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Former Trump Aide Hope Hicks Testifies In Hush Money Trial. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired May 03, 2024 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Thank you so much Alyssa for coming on and giving us this really valuable insight into this relationship and into the broader inner workings of Trump World. See you soon. Thanks.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you, Dana. Kaitlan, I'm going to toss it back to you and our colleagues in New York.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: Yes, Dana and right now Hope Hicks is walking through the Republican fallout after that Access Hollywood tape came out talking about high profile Republicans, Paul Ryan, Mitt Romney, Mitch McConnell, all putting out statements condemning Trump for his words on that Access Hollywood tape.

Trump is visibly reacting as this is happening inside the courtroom shaking or bobbing his head, as Hope Hicks is bringing up these figures. Of course, these are people, Paula and Laura that did not have deep respect inside the Trump campaign. They felt like anytime he did something that these Republicans would speak out and would criticize him.

This was different though this was kind of a pivotal moment where there was a real change and Republicans who thought there was no way Donald Trump could win the election.

And so the people who worked for him were weighing should I just quit now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

COLLINS: Because I don't think this is actually going to go anywhere. But what's the point? And as Trump is talking to one of his other attorneys, Susan Necheles, what is the point of bringing up the Republicans response to the Access Hollywood tape?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He was losing everything in terms of his chance of winning the White House. I mean, even Republicans were sort of holding their nose and maybe supporting him leaving, they were ready to jump ship after what they heard on the Access Hollywood tape.

So it all speaks to the enormous impact that had on the campaign, the pressure he was under, to change the narrative specifically when it comes to his behavior towards women. And why again, he and Michael Cohen would have been incentivized to pay stormy Daniels hush money in the days leading up to the election.

COLLINS: Because this comes out. They're worried about this fallout. And they're thinking, what else is out there.

LAURA COATES, CNN'S CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Thinking we can't handle one more thing. The word cheese was crisis, that it wasn't something that they bumped a hurricane she just talked about. It was 24/7 on this various way. We were all remember how significant this was.

Mike Pence possibly not wanting to be his running mate any longer. And of course, why did he want Mike Pence because he wanted the evangelical vote. He wanted women, he wanted suburban women. He wanted to build all of that as part of it.

And so the idea here that this would have been one more thing I keep using this reference of the straw that breaks the camel's back. The update we have right now is Trump is actually writing on a notepad while Bove and Blanche are at the bench, he showed it to Bove and then returned to defensive he has a say. He wants to know what's going on. He wants to input.

COLLINS: He's become more animated.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: It's been on the stand. That's what my sense is from our reporters. And Hicks is now saying that she reached out to Michael Cohen to run down a river, she heard about another tape, she testified quote, that would be problematic for the campaign.

COATES: Yes. Now that line again, we have to go back to why the motivation here is so important. It's not just that there were claims of a falsified business record. But it's the idea of why was this the reason that there was a departure from the ordinary catch and kill? Why did you want to make sure this did knock it out? Because the timing.

Now he is suggesting that it's about -- it's about the fact that he's a family man did not want this to impact his life and home, his personal life. But they're saying in the prosecution, no, this is about the campaign. You did this because of the campaign. And if it was done for you for the campaign, that's a contribution to your campaign.

It's not like just a carte blanche to do something else. It's a campaign contribution, i.e. the underlying crime here. So she's keeping these dots warm. But again, this is somebody who obviously is a reluctant witness. She does not want to be here through testimony.

She said, by the way, there was no such tape about the second one she's referencing, but he chased that down for me. So she's bringing in --

COLLINS: Michael Cohen.

COATES: -- Michael Cohen again, what he's doing as the fixer. At the end of the day, this is a very significant witness that she hasn't spoken to him in two years. He's not paying for her attorney. She's there because of a subpoena. She's talking about the connecting the dots and how intricate intricately aware he was in all of his uninvolved logins is all things he's doing.

This is not somebody the jury's going to say, well, oh, I guess there was $130,000 being paid out that he knew nothing about. What I'm waiting to hear from her, though is what came after the campaign. What -- after he won, why was there the concern still to pay and cover up or falsify a record? That's the key.

COLLINS: And we're watching I mean, Trump is reacting in real time as Hope Hicks is up there.

REID: Yes.

COLLINS: I don't think it's totally surprising. It's the closest person that he is to that has testified so far out of David Pecker, Keith Davidson, who he barely knew and Hope Hicks. And Trump is more frequently engaging with his attorneys. He's paying very close attention and watching the screens and even looking over at Hope Hicks as she's testifying.

And I should know they're now talking about the debate. That was right after the Access Hollywood tape came out debated by Anderson Cooper who is I should note that inside the courtroom right now, and ABC's Martha Raddatz.

REID: Clearly the most reliable narrator we've heard from so far, because of course, David Pecker, right, the tabloid King, who would clearly really admired Trump and was a little sycophantic himself.

[12:35:00]

Then of course we heard from some other against summary witnesses people who moved in testimony we also heard from Trump's a longtime 35-year secretary chronograph. She clearly built her entire career on her relationship with him. Then we heard from Keith Davidson, who clearly had memory issues. And the defense is making him out to be a career extortionist.

So hearing from Hope Hicks, hearing her narrate this story is going to be incredibly important for the jury. Now Hicks is saying right now that the Access Hollywood tape was raised during the debate as one of the first questions not surprising.

COLLINS: Thank you for everything.

REID: Exactly. How could it not have been but the pressure the campaign.

COLLINS: Trump had kind of had people spread this rumor that he was going to drop out of the race when this happened. And instead he brought the Bill Clinton accusers debate --

REID: Right, right, yes.

COLLINS: I mean, this is that moment, where, you know, she was talking about his instincts as a communicator, they kicked in, because he clearly was also in damage mode here when it goes back to the campaign.

COATES: Let me ask you because around the same time, I think people have the impression when you hear names like Michael Cohen or Kellyanne Conway or Jason Miller, which has been referenced in the courtroom today by various things, you automatically think about partisans, right? You think about people who have a vested political interest.

You have an update, of course, that she's confirming that there were reports regarding Trump's behavior with women after the debate. So you know, adding on to the perception in his mind, they pile on about his rapport with women, which brings up Rona and said that he's very sweet to women, very professional, et cetera.

But I wonder from your perspective, your experience, Kaitlin, thinking about this, should people be thinking about Hope Hicks as a partisan in this in this circle, or as somebody who was clearly the communicator? Because if she's the latter that upped her objectivity for a jury.

COLLINS: It's a great question, and it's definitely the latter. She's not an ideologue. She's not someone who was very MAGA, you know. I mean, she certainly did Trump's bidding and was super loyal to him. It's notable Ebro (ph) Jason Miller. He's actually in the courtroom today.

COATES: Yes.

COLLINS: He was one of the senior campaign aides in 2016. And prosecutors are now playing video again from Trump's October 2016 rally North Carolina, where he's denying your reports because as you were just reading that update, there were other women that's -- reports of other women and stories that started coming forward. Because Access Hollywood tape kind of wants to burst into public view, broke the dam where then other --

REID: Yes.

COLLINS: -- negative stories were true or not. We're coming to the surface.

REID: Yes, including Stormy Daniels and Keith Davidson resurfacing with her story. And they remember we're still here.

COLLINS: Exactly.

REID: And I believe prosecutors are going to get to a call that she was allegedly on where Cohen, Trump and Hope Hicks, I think he's just listening, talk about the fact that Daniels is shopping her story and that's going to be a critical part of it. Asked if Trump was concerned these reports could hurt his standing with voters hit Hicks replies yes.

COLLINS: And Judge Kiesel is also back with us. And judge as you're listening to this pivotal testimony from Hope Hicks, we'll see the impact that it has, but it's just certainly a moment to see someone, as we were saying is not someone who is a partisan, but someone who could be a more reliable narrator for these jurors as they're listening to this.

I mean, Hope Hicks is making very clear, I haven't heard her once testified that Trump was acting out of concern about his family, but that he was acting out of concern for how this could hurt him with voters.

DIANE KIESEL, FORMER NEW YORK SUPREME COURT JUDGE: Well, from what I can see, this appears to be clear testimony that is concerned about his election, his election prospects. One thing that I also think is very interesting was no matter how fiercely loyal she is, I haven't seen one indication that she has said things like, Oh, I can't remember I don't recall, there's no vague recollection here.

I've seen plenty of witnesses who want to protect someone. And this woman is not does not sound like one of them.

COLLINS: And she's making very clear that Donald Trump, I mean, she was the Communications Director of the White House, and the press secretary on the campaign, but he was also his own communicator. She talks about how important Twitter was to him that he signed off on every statement before she issued it.

She says that during the campaign, Trump posted all of his own tweets, or a staffer would only post things that he had personally approved. Obviously, a lot of these were denials of what we were hearing from the other women and the stories that came forward after the Access Hollywood tape was published.

KIESEL: Well, she's clearly linking him very closely to this. There's absolutely no doubt about that. And the other thing is, according to persons in the court, Mr. Trump is more animated today than he has been in the past with her testimony.

Trust me, jurors are looking at that. And you know, one of the things that jurors can do is they can use their observations in court when they're considering the evidence, so they may be inferring that he's concerned about this testimony, too.

COLLINS: That's a great point.

[12:40:00]

Do you believe that jurors are interpreted -- interpreting how Trump is responding where, you know, typically he has been leaned back in his chair. He's had his eyes closed for sustained periods of time. And the fact that he's animated that he's speaking with his attorneys passing notes paying close attention sitting up, you think that that resonates with jurors?

KIESEL: I have said this before, jurors do not miss a beat. They look at the defendant. They look at the reactions to testimony on the stand. They look at the judge to see whether the judge is reacting at all. That's why you've got to do your poker face when you when you're sitting on that bench. They are paying close attention, trust me.

COLLINS: Judge Kiesel, we all are paying close attention, I think especially Hope Hicks is now on the witness stand. Judge Kiesel, thank you for that. And an update from inside the courtroom or reporters who were there, that prosecution is now showing tweets, those posts that we were talking about earlier, Trump's denials, many of them they're now showing them to the jurors, including his attacks on the late Senator John McCain, him denying allegations that were being made by women.

And Paula Reid and Laura Coates, I mean, what this -- as they're getting at this line of questioning with Hope Hicks, he or she is someone who knows Donald Trump better than any other witness who's gotten on the stand. And now she's walking through and they're having her read the tweets of his denials. What is the significance of that?,

COATES: Well, remember, there is the character there's the judges point out before they're actually asking her essentially the jury consultant to be and a kind of a character witness, because that's part of the fold -- the fallout here. It's not just to show whether he's respectful to women or not.

The point actually is not even whether he indeed committed the acts he is alleged to have been accused of in terms of a sexual affair otherwise. The point is whether and Hicks said that he said she first by the way, heard of Karen McDougal, on November -- I remember 4/2016, when contacted by the Wall Street Journal.

So again, these names this is also -- this is helping the credibility of other witnesses who are putting this timeline together for this jury, but he is concerned about the fallout among voters and in particular women as well.

This was a it still is a very coveted, although not monolithic population of voters is trying to not alienate and antagonize and so they're concerned about why and what this would have done in that circumstance. She's talking about all these different aspects of it.

But now her knowledge of Karen McDougal, her knowledge of Stormy Daniels, what did she know about them? And did she go back to talk to Donald Trump about maybe at whether it was true or not? What were those conversations like? Remember she's not an attorney is would not have been privileged communications. He wasn't the president of the United States, it wasn't even an executive privilege conversation he could have alerted to. What he said in response to wherever she asked him about surely must come up.

COLLINS: Also, she first heard of Karen McDougal on November 4, 2016, David Pecker testified last week that he was on the phone with Hope Hicks, when she was a taxpayer funded White House official, along with the White House press secretary Sarah Sanders about whether to extend their agreement with Karen McDougal.

I mean, this is definitely not the last time she was going to hear of Karen McDougal and I should note Hicks is saying that she heard of other -- heard of Stormy Daniels one other time before Daniels was mentioned in that November 4th Wall Street Journal story. Dana.

BASH: Kaitlan, thank you. So we saw over the past hour or so the prosecution laying the basis for the Hicks testimony in and around Access Hollywood, and two things, Elie, one is that Donald Trump was very involved micromanaging even, and two that the focus was on the campaign. That was where their focus is.

And now they're turning that with that sort of building block. They're turning the questioning to Karen McDougal. And now Stormy Daniels.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAN ANALYST: So up until now, in the trial, we've only heard about the panic in the campaign from outsiders, from people at AMI, David Pecker, from the lawyers for starter, that the lawyer Keith Davidson, who represented Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal and they're all sort of drawing inferences are saying it seemed like there was concern I believe there was concern.

Now the jury is hearing it from the ultimate insider and she's walking them through chapter and verse of just how concerned Donald Trump personally was directly, just how concerned that campaign was. And that sets the stage for answering the question why, why did they pay off Stormy Daniels? Of course, the prosecution's argument is because they're worried about the campaign.

Let me anticipate something that's going to happen on cross exam whenever that begins. The lawyers for Trump are going to go back and say, Donald Trump was married. Donald Trump was a good father, a good husband, he cared about himself. He cared about his family. That's not going to undo the political motive as long as there is some substantial political motive. That's enough but watch for that on the cross.

BASH: Hicks now is saying Daniels came up when security guys were discussing a celebrity golf tournament on Trump's plane in 2015, Hicks got the email about the Wall Street Journal story on Trump's plane as they were landing in Ohio for a rally, Jamie.

[12:45:00]

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: So to me this is we have to see where it goes. But we have not known how much Hope Hicks knew about Stormy Daniels, except for a reference from the Michael Cohen case where court documents have an FBI agent saying that apparently she didn't know until November. This seems to me getting to the point of her knowledge of Stormy Daniels.

BASH: Jim.

JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: Absolutely. I mean, that's, that's what they're trying to show her that trying to show when she knew things, you know, how she was reacting, how the campaign's reacting, and then how involved Donald Trump was. And remember, this is all about communication.

I think it's important to note that what they're talking about is Donald Trump was very involved in communication, anything that went external, right. There are a lot of things that managers get involved in hands on, some are more important than others, they still have to show that he got involved in the payment in a significant way.

BASH: The email is being displayed for the jury. And again, just to sort of underscore what the jury is looking at right now is an email that Hicks said that she got from the Wall Street Journal about the Stormy Daniels situation.

CAROLYN KOCH, TRIAL AND JURY CONSULTANT: This is making me think about the work that I do when I'm working with lawyers. And I think one of the judges was a commentator. And I always tell lawyers, you really need a timeline. If you don't have a timeline, the jurors will make their own timeline. And they will, they'll ask the judge for a marker and a pad of paper.

And so the jury is going to bring it back to this case. And this what this case is asking them to decide, and that it raises all these questions, which is when were -- when does Cohen pay these women? And then when does the repay occur?

And the timing of the events is critically important to putting all the pieces together and figuring out what Trump's intent was. And now again, I'm just, you know, I work with the defense or I work with the other side.

And if I were Trump's defense, I would think like, I would say this guy doesn't care about anything. He does not care about bad press. He doesn't care about saying the wrong thing. And he's just that doesn't motivate him.

BASH: And Elie the email laid out the story about AMI buying McDougal's story of an affair.

HONIG: Yes. So Carolyn is exactly right. The timeline really matters here. The jury doesn't yet have the complete timeline. You're right. But let's make sure our viewers do.

So, the Karen McDougal story starts percolating around September two months or so into October before the election. It gets paid for and now the press starts learning about this. Then the Stormy Daniels case bubbles to the surface.

Michael Cohen pays Stormy Daniels $130,000. I think it's October 27 within a week or so of the election, then starting after the election is when Donald Trump and his organization reimburses Michael Cohen for those payments.

BASH: And I said before Stormy Daniels this evening, Stormy Daniels this email is about McDougal.

HONIG: Yes. BASH: I just want to correct on that. The Wall Street Journal reporter asked if Trump had an affair with McDougal and whether he or anyone close to him was aware of or involved in the contract between McDougal and Ami. Kristen, let me just continue from inside the courtroom.

Hicks says she believes she mentioned the email to Trump before his rally, because she was worried she wouldn't have enough time to respond otherwise/

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well interesting, because obviously she knew she had to run this by Trump before he went on stage. Because he would have to have the final say in this, which again, goes to the point that they're trying to make here, which was that he was in charge of anything that goes out again, still is to this day watching every single thing that gets put forward.

But I do think that it's interesting, Jim has continued to say, which is waiting for that moment where everything kind of comes together. And maybe it's not with Hope Hicks, it's maybe it's with Michael Cohen.

But right now, it does appear that some of this stuff seems to be running parallel and hasn't quite had an intersection yet. And they clearly, I mean, it's obvious to everyone I think what they're trying to say here and why they're on this line of questioning. But again, I don't think we've gotten to the intersection point.

GANGEL: It's a little confusing on the timeline. I'm checking our internal feed here. It appears at times that they're asking her both about Karen McDougal and about Stormy Daniels.

BASH: Right.

GANGEL: There's a mention that -- which is different from what we know from the Michael Cohen case that she had heard some mention of Stormy Daniels before but these two are sort of getting melded together a little bit here.

One other point about there are other people in the room and in the campaign at this time. Kellyanne Conway was the campaign --

BASH: And his son in law Hicks --

GANGEL: And his son in law --

BASH: -- says sent the email, forgive me, to Jared Kushner because of his role on the campaign. And because of his relationship with Rupert Murdoch hoping to quote by a little extra time Rupert Murdoch being the owner of the Wall Street Journal.

[12:50:00]

GANGEL: Of the Street Journal. So we don't know all of the witnesses yet. There may be other people from the campaign people in the room who get called.

BASH: Hicks says she called Cohen. Here we go, because she knew he had a relationship with David Pecker. She also called peckers office.

HONIG: They're trying to figure out what went wrong here. They're trying to do damage control on them.

BASH: And connecting it to Michael Cohen.

HONIG: And connect, right exactly, bringing Michael Cohen in, because all that Hope Hicks has said up to now is he was sort of this mysterious guy didn't know what he did. He was always around. Now she's bringing him directly into the response to these stories.

And I would hazard a guess that prosecutors have crossed check this with Michael Cohen's testimony to make sure they're not in conflict with.

BASH: And again, just to state the obvious. She was officially on the campaign.

HONIG: Yes.

BASH: Michael Cohen was officially not on the campaign.

HONIG: Right.

BASH: And if you go back to the whole charge are the series of charges against Donald Trump. The crux of it is that this was an illegal, well, first of all, that it was changing the records but also about an illegal campaign contribution as Hicks's testimony gets into the McDougal questions, Trump is sitting back in his chair with his eyes closed. Jim.

SCHULTZ: So back to the Jared Kushner. So Jared Kushner was on the campaign either another outside adviser to the campaign. So there's -- they're trying to establish OK, that there's she's having contacts, she's reaching out to anyone she can --

BASH: I'm sorry --

SCHULTZ: -- tried to do --

BASH: Jared Kushner? I mean, he wasn't getting a paycheck.

SCHULTZ: Correct.

BASH: But he was the fairy like adviser --

SCHULTZ: I get it. He was involved in the campaign as an advisor.

BASH: Yes. Yes. Got it.

SCHULTZ: That's what is said. But he was not paid staff on the campaign. He was not part of the campaign, that as far as the FTC was concerned, he's not part of the campaign.

BASH: OK.

SCHULTZ: Right. So --

BASH: I hear when he wasn't so good.

SCHULTZ: And that's important.

BASH: Jim, Hicks up her call with Pecker. I asked what was going on? Why was I receiving this email. Continue.

SCHULTZ: So, getting back to the point that they're trying to show that, you know, damage control, reaching out to anybody and everybody who had relationships with the press.

BASH: He explained that Karen McDougal was paid for magazine covers and fitness columns, and that it was all very legitimate. And that was for the cut -- that was what the contract was for.

HONIG: Of course, pecker testified earlier that really the purpose was to keep her quiet and they weren't actually hired -- hiring her as a fitness columnist than a magazine cover. That was the cover story. But here he is giving the cover story to Hope Hicks.

BASH: Again, was part of the campaign.

HONIG: Right. It was central to the campaign. It says Hicks said she had never had any discussions with Pecker before that date about McDougal. They're learning about McDougal as it breaks.

KOCH: I just keep going back to Davidson's testimony. And so far, it's a lot of hearsay testimony again, that's, you know, where's the beef? When -- is Trump going to testify? Probably not. He'd be smart not to. Michael Cohen is the one who's got to be the proxy. He's got to be the proxy. And Davidson said, and this just stuck in my head I who knows what's going to stick in the jurors? We'll find out.

But what stuck in my head was Cohen's frustration. I can't get my guy. He's in five states. I'll just do it myself. I think that's a break in the chain. I think it's a real problem. I'll just do it myself.

BASH: Problem for the prosecution?

KOCH: Yes, I really do. Because then if he -- if Cohen just does it myself, he's got to be Trump's proxy. There has to be some proof.

BASH: Hicks said she never had any discussions with Packer before the date -- that date about McDougal. Hicks says she thinks she called Cohen before Packer and he prompted her to call Packer for more information.

HOLMES: So I do want to note here because we had questions about that August 2015 meeting.

BASH: Michael sort of feigned. Michael Cohen sort of feigned, like he didn't know what feigned rather, like he didn't know what I was talking about.

HOLMES: So just to go back, remember, we didn't know how much Hope Hicks knew and how much she was involved in all this. And remember, there's a big question about that August 15 -- 2015 meeting with David Pecker.

BASH: Hicks says she sent draft responses to Cohen. So again, just to connect what we're seeing and hearing right now on the stand with what the prosecution is trying to do what they're trying to convince -- convict Donald Trump of on another case, trying to establish the fact that Cohen equals the campaign equals Donald Trump. And that was an intent here. The jury is seeing four draft responses she sent Cohen to reveal.

HONIG: Michael Cohen status as part of the campaign are not as important because prosecutors are saying, you know, even though he wasn't listed as a campaign employee, what he did was very much campaign focus. Trump's defenses tried to make the argument that no he was some outside guy.

I mean, I think any common sense and you all would know there's best, any common sense understanding of the situation was that Michael Cohen, Jared Kushner, maybe not on the campaign payroll, but very much accurate --

HOLMES: And it's very blurred.

GANGEL: And once again, the communications director for the campaign is sending Michael Cohen draft response.

[12:55:04]

SCHULTZ: But I think it's also important that Michael Cohen says, I don't know what you're talking about, call Pecker. Here's what's going on. Right? That's important because and then Pecker gives the answer that he gave. So as far as the campaign knew, Pecker's response was accurate, at least to this point in the testimony.

HONIG: By the way, Michael Cohen not being fully honest, once again from one of the prosecution's witness, I don't know what you're -- he knows what we're talking about. He's the one who did the deal.

BASH: All right, guys. Well, what a morning. This is really, really fascinating. Right now as we've been discussing, Hope Hicks is on the stand. She's testifying to her communications with Michael Cohen and stories about alleged Trump sexual encounters broke into public view. We're going to have so much more CNN special coverage, please don't go anywhere.

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