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Justice Department to Announce Indictment of Congressman Henry Cuellar; Hope Hicks Testifies in Trump Hush Money Trial. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 03, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:43]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Welcome to our special coverage of former President Trump's historic hush money criminal trial. I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington.

Phil Mattingly is outside of court in New York, where, Phil, here on day seven of testimony, jurors were hearing from one of the most trusted members of Trump's inner circle, Hope Hicks, of course, who was both a top aide on his 2016 campaign and in the White House when he was president.

And court, of course, now, Phil is just taking a lunch break, just getting started.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Brianna, but there have been a number of really critical moments over the course of the last several hours.

We know Hope Hicks had several phone calls with Michael Cohen, the Trump lawyer who facilitated the Stormy Daniels payment, in the closing weeks of the 2016 campaign. And we know from a prior witness Hicks was on a call discussing the Karen McDougal payment after Trump took office, when Hicks was then a White House official.

CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid is with me now.

Paula, some dramatic testimony. This is definitely one of the witnesses that everybody was waiting to hear from.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Set people up from what we heard so far. What were kind of the big moments for you?

REID: I think this has been the most significant witness so far...

MATTINGLY: Really?

REID: ... for many reasons.

One, even though Hope Hicks is not directly involved in any of the alleged criminal conduct, she was at Trump's side throughout really all the events leading up to this alleged falsifying of business records. She's also a very reliable narrator. She doesn't have an axe to grind with Trump.

She's also not, like David Pecker is, a tabloid king, or like Keith Davidson, someone who's involved in what may or may not be extortion of celebrities as a career. So, the jurors are really listening to everything she has to say.

And even though she doesn't recall some of the meetings that other people have testified to, like David Pecker testified, she was in and out of that critical 2015 meeting. She says she doesn't necessarily remember that. She certainly remembers that the impact of the "Access Hollywood" tape on the campaign. That's something she's talked a lot about, as we're inching closer and closer to Election Day.

So this has been, I think, the most significant testimony so far. I'm not saying which side it helps, but this is someone the jury can listen to and trust.

MATTINGLY: On the "Access Hollywood" tape, they played the tape. We all -- I feel like it was a flashback. Everyone was thinking about where they were when this hit if you were covering that campaign or covering the 2016 election.

But the import for the prosecutors here in that tape...

REID: Right.

MATTINGLY: ... playing that tape, and getting where Hope -- where Hope Hicks was and what she saw. Why?

REID: So the reason the "Access Hollywood" tape is so critical is because prosecutors will argue that, once that came out, the campaign was in freefall.

She testified that they were -- quote -- "in crisis." You read books of other people who were involved in the campaign, they talked about a nuclear bomb going off, many of them even consider jumping ship. It speaks to the enormous pressure on then-candidate Trump to suppress any other stories, particularly about illicit behavior towards women, which incentivizes them, right, to try to pay Stormy Daniels to go away, also incentivizes Stormy Daniels to push for money.

But that's why the tape is so critical, because prosecutors are going to say, look at what the campaign was facing. Clearly, the money that was paid to Stormy Daniels, it wasn't just about his family, if it was about his family at all. This was to give him some glimmer of hope for taking the White House.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

And it underscores that moment from the Keith Davidson testimony before the cross-examination, where he made clear there's no market for the Stormy Daniels story before the "Access Hollywood" tape.

REID: Yes. MATTINGLY: And that was the moment they felt like they could really push that forward.

What are we expecting? Like, clearly, they're moving towards something here.

REID: Yes.

MATTINGLY: You know the story and these prosecutors better than anybody. What are they moving toward?

REID: What's going to be fascinating is to see -- they're going to get through Election Day. We obviously know he -- know he wins.

But then she's going to be able to take us into 2017, when, of course, these documents were allegedly falsified. She's going to be able to talk about Trump's relationship with Michael Cohen, any mention of Stormy Daniels, the fact that she and Sarah Huckabee Sanders were allegedly in touch with David Pecker about extending Karen McDougal's catch-and-kill agreement.

She's going to be able to take us into the year 2017, which so far is something no witness has really been able to do in any substantive way. And that's really surprising, because, again, the alleged crime is falsifying business records. So, the fact that we're on day 11 and we haven't gotten to the winter of 2017, it's notable.

So she's going to take us there. And that's really what I'm watching and waiting for. What happens where -- when we're in the White House? Do you hear anything else about this, this hush money to her, hush money to Karen McDougal? What's going on with Michael Cohen and Trump? What's the relationship there? How involved is Trump in his business?

[13:05:13]

Because, of course, Michael Cohen was paid back, right, through the Trump Organization. So I think that's all potentially very critical and the first time the jury will hear about the actual time in question for those falsified documents.

MATTINGLY: And fascinating because it's coming from somebody that most people just haven't heard from at all.

REID: No.

MATTINGLY: Now, everybody seems to know -- if you followed the Trump campaign in 2016, you followed the Trump White House, you know about Hope Hicks. You know what people have said about Hope Hicks. Never really heard from Hope Hicks. She's testified in numerous cases when she's been compelled to do so.

Kind of walk through how important this moment is for her, as somebody who's not broken from Trump, has not spoken out, has not written a book, has not gotten a cable contract.

REID: Yes, they don't have the same relationship that they did after January 6. There was fallout because of text messages she sent on that day suggesting that they were now also complicit in domestic terrorism.

But it's a reminder, right, everyone, right, in Trump's radius, it seems, eventually winds up testifying in a court of law before Congress or themselves being indicted, and the enormous impact that his conduct has on the people around him.

And it was a very human moment when she got to the microphone and she said: "I'm really nervous."

I mean, imagine, you have this estranged former boss, someone you were very close to. She also hasn't looked at him, which I think it also speaks to just how difficult this is for her. But I think it's really -- it's very telling, right, of how difficult this is for most people to be involved in a case like this.

Clearly, Keith Davidson made a career of it. So did David Pecker. But a lot of these other folks, they don't necessarily want to be here. And, certainly, she doesn't. She said she's only testifying under subpoena.

MATTINGLY: Yes, and it's a good reminder. We talked about this when they were selecting the jury, just the stakes and the enormity of the moment for a normal human being.

REID: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Hope Hicks has seen it all in the last eight years, but still, for her, saying several times she was nervous, right?

Paul, we will get back with you shortly -- Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Phil, thank you so much for that.

Let's bring in our panel here, Elie Honig, starting with you.

Biggest takeaways so far of this Hope Hicks testimony?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So Hope Hicks is a very powerful witness so far -- we always have to say so far -- we're not even into cross-examination -- for the prosecution on one specific point, which is that, after the "Access Hollywood" tape dropped, the Trump campaign was in a panic. They were in damage control mode.

They were terrified about what this would do to the campaign. And what this does is, it sets up prosecutors to argue, when the Stormy Daniels accusation surfaced right after that, the campaign, Donald Trump, had every reason to want to silence her because of the campaign.

Hope Hicks, it strikes me as a very credible witness. She doesn't have a bias for or against Donald Trump. It seems like both sides see her as a truth-teller, but what both sides are going to try to do is pull out pieces of her testimony that are favorable.

So, to me, a strong witness for the prosecution, but also not the whole ball game. There's much more to the crime that they're going to have to prove through other sources. But she's really powerful on this one point.

KEILAR: Does it also speak to how, when there was a big situation or a crisis...

HONIG: Yes.

KEILAR: ... Donald Trump was not hands-off?

HONIG: Yes, very important point, because one of the key conflicts throughout this case is, was Donald Trump hands-on, micromanager, involved, or was he sort of at 30,000 feet, letting his people do their jobs?

When it comes to negative press around the campaign, he's very hands- on, as Hope Hicks' testimony is establishing. Also, Michael Cohen's involved, which is relevant as well, because the prosecution wants to say Michael Cohen was right in the middle of all this.

KEILAR: I want to go quickly to Anderson Cooper, who just got out of court. Court, of course, has taken a break. The jury had left the courtroom there, so they could go on their -- on the lunch break.

Anderson, you have been there all this time today watching. Tell us about your observations.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Well, it was fascinating to see Hope Hicks coming out. Obviously, the testimony before that was a little bit more -- more mundane, talking about documents, talking about e-mails.

But when Hope Hicks came in, you could feel sort of the electricity in the room. Certainly, people were perking up. She seemed very nervous when she first came on the stand. She seemed very hesitant. She did not look at -- directly at Donald Trump as she walked by him.

It wasn't clear to me whether he looked at her. I don't think he did. But I couldn't see from my vantage point. But she did not look at him. She went right to the stand. There was some -- she was a little bit away from the microphone.

And part of that may have been nervousness. But, also, once she actually got closer to the microphone and she could actually hear herself, she sent -- she commented the jury that now it was easier for her. And she certainly seemed more confident after that.

She's certainly been -- came off, I think, as very respectful, credible, certainly reticent. She's there under a subpoena, which was made clear when she first sat down. She clearly is not giving elaborate answers. She's giving the very basic answers.

[13:10:07]

And she did seem to kind of downplay a little bit or search for how to describe the -- to Elie's point earlier, how to describe the impact, the bombshell impact that the "Access Hollywood" tape had on the campaign. She kept turning to the word, she was concerned or very concerned, but sort of intimating that there was -- it was -- that was just one word she was kind of landing on, but that there was a huge concern, certainly, that she had, and maybe even more than that.

KEILAR: Yes, because, as she mentioned, Anderson, it had kicked a big storm, right, a big storm out of the news. She said, for 36 hours, it was just Trump, Trump, Trump.

COOPER: Yes, a Cat 4 hurricane, yes.

And she was also then questioned about the actual debate, which I happened to be the co-moderator of. And it was interesting to hear her. The question to -- from the -- the prosecutor was, at -- what -- was this brought up, the debate? Hope Hicks says, yes, at some point it was.

And then the moderator -- the prosecutor said, was it brought up? Do you remember when it was brought up? And she -- Hope Hicks said, she thought it was one of the first questions. It actually was the very first question. I asked that question.

But it was interesting to hear the importance of suddenly now of sort of answer -- asking that question, again, as another indication of just how big a deal this was, because I can tell you, from the debate preparation that we were doing Friday when that "Access Hollywood" tape came out, all the debate preparation we had done up to that point, everything changed after the "Access Hollywood" tape came out.

And it was a big question of, are we going to lead off the debate? I mean, there was really no question. We knew Friday, as soon as that tape came out, that that would be the lead question in the debate.

KEILAR: Yes, it is a rare story like that has this seismic feel about it. It did at the time. I remember going on air myself and before we actually had the tape, and we just had the transcript of what was said, it was pretty stunning.

And so I think it really speaks, Anderson, even though she's talking about being concerned and sort of landing on that word, there's really no escaping just how big of a moment this was for Trump.

COOPER: No doubt about it.

And, clearly, as soon as she received the question from the reporter about the existence of this tape, from then on, I mean, that dominated the campaign for days after and probably even longer, but, certainly, for that Friday, that Saturday. Sunday was the debate.

They were reeling and trying to figure out exactly what this meant and what the impact of it would be.

KEILAR: And, Anderson, can you get a sense of how Trump is reacting to some of these moments that he's hearing? We understand from Hope Hicks they haven't spoken in some time, but, clearly, she is trying to speak very positively of the former president. What is his reaction?

COOPER: It's very hard to see from certainly the vantage point that we're at. I mean, you can see on a monitor, but it's somewhat far. Some people actually have binoculars in the audience who are watching some of the -- the court -- court stenographer -- excuse me -- the court artist and also even some of the reporters covering it.

I couldn't see his face while Hope Hicks was testifying. I could see him whispering to Todd Blanche or to Emil Bove. He -- they -- definitely, there's a lot of communication between all three of them there on the stand. There was a recess at one point in which the former president stood up, kind of surveyed the crowd to see who was there.

But he doesn't give much reaction in the actual courtroom, or at least not that I could see today.

KEILAR: What was her demeanor like? Because we see the transcript, essentially, and the descriptions of what she's saying, but I understand that she's sort of had a -- she's been laughing at some moments. What did you see?

COOPER: Yes, I mean, she came in very sort of hesitantly, it appeared. She came in with an attorney. The attorney sat in the galley. She went up to the stand by herself.

She -- she clear -- she definitely seemed very nervous and she even said she was very nervous to -- she spoke to the jury, saying that she was very nervous. She definitely seemed to kind of calm -- relax into it a little bit more. But she was very cautious, I think, and careful in the words that she used while on the stand.

There wasn't a lot of -- yes, she wasn't extrapolating. She wasn't sort of elaborating on things. She tried to kind of -- I think she was being very careful in what she said.

KEILAR: And I understand, Anderson, I saw that Trump greeted you as he entered court. What can you say about that?

[13:15:03]

COOPER: Honestly, I did not see that. I -- somebody told me that.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: I was turning -- I had turned away. I did not know that he'd come in the room.

So, we -- we -- I saw him looking at me once during the break. But I did not communicate with him directly. I didn't think it was appropriate.

KEILAR: Very interesting moment, nonetheless.

Anderson, thank you so much for your observations, as you have been the eyes and ears there in court, where, of course, we do not have cameras. Anderson Cooper, thank you.

And coming up, we have so much here to dig into. We just heard, obviously, a lot of details about what it was like inside of the courtroom.

We have our special coverage of the historic first criminal trial of former President Trump continuing ahead.

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[13:20:13]

MATTINGLY: Breaking news just into CNN.

We have learned the Justice Department plans to announce an indictment against Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar of Texas. Now, you may recall his home and campaign office were raided by the FBI in 2022.

Let's get straight to Melanie Zanona on Capitol Hill.

Mel, we have seen a statement from the congressman, I believe. I don't know that we have seen the actual indictment yet. What do we know about these charges?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, the nature of the charges are still unclear at this moment. It has not been made public, but what we do know is that both the congressman and his wife are expected to be indicted by the DOJ later today.

And the congressman is expected to appear in court in Texas later this afternoon. This development was first reported by NBC and confirmed by my colleague Haley Talbot.

Now, we also know that the FBI did raid his home, as you mentioned, and his campaign office back in January of 2022. Again, unclear if that raid is indict -- related to the indictment today. But Cuellar says he is innocent.

Let me just read you quickly part of his statement.

He said: "I want to be clear that both my wife and I are innocent of these allegations. Everything I have done in Congress has been to serve the people of South Texas. The actions I took in Congress were consistent with the actions of many of my colleagues and in the interest of the American people."

Now, he goes on to say that he proactively sought advice from the House Ethics Committee here on Capitol Hill, as well as a national law firm. And he also said that he tried to seek out federal prosecutors to try to explain -- quote -- "the facts" and his side of the story.

But he said they were not interested in discussing the case. Now, it's unclear what this will mean for Cuellar politically. He is a moderate Democrat. He represents a very important and key district along the southern border. And he has represented that seat for nearly 20 years.

But he maintains that he will continue to run and that he insists that he will win in November -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right, nothing like breaking news on a Friday on Capitol Hill, when both chambers are out of session.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTINGLY: Mel, we appreciate you scrambling. Keep us posted as more -- we learn more -- Brianna, back over here.

KEILAR: All right, Phil, so back now to the latest on former President Trump's criminal trial in New York.

Our panel is back with us here.

And something very interesting, Audie, that you were bringing up in the break, which is about Hope Hicks' legal representation.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Right, which is that it's not paid for by Trump or necessarily a super PAC or anything like that.

And I think that has always been kind of a little bit of a question for me with witnesses. People are also describing their relationship as being a lot cooler than it was. And the notes from our courtroom team are a lot about how they were not looking at each other, the way they were not interacting.

And I think this is remarkable, given the role she had in his life leading up to this point.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think she's also important on the McDougal story.

I mean, she -- she called Michael Cohen, testified that she called Michael Cohen about this. And it explains, I think, the panic we saw when David Pecker testified, the panic that Michael Cohen had when he was trying to deal with the financing for McDougal. And we -- when we heard from the banker about how panicked he was.

So you sort of see this chain of events, where she calls Michael Cohen, like, what -- is this real? What do we do about this? And then he sort of tried to toss it off. He was not truthful to her, or so she testified. And then we see it from the other point of view, through Pecker and the banker, that -- or Davidson, actually, that he becomes the...

KEILAR: The then-lawyer to Stormy Daniels.

BORGER: He becomes -- the lawyer to both of the women.

KEILAR: And McDougal.

BORGER: That he becomes increasingly panicked. And now we know why. This -- he knew this story was going to come out. And she was asking him questions about it.

She also said that she asked Donald Trump about it. I don't know what he said.

CORNISH: We got a real sense of what the kind of press war room is...

BORGER: Yes.

CORNISH: ... for Trump during that period, which, for reporters, it was a little bit opaque, right?

Like, people are texting you. Maybe -- they say it's not a big deal. They deny it. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not.

But now you're seeing how they scurried around, that they really did think that these stories about women would be a problem, especially in the cumulative, and that they thought they could reach out to, say, "The Wall Street Journal" to say -- to buy some time.

BORGER: Right.

CORNISH: They were pulling on every media relationship that he had

And it gives you a real glimpse into sort of how they approach these things.

HONIG: Yes, up until this point, we have got a fairly clear view, but from outsiders. It sure looked like the campaign was worried. And, logically, they would have been worried.

Now we're getting the real inside, and they're beyond worried. They're panicked. And just to understand how this fits into the case, prosecutors -- it's not a crime to be worried. It's not a crime to be in panic mode. It's not a crime to pay hush money.

[13:25:04]

Prosecutors have to prove the reason they paid Stormy Daniels was to benefit the campaign. That's part of what they have to prove. They also have to prove that the documents were falsified. Hope Hicks knows nothing about that, nor would she or should she know anything about that.

So this is an example of, I think, a powerful, productive witness for the prosecution, but also fairly limited in what she does. She gives them one important building block. But it's not as if this is the smoking gun or this is the witness, case over, prosecutors win.

But she's an important piece of the puzzle.

KEILAR: Because it goes to this issue of intent...

HONIG: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: ... which is so important, and also that this wasn't just Donald Trump trying to protect his family...

HONIG: Right.

KEILAR: ... from -- or -- or being found out by his family about what may have been going on. It was about something bigger, and it was the political gain or really trying to stem any kind of loss.

HONIG: And a natural question that the jury will likely have and probably our viewers have is, well, what if there was some sort of mixed motive?

You're not going to be able to put a number on it, but what if Trump was 80 percent concerned about the campaign and 20 percent concerned about his wife and his family? The answer under the law is, it doesn't have to be 100 percent. Prosecutors have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a substantial motivating factor was the campaign.

And I think -- if I can editorialize or give a subjective view, I think prosecutors have made that part of the case almost beyond any question. How could the campaign in October of 2016 not have been a substantial factor in why they wanted to silence Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal?

BORGER: Of course. And Donald Trump -- when your campaign is in panic mode and you're the candidate, you're in panic mode, or maybe it goes the other way around. You set the tone.

And when you see that Donald Trump is concerned about it, then the campaign is concerned about it. I mean, she said she knew immediately that this was going to be a huge story. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

And they were trying to figure out how to deal with it. And then the notion that she's calling Michael Cohen, who earlier she said she wasn't sure what his role was and he didn't have any role in the campaign, he was a reflexive phone call, because she knew, if anyone knew about these things, it would be Michael Cohen.

KEILAR: It would be Michael Cohen.

BORGER: Yes.

KEILAR: So much more ahead, if everyone can stand by for me.

Juan -- Judge Juan Merchan started court today by explaining to the former president that a gag order does not prevent him from testifying, something that he has claimed.

We're going to talk more about that when our special coverage continues right after this.

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