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CNN Live Event/Special

Former Lawyer For Stormy Daniels Back On Stand; Attorney Testifies Porn Publisher Larry Flint Offered Stormy Daniels $1M Plus Legal Fees To Break Trump Settlement. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:32:09]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: We continue our breaking news coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial here in Manhattan. Right now, the defense is cross-examining the former attorney for Stormy Daniels.

Trump, however, appears concerned about reports that he's falling asleep. Just before court resumed moments ago, he posted on Truth Social the following quote:

"I don't fall asleep during the crooked D.A.'s witch hunt, especially not today. I simply close my beautiful blue eyes, sometimes listen intensely, take it all in!!!" Three exclamation points.

Joining -- joining us now is reporter, Alayna Treene, who has been following the Trump campaign here this entire campaign. And CNN political commentator, Republican strategist and former Trump campaign adviser, David Urban.

All right, so, David, I have to say I was in the courtroom the other day and I saw him lean back sometimes closing -- I saw that. I actually just am going to take this very seriously for one second and say, it did not appear to me that he was ever sleeping.

He was paying attention just in various positions. However, the way he chooses to do this and focus on his beautiful blue eyes and the optics, he cares about the optics, David.

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Look, it's -- that's a classic Trump tweet, right, about this. He's trying to make light of the situation a little bit and say, look, I'm not sleeping.

Although I have to say, he's sitting there for hours and hours and hours without a Diet Coke. It's probably killing him, right? it's probably killing him.

He is -- he's usually, I'm sure, very caffeinated during the day. And is as folks who know drink Cokes and Diet Cokes, if you're missing one or two a day, let alone, I'm sure he's missing probably about 10 a day, it's probably rough.

BURNETT: I will say, you know, the other day, the time when they played a C-Span video of Trump and there's a screen right in front of him. And at that point, David, he's leaning in really close to look at it.

You know, there were moments when he's incredibly engaged and paying attention. But -- but frequently talking to his lawyers again, certainly doesn't seem like he's sleeping.

But, Alayna, you know, all of this is, to the - -David's point, he's spending his entire day sitting in a courtroom in a deeply uncomfortable chair.

And you're on the campaign trail where he isn't. So what are you hearing from voters about this trial? Are they paying attention to it? Do they care about it? Do they notice that he's not out with them?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: You know, it's really interesting. I actually was in Wisconsin yesterday for the first of two of Donald Trump's rallies.

And I asked voters that exact question. I asked many of them, are you paying attention to this trial? What do you make of it? The majority of them -- and, of course, these are Trump supporters, the type of people who show up on a Wednesday, take off work to go to his campaign events.

The majority of them said, we're not really paying attention. I don't think there's any point to this. They couldn't even really tell me what the trial was about, except to say that they think it's a sham and that they don't think it's worth their attention.

But there are also some other Trump supporters who said, look, I think I am watching this. I sometimes watch CNN. I watched it on FOX News. And they said -- they repeated the same lines that we hear from Donald Trump.

[14:35:11]

Now, apart from that, some other voters, and sometimes when I'm catching up with other people at different events, like outside different campaign events that aren't just for Donald Trump, they argue that, look, it's -- I think this is a hard trial for them to grasp in some respects.

Because the optics around this trial as well, it's obviously the first criminal trial that a former president has ever faced. It's unprecedented and they recognize that point.

But they're still unsure of whether or not that would change their overall opinion of Donald Trump.

And that's something I've been really trying to pay attention to a lot, to take a step back and see, how is this actually playing with voters? Because we're obviously, Erin, paying such close attention to this and all of the minute details of what is going on.

But I think a lot of America isn't. BURNETT: Yes.

TREENE: And so it's one good thing to keep in mind, particularly when you talk about the politics of this.

BURNETT: Yes, and important.

David, you know, also the tweet itself -- I'm sorry. Whatever the post on Truth Social.

URBAN: Truth Social.

BURNETT: It said -- right. The crooked or witch hunt D.A., whatever -- those are the words that are always used. But this case is about the D.A.

And just to be clear, obviously, Trump can say what he wants about the D.A. and the judge. That doesn't violate the gag order.

He has been, it appears, more careful in the past few days about things he's been posting and saying. They've been specifically about the D.A. and the judge.

And we know he didn't care about the $9,000 fine, but the judge said jail could be next.

Do you think that, from what you're seeing, it appears that Trump is taking this seriously?

URBAN: Yes, I think, you know, that the president understands that he can -- but, listen, the one thing I think it bothers him is that he can't punch back on Michael Cohen, right?

He feels it's unfair that Michael Cohen can go on social media for hours a day and kind of take a, you know, an ax to him and he can't --

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: But Michael Cohen said he's not going to do that now.

URBAN: Well, let's wait and see, right? Let's wait and see.

He was he was on I was on last night on social media. So - but -- but you're right. He can rail against a lot of things and it's well within the -- it's in the confines of the order.

And I think he's probably -- you know, he's been -- it's been explained to him. And I think he's just going to continue down that path.

And to the extent that the narrative continues, just feed that this is -- it's lawfare just, you know, by being continued against him. The tweets will continue in that vein.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Alayna, David, thank you both very much. And our special coverage of the former president's historic criminal

trial continues after this. Right now, Keith Davidson under cross- examination. Just had headphones on, listening to a conversation to refresh his memory. We'll tell you exactly what is happening as we return with our special coverage.

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[14:42:27]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Court is now back in session after breaking for lunch. Our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial in New York continues right now.

And joining us now to discuss what's going on, CNN, presidential historian and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library, Tim Naftali.

Tim, thanks for joining us.

As you probably know, Keith --

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BLITZER: -- Keith Davidson, the lawyer, testified that he texted then- "National Enquirer" editor, Dylan Howard, and I'm quoting now, "What have we done?" This on election night back in 2016? And Howard responded, "Oh, my god."

Here are two men who were involved in this alleged cover up commenting on making history. What does that say to you?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: It says a lot about the ethics of the 2016 campaign. It also might explain why the "National Enquirer" did not want to play a role in the Stormy Daniels catch-and- kill.

So at a certain point, Pecker and his lieutenants realized that they were engaged in something they shouldn't be doing.

I wonder though what effect this will all have on the American public's perception of Donald Trump? Are they learning anything about the former president that they didn't already know?

BLITZER: It's a good question. What do you think?

NAFTALI: I think they already know this about Donald Trump. I don't think this affects them either way. The sorted details, just a reminder of the world in which he operated. And it's a world that he brought to the Oval Office.

Politically, however, I don't think this makes much of a difference. The public is not learning anything new about Donald Trump.

BLITZER: What goes through your head, Tim, as you watch this trial of the presumptive Republican presidential nominee fighting felony charges only a few months before a presidential election?

NAFTALI: Well, there are two things that go through my mind. The first is the strength of our institutions as a constitutional democracy.

The very fact that a grand jury can find that someone should be indicted, even if that person was once the most powerful person in the world, and remains a politically important person, that's a very healthy sign.

The second thing that goes through my mind is concern about the Republican Party. The Republican Party is about to re-nominate someone about whom there are many, many ethical and legal questions.

[14:45:05]

BLITZER: An important point.

In an interview yesterday, Tim, with the "Milwaukee Journal Sentinel," Trump did not necessarily commit to accepting the results of the 2024 presidential election. Potentially, how dangerous is that?

NAFTALI: Well, it's extraordinarily dangerous. It won't be as dangerous in Washington, D.C., as it was in 2020. Because in the National Guard and the -- and the Pentagon and local police will all be committed to keeping everything peaceful.

Which was not necessarily the case in 2020 because of the lack of leadership at the center of our government.

I worry about what happens outside of Washington, D.C., in the days after the election, should President Biden be reelected. Will President Trump, former President Trump's supporters accept the outcome?

That's what I worry about. I really do worry about political violence at the end of this year.

BLITZER: Yes, that's scary to even hear that.

Tim Naftali, the presidential historian, thank you very much for joining us.

And to our viewers, we're going to keep following all the new developments out of the New York courtroom, as our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial continues.

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[14:50:52]

BURNETT: And welcome back to our special coverage of former President Trump's hush money trial.

Keith Davidson, Stormy Daniel's former attorney and Karen McDougal's former attorney, is back on the stand. Cross-examination is continuing. Phil Mattingly, Paula Reid are back.

And in these past few moments, there have been some very interesting questions asked on cross, including one saying that while we know she ended up doing this deal with Michael Cohen for $130,000, but that Larry Flint had maybe offered $1 million?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's a little confusing exactly what he was offering, but it appeared that he was offering her a million dollars and her -- her legal costs as well.

I think it just underscores the seedy world that we're talking about, that they're operating in.

Now here, defense attorneys are confronting Davidson with another recording in which he told Michael Cohen that Daniels wanted, quote, "the money."

And this is interesting because I think they're pressuring him here ahead of the election. And he's about, say, if he loses this election, and he's going to lose, we all lose all of our F'ing leverage.

So here they're homing in on this question of leverage. Did you think that you had, quote, "leverage" over Trump ahead of the election?

That's significant because, if you think you have leverage over someone, that speaks more to extortion as opposed to a mutually beneficial agreement where someone suppresses a story.

Now Davidson confirms he said, if he loses, Trump, this election, and he's going to lose, we all lose all F-ing leverage.

And this is what prosecutors are really hammering Davidson on, is this question of whether he was trying to extort Trump ahead of the election.

BURNETT: Right, yes.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT & ANCHOR: The setup to this point was fascinating. Paul and I were talking about before we came on. Where he is explicit -- Davidson is explicitly asked, did you use the word leverage in conversations with Michael Cohen? Davidson said no.

And then they brought out a recording. And it was where, right before they play the recording --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: were you aware -- were you aware that Michael Cohen may have recorded your conversations? And Davidson candidly acknowledges, yes, I believe that was possible.

Because the conversations were very different at different points, where he talked about how, in his words, he seemed bassy, seemed self- serving in some conversations, implying that perhaps he was recording it.

They played a recording where, in fact, he uses the word "leverage." Now this is another recording that they're playing where, in fact, Davidson uses the word "leverage."

So to Paula's point, trying to lay out the kind of extortion versus what an NDA actually is or means, the dynamic that they've been talking about throughout the course of this cross-examination.

And now catching him and saying, no, I never said that. Oh, wait, no, it's on tape. I did say it.

BURNETT: So, Paula, let me ask you about that. Phil just mentioned that they were asking Keith Davidson about Cohen's tone. And he did say sometimes he's seemed much more formal and buttoned up and prepared and organized than others.

And I wasn't sure, is that to try to make the point that sometimes he recorded and sometimes he didn't? Or finally, when you're prepared, it's because Trump signed off and you've got all your "T"s crossed or -- what is going to be the takeaway here?

REID: I think Davidson knew from his many years swimming in these kinds of waters that if Michael Cohen was being that on script, he was likely being recorded.

Now I want to step away. Big picture --

BURNETT: Many years swimming, you're just going --

REID: Even I know this. With certain sources, you know, if they really change it up, you're like, am I being recorded? Perhaps. You just -- you kind of learn people's rhythms.

And he clearly knew Cohen's rhythm as being very erotic and emotional. So if he seems scripted, Davidson was right to be concerned.

But remember, Davidson is the one who receives the money directly from Michael Cohen. At the heart of this case, there's an allegation that Trump then paid Cohen back and covered it up -- covered up that this was hush money and said this was for legal services or a retainer.

But if you watch Davidson right now on the stand, you can see where some jurors might eventually wonder, well, was Cohen just doing what he needed to due to advocate for his client and protect him from extortion?

I mean, so far, this has been a powerful cross for the defense and just raising some questions about what exactly happened in the days leading up to the election and what Trump was eventually reimbursement.

BURNETT: And I guess, Phil, in a sense, also making the point of, of course, everybody knew this could be relevant to the election. That maybe even conceding that point.

[14:55:02]

But that is different than saying that it was done for the purpose of the falsification and at Trump's orders and all of the other levels, which are needed for it to become a crime.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it was a central part of their back-and-forth earlier today, where he was making clear that this wasn't about the election. They weren't trying to use the election, despite the fact that I have text messages on the election saying, "Oh, no," or, "What did we do?"

Making very clearly that at least they were aware on the periphery that, in fact, this was the Republican nominee for president, and he could, in fact, become president.

And so whether or not jurors draw that direct connection, obviously, it's very much up to them. But it is certainly a central theme that we've gotten throughout the course of this cross.

BURNETT: Right.

And we're going to stay here because I know this is kind of a happy, fast and furious back and forth here now in this cross.

So we're going to take a brief break. We're going to come back. We're going to - obviously, this is -- the next question is going to come in. We'll be ready to share it with you.

Our special coverage of the former president's trial continues in a moment.

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