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CNN Live Event/Special

Donald Trump's Hush Money Trial, Former Executive of Trump Organization Testifies; After Trump Violates Gag Order Once More, Judge Finds Him in Contempt. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired May 06, 2024 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN NEWSROOM ANCHOR: And Jeff McConney answer for what Michael -- Allen Weisselberg, I should say, was doing during this time here. Allen Weisselberg can't testify. Jeff McConney can.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: He cannot. And again, that's an important point here in terms of the credibility of the witness, and some -- the juror wants to see. They're probably asking the same questions a lot of us are. How does $420,000 -- how does a $130,000 payment turn into a $420,000 repayment?

ACOSTA: Yes.

COATES: And of course, I've got my tablet with my --

ACOSTA: Let's take a look.

COATES: -- (INAUDIBLE), my legal pad. So, how does the $420,000 actually translates to other things. So, here's how it breaks down. You got the $130,000 payment to Stormy, right? That's the one that we all have known about. Then you've got the $180,000 payment to Cohen. Now, what does that actually include? That includes what he would have to report for his reimbursements as income. And so, Trump, I let you take the tech (ph) on an extra $180,000 so that Cohen would still have the money he was owed after his taxes.

Then you've got a $60,000 bonus as well to Cohen and apparently something about $50,000 to a tech company as well that helped to boost the polling and the ratings. You add all this up, and I'm hoping my math is correct here, and about $420,000.

But you -- at the end of the day, you've got 11 invoices, 11 checks, and you've got the ledgers. But again, what's important to think about is the calendar year. All these different dates, all the different moments, it wasn't a one-time payment. It was intended to be tributed over time.

Now, the whole core here is about these false entries, because if these were not actually legal fees, then you go right back over to what is being charged and what has to be proven here. You're talking about the intent to commit another crime, to defraud the other crime, et cetera, and this false entry, that's the key here. And we've got the documents that would be needed, of course, to do so. This is this witness talking about what they're seeing. They are talking about the handwritten notes. They're talking about the different bank statements as well. And again, this thing right now, McConney is saying that the red finch line item on the document is for tech services as we went back to the $50,000.

ACOSTA: Yes.

COATES: It's grossed up, it's intended to offset taxes as well. This all, again, the word intended there, right, what do you need? Intent.

ACOSTA: Right.

COATES: Intent to defraud.

ACOSTA: Yes.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY, AND FORMER FEDERAL AND NEW JERSEY STATE PROSECUTOR: Your math is spot on, I double check that --

COATES: Thank you because I was like --

HONIG: I was --

COATES: -- I was nervous.

ACOSTA: I understood there would be no math.

HONIG: Here's how these plays into the prosecution theory. If you were ordinarily paying a lawyer, if a lawyer sent you a bill, said I did $130,000 worth of work, you pay him $130,000. You don't say, and here's $180,000 extra just to cover your taxes that you may have to pay on that. That's what was done here. So, the prosecution is going to argue, that was unusual and that shows you this was not in fact attorneys pay.

ACOSTA: And sometimes bookkeepers are used to nail mob bosses and so on, I mean --

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST AND FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: And let's remember, it all comes down to the evidence. So, according to the indictment, this actual handwritten -- these handwritten notes that lay out the payment details are written on the back of one of Michael Cohen's bank statements, and they were allegedly written by Allen Weisselberg, who we've already heard this witness identify Allen Weisselberg's handwriting. So, that's likely what the prosecution is building to here.

ACOSTA: Yes. The --

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Can I just add, this is -- you know, we may think that this is dry, but I think this really speaks to the documents part of this case. This is the black and white. This is not Michael Cohen and his credibility. And there were two things that McConney -- that the prosecution had him say.

He said, I had lunch with Allen Weisselberg every day for three decades. And I --

ACOSTA: Yes, Cohen was complaining that his previous year bonus wasn't large enough. That's what McConney is testifying to right now. Sorry, go ahead.

GANGEL: So, the point is, they can't have Allen Weisselberg, not because he's in jail. You can bring people in from jail to testify, it's because they don't think he will testify in a credible way. So, McConney is the cutout, let's say, for Weisselberg.

ACOSTA: Yes.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: For the rest -- one issue with this, which is that he's saying this as somebody who knows Weisselberg. And -- but he doesn't seem to know -- Weisselberg is just telling him stuff and he's repeating what Weisselberg said. I mean, I don't know if that impacts how that comes out, but it's not as though Weisselberg is giving him any kind of readout of what exactly it's for.

ACOSTA: McConney says, the $35,000 was to be wired to Cohen monthly, beginning February 1st, 2017. That is after Donald Trump was sworn in as President of the United States. The scheme was continuing even while Trump was in office, John. I mean, fascinating. Just fascinating. Yes.

JOHN KING, CNN "INSIDE POLITICS" ANCHOR: Again, that gets to the politics part of it that, is this what you want in your president? But to the chronology part of this and the who's in charge part of this, you have McConney making the case. Weisselberg was for this. And if Weisselberg was for it, Mr. Trump knew it. That's what this testimony is about.

ACOSTA: I saw the "Untouchables". The testimony of the bookkeeper was very crucial to that.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, AND FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: That's exactly how it happened.

ACOSTA: That's exactly how it happened.

All right. In just a few moments. Right now, the prosecution verifying how things worked inside the Trump Organization with a critical documents witness. Jeffrey McConney just identified the handwriting of Allison -- Allen Weisselberg. Saying, he's been looking at his handwriting for 35 years. I'd say, he's an expert on that. Much more coverage -- special live coverage just ahead, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN, the world's news network.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE AND CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: You're watching CNN's special live coverage. A convergence of politics with law and order in a Manhattan courtroom this morning as the judge is threatening to incarcerate the former president if he violates his gag order again after doing so 10 times already.

Moments ago, the Trump campaign commented on that warning from the judge, saying it is a third world authoritarian tactic, instead of just a normal courtroom one that most defendants all face. We're also closely tracking the testimony of the Trump Organization money man, Jeff McConney.

[10:40:00]

He's not a household name, but right now he is walking the jury through why he mistakenly wrote down a dollar amount this way. He said, "I made a boo-boo". A brief moment of levity in a very serious morning so far that is all about what is at the heart of this case.

And I've got Paula Reid and Karen Friedman Agnifilo back here with me. And this document is notable because what they are basically walking through is how this longtime Trump organization employee and Allen Weisselberg, who is sitting in prison right now at Rikers, how they were going to structure the payment to Michael Cohen? And how much it was going to be Michael Cohen demanding more money because he's had his bonus the year before.

But what's notable is he had the initials DJT on this document as they were writing through what this was going to look like.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: So, if I'm a member of the jury, sitting in the box, listening to all of this, it seems chaotic and confusing, a little haphazard. Now, McConney is being shown an e-mail that he sent in February 2017, reminding Cohen to send an invoice.

He also just testified that it was customary for employees to submit invoices to get reimbursed. Because they're talking about, you know, the $130,000 payment that Cohen made to Davidson, Keith Davidson, Stormy's lawyer. Then they're talking about how he's upset with his bonus. Then they're trying to offset some taxes. They're just throwing all these numbers down.

I think what the prosecution really needs to do right now is go step by step through how these business documents were intentionally falsified. Because I think a lot of people, for example, you know, when Cohen has to submit this invoice, when we do our expenses, you know, you may not always be super specific or you could be general, right? Say, news gathering, instead of what assignment you're going to.

So, right now, in this critical moment, prosecutors really need to slow their roll a bit and walk jurors through how they believe this was intentional falsifying of business records. COLLINS: Karen, do you think it's confusing for the jury as they're walking them through, you know, as we've seen these detailed updates of how they're walking them through this evidence of the documents?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST AND FORMER MANHATTAN CHIEF ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: So, it can be, and that's why you're going to see them ask what seems like the same question over and over again. Because it does get dry and confusing, and numbers can sometimes confuse people.

But I think Paula makes a good point about the expenses. When you when you put in an expense for something, you say what it is and you get reimbursed for it. That's very different than if you're getting paid income, right? And then you have to pay taxes on income.

And so, that is going to be a critical piece here about what this is. And I think the prosecution is going to be able to pretty clearly show that this is false. But what's missing is the link to Trump.

COLLINS: Well -- and what they're saying is that they would go through, one, he testified about Trump being involved in everything, and how that structure changed after he became president and it was Donald Trump Jr. and Allen Weisselberg that had to be the two signatures on any invoice above $10,000 that they were paying.

And now he's walking through how he sat down with Allen Weisselberg and they went through. And Allen Weisselberg said, we need to get Michael Cohen money.

REID: Yes, it sounds like how I would imagine things happen at the Trump Organization. Again, a little haphazard. they're scribbling things down on a notepad. And it's going to be interesting to see which way McConney goes in terms of how helpful he is to prosecutors. Because every time he talks about how involved Trump was, he draws a line at 2017, which is of course when Trump went to the White House.

Now, we know Trump's signatures are on this -- these checks. But I know in speaking with sources that the defense team also believes that McConnell will be a helpful witness to them to illustrate how uninvolved Trump was at that time. They're also going to argue that Michael Cohen, during the time in question for whatever invoice he submits, that he was doing legal services so that he is saying this was part of a retainer agreement or for legal services was not an outright lie.

Now, as you've noted, Rudy Giuliani on the record saying other things but I think they might be able to undercut Rudy Giuliani pretty easily You know one of Trump's lawyers right now, Susan Necheles, is speaking with the former president at the defense table The defense lawyers are right now with the judge. They're arguing about bringing in an exhibit.

COLLINS: Yes. And Karen, can we talk about the two different styles that we've seen from the prosecution and the defense? Because the prosecution -- and I was in the room last week. Basically, seems to be telling a story. Crafting a narrative to the jury. And they will have these sensational witnesses, and then they will have someone like a controller at the Trump Organization walking through his lunches with Allen Weisselberg and how they, you know, did invoices and what that looked like.

The defense often has gotten up there and been pretty straightforward and short in their questioning and direct. And so, I wonder, how are they thinking about what they're going to do when it's their turn to cross-examine Mr. McConney.

AGNIFILO: And so -- always very important when you're developing a cross-examination to think of two things. Number one, what can -- how can you use that witness to help you? And this is somebody who they're thinking, he has been there for 34 years. There must be things that can help Trump's defense. So, you're going to see some of that on cross-examination for sure.

[10:45:00]

And then certain things that will poke holes in what he is saying, right? I mean, they have to distance themselves from this because at the end of the day, I think the prosecution is going to do a very good job at proving that these were false business entries.

And so, I think what the Trump defense team is going to do is they're going to cross-examine Mr. McConney in such a way that this was Michael Cohen, and this is completely him devising a way to do it, so it was good for him. He didn't want to pay taxes but Trump didn't know about it. As Paula said, in 2017, things were very different.

COLLINS: Well, and the narrative that they're crafting, though, is we know we're going to hear from Michael Cohen at some point in this case. He'll testify that Trump confirmed this. Trump signed off on everything that we're seeing, the machinations of right now.

REID: Yes, the problem with Michael Cohen is that because of his previous convictions for lying is that you need to support anything that comes out of his mouth with additional testimony or documents.

Now, I do think it's interesting Mr. McConney was asked about Michael Cohen a short time ago. And he was asking, did you know him? Yes. He's sort of given an ambiguous understanding of what Michael Cohen's role was. He said like, yes, I think he was the lawyer.

COLLINS: He said he was the lawyer.

REID: Exactly. He said, yes, he said he was the lawyer. And that got a big chuckle from the jury and everyone in the courtroom. But it also -- it highlights the ambiguousness of the entire situation.

COLLINS: Karen, can I just ask you before we go? In light of what Trump's team is saying about the gag order ruling this morning from the judge, Trump's in contempt 10 times now for it. Would any other criminal defendant be able to violate a gag order 10 times and avoid jail time?

AGNIFILO: I don't -- I've never seen that before. I've never seen a defendant be permitted to get away with as much as Trump has gotten away with in any of his cases and avoid jail. I think if you look at other high-profile cases, Sam Bankman Fried, for example, he was out on bail and he made one slight thing wrong and the judge put him in for trial.

COLLINS: Karen Friedman Agnifilo, thank you for that.

The prosecution, as we are noting, still walking through an e-mail that the Trump organization sent to Michael Cohen about his reimbursement after he paid off Stormy Daniels. The testimony is hitting a critical point of what's at the underlying heart of this entire case right now. Much more of CNN's special live coverage in moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:00]

ACOSTA: You're watching CNN special live coverage testimony today at Donald Trump's hush money trial, focusing squarely on the business records. The prosecution must prove that Donald Trump falsified.

And Elie, let me go to you first because we're seeing this little tidbit coming out of the courtroom. McConney e-mailing Weisselberg asking him to approve the invoice. OK to pay as per agreement with Don and Eric, Weisselberg wrote back.

So, I mean, just really establishing, McConney and Weisselberg work hand in hand --

HONIG: Yes.

ACOSTA: -- it seems, in doing a lot of this -- I don't know, covering up the hush money scheme as prosecutors are alleging.

HONIG: So, the prosecutor's big goal here is to tie Donald Trump to this accounting, to these invoices, to these ledger entries as closely as possible. And you can see they're taking it step by step. You go from McConney, who's the controller, up to Allen Weisselberg, who's the CFO. Now, we see that Don and Eric, and I will assume that's a reference to Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump, now they're involved.

And so, the closer you bring this to Donald Trump, the more plausible it's going to be when Michael Cohen surely says, oh, no, no. Donald Trump was involved in all of this. He understood the way we'd structured and accounted for this.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, John, I mean, we were talking about the paper trail and so on, but the one headline that I still can't get over started off at the beginning of this. Here's an update. Did you send this invoice to the legal department? Was it typical for the legal department to review requests for payment? And they're really getting into the nuts and bolts here of the paperwork here.

But -- I mean, for the judge to threaten Donald Trump with jail time, that to me -- I -- that's going to stay -- I think, that's going to stay with a lot of folks watching this today. ABC/Ipsos Poll found, this was a while back, a fifth of Trump supporters said they would either reconsider their support or withdraw it if he's convicted of a felony.

KING: If he's convicted of a felony. And being -- put in jail for contempt is different than being convicted --

ACOSTA: Yes.

KING: -- of a felony per se. But I think the idea is if they -- if this conduct, front and center, there -- a lot of people -- a lot of Republicans who are struggling with their vote are trying to process, Trump did all these things in the past, but I don't like the Biden administration. I'm troubled by inflation. I want my taxes cut. I want the border closed. And I'm willing to block out the noise of Trump if I get one or two policies out of Trump. Because Washington's not doing anything I like, if I get one or two things from him, I'll block out the rest. That's where they are now.

The question is if they see something like, you know, in jail for contempt of court. And when Stormy Daniels is, you know, an adult film actress testifying about a hush money payment, are those the things that stir up, especially in the American suburbs, where Donald Trump's toxic nature, his caustic tone, and his personal character have turned off a lot of Republican voters, or Republican leaning independent voters. Does this trial help that effort? Does it -- this trial move that effort?

You know, in the -- that's my big question politically when you're traveling.

ACOSTA: Yes.

KING: There's a lot of people who are ready to hold their nose and vote for Trump. The question is, will something like this change their mind?

ACOSTA: Well, and Kristen, I mean, you know, Trump has been saying, oh, I can't go out and campaign and so on because of this. I mean, obviously, you can't do that if he's behind bars or in this holding cell for a couple of hours. But he was, you know, he had the weekend off.

HOLMES: Yes, and he was really --

ACOSTA: He was at Mar-a-Lago giving a speech. Accusing the Biden administration of being the Gestapo? He went to a car race --

HOLMES: Yes, I mean, I was just listening to that audio, I got it from a source who was there. And I mean, he's very angry when it comes to legal stuff. I mean, at one point he calls Jack Smith an effing A- hole.

[10:55:00]

So, just to say this is profanity laden is really an understatement. But one thing I want to note just about all these conversations we're having about Trump and the gag order. I understand the idea that Donald Trump is a millionaire, possibly a billionaire, we're not really sure that these fines might not matter to him.

Donald Trump hates parting with money. So, the idea that he's up there getting fined first for $9,000 and then another $1,000, there is a reason you haven't seen him violate the gag order. He doesn't want to pay a dollar. Part of what he has said over and over again about this is not just that it's unfair, but that he cannot believe that this is bleeding money.

ACOSTA: Jamie, I wonder, does he want to be put in the slammer? I mean, there's a part of me that wonders if Donald Trump really wants it despite what John King says about how this may affect Nikki Haley voters and independents and so on, he wants to -- this will be another opportunity to rev up that base that eats this stuff up.

GANGEL: John King is nodding his head.

ACOSTA: Yes.

GANGEL: But we know Trump thinks that playing the victim, the martyr helps him with his supporters and potentially with raising money. I would argue that swing voters are not going to find that a good look.

KING: right. The -- very quickly, there is an argument you're making. We don't know what's going to happen come November, but there is an argument, get all the Trump base out, hope the third-party candidates get significant three percent, four percent, five percent, and that could be enough in some states.

ACOSTA: The judge may be thinking about that as well.

All right. Guys, thank you so much. Appreciate the great conversation this morning. Former Trump organization accountant detailing how he reminded Michael Cohen multiple times to send him invoices. This is part of the prosecution plan to connect the dots between Trump and the scheme to buy the silence of Stormy Daniels. More CNN coverage just ahead. Stay with us.

[11:00:00]