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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Former Lawyer For Stormy Daniels Testifying; Defense Atty. Notes Stormy Daniels Deal Wasn't Signed By Trump; Now: Sixth Day Of Testimony In Trump Hush Money Trial. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 02, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:31]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to our breaking news coverage of Donald Trump's unprecedented hush money criminal trial in New York. I'm Wolf Blitzer in the nation's Capitol. Erin Burnett is just outside the court in New York.

We are tracking minute-by-minute updates as Trump's defense attorney just finished cross-examining a key lawyer. Talking about Keith Davidson, he represented both Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, who were both paid to keep quiet about alleged affairs with Trump. Erin?

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST, "OUTFRONT": And the prosecution requested a five-minute break here to decide whether they're going to try to do re-direct examination. And Davidson's testimony so far, some really crucial moments both on direct and in these recent moments in cross. He says these deals were crafted in the weeks before the 2016 election and he said that he never had any interaction with Trump directly.

Phil Mattingly and Paula Reid are back with me.

So, Paula, as I said, they just asked for a five-minute break and you said this is a five-minute break where you sit down and go, OMG, we need to clean up on aisle five.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they do. I mean, this was incredibly effective cross-examination largely because the prosecution did not themselves bring up a lot of Davidson's other dealings. Deals that he brokered from clients - for clients who got money from, for example, Charlie Sheen or going to try to get money from Hulk Hogan in exchange for a sex tape, something where some of his interactions were monitored by the authorities.

They did incredibly damaging things that raised questions about whether Davidson was indeed in the business of extortion.

BURNETT: Interesting. Trump, so they're back in, Keith Davidson's back on the stand ...

REID: This is big.

BURNETT: But Trump glanced at the Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg as he walked in.

REID: So this ...

BURNETT: He hasn't been in yet, has he?

REID: This is ...

BURNETT: He wasn't there the other day when I was there.

REID: You're exactly right. So this is fascinating, Alvin Bragg of it all. This is the district attorney who oversees this case, but he has taken a very low profile here. When we had the civil case just a few blocks away, the Attorney General of the state of New York, Letitia James, she talked to the microphones every single day, often responded to Trump on social media. Alvin Bragg is deliberately taking an extremely different approach. He is not often in the court. You never hear from him. Even in his few media appearances, he has not answered questions recently about this case.

So the fact that he's in court today, that's really interesting, especially because they just think they got killed on cross, so this is fascinating that he's ...

BURNETT: They got killed, so it means he's not far away. Maybe he was in that room waiting and saying, I'm going to oversee the cleanup.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT & ANCHOR: But I saw a reporter's report that he had walked in was, oh man, it's one of those things where like, you didn't have a great day and your boss comes into the room with you and it's like I'm just here to let you know.

BURNETT: Yes, your boss is like, yes, you know what if you can't get it right, I'm going to sit here, right?

MATTINGLY: What would be interesting in terms of what the prosecutors come back with is kind of the two things that connected the entire cross, which is no proof that Donald Trump had any knowledge, at least from Keith Davidson, of what happened. No direct proof, including the defense attorney at the very end, almost closing out by looking through the official agreement and making clear that the space where Donald Trump or the pseudonym that they used for Donald Trump was supposed to be signed was actually left empty.

And the other as well was trying to underscore that there was a connection to the election. Again, what Paula has been walking everybody through for the last several hours about whether or not this was extortion or just kind of the process of getting through an NDA.

BURNETT: Yes.

MATTINGLY: And that was the clear point that they started with, that they continued through and continued to try and prove, and it's how they closed as well. Certainly, it'd be something that prosecutors would have to respond to.

BURNETT: And, of course, it's interesting, Trump knowing the importance, having watched that cross, seeing Alvin Bragg come in, a guy who an hour before he had posted on Truth Social was crooked or - I'm always confused whether it's crooked or corrupt, but a witch-hunt, but definitely witch-hunt and DA Alvin Bragg was in there and now there they are, again, glancing quickly. I mean, that's 10, 15 feet away at the most.

REID: It's just - it's so indicative of this case, but again I am surprised to see Alvin Bragg because he has taken such a low - a low profile, and the decision not to engage constantly, quite a contrast to the other Trump trial we saw a few months ago.

Now the jury has returned to the courtroom as the prosecution begins its redirect of Davidson, and it's going to be interesting how they go through really what the defense did to completely undercut Davidson's credibility. We lost count of how many times he said he could not recall, how many times he couldn't remember something and then his recollection had to be refreshed for something that was often not very favorable to him.

So this is going to be fascinating to watch Joshua Steinglass.

[15:05:03]

He's back at the podium and he has this work cut out for him and the boss is watching.

BURNETT: The boss is there in the room.

All right, Paula and Phil. Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: All right. Erin, thanks very much.

Our panel is still with me and Elliot Williams. We have a clip that I want to play for you and our viewers of Keith Davidson, the lawyer who's been testifying, he's now under more questioning. And this was an interview he did back in 2018 with CNN's Sara Sidner. Let me play the clip for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH DAVIDSON, STORMY DANIELS' FORMER ATTORNEY: In the last conversation I had with Michael Cohen, he called to offer his opinion as to whether or not Ms. Daniels and Ms. McDougal had breached attorney-client privilege and thereby waived it. It was his assertion that each of them had and he was encouraging me and informing me as to his opinion that they in fact had waived the attorney-client privilege and he suggested that it would be appropriate for me to go out into the media and spill my guts.

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR & SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you here at the behest of Michael Cohen?

DAVIDSON: No, no, no, not in any way shape or form.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What do you think?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm having a hard time seeing where he's going with that. Now the, sort of, on the attorney-client privilege point, conversations that a client has with their attorney are protected about the scope of their representation. If the client chooses to go forward, that privilege rests with the client and perhaps he's making the point there that, perhaps, Miss Daniels had gone forward there, but I'm just not quite sure how that helps him. I don't know if he had a thought.

BLITZER: I mean, it's interesting that Trump's lawyers have been trying repeatedly to paint Keith Davidson, the man we just heard, as totally unsavory, who likes to work with unsavory kinds of individuals.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, for sure. There was a really important moment of cross-examination that happened a few minutes ago where they got Davidson to admit that he said at one point, "If he," meaning Trump, "If Trump loses the election, we all lose all (expletive) leverage."

And again, the defense is driving at this point that this was a shakedown. Forget about the legal technical definition of extortion, but this was a shakedown. And the reason that matters is the prosecution theory is this was actually a campaign expenditure. This was money that Donald Trump and Michael Cohen were spending to protect him from the election and that therefore they falsified the records, and therefore they violated New York law and campaign finance law.

If the jury thinks this is all just a shakedown, there's no crime in structuring a payment where you're being shaken down in order to protect yourself, your family, even if it's campaign related. If the jury thinks this is a shakedown, they're going to throw this case out.

WILLIAMS: And that's why they used the words extortion multiple times on cross-examination today to suggest that we weren't looking at just a normal structured transaction, but someone trying to buy off someone else's silence with threats.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: But the question is, as I said earlier, who approached whom? Which came first, chicken or egg?

HONIG: We know, the chicken.

BORGER: Yes.

HONIG: I mean, McDougal and Daniels threw Keith Davidson ...

BORGER: Right.

HONIG: They came first.

BORGER: Right. And now what the prosecution has to do is try and rehabilitate Keith Davidson, because he's been torn apart by Trump's lawyers. And they did a very effective job in making him look like a shakedown artist, and making Trump look like the victim here. And they're going to have to figure out a way to reverse that, rehabilitate Davidson into somebody not unsavory and unethical. And that's not going to be easy.

WILLIAMS: I'll tell you exactly how you do it. You don't get into a back and forth about you're a bad guy ...

BORGER: Right.

WILLIAMS: ... now I'm going to come up and say how much of a good guy you are. Let it go. What they ought to - I think, and again, I don't speak for them.

BORGER: Right.

WILLIAMS: But I think what you do is go back to the strength of their case, and just say, on this date, did you have a meeting with Stormy Daniels; on this date, did you execute this agreement. Yes? Boom, and get out of there.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, that's where they're starting. Steinglass, the assistant district attorney on the prosecution side, is now asking questions and it says here, the prosecutor asked Davidson whether Michael Avenatti at that point was representing Daniels and had sued Cohen and Davidson. I believe so.

They also asked in this portion of redirect is the recorded conversation that Michael Cohen had recorded, where you heard in the earlier testimony that Davidson was - noticed a change in the tone of the conversation that Michael Cohen was being far more structured and deliberate in what he was saying and the content of that recorded conversation.

So I don't think this is about, to Elliot's point, yes, they tore him apart and they need to rebuild. But it's not about building up Davidson's character here in some way that he is the one on trial or not. It is about utilizing him for the actual purpose to the charges at case.

[15:10:02]

BORGER: Right. But to do that, they have to make him believable and seem more ethical than he appeared when Trump's attorneys were questioning him.

WILLIAMS: The other thing I left out is that anything - one can only cross examine on that which came up in direct. One can only redirect on that which came up in cross and on and on and on. If they return to this question specifically of the credibility of Davidson, that gives the defense an opening to bring that ...

BORGER: Bring that.

WILLIAMS: ... the credibility issues right back. So they should just stick to, I think, just stick to things that they can establish that help their case and not give the defense an opening for further cross- examination. HONIG: And by the way, another unsavory character has now entered the cast. Michael Avenatti is becoming a figure that is being spoken about on cross-examination and now again on redirect. I think the point they're driving at is some of this behavior by Stormy Daniels and her team happened after Davidson had been essentially removed as her representative. And now Michael Avenatti's representing her, but boy, again, I don't like that as a prosecutor because it's just one more snake in the pit here. They've already just spent the last day and a half hearing about ...

CHALIAN: I think those are the only options available in this case.

HONIG: Yes. I mean, right. They don't, you're right. They don't get to choose their snakes, but Avenatti is - you don't want - neither side wants anything to do with Michael Avenatti.

BORGER: I think that works for the defense more than the prosecution.

HONIG: That's also - yes, I agree.

BORGER: Yes.

HONIG: I agree.

BLITZER: Another lawyer. I want to quickly, Gloria, get your thoughts on what Trump posted on social media. "I don't fall asleep during the Crooked DA's Witch Hunt, especially not today. I simply close my beautiful blue eyes, sometimes, listen intensely, and take it ALL in."

BORGER: Well, it's clearly gotten to him, this notion that he's, you know, sleepy Don, as Joe Biden referred to him, and he had to - he wants to clarify the record that he's just taking it all in and listening in. He's pretty vain, and he wouldn't want that to be said about him, so he posted it on Truth Social.

And that he does close his eyes, I don't know whether they're beautiful blue eyes, I'll leave that out of the record, but ...

BLITZER: It's not the first time he's complimented his beautiful blue eyes.

BORGER: ... himself on his eyes - but I think he wants to let everyone know that he just sits back, closes his eyes and listens.

WILLIAMS: I don't fall asleep is precisely the thing that would be said by someone who does, in fact, fall asleep.

BORGER: It's hard to tell.

BLITZER: All right, guys. Everybody stay with us. Lot more coming up. Testimony of Donald Trump's hush money trial is still happening right now in Manhattan. More of what's coming out of that courtroom when our special coverage continues.

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[15:17:09]

BURNETT: All right. In the New York court behind me, Keith Davidson is back on the stand right now. The redirect has ended from prosecution, so now we'll see whether there's a re-cross. So let's find out exactly what happens here.

Judge Jeffrey Swartz joins me now.

So, Judge, a lot to ask you about that's happened in just these past few moments. But one thing that happened after the cross examination, the prosecution requested this five minute break after what had been a very difficult cross examination for the prosecution. And afterwards, when they came back in, the Attorney General Alvin Bragg was there and he has not yet been in that courtroom until today at that moment. Does that signal anything to you?

JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER FLORIDA JUDGE: Not really. I think that it's one of those days where his minions are having a difficult afternoon. I think he really was there to let them know that he was still supporting them. I don't think that it brings up any thought process that he's going to involve himself in the case any deeper than he already has.

BURNETT: So, okay, which is important and you see it as a measure of support. Judge, let me ask you, though, when you talk about them having a difficult afternoon as a defense attorney, as a judge, you've seen this from all sides. Having a difficult cross examination as the prosecution just had right where there was questions raised about really whether this was much more of extortion done really all by Michael Cohen without Trump's involvement.

Does a witness like this in a moment like that, is that something you could say this could be what the case turns upon or no?

SWARTZ: Yes, it can turn upon it. But I want to look at a different thought process on that. The more they dirty up the witnesses who surrounded Donald Trump, people that he did business with, or he was aware that he was doing business with, you start to wonder, is this who Donald Trump is, too? And I think the jury has to wonder why is he surrounded by actually a Michael Cohen or the people that he associates with, whether it was McDougal or whether it was Stormy Daniels or any of these other people, why is he surrounding himself with those kind of people?

And it's almost like your guilt by association. And that is, are you one of them. And I think that's a thought process that the prosecution will start to center upon if more of their witnesses start to get dirtied up too much.

BURNETT: Can something like that, though, when you're talking about sort of just guilt by association or your character is reflective of how you behave and those around you. I understand what you're saying. But in a criminal case where the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt and you only need one juror to have that reasonable doubt.

[15:20:03] How important is that sort of character argument that you're making?

SWARTZ: I don't think - first of all, I think that the prosecution always has the answer that we don't go out and hire new witnesses to say what I want them to say. We are stuck with the people that are involved. They are the people that are there and the witnesses are who they are as we find them. And that argument is always pretty effective with a jury as they understand if there's criminal activity of any kind, then it's criminals you're going to hear from to a great extent.

I don't think that that really is going to affect, the character idea will affect it all that much. It is going to come down to was Donald Trump aware of all of this? Was he in control of the actions of the people that were involved here? Was he the person that was making the direction of the negotiations? Did he tell Michael Cohen what to do and how to do it?

And if he did, then that's what's going to turn on this. And they're going to have to be convinced that he was knee deep in this, that it wasn't just his toe tipping in the water.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Jeffrey Swartz, I appreciate it obviously, defense attorney and former Florida judge. Thank you very much. And more of our special coverage when we come back. Right now, you've got a re-cross examination and you've got a transcript on the screen of some of these conversations Trump reading it. This is what's going on at this very moment, and we'll be right back.

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[15:26:13]

BLITZER: Welcome back to our special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money criminal trial. The defense has just finished cross examining Keith Davidson, the former lawyer for the adult film star Stormy Daniels.

Joining us now CNN's Alayna Treene, who's been following the Trump campaign. She's been covering the campaign trail for us.

Alayna, the president took his day off yesterday from the trial. There was no trial yesterday. Wednesdays are off days. He held rallies in both Wisconsin and Michigan, two very key battleground states. Tell us about the time he spent talking about the actual hush money case when he spoke publicly and how is the campaign in general handling Trump being back in court today?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Right. Well, Wolf, he spent those rallies yesterday, both in Michigan and Wisconsin, railing against the gag order in this case and criticizing the judge as well as blaming the case overall on Joe Biden. Now, of course, I think it's noteworthy to point out the timing of those comments. They came one day after the judge in this case had fined Donald Trump $9,000 for nine separate violations of the gag order. That's $1,000 for each violation.

And then, of course, they had a hearing this morning on the gag order as well, although we don't know what the judge has decided in that just yet. Take a listen to how Trump framed it, though, while speaking in Michigan yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have come here today from New York City, where I'm being forced to sit for days on end in a kangaroo courtroom with a corrupt and conflicted judge enduring a Biden sideshow trial, at the hands of a Marxist district attorney, Soros-backed, who's taking orders from the Biden administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, a few things I want to point out there, Wolf. One is that he said that he was forced to be in court. And part of that is true, he is stuck in court four days out of the week. But Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays, he is able to campaign. And though we did see him on the trail yesterday, that was actually the first time we saw him hit the campaign trail since this trial began more than two weeks ago.

Part of that is because he tried to hold another rally, had to cancel it at the 11th hour due to storm weather. But apart from that, he really hasn't been aggressively campaigning as much as his advisors had expected him to do. And I'm told that many people close to Trump were actually surprised he hasn't been hitting the ground more.

Of course, he is trying to campaign from inside the court itself, speaking to reporters every time he enters and exits the courtroom, as we've been covering very closely here, Wolf.

BLITZER: Alayna Treene reporting for us. Alayna, thank you very much.

I want to go back to Erin. She's just outside the courthouse in New York. Erin?

BURNETT: All right, Wolf. And so Paula and Phil are with me now, and we now have, if you've been watching on your screen, we have a new witness on the stand. So Keith Davidson is in the past.

REID: He is.

BURNETT: For better or for worst to the prosecution. You've got a guy, Douglas, I believe, Douglas Daus. Did I ...

REID: Yes.

BURNETT: Okay. He is a high tech expert. Tell me what the strategy is in putting this person on the stand.

REID: So, yes, he processes digital evidence in a unit called the High Technology Analysis Unit. So he works for the Manhattan District Attorney. Look, we only have about an hour here and the strategy is that at some point they have to put Mr. Daus on to get some evidence in. Get it appropriately, verified, so it can be entered into evidence.

And the reason you want to do this right now and not call another witness is because if you call Hope Hicks, Kellyanne Conway, Karen McDougal, the defense is going to know and they're going to have all night to prepare and we know they're not sharing those names.

BURNETT: Right. They're only going to get a little bit of it started, because that's ...

REID: Exactly.

BURNETT: ... yes.

REID: So they're going to put on these record custodians, that's how we refer to them, these sort of administrative moves that the prosecution has to make. That's how they tend to use these small blocks of time they have so they don't tip their hand to the defense.

BURNETT: Right.

[15:30:07]