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Testimony Continues in Trump Hush Money Trial; Hamas Agrees to Cease-Fire Agreement. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 06, 2024 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:38]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to our special coverage of Donald Trump's criminal trial.

We are, of course, staying on top of all of today's major elements, but, right now, we have some major breaking news coming out of the Middle East. Hamas has agreed to a cease-fire agreement proposed by both Egypt and Qatar.

We know Israel helped craft this deal, but has not fully agreed to it, at least not yet. We have reached out to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office in Jerusalem. We are awaiting official response from the Israeli government.

We will have a live report from Jerusalem in just a moment, but I want to make sure that everyone appreciates what's going on. Hamas has announced that Ismail Haniyeh, the head of its political bureau, has told both Qatari and Egyptian mediators that Hamas has agreed to their proposal for a cease-fire agreement.

Much more on this coming up, a very significant development.

But, right now, the -- we want to track what's going on in Donald Trump's four-week historic hush money criminal trial. A key witness just spent about three hours taking jurors inside the Trump Organization's bookkeeping, and specifically the reimbursement of former Trump lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen after Cohen fronted the money for the Stormy Daniels hush money deal.

Brianna Keilar is joining us right now. She's outside the White House in New York City.

Brianna, update our viewers.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Well, this morning, Wolf, former Trump Org controller Jeffrey McConney walked through Cohen's monthly payouts, which were wired from former President Trump's personal account. Those are payments that began after Trump was in the White House.

And I'm here now with CNN chief domestic correspondent Phil Mattingly, along with CNN legal analyst Karen Friedman Agnifilo. She's counsel at a firm representing Michael Cohen, but she does not have contact with him, does not work on his case, and there are no restrictions on what she can say about this case. And, Karen, we should note right now the court has broken for lunch.

They're going to be back around 2:15 eastern. But this break comes after testimony that was key to these charges of falsifying records.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, so, Mr. McConney was the controller of the Trump Organization, long-term employee for over 30 years.

And he was key. He's a key witness here to talk about how these payments were made. Don't forget, this is a falsifying business records case, and it's all about the record-keeping. And, so far, we haven't heard this link to Donald Trump, which is a little bit surprising.

We were thinking that he was going to say, yes, of course, he was involved, and yes, he did it. Let's see what they say on redirect and how the -- when the prosecution gets back up again.

But I think the defense did a good job at neutralizing his testimony and saying things like, you didn't have many options in the drop-down menu. It was an antiquated system. So, if it said attorney's fees, that's because it came out of the drop-down menu. You didn't have an option for whatever this was.

KEILAR: We're awaiting Michael Cohen's testimony, Karen. If he is the only witness who does provide that link, will that be problematic at all?

FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO: Well, certainly it would be great to have more direct evidence to corroborate that Donald Trump did do that.

There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that the prosecution has brought up as well that Donald Trump knew that this was -- what it was for. I mean, it's clear a crime was committed and it's clear what happened. Did Donald Trump do it? That's the thing that I think is what is missing.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: I think that's so fascinating today from the prosecution side is how they walked through structurally how the alleged crime was committed and how exactly it happened with the actual exhibits showing the checks themselves, showing the e-mails, showing how the $35,000 monthly payments were paid out, showing how little it resembled what I think a traditional legal payment or legal retainer would actually look like within their process.

And then underscoring that the Trump accounting system, pre- presidency, was antiquated, I believe, is the actual word that was used. to Karen's point -- and this has been, I think, thematic throughout the course of the four weeks of this trial up to this point -- who has been able to directly say, I witnessed Donald Trump having a direct action in this happening?

So far, nobody. Still, it is very clear, based on how the prosecution has built the case, that Trump has a lot of control, if not all the control, over all of these things. These things were sent from his personal accounts. These checks were sent from his personal accounts. And so everything seems to imply that's the case.

[13:05:03]

But, once again, another official or another individual involved in how this all happened not being able to directly say he had any contact with Trump on this issue or really much at all, I think, over the course of -- and that was what the cross-examination really got at.

KEILAR: Phil, what do you think about how this is sort of pulling the curtain back on the business dealings of Trump's business, but also pulling the curtain back on how things were going at the White House?

MATTINGLY: It was a bit chaotic.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTINGLY: It was a bit off-the-cuff. It was driven largely -- though we don't have documentation of this specifically in this case, but it was largely driven by whatever the guy who ran the operation wanted.

You know very well how the Trump White House operated. It was not traditionally like an executive branch. It was not traditionally like a West Wing was run. And it seems -- and I think we have seen lots of evidence of this, or at least anecdotes tied to this about the Trump Organization over the series of decades -- it was an operation that was driven by one individual.

And it was designed to give him what he wanted for the business that he wanted to run. That was very much how the White House operated. I think what's fascinating in the testimony today is how you see the shift in the Trump Organization, according to the witness today, when Donald Trump went to the White House, recognizing that systems weren't that great, they were antiquated, recognizing that people who were running the systems or people who had to sign off on things perhaps weren't doing it anymore in a traditional or functional manner.

Instead, Donald Trump took that to the White House.

KEILAR: We will see what the jury makes of all of this. And we will also see who the next witness is. Ultimately, after this, we will see redirect. A lot of surprises, as we don't always know who the next witness is going to be.

Phil and Karen, if you can stand by with me.

Wolf, I want to go back to you. Obviously, we have some developing news.

BLITZER: We have some major breaking news, Brianna.

We're following breaking news in the Middle East. Hamas has announced it has agreed to a cease-fire agreement proposed by Egypt and Qatar. We're waiting to see if Israel will accept the deal as well.

Beth Sanner is a former deputy director of national intelligence for us. She's joining us on the phone.

So, what's your reaction, Beth?

Let me just read to you a little bit from the statement that Hamas released. The statement said that Ismail Haniyeh, the head of the political bureau of Hamas -- quote -- "made a phone call to the Qatari prime minister, Sheik Mohammed Bin Abdulrahman Al Thani, and to the Egyptian minister of intelligence, Mr. Abbas Kamel, and informed them of Hamas' agreement to their proposal regarding a cease-fire agreement."

What's your reaction, Beth?

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think that, first, we have to hold our breath here, but I do think that the Israelis are likely to sign on, since this is the same terms, as far as we know, to what they had signed on earlier.

So I'm actually pretty hopeful. I think that the military pressure and this idea that the Rafah operation was about to go forward may have made the difference.

BLITZER: The last framework proposal that we know about, Beth, had the release of 20 to 33 Israeli hostages over several weeks in exchange for a temporary cease-fire and the release of Palestinian prisoners being held by Israel.

And that was supposed to result in a restoration of sustainable calm, during which the remaining hostages, captive Israeli soldiers and the bodies of hostages would also be exchanged for the release of more Palestinian prisoners. That was an earlier proposal that was clearly discussed with both Qatar and Egypt.

If that is the plan right now, and if Hamas has agreed to that, that would be a huge development.

SANNER: An absolutely huge development.

And I think that part of the issue here is that Yahya Sinwar, who is, as far as we know, still holed up in Southern Gaza, and the political leadership, Haniyeh, who is the one who said publicly that they were a go, they have trouble communicating. It's hard for them to do that.

But, also, they're not completely on the same page and they don't have the same interests in some ways, given that Sinwar is potentially staring down the barrel of a gun and also the party who wants to walk away from this and survive.

So it could be a very big deal. And I think that this delay may have been part of the discussion and trying to hear back from Sinwar inside of Gaza.

BLITZER: Beth, stand by.

I want to go to Jeremy Diamond. He's joining us live from Jerusalem right now. Jeremy, has there been any reaction from the Israeli government to

what the Hamas has just announced?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there has not yet.

And so we are applying a lot of caveats to this news that is just breaking out this hour. And that is, Wolf, that we have now heard from Hamas in a statement that they posted to their Telegram channel saying that they have agreed to the proposal regarding a cease-fire agreement.

Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas' political leader, speaking to the Qatari prime minister, as well as the Egyptian intelligence chief, to relay that message, but, as you said, Wolf, we have yet to hear from the Israeli government officially. We have yet to hear from the Americans, from the Egyptians, from the Qataris.

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And so we do have to caveat this news, which does carry with it quite a bit of promise and hope here, hope, of course, for the hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza who have endured unspeakable horrors over seven months of war, as well as for the families of those hostages who remain captive in Gaza, who have hoped and prayed for the day that they will get to hold their loved ones in their arms once again.

But what we do know, Wolf, is that there has been an Egyptian framework on the table over the course of the last week, which officials on all sides had had a lot of hope that it could potentially bring these two sides together, in particular, because Israel did make several key concessions, including allowing the return, the unrestricted return, of Palestinians to Northern Gaza as part of this latest framework, something that they had resisted for some time and had been a major sticking point.

This framework agreement that was on the table last week would see the release of some 20 to 33 Israeli hostages over several weeks of a cease-fire, and then ultimately leading to a longer term cease-fire, perhaps a one-year cease-fire between Israel and Hamas.

Israel had not agreed to every point in this framework, but it had -- it did have significant input in this framework as it was then presented to Hamas. We have watched, Wolf, over the last few days as that optimism around those negotiations had quickly soured.

It appeared that Hamas was sticking to its demand that an end to the war altogether, that Israel commit to that as part of this agreement, something that Israel has refused to do. But now, hours after the Israeli military began dropping evacuation leaflets on Eastern Rafah, ordering 100,000 civilians to flee, Hamas now putting in a statement hours later that they have agreed to this initial proposal.

We don't know whether that evacuation order in Rafah was the key factor that changed Hamas' mind. We also don't know whether any major changes to this Egyptian framework have been made in order to get Hamas to agree to it. And, like I said, we have yet to hear from all of the other parties involved.

So, as much as there is promise and hope in this statement from Hamas, there is certainly not certainty at this stage -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jeremy, I want you to stand by.

M.J. Lee, our White House correspondent, is getting more information, U.S. reaction.

I take it, M.J., the president, President Biden, had a conversation, a phone conversation, with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu earlier today? Is that right?

M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

We know President Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke earlier today. And, of course, these ongoing hostage deal negotiations was one of the many topics that the two leaders discussed, as has been the case for all of their recent phone conversations.

But what we are waiting for right now is an official White House and U.S. reaction to this news that Hamas has apparently agreed to a temporary cease-fire deal. So we will bring that to you whenever we have word of that.

But I heard Jeremy in his last conversation with you really leaning into the various caveats that are at play here. And I do think that kind of note of caution from here in Washington is wise as well. That is just to say that we have had moments like this before in the months of negotiations to get to a temporary cease-fire and hostages release deal where we appear to be on the brink of a deal, and other moments where we appear to be on the brink of these talks completely falling apart.

So, again, as we wait for official U.S. word and reaction from the Israeli side to this news from Hamas that they are agreeing to this deal, I do think, again, just leaning into that note of caution is definitely worth doing.

But what U.S. officials have been doing, of course, in recent weeks is very much pushing hard for this deal to get done, because the administration believes that this is really the only clear way to eventually getting to an end to this war.

But I can't underscore enough how important it is for U.S. officials to try to get to that point, to try to get to the point of hostages coming out and this conflict that has been going on for so many months to come to an end. And, of course, a big part of that is avoiding a major Rafah incursion from taking place.

And, of course, the Israelis have been warning for weeks and weeks now that they are getting increasingly prepared to go ahead and take that step if this deal does not come together, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Is the White House still planning a press briefing at the bottom of the hour, in about 15 minutes or so from now, M.J.?

LEE: Yes, that press briefing has actually been pushed back to 2:00, so that is when we will hear from National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby and where we will get an opportunity to press him on all of these latest developments.

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And, of course, we will be bringing that to you as well, Wolf.

BLITZER: I suspect that will be the first official White House reaction to this Hamas statement that they have accepted the proposal put forward by Qatar and by Egypt. We will see what they, what Kirby says at the top of the hour.

M.J., don't go too far away. This is major breaking news that we're following right now.

Hamas says it has agreed to a new temporary cease-fire proposal put forward by Egypt and Qatar. We will get more reaction from Jerusalem, from the Israeli government.

Much more of our breaking news coverage coming up. We will be right back.

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KEILAR: And welcome back to our special coverage of Donald Trump's criminal trial. We are staying on top of all of today's developments.

[13:20:04]

First, though, we do have some breaking news out of the Middle East that we are keeping our eye on here. Hamas has agreed to a cease-fire agreement that was proposed by Egypt and Qatar. We know that Israel helped craft this deal. Israel, though, has not fully agreed to this. We have reached out to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office and are awaiting a response to see where Israel stands on this.

Let's go straight now to Nic Robertson. He is in London.

London -- or, pardon me, Nic, what do we know about how Israel is viewing this at this point?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: There's been such a wide gap on the key issue here, which is a permanent cease-fire, which is what Hamas has demanded and Israel says isn't on the table. It's been a salami slice deal, if you will, broken down into a period of six weeks of truce for an exchange of hostages, then another six weeks of truce, during which period a final cease-fire could have been agreed.

But that really big sticking point, as far as we know, remains a sticking point. Precisely what Hamas is saying that they have agreed to, we don't know the details. They're saying they have agreed to a plan put forward, proposed by Qatar and Egypt. Now, we know over the weekend that there were negotiations in Egypt,

and the -- and Hamas were given the Egyptian proposal. We understood that that proposal was simply a framework, that, even if that proposal, that framework proposal was agreed, there would still be days' worth of discussions hammering out the details. And, of course, the devil is in the detail.

And I think it's worth noting that, in any negotiation, both sides are trying to unbalance the other. And it appeared earlier on this day, when Israel was dropping fliers over Rafah telling part of the population, 100,000 people, they needed to move, it really seemed as if Israel was potentially going to go ahead with this much-talked- about ground operation in Rafah, psychological pressure, if you will, on Hamas, because Prime Minister Netanyahu has said all along, the IDF has said all along it is military pressure on Hamas that will get the release of the hostages.

But at this stage, when Israel appears on the front foot for a potential offensive into Rafah, which is not an easy consideration, takes a lot of resources, a lot of organization, now we hear from Hamas that they have agreed to, as far as -- an unspecified deal. We don't know the details.

If we could know those details, we would know how realistic it is that Israel might respond in the affirmative. But it does seem that Hamas has put the ball back in Israel's court at what seems almost the 11th hour for a potential incursion into Rafah.

KEILAR: Yes, because, to your point about Rafah, and as we await these details, which are so important, Nic, we can focus on why Hamas would want to at least stall this, if not come to some sort of agreement, at least buy time when it comes to the Rafah offensive, right?

I mean, they could be trying to buy some time and trying to create some external pressure on Israel to stop that offensive that has been constantly discussed getting a start on, only for it to be delayed and delayed.

ROBERTSON: Yes, I mean, I think, if we go back to a few weeks ago, a month ago, perhaps now, when the United States abstained at the U.N. for a Security Council decision to push for a cease-fire in Gaza, that moment, Hamas realized that, actually, they had some pressure on the United States.

They had pressure that they didn't think they could bring to bear on Israel. And, since then, we have seen protests at universities across campuses in the United States, in Europe, Oxford and Cambridge today, in the U.K. and France and other countries as well.

And, for Hamas, that signals a support for the Palestinian cause with real political clout that they haven't had before. Now, it's temporary political clout. This is an election year in many countries, here in the United States, for example. But, for Hamas, that seemed for a while to have hardened their position. And they felt perhaps they were getting sympathies that they weren't

otherwise getting from much of the world. So, where does that leave them today? We know that their -- head of their political office in Gaza, the person, Sinwar, the person that Israel most wants to either capture or kill, is a very astute negotiator, a very astute studier of politics, not only in Israel, but around the world.

So, is -- are they trying to leverage this sort of feeling of international support that they think they're getting? Are they pushing for a last-minute add-on to the deal? They have certainly put Israel in the corner at the moment. And let's break this down again.

What we understood about the deal was that it was going to be a framework with potentially three, six weeks in it. And during the first six weeks of a temporary cease-fire, Hamas would release, initially, we thought 40, and then the number came down to 33, the children, the female hostages, the elderly hostages and those who were sick.

[13:25:16]

Now, and part of that equation was how many Palestinians would be released and how quickly Gazans could go back to the north of Gaza, and Israel didn't want that, because it feared that would allow Hamas to regain some control on the ground. And Hamas didn't want Israel staying inside of Gaza, because they realized that there was a potential for another offensive.

And in that second phase, all the living male hostages were supposed to be released. None of these details have really been sort of on the surface over the past few weeks of these negotiations. Why? Because it does seem to have come down to the question of permanent cease-fire and temporary cease-fire.

And I think, until -- again, until we can see some daylight on that issue, we're not really going to know where -- which way Israel is going to move on this, but, certainly, Sinwar and Hamas have put Israel in a not -- I wouldn't say a difficult position, but they have got them potentially on the back foot at the moment.

KEILAR: Yes, certainly trying to put Israel in a difficult position. And we do not know what Hamas has agreed to here. We do not know how Israel is going to see it.

Nic, thank you so much for that from London.

Let's go now to the State Department and Kylie Atwood.

Kylie, what are you hearing there?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, we're waiting here, Brianna, for the State Department to conduct its daily briefing.

It was supposed to happen about half-an-hour ago. We're still waiting for an update. It's clear that U.S. officials are trying to figure out what is going on here and how they respond to this news from Hamas, given we don't know the exact details, as Nic was saying, of the proposal that Hamas has said that they have accepted here.

The last time that we heard from the secretary of state on these ongoing negotiations between Hamas and Israel through, of course, the interlocutors in Egypt and Qatar was last week, when he was traveling in the region.

The secretary of state essentially said the onus is on Hamas, Hamas is standing in the way of the deal, because he said the current iteration of the deal that had been put on the table, crafted by the Egyptians, but had been reviewed by the Israelis, made significant compromises on behalf of the Israelis, essentially making the case that that deal was the best deal that Hamas was going to get and saying very clearly that Hamas should accept it.

So if Hamas has accepted that version of the deal, this would be a major development and would put the ball back in Israel's court. We just don't know if it's exactly those terms that Hamas says that they are agreeing to right now.

And the other thing I want to note is that U.S. officials have been saying that what's on the table is, of course, that temporary cease- fire that would be in exchange for the release of those hostages. But, of course, the hope from U.S. officials is that that temporary cease- fire would turn into more lasting cease-fire and then turn into a peace.

Of course, that creates some tension with Israelis, who have been saying for quite some time now that they are hoping that there is, of course, this agreement to release these hostages, but they also are very clear in saying that their operation in Rafah will go ahead no matter what.

KEILAR: Yes, there are just so many ifs here. We need to be clear about that.

As you said, Kylie, thank you. Nic, thank you so much to you for your reporting.

Ahead, we have much more on our breaking news, as we are awaiting the State Department briefing, Hamas agreeing to a cease-fire proposal. But exactly what in this proposal are they agreeing to?

We will have more after a quick break. Stay with us.

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