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Former Trump Aide Hope Hicks Finishes Testifying; Hope Hicks: Trump Told Her About Cohen Making Payment. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 03, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Welcome back to our special coverage of this major legal drama playing out in Trump's hush money trial. Hope Hicks just excused from the stand, but not before the former first lady, Melania Trump, came up in testimony. Hicks was asked about whether Trump was concerned about how the McDougal story, the story about former playmate Karen McDougal, would affect things at home.

She answered, quote: President Trump really values Mrs. Trump's opinion, and she doesn't weigh in all the time, but when she does, it's really meaningful to him. And, you know, he really, really respects what she has to say. I think she was just concerned about what the perception of this would be. I know that was weighing on him.

Let's talk to Paula Reed a little bit about this moment. Paula, this, it was interesting to see on cross-examination where Trump's attorney went here.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well done here by the defense attorneys. They really took their opportunity to drive home one of the key points of their defense, which is that the money that was paid to Stormy Daniels was meant to keep her quiet about the affair, though not to help Trump's chances in the election, but instead to protect his family. And here, Hope Hicks helping them with that defense, saying, yes, then-candidate Trump, he was concerned about how things would play with these stories in terms of his wife.

He was concerned when the McDougal story came out. He didn't want newspapers being delivered to his residence. He didn't want his wife to see it.

So this helps the defense amplify their argument that the reason that all of these hush money deals were brokered was to protect his family, not to protect his chances of winning the White House. So Hope Hicks was able to help the defense there. They also asked a lot about Michael Cohen.

And like pretty much all the other witnesses in this case, Brianna, Hope Hicks doesn't have a lot of very nice things to say about Cohen, sort of suggesting that he didn't have a role in the campaign, but he tended to meddle. Yes, he was known as a fixer, but it's usually because he had broken something. So, again, not a flattering statement about Cohen, who is, of course, someone who will take the stand, will be a very complicated witness for prosecutors. It seems the one thing that all sides of this case agree on is that nobody has anything nice to say about Michael Cohen.

KEILAR: Yes, that is certainly something they have in common. Judge Juan Merchan just saying, all right, jurors, we're going to call it a week. So that is the end of the week.

Paula, where you are in court, but of course, more to come. Paula Reid, thank you so much for that latest from New York. Let's talk about the impact of this testimony and of this week.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So here's what I think. And it's interesting that the prosecution did not take the opportunity. They could have redirect examined her and chose not to.

There's a couple of reasons why. The two big sort of blows to the prosecution that came up were number one, this money was, these payouts were made not just for the campaign, but to, you know, hide from Donald Trump's family, personal reasons, one. And two, Michael Cohen had a practice of going rogue and acting independently of Donald Trump.

I guess that the prosecution felt that neither of those things are that revolutionary in terms of the case. Those are the main arguments the defense has been raising all along and will raise. They raised in their opening statement. They will raise in their closing.

It's not worth going back and questioning a witness that's already crying to try to patch up stuff that is sort of at the heart of the defense's case. It was fine to leave it be.

JAMES SCHULTZ, CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: I think the other thing that came out at the end here was that he wasn't part, that he was never intended to be and was not part of the official campaign. Right. They made that very clear.

KEILAR: That Michael Cohen was not.

SCHULTZ: Right. And that Michael Cohen was a part of the official campaign.

KEILAR: He was interjecting himself.

SCHULTZ: He would interject himself. There's no way that Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, Hope Hicks or anybody else wanted him in that room or anywhere near that campaign. No doubt about that.

And she made that clear today. And then in that context, said he from time to time went rogue. So if you put the rogue comment in that context, that's pretty good testimony for the defense.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST : Until Hope Hicks, we really haven't heard much about concern for the family. And she raised it. And, you know, my question is, was she a better witness for the defense or the prosecution? And, you know, that really helps the defense when she says he was concerned about Melania and didn't want to be embarrassed and, you know, wanted to keep the newspapers out of the house, et cetera, et cetera.

[15:35:00]

But she also gave some information that showed Trump's awareness of what was going on. And even though he lied to her and said Michael Cohen did the payments out of the goodness of his heart. So she also, you know, helped the prosecution to a great degree. So it's kind of hard to say where she came down. And I don't know whether the prosecution is happy with her testimony or not.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I think all week we've heard like these two stories, right? Because cases fundamentally from attorneys, no offense, are it's storytelling. That with prosecutors saying, look, this is what it is. Defensing, this is what it is. And I don't want to go so far as to say that Hope Hicks was damaging for one versus the other, because the fact still remains that Cohen was a go- to phone call for Trump.

And at the end of the day, this is a case. The defendant is Trump. It's not actually Michael Cohen. And so it'll be interesting how this conversation plays out the next couple of days with the witnesses as we get closer to Cohen himself.

But he's not on trial, right? And fundamentally, just because he wasn't part of the campaign, it doesn't mean that Trump himself didn't go to him when he had concerns.

But of course, it's sort of fascinating to see the inner workings of this, right? Someone being dismissive of a person in the inner circle and seeing those dynamics play out.

KEILAR: Such an important point, because you know who else doesn't always do what the campaign wants him to do? Donald Trump himself. Everyone, thank you so much.

If you could stay with me and stand by here. We are expecting to hear from former President Trump in a moment. We're going to monitor those remarks. So stay with CNN.

[15:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Welcome back to our special coverage of the criminal trial of former President Donald Trump. Court is over. It's ended early for the day following dramatic testimony from longtime Trump aide Hope Hicks.

Hicks becoming emotional at one point after what an insider described as a critical moment. She was asked about Trump's assessment of the hush money story and its fallout.

Her response, quote: It was Mr. Trump's opinion that it was better to be dealing with it now and that it would have been bad to have that story come out before the election.

For some more perspective now, we're joined by presidential historian Jeffrey Engel to talk a little bit more about this. And Jeffrey, as we're approaching the end of this second week of testimony, what is your view of what you're watching unfold?

JEFFREY ENGEL, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: You know, I got to say, it's really impressive to me that most of the people commenting on the trial are, of course, lawyers, prosecutors, defendants. They talk about motions. They talk about appeals. They talk about jury selection. But the truth of the matter is this case is exactly what the people who wrote the Constitution would have worried about for a person who wanted to become president.

Because whether or not Donald Trump is convicted by this trial, he still would meet the standard that they use for impeachment, which was high crime and misdemeanors, which is to say something which is an offense against the people, an offense against the nature of the state.

So by essentially misleading voters, he's doing exactly what the people who wrote the Constitution worried about. And in fact, they pointed out that a man who would mislead the voters once is more than likely to do it again and again.

KEILAR: This is really such a strange moment. I mean, there really is no precedent for it. I wonder, what do you think when you think about how history may judge this moment?

ENGEL: You know, one of the problems with thinking about Donald Trump as a historian is that we're always talking about maybe what his biography would look like, you know, what his obituary might look like. And we keep rewriting the first paragraph.

I mean, first, it's, you know, an unprecedented person to become president without any government or military experience. Then it was first president impeached and second time impeached. So I think that this trial is really going to demonstrate that, you know, it's really impressive that most presidents in American history, like the previous 44, managed to be in office and to enter office without running afoul of the law.

I mean, the truth is, and again, the founders talked about this at the Constitutional Convention, the kind of person who would break the law is the kind of person that should not be considered for this kind of office.

So from their perspective, simply being indicted or impeached, certainly, but simply being indicted would demonstrate a fundamental flaw in character and a fundamental flaw in a person's honor and that person's virtue, more importantly, that would prevent them from being a good president.

So I have a hard time picturing the founders thinking in any way, shape or form about this scenario because they would have thought, how could Americans have gotten to this point? KEILAR: Yes, and yet increasingly, the polls show they are more and more apathetic about what something like this means, which is obviously incredibly curious, I'm sure, for you as you look at this. Jeffrey Engel, thank you so much for being with us.

We appreciate your perspective and stay with CNN for some more of our special coverage. We'll be right back.

[15:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: The day, the week now over this week anyways, in the hush money criminal trial of former President Trump, he just spoke to cameras as he left court. Here's part of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I was, I was very interested in what took place today, but I just have to say we have a country to build. We have to rebuild it. Our country has gone to hell. We're a nation in decline. And we can -- we cannot let that happen to the USA. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:50:00]

KEILAR: All right, Trump also ripped into the D.A. and made a pitch for Election Day, saying the most important day in our nation is November 5th. Let's talk about this with our panel here. He always -- it's, it's a very hard situation. I will say the lighting does not help much. And just so people know when they're looking at this to try to get a sense of Trump, if he looks tired, sort of what his demeanor is, Audie. But I wonder, based on the descriptions that we've heard inside of court and what we just saw there, sort of what your interpretation of how this day, how this week has gone for Trump.

CORNISH: That's a lot of questions, but I will say.

KEILAR: Take them all.

CORNISH: Coming off of his Wednesday campaigning and getting back into the courtroom. He ends this week coming out, not wanting to bash someone who is a longtime friend and a longtime person who worked for him and instead uses it to campaign. Right.

And I don't know if that means he is finally hearing the judge in terms of the gag order, but it is a way that he's using his time differently than we had seen, let's say, in the first week.

BORGER: I mean, his whole point is what his points usually are, which is we have to rebuild the country. He said the country has gone to hell. And, you know, he's -- he has lately taken the opportunity to sound more like a candidate and bash Biden and bash the Democrats. And you know -- CORNISH: And, you know, he knows the split screen has been the campus protests.

BORGER: Exactly. And yes. And right.

And so he's doing that more and more. I think he said he was interested in the testimony today. And I think he was because Hope Hicks had been so close to him. And it was clear that while she helped the prosecution, she also helped the defense. And I think he was probably pleased with that.

KEILAR: You think he really helped the defense, Jim?

SCHULTZ: I think she did. I think she helped the defense. You know, the last thing they heard was about the Michael Cohen was about Michael Cohen. How he wasn't part of the campaign. He went rogue. He wasn't welcome in the campaign. He only spoke on behalf of the Trump board and not on behalf of the campaign.

Those were all things she said at the end after giving very believable testimony. After, you know, breaking up a little bit on the stand and then coming back and doing this. It's the last thing a jury heard at the end of the week.

WILLIAMS: Yes, you know, I think you can always listen to a cross- examination and say that the witness helped the defense because that's the point of cross-examination. Anybody's testimony is going to have some holes in it.

And again, I get back to the point you made before the break. The reason why prosecutors did not question her a second time was that there was little to be gained and little new ground to be trod because these were all arguments that I think prosecution ought to have been ready for, namely that Michael Cohen went rogue, Michael Cohen's got credibility issues, and, you know, it's generally not fatal.

So she made the central point that the prosecution's attempting to prove, which is that number one, she knows that Donald Trump and Michael Cohen met.

And number two, they were mindful of the impact of these stories on the campaign. That's what the prosecution sought to get. The defense could have their way with her.

But I think hinging on individual pieces of testimony or questions, I think in a five week long trial is a great way to get yourself --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: She also made the point that Trump was somebody who paid attention to the details of everything that was going on in the campaign, everything that was going on in the campaign. And I think that's really important because he would also pay attention to everything that was going on with Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels.

KEILAR: The idea that he would be detached is sort of not in character. And she was painting exactly that very clearly.

BORGER: Exactly, exactly.

KEILAR: It was an emotional day. And I think it's important to know some of the emotional dynamics behind her testimony, too, which is that, Audie, she was, I think, complimentary in some ways to Trump. But this is also someone, she hasn't talked to him for a couple of years. And after January 6th, there were texts that came into the record where she'd been very critical of Trump, saying that he'd thrown -- these are private texts -- he'd thrown away his legacy, and that they were all going to be perpetually unemployed people associated with him, which obviously made him very unhappy.

CORNISH: Right. I mean, for some context here, as we talked about earlier, she has had to testify about her experiences within that White House and working for Trump several times now. And you're referring to the testimony regarding January 6th.

And it was reported that the sort of Trump world was unhappy when those texts went public, where, you know, you're supposed to kind of be this bulletproof shield, you know, in terms of messaging. And there it was revealed that they thought it was a bad day, right, and no matter how it's been spun since.

Fundamentally, when you talk about emotion, I think it's because so much of this week has been kind of this evidence of like, the banker said this, and then the secretary said that. They're all things that just sort of establish facts.

[15:55:00]

And so all of a sudden to have a witness crying, for whatever reason that might be, I have zero interest in speculating why, but it was a very sudden and unexpected moment for all of the people who have been watching this so closely.

KEILAR: A very dramatic ending to the day, to the week. And to quote the judge, all right, panel, we will call it a week. That will be the end of our week here.

Thank you so much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Today, one of former President Trump's closest confidants back on the stand. And it was a day of drama. Hope Hicks calling the Access Hollywood tape damaging and a crisis for the campaign.

[16:00:00]

But she also testified that at least once Trump did tell her about the hush money payment at the center of this trial. Trump even becoming emotional at one point following what an insider described as a Perry Mason moment when she said Trump thought it was better for the hush money payments to be revealed after the election than before.

Our special coverage continues right now on "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper.