warning or a commentary on what Pecker would - said. The prosecution said that Trump saying that David Pecker was being nice was basically Trump, along the lines of a mobster, saying, it's a nice place you got here. It'd be a shame if anything happened to it. And kind of like a veiled warning. And Mr. Blanche is saying that's preposterous. He was just saying he's nice. It was a neutral statement.

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean it's - this is also - I mean the play-by-play, the blow by blow is so very interesting to me. And I'm just having to think, what are those jurors sitting there listening to this, right?

[09:55:05] HONIG: Sorry, they're not - they're not in here. I'm sorry.

BASH: They're not in here.

TAPPER: No jurors at the gag order hearing.

URBAN: Not in the gag order hearing. So, there you go.

TAPPER: Yes. It's just the American people. It's just the jurors in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

URBAN: So - so, exactly. So the people out in the real world thing, like, they get lost in all this. It's just like lost in the back-and- forth. And I think overall, when the - you know, Elie points out the, you know, kind of asked and answered response, right, well, if you're attacked, you can attack back. And I saw last night that Michael Cohen was live streaming again, right? And so is - I didn't watch it, but I saw he was doing it. And I think -

TAPPER: I didn't know you were a subscriber.

URBAN: Yes.

TAPPER: But Judge Merchan basically said that it's not just about Mr. Pecker, it's about what other witnesses might be discerning when Trump talks about Mr. Pecker.

URBAN: Right.

TAPPER: Merchan saying I express concerns about Mr. Cohen and Ms. Daniels. And my decision, those are valid. Blanche arguing if Trump - he can't just say no comment repeatedly. He's running for president. Which is another argument there.

URBAN: Yes. And so I just think that the real-world, right, gets lost. This is getting lost on everybody. It's so in the weeds. It's - it's really, really granular and it's just a lot of white noise to America. And I think, you know, Americans, and you'd walk up to somebody and say, if Michael Cohen's punching Trump in the face, can't he - why can't he punch back? And that's the argument that Trump, I think, seems to be making that may be sticking a bit.

TAPPER: Yes.

URBAN: I don't think anybody thinks that he should be able to attack the judge or the prosecutor, or other witnesses. But Michael Cohen seems different here for (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: And the jury -

URBAN: So, Judge Merchan is saying there are no surprises when it comes to the media coverage. In minutes we may soon get a ruling from the bench on whether Donald Trump broke a gag order four additional times.

We're going to have much more from our reporters inside the courthouse.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)