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Now: Former Lawyer For Stormy Daniels On The Stand; Soon: Defense Cross-Examines Former Lawyer For Stormy Daniels. Aired 11:30a- 12p ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

ADAM KAUFMANN, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT D.A., MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Listening to what is being said. But they're also watching this guy. And at least four commentators this morning have used the word weasel.

And you know, he doesn't look good. And it's something that the defense will get up on cross-examination and make a lot of hay with. And they'll continue to make this guy look slippery, to make him look untrustworthy, and hope that by association, some of the jurors will start to be a little bit skeptical about the D.A.'s case.

So, there's both sort of the substance of the cross and the feeling in the courtroom that you -- you know, you have to be in the room to really get that. But it sounds like it's coming over on the -- on the text screen as well. And that's an important part for the defense to try to get some jurors to be skeptical and perhaps reject portions of the district attorney's case.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, that's an important point because obviously, prosecutors have been questioning Keith Davidson for several hours now. But the defense is going to get their chance to cross-examine him soon, which I was told could take up most of the day. And Davidson is saying he was kind of exasperated as Stormy Daniels was appearing on Jimmy Kimmel because he was learning about it all from Michael Cohen and text messages who was in pants on fire mode, as he described it, as all this was coming out.

They were continuing to text until early in the morning on January 31. Was the prosecution trying to get out with Michael Cohen's kind of state of chaos, and whatever you'd call the pants on fire description, as all of this information is coming out publicly?

KAUFMANN: I assume it's not liar, liar pants on fire. It's a different -- a different pants on fire. You know, so as people have said, one of the things the prosecution needs to do is to bring out some of the negative aspects of their witnesses. Michael Cohen has got a lot of baggage. This is all going to come out eventually.

And as the prosecutor, you want to bring that out first. You don't want the jury to have the sense that you're trying to hide it, that you're, you know, covering up for this witness who you are calling to the witness stand. So, you want to bring all of this out in advance to take the sting out of it.

And the other thing is -- I'm just listening to this, and it almost feels like the direct could be the cross. But the pants on fire, the panic, this is all just more eventually will be used as part of the paring down Michael Cohen's credibility as a witness.

COLLINS: And we're hearing now how Michael Cohen threatened to sue Stormy Daniels many times and Keith Davidson talking about, how he described it as like threading a needle, trying to navigate the parameters of this agreement, which he's refusing to call a hush money agreement. And, Paula Reid, what -- you know, we both covered the Trump White House.

This is January 2018. Donald Trump has been president for a year at this point. He's delivering his first State of the Union address. It just shows that all of this was going on well into when Donald Trump was in the White House when David Pecker was showing up to the White House. Michael Cohen is still handling comms for Donald Trump, even though you know, he was upset that Trump didn't give him a job in the White House.

PAULA REID, CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. It's very chaotic. And what we often see behind the scenes at the Trump Organization or especially in the Trump administration, is that there is chaos. And you don't always have the most adept actors executing things for then-president, now former president.

And what we know here is they're about to completely lose control of Stormy Daniels in about a month from this, this time. She's going to do an interview with Anderson Cooper and admit that yes, all these denials were complete lies. But this chaos has often been a defense against conspiracy, right, that it was so chaotic, that there was no -- there was no way that these people could execute right, design, and execute some sort of vast conspiracy among themselves. So, I think you're going to see the defense attorneys when they have a crack at Davidson, really seize on that, and also the apparent absence of their client in any of these conversations.

COLLINS: I mean, that does seem to be something that Todd Blanche and them -- is a good moment for them to begin their defense -- their cross-examination of him because he's refusing to say it's -- what's at the center of all of this.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think he's going to come back and say -- I think what Davidson is going to say is, look, I wasn't trying to be --

COLLINS: Sorry, Karen, let me just add this before you finish that thought. Keith Davidson characterizes the things Cohen would say to them, including don't f with us, you don't know who you're effing with, things like that. Apologies for everyone who was watching in the middle of the day right now, a lot of F-words in almost every text message it appears that Michael Cohen sent during this period of time.

AGNIFILO: I think -- I think what Davidson is trying to say here is look, I'm not slippery, I'm not slimy, I wasn't trying to be too cute by half. I was trying to not be in violation of the order, of being asked questions and we're trying to respond in a way that didn't violate the order and then unleash the wrath of Michael Cohen on Stormy Daniels. And so, I think that's a slightly different spin on this feeling that oh, he's just a liar. So, we'll see how it plays out on cross.

[11:35:05]

COLLINS: When you're tying it back to Donald Trump saying he wanted her to deny her story to protect his client. His client, of course, the President of the United States.

REID: And that's going to be really important for the prosecutors getting Davidson to make the connection to the defendant that he was actively involved in trying to keep Stormy Daniels quiet because he knew if that story got out, it would be damaging to him.

COLLINS: All roads lead back to Donald Trump. We'll see how effectively the prosecution makes that argument here. Right now, Donald Trump, the former president of the United States is in court listening to all of this. These updates that we're bringing you. He's listening to the supposed details of his sex life and these hush money payments and what happened there. Much more from inside the courtroom after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:41:20]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN SPECIAL LIVE COVERAGE. The court is just taking a break right now. The jury is out of the box. The prosecution just finished its direct examination of Keith Davidson. Keith Davidson, who was at one point, the attorney for adult film actress and director Stormy Daniels, not to mention 1998 Playboy Playmate of the Year Karen McDougal.

Don't F with us, without the asterisks, is now part of the record in Donald Trump's hush money cover-up trial. Those are the words that Michael Cohen said to Davidson, according to Davidson, when Cohen was in Davidson's view, and all -- in an all-out frenzy to try to keep the Stormy Daniels' story quiet. The prosecution has finished its direct examination of this attorney, Keith Davidson, and Trump's team is going to begin their cross-examination after this brief -- break that they're in right now.

I want to review what happened while we were covering other things in a second. But before I do, let's turn to our legal experts and see what they anticipate Trump's lawyers, the defense team, will try to do when they have Keith Davidson on the stamp.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, two things. First of all, Donald Trump's lawyers are going to use Keith Davidson to attack Michael Cohen. And that's already started to happen in the direct examination.

Keith Davidson has already testified that he hated dealing with Michael Cohen that Michael Cohen was outrageously aggressive. Most important, at one point, Keith Davidson says to Michael Cohen's face, I don't believe a word you say to me. So, prosecutors are going to really focus in on that.

The second thing I think they're going to try to get a cross is this is all just a bunch of lying. Liars lying to each other about sex. And that came through with the tail end of Davidson's testimony where he's trying to say, well, it was -- I wouldn't say it's a hush money payment, but it was a payment for her to stay quiet. And while I wouldn't say it was fair because they didn't have romantic feelings.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right.

HONIG: I mean, this is nonsense. All of them are lying to each other. They're lying to the public. And they want the jury to just say, who can sort all this out, this is a bunch of scoundrels, they're all lying to each other, you know, and just wash their hands.

TAPPER: Just one of the exact quotes to get at the parsing that Keith Davidson was in.

HONIG: Yes.

TAPPER: How is it true to say that Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump didn't have a relationship? He said, "Because I don't think that anyone has ever alleged that there was a relationship between Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump, I believe a relationship is an ongoing interaction." Do they actually teach this in law school?

HONIG: No. It takes a holistic view of what --

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: OK.

HONIG: Yes.

TAPPER: What do you think is a -- what do we have coming up here?

WILLIAMS: I did not --

TAPPER: You didn't take that class?

WILLIAMS: I did not take that class. Sounds like a good one but not --

TAPPER: Parsing 101?

WILLIAMS: Parsing 101 is -- 101. No, I actually think the -- nothing to see here normalcy of these types of arrangements or agreements. This whole idea of what we were interacting about was if the language was a consideration in exchange for a contract between parties. That -- we were just talking about payment for an agreement here, not all this business about hush money and falsified records, and so on. So, I think what they do is simply get him to walk through, again, the parameters of the agreement, and just normalize it.

TAPPER: As a former attorney for Donald Trump, would you be relishing this cross, or how would you see this opportunity?

TIM PARLATORE, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: It's not going to be as much fun as Michael Cohen himself. But --

TAPPER: Right. Of course.

PARLATORE: Certainly. I mean, I think that there's a lot of stuff here. And I don't know what the discovery was on this guy. But everything that the prosecution just put out on direct, there's a lot you can work with here. So, I would go and use him to attack Michael Cohen's credibility.

And there's a lot of different angles you can use on that. I would use him to kind of separate Michael Cohen from Donald Trump because there's a lot of things that Cohen apparently is doing on his own, you know, without getting approval from above. And, you know, the parts where Michael Cohen is even saying, you know, say it came from me, not him. So, you can try and use that to separate them. The idea that he -- that Michael Cohen is calling this guy up when Donald Trump goes to D.C. and is complaining about not going down to the White House, you can go into that. I mean, that's crazy to me, the idea that --

TAPPER: Why would you say it to Keith Davidson?

PARLATORE: If you're upset with something your client did to call up opposing counsel and you know, and crime to shoulder, it's just -- it's insane.

WILLIAMS: And you know --

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Wait a minute. Everyone knew that Michael Cohen --

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Well, maybe an insanity claim?

PARLATORE: For a normal attorney, it's insane.

TAPPER: So, this -- let me -- let me just read some quotes to our -- to this side of the table, which is stuff that we missed. Cohen threatened to sue Stormy Daniels many times, Keith Davidson said. He can be a very aggressive guy. Cohen threatened to "reign legal hell down upon her. Don't Eff with us. You don't know who you're effing with, things like that," Davidson said. This is Michael Cohen doing his job, as opposed to using Mr. Davidson to complain.

[11:45:04]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Is there --

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: And my son would say that tracks. I mean, that is --

GANGEL: Yes.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Is there anyone that's ever interacted with Michael Cohen, who hasn't been threatened by Michael Cohen?

BASH: You just took -- you just took the words --

TAPPER: I've never been threatened by Michael Cohen.

BASH: you just took the words out of -- out of my mouth.

TAPPER: I have a very pleasant relationship with him.

BASH: It's not -- and it -- now --

HUNT: So, what?

BASH: But when he was in Donald Trump attack dog mode, that was classic. I mean, you could cut and paste that and put it on the phone of Michael Cohen and hit send and it would look exactly the same to so many reporters --

TAPPER: But is that not his -- was that not his job?

BASH: That's my point.

TAPPER: Yes.

BASH: That's my point is that he was doing that on behalf of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Did you ever get a call from Rahm Emanuel when he was Obama's White House chief of staff?

BASH: I did. I did. And you could hold the phone out of --

TAPPER: Yes.

BASH: Out of here without the speakerphone on.

GANGEL: Can I do say, though? It is clear what the prosecution has done here. I think all three of you will agree. They're trying to inoculate the witness.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yes.

TAPPER: Yes.

GANGEL: They're bringing all of this up ahead of time in front of the jury. And then I assume we will get to some point where they will say the equivalent of the point is what isn't whether or not you like Michael Cohen or he was a jerk, or what. He's not the one who's on trial. And these are the facts. And the documents were falsified.

TAPPER: Kasie?

HUNT: Yes. I mean, I think this again, goes back to what we've been talking about as they've been going through this. And it speaks to what Cohen is doing day by day. The questions about the gag order, it all goes to kind of his credibility and the way that he interacts with Trump and whether this is going to be enough, right? That is this inoculation going to be enough to overcome kind of the vast mountain of evidence that we all have that Michael Cohen has told a lot of lies, seems to be willing to tell lies, and it's hard to trust him, right? I mean, that's the hill they have to climb, no?

PARLATORE: Yes.

TAPPER: The court is in a break right now. We're going to have much more CNN SPECIAL COVERAGE ahead. Stay with us. We're going to squeeze in a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:51:45]

COLLINS: And welcome back to CNN's SPECIAL LIVE COVERAGE. Keith Davidson, the one-time attorney for the adult film actress Stormy Daniels just left the stand as Donald Trump has also left the courtroom. In a few minutes when the judge returns with the jury, Trump's team will get their chance to cross-examine Keith Davidson, obviously going to be something to watch very closely.

Joining me now is criminal defense attorney Bill Brennan who represented Donald Trump's payroll corporation in a tax fraud trial, and Trump himself in his second impeachment trial. And, Mr. Brennan, thanks for being here. And I just -- you wonder, first off what your takeaway was from the closing, questioning, and that line of questions that prosecutors had for Keith Davidson.

WILLIAM BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP PAYROLL CORP. ATTORNEY: Well, good morning, Kaitlan. And thanks for having me. Josh Steinglass was smart to try to get this out at the end of direct to, you know, maybe take the edge off the cross a little bit. These are the types of lawyer witnesses that personify why the general public has a bad taste in his mouth for lawyers.

I mean for this man to get on there and play linguistic gymnastics, saying, well, it really wasn't hush money, it was a consideration, that's like calling a robbery and involuntary loan. I mean, it's all going to come down to believability and credibility. Put yourself in the -- in the place of one of those jurors. And at the end of this, Mr. Blanche is going to get up and he's going to say, look, you know, it comes down to who do you believe of what has the ring of truth?

And let's say you took your 5-year-old daughter down to the skating park and there's little island in the middle. And there's a big sign that says no skating today, thin ice. But Michael Cohen's on the island, and Davidson's on the island and they're saying, come on over, the ice is fine. Would you put your daughter on that thin ice on the good word of Michael Cohen?

And that's the problem here. There's these -- Cohen particularly is a polluted source. And so far, I heard somebody say all roads lead to Donald Trump. No, all roads lead to Cohen.

Cohen is unhinged. He's erratic. He's calling and crying on Davidson's shoulder one day about not getting a job in D.C. and then telling him you don't know who you're effing with. I mean, this is -- this is a witness that the defense will have great fodder with on cross.

COLLINS: Those are two strong analogies back-to-back. If you're Todd Blanche, or whichever Trump attorney is going to handle the cross- examination here, what's your first question right out of the gate for Keith Davidson when he's back on the witness stand?

BRENNAN: You didn't believe Cohen, so why should this jury? I mean -- (INAUDIBLE)

COLLINS: And if he says -- you know, what -- he was -- when he -- when he -- when he said he didn't believe Michael Cohen, I was in there. That was that specific line of questioning where Cohen kept basically delaying when they were going to wire the money for Stormy Daniels.

He was saying, well, it's Jewish holidays. The banks are closed. Trump's campaigning in five different states. He was saying, you know, I didn't believe his excuses about why he couldn't pay me.

BRENNAN: Well, again, you know, we can drill it down into sets and subsets, but he didn't believe him. And that's huge for the defense. Cohen has a conviction for lying to Congress. He's a convicted felon. He's a polluted source. And Davidson was -- Davidson should have embraced the hush money payments.

[11:55:11]

He said yes, it was hush money. That's what -- that's what it was for, to try to dance around that and say, well, was it romantic? I don't know if that was romantic. It was really consideration. It leaves a bad taste in the fact-finders' mouths.

COLLINS: Well, and prosecutors really tried to drill down on just how unbelievable the denials from Stormy Daniels were. How memorable of a moment do you think that will be for the jury potentially?

BRENNAN: Well, I mean, think about it, Kaitlan. You're going to have Cohen, a convicted liar. You've got Davidson, who's doing Fred Astaire all over the dictionary. And now you'll have Miss Clifford, who's on video on some late-night show saying that never happened.

I mean, sure, you've got three people that lied at some point, whether it's macro or micro. They've been liars at some point. At least two of the three. So, I think that there's a lot to work with the -- with the jury.

And the crucial point here, too, is even if all this happened, and even if -- and I don't think the prosecution is tied it directly to the defendant yet. But even if they do with other witnesses, or with other means, unless it's shown to be in furtherance of another crime, they don't get the felony.

COLLINS: Bill Brennan, the giant, thank you very much for many of those analogies that you squeezed in there those few minutes. I should note. The judge, the jury, the defendant, the witness all back in the courtroom now as the cross-examination of Keith Davidson is going to start in just moments. We will bring you all of those updates live here on CNN SPECIAL LIVE COVERAGE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)