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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Defense Cross-Examines Former Lawyer For Stormy Daniels. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST & CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back to CNN special live coverage of Donald Trump hush money cover up trial. Cross examination is just getting underway for a critical witness. This is Keith Davidson, the former attorney for adult film star and director Stormy Daniels as well as 1998 Playboy Playmate of the Year Karen McDougal.

Mr. Davidson being questioned by Trump attorney Emil Bove. Davidson just confirmed for the jury that he has never had any interactions directly with Donald Trump, the former president of the United States. CNN reporters inside the courtroom, telling us that Trump is staring at the witness as he answer questions -- answers questions from Donald Trump's attorney.

Joining us now in studio is Michael Cohen's former attorney -- former Lanny Davis to answer some of our questions. First of all, Lanny, thanks so much for being here. Appreciate it. Have you spoken with Michael Cohen recently at all?

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER ATTORNEY TO MICHAEL COHEN: Last week or so, yes.

TAPPER: And how's he doing? How's he feels the trial is gone?

DAVIS: I think he's feeling the pressure, but still waits to tell the truth as he did when we first met, when we decided to work together.

TAPPER: If you listen closely, you can hear Trump's attorneys salivating to do cross examination against Michael Cohen. Is he ready?

DAVIS: Not only is he ready, but the salvation is to his credit. All the low expectations about his lying and going to prison being a perjury. And all those words were used when Michael testified in front of a congressional committee where the rules of evidence weren't applying. And he was on national and international television.

The first words he said to the Republicans, I'd be interested in my fellow attorneys. What you would do on cross examination with this is -- I am ashamed of what I did. I'm here to tell the truth. I don't expect you to believe me. But I'm here to do an own what I did for Donald Trump.

So, this witness when he testifies, I am sure is going to say, yes, I lied. And yes, I did wrong in many cases for Donald Trump, but I own that. Now I'm telling the truth. And it will be up to the jury to decide whether he's credible. The people who cross examine him, of course, will try to suggest that he's not credible.

TAPPER: So right now, just so -- just to tell you what's going on inside the courtroom. Right now, Emil Bove who is Donald Trump's attorney is getting Keith Davidson to talk about the deal -- the hush money deal with Karen McDougal, the Playboy Playmate of the Year from 1998. And she said that the deal $150,000 and she doesn't have to talk about her relationship with Donald Trump was her quote, dream deal.

There was ongoing value in her image and likeness right, Bove asked. Yes, Davidson said. Davidson confirmed that he did not speak with Michael Cohen about the Karen McDougal deal to separate deal until after it was closed. Dana?

DANA BASH, CNN HOST & CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Lanny, good to see you. You talked about the testimony that Michael Cohen is going to give. But the other question, you know, I remember you -- when you worked with him saying that you do have the receipts, meaning it's not just what he says, it's what he can show.

And what we're seeing this morning is the Trump defense trying to separate what Michael Cohen was doing from Donald Trump's direction. Just Cohen have the ability to say, this wasn't me freelancing, this was at his direction?

DAVIS: Well, he certainly will say that --

BASH: I mean, to show it.

DAVIS: To show it. The case is documented for everything that Michael says. And the documents are emails and text messages from others, not from Mr. Trump. And I always start when I'm doing these interviews that Mr. Trump is an innocent man until he's proven guilty under our system. So, everything I say today, certainly with the knowledge of the gag order, but respect to the gag order.

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Is that everything I say is left up to a jury to decide. My ultimate answer to the attacks by the cross-examination are doing their job. It's up to the jury to use common sense to answer your question. In the documentation of what Michael says will be part of the establishment that what he's saying now even if he lied in the past is documented and the jury just may believe.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Lanny, did you talk to Michael Cohen recently about his decision to come out and say, I'm not going to attack Mr. Trump anymore? While this is going on as these gag order back and forth have been happening. Do you think he understands there's potentially repercussions for him if he keeps doing that?

DAVIS: So, you know, I hate not answering questions. I can definitely answer the question that we have discussed this subject. And you'll probably see not the results for my advice. But you will probably see him showing more caution and anything --

HUNT: And you think that's the right idea?

DAVIS: I've certainly -- I'm not again going to tell you my advice, but -- and I'm no longer acting as his attorney. But yes, I think you'll see a different course of conduct.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Could I just quickly ask about the receipts, as you say, and you pointed out the emails and text messages are not with Donald Trump. They are with others. When you talk about the jury's decision and common sense. But the bar here is beyond a reasonable doubt. You know, what's in those emails and text messages. Do you think they make the case beyond a reasonable doubt?

DAVIS: So, the answer is yes. But it will be up to a jury to use its common sense. I can't predict what a jury will do. And I respect the jury system, whether it's for me or against me. But I do think based on what I know, I've been in the room for three years with Michael Cohen. This case was being prepared.

And even before this particular case, the previous case on financial fraud that Mr. Bragg decided not to bring. I know that Michael is backed up in everything that he says by other witnesses. Mr. Pecker, if for example, Michael will simply corroborate what Mr. Pecker said.

And it will be up to the jury on the testimony involving Mr. Trump and himself and nobody else, whether Mr. Cohen should be believed, or if Mr. Trump takes the stand and he denies whether Mr. Trump should be believed. And I'll leave that up to the jury.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: And Lanny, I'm sure that Michael Cohen and the prosecution will offer exactly the narrative that you just described, which is Michael Cohen did what he did back then when he was with Donald Trump. He committed a lot of crimes. Now he's come clean. And he has done that, as you know effectively before.

But part of the problem for Michael Cohen is the narrative that I only ever committed crimes for Donald Trump is not true. He pled guilty to tax fraud and bank fraud, having nothing to do with Donald Trump and now --

TAPPER: Having to do with the taxi medallion, right?

HONIG: Exactly, his own business. He's a taxicab medallion lawyer. So, he pled guilty in federal court to those two crimes in 2018. Now, he testified at the civil fraud trial a couple of months ago. He said, I actually did not commit those crimes. I actually lied under oath in front of Judge Pauley in federal court, when I pled guilty. So, did he commit tax fraud and bank fraud? Or did he lie to Judge Pauley?

DAVIS: So again, I can't -- sorry, I can't answer the factual questions of this.

TAPPER: Do you no longer represents him?

DAVIS: Not only that as Elie wouldn't answer your question. Did your client --

TAPPER: But I think his argument is he only pleaded guilty to those crimes because they were threatening to his wife.

DAVIS: Let me answer your question, Elie. His lawyer, who's a great lawyer. I'm sure you know, Danya Perry, a former prosecutor has said publicly. So, I'm safe quoting, his lawyer, that he testified to the commission of those tax crimes because he was coerced because his wife was threatened with an indictment on a Friday night to be announced on Monday morning. And so, he had to -- and what his lawyer has said, say something to the court. That was not true. And he's going to pay for that.

HONIG: Just a quick follow up. Does he say the same thing about the campaign finance crimes that he pled guilty to the same day? Does he said, I pled guilty to those only because I was pressured or because I actually committed those.

DAVIS: So, I'll just let the public record speak that the crimes that he pled guilty to and didn't go to trial is he didn't even get a chance to talk to the prosecutors. On Friday night, his attorney said, on Monday morning you and your wife will be indicted, including five counts of tax fraud. And he just had no choice, according to Danya Perry, to say yes to them.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, more than anything else, I'm just truly curious as to how the jury will see all of this only because the narrative that I was lying to protect Donald Trump or engaging in behavior at his direction. Yes, it helps Michael Cohen somewhat but there's still lies.

And I think, you know, it can both be true that he has a compelling reason for behaving the way he did, or even that the receipts support the things that he says. But I think any defense attorney worth their salt can really undermine -- this is more a statement in the form of a question than anything else. But I think any defense attorney worth their salt can really undermine everything he says here.

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DAVIS: So, of course, you're saying something that might be the case for this jury.

WILLIAMS: Right.

DAVIS: But there are some very checkered past defendants in it, rather witnesses in organized crime cases that have a lot of apologizing to do for the murders and other things that they committed. Yet, they become the chief witnesses for the prosecution.

TAPPER: So, let me interrupt for one second. I apologize. Just because what's going on in court is significant. Right now, Emil Bove, who is Donald Trump's attorney is talking to Keith Davidson. The attorney for Stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal, Michael Cohen. And Bove is zeroing in our call that Davidson had with Michael Cohen in December 2016. Davidson testifies of Cohen, quote, I thought he was going to kill himself. This is because Cohen had thought he was going to get a job in the Trump White House, the Trump administration. And he did not get that. We know that Michael Cohen was frustrated by that from Davidson's previous testimony. But this is the first time we've ever heard Keith Davidson express that he was convinced of Michael Cohen's being so distraught as to actually be in the realm of self-harm.

And Lanny Davis, this is obviously being cited as an example -- being brought forward as an example of Cohen's instability, his rashness. Davidson says, Cohen had times -- at times talked with him about being Trump's chief of staff or attorney general. I don't know if you have any thoughts on this, but you know Michael Cohen better than the rest of us.

DAVIS: First of all, that's an opinion testimony by a lawyer.

TAPPER: Right.

DAVIS: It's not necessarily a fact. And secondly, no, I'm not going to comment on that. I know Michael is going to tell the truth. And it'll be up to the jury, given those kinds of assertions, whether he's believable. And I think the key question for everybody watching is whatever Michael Cohen did in the past -- when he testifies, will the jury use common sense and reach a conclusion that what he's testifying to at this moment is backed up and is true. And it will be up to them to decide.

TAPPER: And by the way just to -- we know attorneys are approaching the bench because Steinglass, the prosecutor has objected, probably based on what you just said. This is opinion testimony and he's not qualified. Mr. Davidson to render a psychological analysis or opinion.

WILLIAMS: I was just going to say, it's not -- it's not just evidence of someone's rashness or behavior, but also his motivation for going after the defendant, because that's evidence of his having a beef with the defendant and a bias that would get in the way of his testimony and make him want to testify.

TAPPER: There is no dispute that Michael Cohen has a beef with Donald --

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

TAPPER: Right. And no one would disagree with that.

WILLIAMS: No one would, but the defense has to put that on the record. They're going to put that on the record now and then really push going on it when they cross examine.

DAVIS: I remind everybody that documents don't lie, and tapes don't lie. There is a audio tape of Mr. Trump. And I'll let the jury decide what the interpretation of that audio tape is. I've heard it many times. I was on this particular CNN show in the evening when that tape disbursed. So, we're going to --

TAPPER: Remind us what the tape says?

DAVIS: The tape has Mr. Trump and Michael Cohen talking about the payment of $150,000 to Ms. McDougal. And there's a word that was attributed to Michael incorrectly that was used by Trump on tape about, you mean in cash. So that's a tape that speaks for itself, his ways of addressing the tape critically. But the jury will hear all the evidence and we have to depend on Michael Cohen.

TAPPER: All right, fascinating stuff. Right now, it's Donald Trump's defense team's chance to poke holes in the prosecution's narrative. Emil Bove, Trump's attorney is currently cross-examining Keith Davidson, Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal's attorney. Much more on CNN special live coverage in just minutes. Thanks so much for watching. We'll be right back.

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KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump looking as the witness Keith Davidson and his attorney Emil Bove. As Emil Bove is cross-examining that former attorney for the adult film actress Stormy Daniels. This is CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial. And Trump's attorney is now asking Keith Davidson a series of questions about Michael Cohen and his state of mind. And the former president's fixers pattern of behavior as he is on the witness stand. The cross- examination is now underway.

We are getting updates from inside the courtroom as of this moment. And Trump's attorney is suggesting that Keith Davidson was careful not to threaten the payments. Those two eventually went to Stormy Daniels be made prior to the election. Keith Davidson says, he doesn't remember this.

And Karen, as we're looking at this line of questioning. Essentially, what Emil Bove is asking Keith Davidson is if he was trying to make sure to avoid the appearance of extortion. As he was negotiating this payment, getting this money from Michael Cohen to his client Stormy Daniels. What do you make of this line of questioning that that they've started with?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, there's always the concern, if you're negotiating one of these deals on behalf of a client that you could be or there could be an insinuation of extortion because in essence, they want to get that issue out in front of the jury because it is kind of a form of extortion, right?

Pay me or I'm going to go forward. It's legal. It's lawful because you're using an attorney and you're not actually saying those words, that it's this or that. And so, all lawyers are really careful to do that when you're negotiating those.

[12:20:00] So, I'm not really sure why Davidson isn't admitting that because you have to be careful of that when you are negotiating these types of deals. But that's what they're trying to show. Just to plant that seed in front of the jury because that's what they're going to argue, that look, Donald Trump was being extorted. It's right before the election. They paid -- Michael Cohen paid it off --

COLLINS: And they're really drilling down on this because Trump's attorney just asked Keith Davidson again. Keith Davidson is the man who was acting as Stormy Daniels' attorney at this time to say that in 2016, he was going quote, right up to the line without committing extortion. Davidson responded and said, I don't understand the question.

Paula, I mean, we knew that they were going to get on here and essentially make Keith Davidson looked bad as he was negotiating these deals and had been commenting on how little money they believe Trump had. How stingy he was with it. And that line of questioning.

PAULA REID, CNN'S CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: And he also set this up because he talked about how interest in his clients Stormy Daniels story had kind of waned until the Access Hollywood tape is released. And then suddenly there's this surge of interest. So, he admitted on the stand during direct, right? She knew this was her opportunity to potentially make money.

And of course, he's applying a lot of pressure on Michael Cohen to get this money. He also knows there's an incentive to pay him before the election. So, it is a fine line. And like I said earlier, we knew that the defense attorneys were going to seize on that.

COLLINS: And one thing that's interesting is Trump's demeanor as this is happening because earlier, he was kind of doing that thing that he did -- when I was in there where he's kind of closes his eyes for a sustained period of time. He's not sleeping. He's just -- almost not listening. When Keith Davidson took the stand, and it was Trump's attorney to do the questioning. We're told by reporters in the room, Trump was looking at Keith Davidson.

REID: Yeah. I'm sure he wants to hear the answers to this. These are also probably easier for him to hear because these are things that could be good for his case. Issues that they are raising. And there's probably a part of him that at some level may feel that this was extortion, quite different than what the prosecutors are alleging here.

And here Davidson agrees that he knew in 2016, he had to be careful, not to violate the law, prohibiting extortion because Karen just said, he's aware that there's a line and he's trying not to cross it.

COLLINS: And we also have Brian Ketcham joining us. A white collar and criminal defense attorney who I should know used to represent Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort, who was there. As you know, a lot of this was happening and about to -- potentially about to break as they were trying to keep it out of the public eye. Brian, right now, where Trump's attorneys are going with this line of questioning. I'm curious for your take, because Keith Davidson has just confirmed as they're talking about how common NDA agreements are non-disclosure agreements. He confirms in 2012, he was investigated for extortion in connection with a situation involving Hulk Hogan.

BRIAN KETCHAM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it's a fascinating testimony. And I think it's fascinating to the extent that you -- the viewers here in the public, that people following this trial are getting real insight sometimes into how the sausage is made, if you will, between lawyers, particularly in a pre -- a pre complaint, a pre lawsuit situation -- because it -- let's be real about it. It's a little bit like extortion. I'll see you and this will be a public lawsuit, or you can pay me, and it won't be a lawsuit.

And so, the text messages between Mr. Cohen and Mr. Davidson are fascinating to me. It's a reminder to myself to be careful what I say in text messages. And it's fascinating to see the line, the line you were just talking about between settlement negotiations, NDA and extortion. And so that's been fascinating testimony.

COLLINS: And what's happening right now, Brian? This update says, he has been asked by Trump's attorney. You've never linked these negotiations to the 2016 election with anyone. Is that your testimony? Keith Davidson, you know, to this line of questioning is pushing back. He's saying, yes. I made sure this was when the guidelines, said it wasn't extortion. But he seems to be pushing back on this line of questioning from Trump's attorneys.

KETCHAM: I think that's to be expected. No lawyer is going to -- want to be -- wanting to be insinuated that they engage in extortion. And, you know, this case isn't really about whether or not there was extortion. This case was whether or not, you know, there was -- there was a crime committed by the former president. But Mr. Trump's lawyers and their excellent lawyers are doing exactly what they should be doing, which is basically putting Mr. Davidson on trial.

COLLINS: Yeah. And Keith Davidson, of course, is not the defendant here. The defendant is seated in there. We're told he is paying much closer attention to Davidson's testimony than he was -- when it was the prosecution questioning Keith Davidson. And now that its Trump's attorneys questioning him.

I wonder where you believe that they're going after this line of questioning about extortion. What do you think would be a natural next step for the defense team as they're expecting to spend a significant chunk of time questioning Keith Davidson?

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KETCHAM: I think they're going to just hammer this point over and over and over again. And I think that's the right strategy. I think it might get a little bit have repetitive, but I think that is what you want the jury to really take away. And you want his credibility to be an open question and you want his credibility to be challenged over and over and over again. And I think it's an appropriate strategy and the strategy I would do.

COLLINS: Well, and I'll know, Keith Davidson, I was watching as he first took the stand on Tuesday. And he was a pretty compelling witness in the sense of describing these interactions that he had with Michael Cohen. He was saying it was clear to him. He had to kind of reconcile a statement with the prosecution before they finished earlier.

Two days ago, he said, it was clear to him that the source of the funds ultimately it was going to be from Donald J. Trump. Today, he was saying that he believed it was Michael Cohen's money and the prosecution kind of well said -- well, you know, that's not what you argued to us or what you've testified to us on Tuesday.

KETCHAM: Right. You got to rehabilitate your witness with that in sort of inconsistency. So, I understand why they did that. And it's difficult though to change your statement in front of a jury.

COLLINS: Yeah. We'll see what the jury makes of that. They have been paying very close attention. Brian Ketcham, thank you for joining us. And we are now learning that Trump's attorney is pressing Keith Davidson on whether he helped someone get paid in connection with that story.

They're talking about a Lindsay Lohan story and a TMZ story about her, Paula Reid. I wasn't quite expecting Lindsay Lohan to get brought up at the first criminal trial of a former president. But here we are.

REID: Yeah. Well, not on my bingo card either. But clearly, they're trying to establish Davidson as being a bit of an opportunist, right? This is the game he plays. This is how he makes money profiting off of this tabloid culture. And people were in a situation like Lindsay Lohan, not in a very vulnerable position. And it appears that they're now going through other instances as well. I think we're going to hear a lot of other really surprising names about to come up.

COLLINS: What's the point of bringing up Hulk Hogan and Lindsay Lohan. I mean, what is the pattern that Trump's attorneys, Karen, do you believe are trying to establish here with this line of question?

FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: I think they're trying to dirty up Keith Davidson and make him look like he's somebody who goes out and extorts people on behalf of his clients, right? And I think what he's --

COLLINS: And he keeps answering. I don't recall to six questions so far from Emil Bove.

FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: I mean, of course, you're going to remember whether or not you represented a celebrity like Lindsay Lohan or Hulk Hogan, or whoever they're talking about. That doesn't -- that's the kind of thing that they're going to be able to say, oh, come on, this guy is a liar. It's not like they're talking about someone you don't know. You're going to remember if this person you represented or that you were involved in was a particular celebrity. And once again, they're going to try to paint Donald Trump as the victim of extortion and victim of political persecution.

COLLINS: But isn't that -- isn't this Keith Davidson thing? I mean, you can go look at Keith Davidson's website right now. I just looked at it the other day and he has pictures of a lot of the celebrities that he has represented. And Karen McDougal's picture was on there for a time. I don't know if it still is. She was unhappy with the fact that was on there. I mean, this is kind of Keith Davidson's lane. That's why people went to him. And he was connected with people like Stormy Daniels.

REID: Yeah. And Trump's lawyers here are arguing that you weren't trying to secure a great deal unnecessarily for your client to do the best thing by her. You were trying to get as much money, not only for yourself in addition to your client. When you knew someone in this case, then candidate Trump was in an especially vulnerable position may go back to his director where he talked about. How he news Stormy Daniels' story was suddenly more valuable after Access Hollywood tape.

And while he says that he testified here on cross that no one talked directly about it as impacting the election. They do later on in the transaction. There are those text messages. Now the defense has moved on to. Here we go. Davidson's work with clients who are paid by Charlie Sheen, asking whether he took steps that cause Sheen to pay his client.

Again, bringing up more examples of how Davidson may have targeted people for money. We asserted there were some tortious activity committed and valid settlements that were expected. Now the defense attorney jabs at Davidson, your memory seems a little fuzzy around some of these issues. You and Karen were just talking about that, how he keep saying, I cannot recall.

So now, I'm only undermining his credibility just in terms of the type of work he did. And whether it was extortion. But also, the fact that he's not being completely upfront about exactly how some of these deals with other celebrities came to extortion.

COLLINS: I mean, this is getting to be a really testy line of questioning, not that we thought it was going to be all roses and angels or fairies, whatever you want to say. I mean, Davidson is responding that he's had 1500 clients, that these issues were from many years ago. He's trying to defend himself.

And also, Trump's attorney was asking him about -- supposed 90-day bar suspension that Keith Davidson was under. Keith Davidson said, he did not recall that, and Trump's attorneys seem to be skeptical of that. Trump's attorney says quote, we're both lawyers. I'm not here to play lawyer games with you. The judge -- Judge Merchan sustains an objection to that remark. I mean this is getting contentious.

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