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CNN Live Event/Special
Now: Defense Cross-Examines Former Lawyer For Stormy Daniels. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired May 02, 2024 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:30:00]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Keith Davidson said he did not recall that and Trump's attorneys seem to be skeptical of that. Trump's attorney says, quote, "We're both lawyers. I'm not here to play lawyer games with you." The judge, Judge Merchan sustains an objection to that remark. I mean, this is getting contentious.
KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, all they're trying to do here -- and it's quite effective -- is if they can make him out to be shady, and someone not to believe than any points that the prosecution scored with this witness, they're going to say, you can't believe him, either.
He's another liar. He's shady. He says he doesn't remember these things. Of course, you're going to remember if you negotiated something on behalf of a celebrity, or that you were suspended, your bar license was suspended. Any lawyer would remember that.
So he's not like he's saying, no, it didn't happen, right? He's saying I don't recall. And that is -- that's going to be something that the jury is going to shake their head and say, I'm not sure we can believe this guy.
COLLINS: And Davidson is pushing back saying I'm giving you truthful answers that I'm not going to discuss confidential answers, check it out the Trump -- or the client-attorney privilege. I mean, I think it's important to keep in mind here that what Trump's team knows, their only gold they have in mind, they just need one juror --
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
COLLINS: -- to essentially side with them here.
REID: That's exactly right. And I think you're going to see them do this with many of the witnesses. I mean, the idea that you can't talk about certain aspects of agreements because of your duty to your former client. OK, but not remembering a bar suspension.
Now, attorneys are approaching the bench talking to the judge for a sidebar after the defense attorney asked the judge to instruct Davidson to answer a question about whether he remembers Charlie Sheen paying his clients. We'll see what the judge does here. COLLINS: It also -- it seems to be going back to the David Pecker tactic. The technique that Trump's attorneys use. They are where -- they brought up Mark Wahlberg. They brought up Arnold Schwarzenegger. They were basically saying this is something that rich people do. This is commonplace. Now they're bringing up Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohan, Hulk Hogan as well.
FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: Davidson is in a bit of a -- between a rock and a hard place because he -- these -- if he did do these things on behalf of his clients, it's to sign NDAs. He is under not only an attorney- client privilege, but a contractual obligation to not reveal these things on the stand, yet he's being asked these questions.
He shouldn't be saying, I don't recall. He should be saying, I can't answer that question or attorney-client privilege or something. But to say, I don't recall isn't really being honest or truthful potentially, if that's -- it seems to be where they're going with this.
COLLINS: Yes. We are watching Trump's attorneys now cross examining Keith Davidson. You're trying to undermine the credibility of someone who could be a critical witness for the prosecution. We're watching all of it very closely inside a courtroom that is turning quite hostile right now.
Much more with CNN's special live coverage ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:37:30]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Mr. Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, and the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, is paying close attention in court today as his lawyers cross examine a key prosecution witness.
Our reporters inside the courtroom tell us that Mr. Trump is leaning forward. His chair turned toward the witness stand. You're watching CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial.
Trump's attorneys right now are trying to destroy the credibility of this witness. His name is Keith Davidson. He's the one time lawyer for adult film actress and director Stormy Daniels and 1998 Playboy Playmate of the Year, Karen McDougal, both of whom were allegedly paid hush money for keeping quiet about their liaison with Mr. Trump, alleged liaison. Mr. Trump denies them.
Trump's attorney, Emil Bove, is right now running the jury through a laundry list of clients with whom Davidson dealt on a routine basis. Ones that perhaps to some witnesses, to some jury members, to some of you out there, are somewhat seedy situations. Bringing up the Davidson was at one point suspended from the bar and getting Davidson to answer, I don't recall at least half a dozen times.
All right. So, let us tiptoe through the tulips of Mr. Davidson's client list here. If we can just to help illustrate what exactly the defense is getting at. They talk about -- Bove asked Davidson about a TMZ story regarding Lindsay Lohan's treatment at a rehab facility. Hulk Hogan's sex tape.
He's bringing up Davidson's work related to a Tila -- Tia (ph) -- is it Tia? Tila Tequila sex tape.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tila.
TAPPER: Tila Tequila sex tape. And his work with a man that Bove referred to as a, quote, "sex tape broker." The first time I have used that phrase in my entire life. Bove bringing up a $2 million payment made to Davidson's client from Charlie Sheen.
Davidson says, "I don't recall to that." Bove jabs at Davidson, "Your memory seems a little fuzzy around some of these issues." They're going in and out of issues like this. Bove pushing Davidson to discuss Sheen's settlement with a woman named Capri Anderson, and on and on.
What is the point of all this? I mean, anyone is entitled to an attorney, and it seems like Mr. Davidson has created a niche firm for himself.
HONIG: For sure. Two points. One visceral, one technical. The visceral point is Donald Trump's lawyers want the jury to be disgusted --
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
HONIG: -- by this guy. They want the jury to be disgusted Repelled by Keith Davidson, by Stormy Daniels, by Karen McDougal. And they want to make the point that this happened because Keith Davidson, they're going to argue, is an opportunist.
[12:40:07]
And this is the technical point. The timing is important here. The alleged affairs with both McDougal and Stormy Daniels happened a decade before.
TAPPER: 2005 and 2006.
HONIG: Right.
TAPPER: Or 2006 -2007.
HONIG: Right. And one of the arguments the prosecutor is going to make is, gee, why would Donald Trump and Michael Cohen only care about paying them off in September and October of 2016? Ten years later, the answer they're going to say is because the election was looming.
TAPPER: Right.
HONIG: But the counter to that is going to be, the reason they paid in September and October 2016 is because that's when this opportunist, I'll say it nicely, pounced and came to us in a threatening way the way he did with many other clients. I think that's where prosecutor -- where Trump's lawyers are going with this. WILLIAMS: You know, and I think something prosecutors like to say is this lofty moral point is that you don't -- we did not pick the witnesses here. The defendant did. And this is just who we're with and we're building our case around.
Well, defense attorneys rightly pounce on that is sort of empty moralizing because look, no, these are pretty rotten guys. And I think there are -- the defense can't say the words porn star and sex tape enough because it distracts the jury from the mechanics of how contracts are structured and what counts as consideration and so on.
If you make the defense -- pardon me -- if you make the jury think about sex tapes and porn stars and this sort of distasteful man who's broken it at all, it hurts the prosecution.
TAPPER: And somehow, we have managed to make it through 44 or 43, rather, previous presidents that never had any reason to deal with a man like Keith Davidson, an attorney like Keith Davidson.
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: That we know of.
KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: That we know of.
TAPPER: That we know him. That we know him. That's right.
WILLIAMS: The good ones you don't find everywhere (ph).
TAPPER: Good -- no, it's an excellent point. But is there not also a risk here of saying, yes, we are discussing an adult film star and director and Playboy Playmate of the year and a guy who brokers deals for the likes of Hulk Hogan and Capri Anderson, whoever that is, et cetera, et cetera. But guess what? That's the world of Donald Trump. That's not the world of Michael Cohen.
GANGEL: I would --
TAPPER: That's the argument I'm saying.
GANGEL: I would stipulate that the jurors know about the Access Hollywood tape by this time. I am not sure that Donald Trump's reputation in 2024 is going to be a big surprise to them. They know this. I think the other thing that is -- they're doing here is in crosses, they're normalizing this kind of behavior deal.
And they're saying, look, all of these other people have done this. All of these celebrities have done this. And guess what? None of them were running for president. A lot of people do this for other reasons.
WILLIAMS: Also, when selecting the jury, an important series of questions were, what are your politics? What do you know about Donald Trump and so on? Because it's not relevant to the jury, they would not have asked the jury, what do you know about Charlie Sheen or Tila Tequila or Hulk Hogan?
And there are probably jurors who are disgusted by the nature of this conduct here, but it's perfectly fair game for them to be asked about and, you know, sort of prey on biases that the jurors have.
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Right. I mean, obviously, the burden of proof and the burden that the prosecutors have when all is said and done is to convince the jury that maybe this is normal behavior for a celebrity. And in this case Donald Trump equals Charlie Sheen equals, you know, whoever else was involved in this -- with this broker, but that's not what he used it for. He used it to help his election.
TAPPER: So one of the other things that the defense is bringing up when it comes to Keith Davidson is the whole legality when it comes to his business of, to simplify it in the way that the defense is characterizing it. Oh, look at this really awful thing I have. It would be a shame if I released this to the public.
Maybe you and I can have some sort of deal and how is that different from extortion. And right now Emil Bove is noting that Mr. Davidson was involved in Hulk Hogan tape coverage. Remember, there was a sex tape Regarding Hulk Hogan sex tapes.
Bove asking if the experience with all of this gave him familiarity with extortion law. "Perhaps, I don't know," Davidson says. But just to recap over what was going on, Davidson confirmed that investigators were in close proximity, listening to his conversations with Hulk Hogan's representatives.
Bove shows Davidson a report from the Tampa Police Department related to the investigation. And apparently there were concerns expressed about extortion in the report. Though Davidson notes, I was never charged with anything. This is the context by which Bove asks, did this experience give him familiarity with extortion law.
[12:45:05]
And again, Kasie Hunt, put on your juror hat right now, if you would. I don't have an actual physical one, but an imaginary one, if you would.
HUNT: Just bring one next time, Jake.
TAPPER: And I will next time. I'll order one from Amazon. And just if you're sitting in the jury, what are you thinking as you -- as the defense is talking to this guy about his business that also, you know, got him into proximity to the world of Donald Trump.
HUNT: I'll be honest, Jake. I'm kind of thinking, what is any of this? And how did we get here as a country? Like, I mean, what do you even do with all of this? I mean, my current question is, you know, the extortion law. I'm curious from --
HONIG: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
HUNT: -- your guys perspectives, what is extortion --
WILLIAMS: It's a fine line. HUNT: -- on this situation.
WILLIAMS: It is sort of using force or threat to extract something from someone else. Well, what are these types of arrangements? Well, you're extracting something for money. But is there a threat involved? And there is actually a fine line and that's -- the defense is threading this needle quite well by saying that, wait a second, you're talking about threatening someone, getting money for them and having them not do something. How's that not extortion?
And I think for exactly the point you're making Kasie, it's sort of planning in the juror's head that this is, if not illegal, sort of flirting with the line and stepping up to the line. And he even says there were questions about whether I might've been charged, but no, I wasn't. Everything --
TAPPER: I wasn't charged and Trump's attorney right now, Emil Bove, circling back to Karen McDougal, Karen McDougal, the 1998 Playboy Playmate of the Year, who alleges that she had a 10 to 11-month long relationship between 2006 and 2007 with Donald Trump.
Trump's attorneys now highlighting what some might call sordid dealings of this prosecution witness, including that he was targeted by an FBI sting operation.
We're going to have much more from our reporters inside the courtroom, giving us all these real-time updates during this cross examination. You're watching CNN Special Live Coverage. We're going to squeeze in a very quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[12:51:38]
TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money cover up trial. Tila Tequila, Hulk Hogan, Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohan, all names I'm not sure any of us had on our Donald Trump trial bingo card setting until today. But all names we have heard on cross examination as the defense attorneys for Donald Trump tried to undermine the credibility of a key prosecution witness.
One man named Keith Davidson. Davidson, the one-time attorney for both adult film actors and star Stormy Daniels and Playboy 1998 Playmate of the Year, Karen McDougal. And it is Karen McDougal's deal that they are going through right now. Emil Bove, the Trump attorney talking to Keith Davidson, Karen McDougal, and Stormy Daniels' attorney about the deal.
Bove asking Davidson about the settlement deal he tried to negotiate. Someone seeking $100 million from Manny --
HONIG: Pacquiao.
TAPPER: Pacquiao. Anyway, moving on. Davidson says when Trump was ascending in the polls, a former friend of Karen McDougal attempted to publicize McDougal's alleged almost yearlong affair in the press. Bove returns to how Davidson retained Karen McDougal as a client noting he was referred by her brother-in-law, Davidson's former client.
Bove questioning Davidson about how McDougal's brother-in-law and another man who provided security were paid in the agreement. They're going into this.
Again, we have heard from previous testimony that Karen McDougal actually did not want her story out there, but she did also want money.
HONIG: Perfect solution for somebody who --
TAPPER: Yes.
HONIG: -- does not want to tell her story, but wants to get paid. This line of cross examination goes to the question of who started it. And what Trump's lawyers are trying to establish now is this was not Donald Trump and Michael Cohen contacting Karen McDougal or Stormy Daniels saying, hey, we got this election coming up. We need you to be quiet.
It happened the other way around that McDougal through this network, including this lawyer, Keith Davidson, including her brother-in-law, they approached the Trump people and said, we've got this thing that might be an issue for you. And that's how this started. That matters to the jury. It also matters in terms of who chose this timing right before the election.
BASH: But isn't ultimately the question not so much about McDougal, but about Stormy Daniels --
HONIG: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BASH: -- when it comes to the question of whether or not he was trying to hide something --
HONIG: Yes.
BASH: -- because of his election --
HONIG: Very important point. The charge is here. Do not relate to Karen McDougal --
BASH: Exactly.
HONIG: -- the payments to Karen McDougal. The charges relate to the payments to Stormy Daniels. The one leads directly into the next. McDougal -- the payments to McDougal lead timewise within days into the deal with Stormy Daniels.
WILLIAMS: And I would just add one more thing to that, that Stormy Daniels also comes forward publicly with her story. And something I'm certain the defense will point out is that, well, this is another person who has an incentive to come up and speak forward and whether it's make a buck off of this or just attack the defendant. And it sort of speaks to her credibility a little bit and I think it's something they'll pick on her about.
TAPPER: The Karen McDougal case is an interesting one because it does contrast with the Stormy Daniels case. Stormy Daniels case was -- first of all, Donald Trump denies them both. We should note that up front. Stormy Daniels case is an alleged interlude of ours if --
HUNT: To the point that they're trying to say that she was denying an affair and that was --
TAPPER: Right.
HUNT: -- a correct --
TAPPER: Right.
HUNT: That she was not lying in that statement because she wasn't denying -- there wasn't an affair I think lost --
TAPPER: Whatever. There wasn't a relationship.
HUNT: They've brought (ph) me and lost me a number of times.
[12:55:09]
TAPPER: There wasn't a relation -- it wasn't a relationship. Although I do think while they were allegedly canoodling, there was some watching of Shark Week that was happening, but the Karen McDougal --
BASH: No way too much about that.
TAPPER: Believe me, this is not what I signed up for when I became a political reporter. All right, I thought I was going to be talking much more about policy. Anyway, the Karen McDougal situation lasting 10 to 11 months was an alleged relationship.
BASH: Right.
TAPPER: And --
BASH: But she said she was in love with him.
TAPPER: She says she was in love with him and it is different.
GANGEL: And he has said she was a nice girl, which, you know, she was nice. So I do think there are two other things in Keith Davidson. Some of this has gone by very quickly, but two things worth mentioning when he talks about Charlie Sheen, that's $2 million. He doesn't verify that. But it shows this is relatively little in comparison to that (ph).
TAPPER: Much more CNN special live coverage in minutes as a key prosecution witness is still being cross examined by Donald Trump's attorney. Stick with us. We'll be right back.
