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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Longtime Trump Aide Hope Hicks Testifying. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired May 03, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Quote, we were all just following his lead. That is blockbuster testimony that we are hearing in the Manhattan, the hush money trial of Donald Trump. As Hope Hicks once -- one of his closest confidant and most trusted aides is now on the stand. Talking about how Trump ran his business and his 2016 presidential campaign.

This is CNN special live coverage. I'm Kaitlan Collins here in New York. Hope Hicks just acknowledged that she didn't know the tabloid king David Pecker, the first witness that we heard from in this trial. She said that he and the former president she would describe as quote, friends.

She also testified that she was present at times for Trump's phone calls with David Pecker. And at one point said that they were incredibly close, and Trump praised reporting that came out in the National Enquirer.

CNN's Laura Coates and Paula Reid are back here with me. And Paula, I think one thing that's really notable about this line of testimony that we've gotten from Hope Hicks, where she's been praising Donald Trump saying, what a good communicator he is with the media. Talking about how bare bones the 2016 campaign was.

But essentially saying Donald Trump was an incredibly hands on manager, whether it was his business or his campaign. And that every time she issued a statement on the campaign's behalf, she checked with him first.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: And of course, prosecutors like this because in their case, they're going to try to tie the fact that he is a hands-on manager to their accusation that Michael Cohen paid this hush money ahead of the 2016 campaign to help Trump get elected. He knew this was happening. And then he was aware, the documents were falsified when Michael Cohen was reimbursed.

So, this seeming, you know, like throwaway comments by a lot of people about how involved he was in his day-to-day business, either the Trump organization or the Trump campaign will be significant for the prosecutors.

COLLINS: And it's notable that Hope Hicks is testifying because she was also on the phone with Donald Trump and Michael Cohen. Laura, the day that they found out that Stormy Daniels wanted more money in exchange for her story as that campaign was getting in its final days. And she was describing the campaign travel in the fall of 2016, saying they were together almost every single day. And in most days, they would return to Trump Tower at the end of the day.

Why are they getting into, you know, the routine of what it was like in those final weeks of the campaign?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they want to establish again. This is the timing of it that it was for the purpose of the campaign that they falsified business records. Hope Hicks is not having additional follow. There's actually an update that she says that she became aware of the Access Hollywood tape on October 7 after receiving an email from Washington Post reporter, so you can comment on it.

And so, she also was in the office on the 14th floor of Trump Tower at that time. And so, they're trying to establish that all this was done not for the purpose of trying to protect one's personal life, but for the purpose of knowing that it was going to impact the campaign in some way. Her being in these rooms during the conversation because Hope Hicks got the motivation.

What were they actually saying about it? Was it literally a conversation when you said, I've heard about this. What about Melania? And that's it. Or was it -- what about the campaign? You remember, David Pecker testified. He thought that it was about the campaign that he never mentioned Melania Trump. Did he ever mention anything about his personal life. She can sort of thread that needle for us.

COLLINS: Also, if I'm remembering correctly and I think I do that they were in the middle of debate prep when this happened. When the story was breaking it about to come out that because we've heard from others who were in the room and who were describing, you know, the kind of the panic moment is Trump had a debate that Sunday with Hillary Clinton.

And now she is being shown an email of the reporter, a copy of the email that she received from David Fahrenthold, the reporter who broke this story that landed like a car on top of the campaign. I mean, it was a remarkable -- maybe an 18-wheeler is a better description, because it was a remarkable moment in the campaign where they were sent into real panic mode about what it meant for them.

REID: Yeah, absolutely. Now, with the benefit of hindsight. If you read books by folks who were in the campaign and even his most loyal advisers, Kellyanne Conway, and others say that this was the biggest test that they faced while working for then candidate Trump. I mean, they all thought that this was basically game over for his campaign.

[12:05:00]

Hicks is smiling as she recalls she forwarded the email once in the Washington Post to others on the campaign, but the reason we were very focused on this time period and have been with a lot of witnesses is because again, the Access Hollywood tape, prosecutors would argue, really changed the calculus within the Trump campaign. And for the then candidate in terms of the urgency and the need to suppress stories about alleged affairs.

Now, the subject line of this email from the Washington Post reporter was urgent, Washington Post query. The email has now been accepted into evidence. So now it's being shown to everyone in court. But this is a significant moment. It is so interesting to me that through all these witnesses, we still haven't really gotten past December 2016, which is, of course, you know, around the time we have a couple more months then when these documents were actually falsified. The actual allegations at the core of this case.

But prosecutors will argue that this time period really sets up the need and the pressure on candidate Trump, on Michael Cohen to make the Stormy Daniels story go away. Why? Because they were so concerned about the election.

COATES: And that's ingenious. You said -- you mentioned Michael Cohen here because the defense didn't want this to keep being redirected to Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen son urgency. Michael Cohen was testifying, or they were hearing about his testimony yesterday through Ken Davidson about the idea that he was angry. He wasn't going to go to the White House with him.

And I remember, thinking the time leading up December. If the defense wants to portray Michael Cohen as a sycophant who will do anything, for example, David Fahrenthold also writing to Hicks on October 7. I have extremely urgent requests for you today.

We're waiting to see what that request would have been. But suffice to say, it likely is after the entirety of -- we know this is the actual reporter on Washington Post. And what she would be able to do for him was to get some sort of a comment. And she forwarded, of course, to the rest of the campaign. But the timing is so crucial.

If you're the defense, you want to show that Michael Cohen had some other motivation for making sure this was not going to get into the world. He wanted to benefit somehow from Trump being in office, and he wanted to get an attaboy and a pat on the back. If she can connect the dots to the prosecution and suggest, this was a terrifying moment of the fog of Access Hollywood. And to have one more claim, be like that straw on the camel's back. That would have been problematic.

And again, that's what you have (inaudible) coming in, saying, I've got this. I need to get paid for it. So, this is all going to be part of their master plan of summing it all up and the timing of. But you're so right, Paula. We are almost what 11 days in, and the jury is probably finally now going OK, somebody who's right in the circle, who knows him really well, who's been in every room where it happened. Finally, we're hearing from her.

COLLINS: And we also have Judge Diane Kiesel here with us and former -- and former New York Supreme Court judge -- retired former New York Supreme Court judge, I should note. And judge, it's great to have you here as we are watching. One of the most fascinating moments probably this trial that has happened so far. Given Hope Hicks and just her proximity and her closeness and how much Trump trusted her, now testifying about the craziest days of his 2016 campaign. And when she was asked what her first reaction was to getting that email from a Washington Post reporter. She said quote, I was concerned -- very concerned. I wonder what impact you think this is having on that jury that's told jurors who are sitting there.

DIANE KIESEL, FORMER NEW YORK SUPREME COURT JUDGE: Good afternoon. I think this jury is on the edge of its seats right now. Hope Hicks seems to be a likable witness. She so far seems to have no particular axe to grind. Unlike Michael Cohen, we haven't heard anything about her posting negative tweets or having any type of falling out with the former president.

So, depending on how she's presenting this evidence. I suspect the jury likes her. I suspect the jury is riveted. And she will be an extraordinarily effective witness for the people. And it will be very interesting to see how the defense handles her on cross examination. I mean, a woman who walks into a courtroom and says, I'm really nervous to be here. I don't know that they want to go after her very harshly. That could backfire.

COLLINS: That's a great question. Because one, its which attorney of Trumps will question her. We know it's three attorneys up there. Two men, one woman. Susan Necheles, Todd Blanche, and Emil Bove who we saw questioning yesterday. How do they cross examine someone like Hope Hicks? Because she and Donald Trump don't have a great relationship as of this moment.

It chilled considerably after she had testified in another situation about January 6, and her texts were revealed. And you know what the defense is listening to right now as her talking about. She forwarded that email from the Washington Post, asking for comment on the Access Hollywood tape to several other senior people on the campaign. Jason Miller, David Bossie, Kellyanne Conway and Steve Bannon. You know, they're saying this is in the upper periphery of the Trump campaign.

[12:10:00]

How's the defense listening to all of this and preparing for what that cross examination could look like? And let me know really quickly before you answer, Hicks wrote in all caps, FLAGGING. And in this email, she said one need to hear the tape to be sure. Two, deny, deny, deny. Obviously, we all heard the tape, not a lot of denial -- room for denial there, Judge?

KIESEL: Well, look. I think they -- they're going to have to try and show that either her memory is faulty, or that despite the fact that Mr. Trump was a hands-on guy when it came to campaigning. When it came to damage control, he left that up to others, i.e., his senior staff and in particular, Michael Kohn.

Now whether again, that's going to fly with the jury, is another question. But I think the defense -- and look these are experienced defense lawyers. They know this probably better than I do. They are going to have to be sure that they treat her with kid gloves and go after not any motive for her not to be truthful. But perhaps, you know, hey, well happened a long time ago, maybe she doesn't remember so well anymore.

COLLINS: And Judge, she just testified, you know, that deny, deny, deny strategy was going to be a little more difficult. She says with a laugh. So, she's coming across issue as she was very nervous when she first got off the stand. She seems to be coming into her own lawyer.

She has testify about what was happening. And talk about how difficult it was going to be to deny something that was really undeniable. And she says the team was on another floor -- the 25th floor in a conference room. They were in the middle of debate prep because Donald Trump was 48 hours away from being face-to-face with Hillary Clinton.

What about -- what Hope Hicks had to say that every time she put out a statement for the campaign, she checked with Donald Trump first and got his permission. As she says now, she's recalling Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, Jared Kushner, his son-in-law and Jason Miller were all there with others as they were doing that debate prep. And kind of grappling with the fallout of this tape that was to be published soon in real time.

KIESEL: Well, again, I'd be clutching my stomach, if I were one of the defense lawyers upon hearing that. But there are ways to -- there are certainly ways to overcome that, for example, perhaps they could overcome this by saying, look, yes, all these people were gathering together to try and figure out what do we do here. What do we do here?

But -- because Michael Cohen was such a close -- gates that goes close counsel to the president, he perhaps on his own decided to handle this, whether that will fly, I don't know. But again, I try it. I suppose if I were them.

COLLINS: We'll see what they do try. We'll see how long the prosecution also goes with her. Judge Kiesel, thank you for that. And Dana, I mean, this was that pivotal moment in the campaign where people kind of described the blood trading from everyone's face in the room.

As Hope Hicks came in, she motioned for them to come into the conference room, so she could tell them that the Washington Post has an audio tape of this Republican nominee for president, bragging about sexually assaulting women and just that that moment in the campaign in and of itself.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST & CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Kaitlan, there are countless days and countless campaigns that we've covered, and that is one that I will never ever forget that moment that you're talking about, as a reporter when we heard about it. Thank you so much. And we're hearing now from the courtroom.

Hicks says she shared the content, quote, verbally with Trump. Saying, she has a vague recollection of starting to read the transcript and Trump finish reading it himself. OK. That must have been a bit awkward. As we continue to get updates from this really dramatic set of questions and answers. Hope Hicks, quote, he said, that didn't sound like something he would say. Hicks testifies note and Trump asked if he could see the actual tape. Well, it was something he actually right there. As you talk about this, can you please put yourself in the shoes of the prosecution and explain to our viewers why this line of questioning about the Access Hollywood tape.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right. So, this is really powerful evidence for prosecutors so far. They are showing that inside the Trump campaign. When this tape drops a couple of weeks before the election, the Trump campaign goes into full panic mode. Hope Hicks is right there in the middle. She's detailing it.

BASH: And she says, they were all quote, absorbing the shock of it. And they discussed trying to get a copy of the audio of the tape to assess the situation further.

HONIG: So, like I said, full panic mode. And here's why it matters legally. One of the things the prosecutors have to prove, it's not enough in itself. But they have to prove that the reason the business records were falsified is because they were worried about the campaign. They were worried about what these accusations by Stormy Daniels would do to the campaign.

[12:15:00]

It has to be some substantial campaign related motivation. I personally think, I've said on air several times. I think the evidence that this was a campaign related move is quite powerful, quite overwhelming. I think --

BASH: Which is this?

HONIG: Well, that the reason they paid off Stormy Daniels, is a good question. The reason they paid off Stormy Daniels was in large part. Doesn't have to be 100 percent. But in large part motivated by, oh, my gosh, we're a couple of weeks away from the campaign. We need to keep her quiet. This is more evidence of that.

BASH: The prosecutor asked Hope Hicks, was Mr. Trump upset when he saw the tape? Yes. Yeah. He was, Hicks said. Jim, you are the only one of us who was an attorney for Donald Trump. Can you shed light on that from your perspective?

JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: So sure, of course, he's going to be upset, right. And I think that this is significant in that, you know, again, full on panic mode. He seems to be very upset about it. You know, all the people around them -- you had, remember Chris Christie was there. Working with them in debate prep.

I think there was rumors there that Chris Christie recommended that, hey, you might want to step away from this thing. So, all of this is going on at one time. People -- you know, people are coming back.

BASH: And Jim, forgive me. Trump asked to see the actual tape. Hicks said, she adds that she can't remember whether she saw the tape before the post published its story or not.

SCHULTZ: Yeah. Look, this goes back to -- that's, you know, you're talking back in 2016. So, I think --

BASH: Yeah. But this is a pretty memorable moment.

SCHULTZ: She been getting incredibly -- credible witness here, right. She's doing -- she's giving her account. And look, things were moving fast at that point in time. She's going to remember some things. She's not going to remember other thing.

BASH: Kicks up her first reaction. I was a little stunned. Trump leans over to blanche to say something, as she testifies this. Your reaction to that? Well, actually -- forgive me, it's just to give you another update from inside the courtroom. It's hard to describe, but it was definitely concerning. I had a good sense. This was going to be a massive story, Hicks says.

CAROLYN KOCH, TRIAL & JURY CONSULTANT: You know, it's really interesting because I made the point earlier -- you know, Trump's perspective is he's got this trial and he's got the election. But the jurors have a perspective, too, which is, they are aware of the consequences of what they do, whether they acquit or whether or not they convict.

And then -- and they are also aware of the politics of this. And so, it really illustrates how a political campaign, you know, unfold. On the eve of an election, bad stuff is timed perfectly to come out to make the candidate scramble.

BASH: And she said there was a consensus among the group. Quote, the tape was damaging. This was a crisis.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it sure was. This wasn't just a crisis. This was a huge bombshell. We talk in politics in about October surprises. This was the ultimate October surprise, just to go back. There was reporting that Mike Pence was considering leaving the ticket. They did not know that they could survive this that the whole thing wasn't going to unravel.

I just think that if you look at her testimony today, someone who likes Donald Trump has spoken well of him. Nothing hostile. And then here you go. This is the backdrop for Stormy Daniels two weeks late.

BASH: And that's really a key here. As we look at and we think about the first question. I asked you, Elie, which is, why are we looking at this. But in the meantime, this is incredibly dramatic. Hope Hicks just now quote, in that moment, she was not concerned about the impact this would have on female voters, but it crossed her mind a few hours later or the next day.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, I do want to say what they have something -- when she says she was stunned and Donald Trump leans over to his lawyers, because obviously that's not something he wants to hear. He doesn't want to hear that she had some kind of negative reaction to the tape. That's just -- because he views her so favorably.

BASH: Kristen, Hicks just said, quote, certainly -- eventually, that was something that was raised. That meaning, the impact on voters (Ph). Go ahead.

HOLMES: So, he has had a number of conversations with senior advisors and his lawyers, because a lot of people who he was close to people he likes have testified against him. And he has been briefed that they are just quote unquote, "telling the truth." This is how he has maintained some of his relationships with people that we know have testified against him in the January 6 trials, as well as various cases. That is because he's been told over and over again, they have to tell the truth.

BASH: And Kristen, this is more of Hicks' testimony. He, meaning Trump didn't want to offend anyone -- anybody. I think he felt like it was pretty standard stuff for two guys chatting with each other. Hicks says that Trump was involved with the campaign response. He always liked to weigh in on responses.

HONIG: So, I think one thing that's undisputed here is Hope Hicks is telling the truth. I don't think either side is going to try to paint her as a liar or somebody who's trying to shade the truth. I think they're both going -- going to try to focus on and extract the key points that help them. This is significant as well. The Hope Hicks says, he, Donald Trump always like to weigh in on response. And again, right tying him directly to what's going on, honestly there's an update.

[12:20:00]

BASH: Hicks is shown a copy of the first statement that campaign put out on the tape. Trump leans forward to look at the monitor in front of him as it is displayed. So, this is more of what you just said.

HONIG: Yeah.

BASH: It's showing a pattern of Donald Trump being incredibly involved -- micromanaging even of things like that.

HONIG: Exactly. It's a direct link. And one thing that's been not non- existent, but rare in this case is a direct link from Donald Trump to any of the conduct. To be clear, again, not a crime, not a crime to be worried about the Access Hollywood tape. But an important element that goes to one of the aspects of the crime, which is again, that the payoff to Stormy Daniels was motivated by concern for the campaign.

GANGEL: Bottom line, Donald Trump calls the shots, whether it's in his business, his children, big decision. They came to him, the campaign, she's laying out the same scenario.

BASH: Which is why sometimes we know, as reporters covering Trump, particularly back then. Sometimes things take a little bit longer because when there's a crisis, his instinct is to do the right column thing, which is deny, deny, deny, or whatever it is, that doesn't necessarily fix a political problem. And his political advisors are trying to get him to do something else.

HOLMES: Yeah. I mean, look at his --

BASH: Kristen, Hicks read the initial campaign statement for the jury was his -- which is also displayed on the screen in the courtroom.

HOLMES: I mean, a perfect example of this is just what we saw when Nikki Haley dropped out of the race, right. The took forever for Donald Trump to put out a statement. And when he did, it was the opposite of what his campaign advisors had wanted him to do, which was to say something gracious, or even some point not saying anything at all, but instead it went on to attack her. And that's just one example of how Donald Trump is calling the shots still, even to this day.

BASH: The statement reads, quote, this was locker room banter, a private conversation that took place many years ago. That was certainly -- my memory is that was part of the actual statement that went out. It continues, quote, Bill Clinton has said far worse to me on the golf course not even close. I apologize if anyone was offended. Did the Bill Clinton thing make it into the final statement? I don't remember that.

HONIG: It brings a doubt for me. I think he did --

BASH: I mean, he obviously -- they took that, and they took it to another level when that debate finally happened, but --

GANGEL: Could I just note the word apologize. One of the rare times he said --

BASH: No, but he didn't say, I'm sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Yeah. I'm sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

GANGEL: And eventually, he puts out the video that he doesn't want to put out.

BASH: Prosecutors are now playing said video that Trump released that evening for Hicks. She says, she was present. And then Trump appears engaged as this is happening, watching Hicks on the screen and directly on the stand.

I want to bring in Alyssa Farah Griffin, like Hope Hicks. Alyssa served as White House Communications Director during the Trump administration. Alyssa, I know you were for a lot of this on another show. But I also know that you have been updated on what we're seeing in this dramatic testimony from Hope Hicks. First big picture. What's your reaction to what we've heard so far?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, a very interesting witness to call. Listen, I've actually been skeptical that Hope Hicks makes a lot of sense for the prosecution. And I say this because of this. Yes, Hope is a consummate insider. She was very close to Donald Trump, especially in this -- this juncture of the first campaign.

But this is a woman who I -- she's not partisan. She's not ideological, but she is fiercely loyal to Donald Trump. Even after January 6, she never publicly broke with him though we now know they haven't communicated in some time. And I think that what you can expect and what we've kind of seen so far is she's very direct and calculated and how she's answering questions.

BASH: Alyssa, I'm sorry to interrupt you. And I'm going to have to do this a few times because I want you and our viewers to see what's happening because she is on the stand as we speak. She was asked about the media coverage and media coverage, of course about the Access Hollywood tape. Hicks bites her lip quote, it was intense.

And then Hicks says, it knocked news out -- excuse me, knocked news of a category 4 hurricane out of the news cycle. It was all Trump all the time for the next 36 hours. She recalled. Go ahead, Alyssa.

FARAH GRIFFIN: Yeah. And I was just to say that I don't expect that she's going to say anything damaging to Trump beyond what she is legally obligated to answer. And I think we've seen this. She's kind of recalling memories, the tone of the campaign, the worries and anxieties they had there. But she's on two occasions said she didn't recall specific meetings.

I don't know that we can expect this to be a blockbuster testimony, but what we can expect is she's setting the tone of what the mood was like. How worried the campaign was about some of these allegations like Access Hollywood, and of course, this would have been yet another.

[12:25:00]

And she did paint a picture that Donald Trump's hands-on with press. I can confirm that. He did not like statements going out that weren't run by him first. He was very much somebody who was tuned into the news. He was constantly watching TV. He's a -- go ahead, Dana.

BASH: Yeah. No, I'm sorry. I just want to -- I want to ask you a follow-up to that question before I do. An update from inside the courtroom. Trump is leaning back now with his eyes closed and now Hicks as to released statements criticize -- criticizing Donald Trump raises Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney. Trump bobbed his head when she said their names. That is -- maybe the least surprising thing that's happened so far in this courtroom today.

But Alyssa, on the whole question of his involvement. Yes, it is. I don't think anybody would disagree with you that given her long relationship, despite the fact that they had a semi falling out after January 6, that she's not going to throw him under the bus intentionally.

But if the prosecutions intent is to establish Donald Trump as somebody who was very involved, as you just said, in order to make that connection between what Trump did with Michael Cohen, to try to make their case that he broke the law with regard to his records. Could she be helpful unintentionally on that?

FARAH GRIFFIN: Yes. I think that the biggest value she can add for the prosecution is explaining what she had. And I think we'll hear more of it of how hands-on he was with anything, any statement that went out about him, anything that was publicly stated, especially in response to a scandal. I mean, an analogy I can give of my time with him. During the George Floyd protests, he put out this infamous and horrific statement when the looting starts the shooting starts.

And I spent hours trying to get him to allow me to personally walk that back, or to do it in his own words, and he's somebody who is so direct. He's so hands-on. He will not let something go out under his name without hands-on approach. So, I think she could offer us some insight on that with regard to this specific scandal.

BASH: Oh. That's really interesting. We're waiting for another update from inside there. But just talk more broadly about Hope Hicks. And I mentioned -- I mean, you now famously quit the White House after some -- a little bit of time after the election in 2020. And you never looked back. She is somebody who has been pretty loyal. The only thing that has upset Donald Trump were some text messages, which she thought were private.

Alyssa, Hicks is looking at prosecutor Colangelo, and the jury while answering questions. She does not appear to have looked at Trump so far during her testimony. So, bounce off of that if you will, Alyssa. And also talk about their relationship and where she is right now. Forgive me. Before you do that, prosecutors put Mitch McConnell's statement after the Access Hollywood tape on the screen for Hicks and the lawyers. Trump leans in to look at the statement briefly. Go ahead, Alyssa.

FARAH GRIFFIN: Listen, this is going to be hard for Hope. Hope was always somebody -- she's very shrewd. She's thoughtful. She's calculated and how she operates. But she deliberately always wanted to be behind the scenes. She's not somebody who wanted to be in front of a camera. She's not somebody who, you know, as I said, publicly broke with Trump and she's led a largely private life since leaving the administration. And she was fiercely loyal to him.

Her career, she did not come up in politics. She came up a PR in New York, working with Ivanka Trump, and then was brought on to the campaign. And in many ways, she was seen as like an extension of the Trump family. She was close with the kids. She was deeply close to Donald Trump for his entire term in office.

And she's one -- she and I are one of a handful of staffers who did multiple stints in the Trump White House. She was first his comms director. Left for a job at Fox and then came back as counselor in this very senior sort of advising role. And Hope was someone that in the West Wing, if you needed to get through to Trump and you were struggling to, you would go to -- because she did. She knew him. He trusted her. I think this is uncomfortable for both of them. He really -- Hope is one of the few people he holds an incredibly high esteem. And I think to see her, you know, on the stand in front of him is probably very challenging and hard for him to see. And this reminder because he wanted her to come back and she basically had to convince her to come back to the White House that she's no longer, you know, with him publicly.

BASH: Yeah. And as you were talking to prosecutors or showing Hicks, Mitt Romney statement. Trump slightly shook his head and didn't look towards it. And as we speak, attorneys have approached the judge's bench after an objection. So, they're sort of haggling over what can and cannot be admitted into -- into evidence there. And as part of the questioning, of course, of Hope Hicks.

Thank you so much, Alyssa, for coming on and giving us that's really valuable insight into this relationship and into the broader inner workings of Trump world. See you soon. Thanks.

FARAH GRIFFIN: Thank you, Dana.

BASH: Kaitlan, I'm going to toss it back to you and our colleagues in New York.