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Trump Org Employee Testifies In Hush Money Trial; Israel Says Rafah Operation Will Continue Despite Hamas Agreeing To Ceasefire Proposal; Families Of Hostages Call For Israel To Accept Ceasefire Deal. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired May 06, 2024 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Well, we were just talking in the break here, Karen, that I think some of what is happening today kind of crystallizes the way prosecutors are really building this case against Donald Trump.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, this is a methodical building it brick by brick by brick, and the entire case depends on each witness. There's not one witness that has testified yet that can say this was the whole thing, but that remains to be what Michael Cohen is going to provide. But what they're really trying to do is build every little piece of this so that by the time it gets to Michael Cohen, I think everything will be clear and will be in evidence and will be testified to.

But it's a little bit frustrating because there is -- it's like you get right up to the line of Donald Trump, but there's no clear, yes, I spoke to Donald Trump and he told me to do this. And I was standing there when he signed it and said, yes, I know what this is. And so, so that's the thing we don't have yet.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: This is such a good point. I feel like there have been four or five witnesses where you were following with our great team that's in the room, cause we can't have cameras in the room, which we all disagree with, where you're right up at the line. And I feel like there's been several times where you're like, oh, this is going to be, nope. OK, no, we didn't actually have the direct connection.

And I think this is the two witnesses we've had today. Trump organization insiders. Yes, very weedsy insiders at that. When you're talking about the accounting department and accounts payable. But very specifically we're involved in the payments to Michael Cohen in the apparent misidentification of the payments to Michael Cohen as legal services. And kind of the entire structure of the process from a little bit more of a macro standpoint this morning.

Now, if you're in micro standpoint, with the witnesses currently on the stand and yet there is no direct when, when Debra Tarasoff walked the checks over to Rhona Graff, she didn't walk them directly into Donald Trump's office. She knows that that's Donald Trump's Sharpie and how he signs things, but she didn't witness that. And she doesn't know necessarily whether or not she can't say that Donald Trump specifically knew exactly the check that he was signing, even though he was directly involved in everything that his organization was doing.

They always stop just shy of it, leaving one individual, Michael Cohen.

KEILAR: This is about telling a story and convincing a jury that there is no way with what all of these witnesses have told them about Donald Trump, that he wouldn't have known this, that he wouldn't have understood the machinations of this arrangement. Because let's just remind people, this isn't just $130,000. They're actually in the totality of the different payouts around this $130,000 in hush money. There was allegedly $420,000 hard to believe Donald Trump wouldn't have known about that. Is it hard enough to believe for the jury, I guess is the question.

AGNIFILO: Well, the one thing the prosecution has done a really good job at is proving a crime. There's clearly a conspiracy to evade taxes, election, you know, having to declare how much donations for an election. So it's clear they've proven that there is a crime that occurred here.

Michael Cohen's guilty of it. Allen Weisselberg is guilty of it. And David Pecker is part of this conspiracy. At least those three, if not others, like Dylan Howard and a few others.

Getting Donald Trump into that mix, though, it's looking more and more like it depends on Michael Cohen's testimony. But again, we're just still have a long way to go in the prosecution's case. They just started this week with the falsification of business records charges. Last week was much more about the catch and kill scheme and putting that together.

So this is the falsification of business records week. So we still have a lot of witnesses to hear from. But so far today, it's very much they've proven a crime. Just haven't -- we don't have that link yet.

KEILAR: All right. We are looking for that. Karen and Phil, thank you so much to both of you.

And we are hearing new testimony in former President Trump's hush money trial here in New York. Our special coverage will continue after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:38:39]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: We're monitoring significant breaking news out of the Middle East right now. The Israeli Prime Minister's office saying that its military operation in Rafah will continue despite Hamas saying it has agreed to a ceasefire proposal.

Just hours ago people in Rafah were celebrating news of a potential deal while in Tel Aviv demonstrators including families of Israeli hostages still being held by Hamas in Gaza have taken to the streets to urge Prime Minister Netanyahu to accept that deal.

CNN's Jeremy Dimon is joining us live from Jerusalem right now. Jeremy, Israel certainly helped craft this deal. They've said the goal of the Rafah operation to exert pressure on Hamas that was the goal of the Rafah operation.

The U.S. helped convince Hamas to agree to this deal but there seems to be a major setback right now for anyone hoping for some sort of peaceful ceasefire in Gaza.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, there's no question that the last few hours have been an emotional rollercoaster not only for those who've been closely following this but of course for the hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza who have been suffering seven months of war and are hoping for a reprieve for the families of the hostages who want to hug their loved ones.

[15:40:00]

And as you said, while Israel did have significant input into that Egyptian framework, it had not agreed to it altogether and it's also not clear at this stage whether this Hamas response, what they have agreed to if that is the same framework that was initially submitted to them.

And now the Prime Minister's office is saying that the military operation in Rafah will continue as these negotiations also play out. We're already getting word from the Israeli military that they have begun to carry out a series of what they are describing as precision strikes on Hamas targets in eastern Rafah, that very same area where just hours ago, less than 24 hours ago about 100,000 civilians were told to begin to evacuate.

In addition to continuing the operation in Rafah the Israeli Prime Minister's office is now saying this about the Hamas proposal saying that it is, quote, far from Israel's necessary requirements.

They also say, Wolf, that they will send a, quote, working level delegation to meet with the mediators. Not clear if that's going to be in Doha, Qatar or in Cairo, Egypt.

But clearly, on the one hand the Israeli government responding to what they are characterizing not as Hamas agreeing to the framework but rather as a Hamas proposal they are characterizing that in negative terms. But they are saying that they are going to continue to negotiate sending this working level delegation to pursue talks further.

So it doesn't appear, Wolf, that a deal is imminent, that it could come in a matter of hours but rather that this will be days more of negotiations and whether it heads in a positive direction or not still remains to be seen.

BLITZER: And correct me if I'm wrong were the hostage families who were demonstrating in Tel Aviv a little while ago were they in favor of Israel accepting this Hamas accepted deal? DIAMOND: Absolutely. Those protesters who came out tonight in numbers are urging the Israeli government to accept the proposal on the table. These are the folks, of course, who have been demonstrating for weeks, if not months at this point in front of the Kiryat which is the Israeli military headquarters in Tel Aviv where the Israeli war cabinet has been meeting urging them to do more to secure the release of their loved ones and now that they see that Hamas has agreed to some kind of framework for a deal they want Israel to do the same.

BLITZER: All right, we'll see what's going to happen. Jeremy Diamond in Jerusalem for us. Jeremy, thank you very much.

Let's discuss these late-breaking developments with the former U.S. Defense Secretary, Mark Esper. Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. The Prime Minister's office has released a statement saying -- and you just heard it but let me put it back up on the screen.

The war cabinet unanimously decided that Israel continues its operation in Rafah in order to exert military pressure on Hamas.

Mr. Secretary, what do you make of Israel's strategy right now?

MARK ESPER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, Wolf, I'm not surprised by this outcome. I was surprised when it was first reported that Hamas agreed but immediately two things became suspect. One was that the agreement was made by Ismail Haniyeh, who is based in Qatar.

He's not the guy making the decisions in Gaza. It's Yahya Sinwar who is somewhere beneath the buildings of Rafah right now hiding out. He's been calling the shots in Gaza. So that's number one.

Number two, it was unclear what they agreed to, what Hamas agreed to. The big sticking point is the definition of a ceasefire. Israel wants a temporary ceasefire and Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire. Why is that? Because once the swap is made for Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners then Hamas gives up all of its leverage which is why they've been demanding two things.

One, the removal of all Israeli troops from Gaza and two, a permanent ceasefire. Well, of course once that happens, that means Hamas will rush back into all of Gaza, once again regain control and we'll be back to square one.

So, look, I'm not surprised. I think what happened was this morning, as you know, Israel dropped the leaflets warning 100,000 Gazans to move out of Rafah because an attack was imminent and I think the political leadership of Hamas, trying to put the hot potato back into Israel's hands said, hey, we agree to this because they wanted the ball put back in Israel's court. That's my complete speculation. We'll learn more in the coming days, but that's what I suspect happened -- Wolf.

BLITZER: As we just reported with Jeremy Diamond, we're watching these live protests in Tel Aviv right now where demonstrators are calling on Prime Minister Netanyahu to accept the deal. Is he under enormous pressure right now to accept the deal to allow at least, what, 30 or 40 of the remaining Israeli hostages to come back home?

ESPER: Yes, he's under tremendous pressure. I mean, there are two things that the Israelis want and it's interesting that they want to accept the deal without nobody really knowing what the deal is, or at least the public not knowing. But the two competing pressures in this order are, number one, return of all hostages and number two, the defeat of Hamas and those two are in conflict right now. They've been in conflict for months and I think if you look at polling, polling will play that out, that that's what the Israeli public wants.

[15:45:04]

It's interesting that the War Cabinet unanimously did not agree to the Hamas proposal. So look, this has been and will be a continuing tough issue for Israel, for Bibi Netanyahu in particular, trying to manage the different political dynamics. And then on top of that, he has President Biden pushing him to do more, to let more aid in.

We had the report in the last 48 hours or so by the World Food Program that famine has begun in the north. And then on top of that, you have the Arab states. There's some discussions about a broader security arrangement between at least the Israelis and the Saudis.

All these are pending and it's putting tremendous pressure on this Israeli government.

BLITZER: And President Biden in his phone conversation with Prime Minister Netanyahu earlier today made it clear that the U.S. is strongly opposed to Israel's moving in on the ground into Rafah right now because it would endanger potentially so many Palestinian residents who are sheltering in Rafah right now. Mark Esper, thank you as usual for joining us.

ESPER: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: And stay with CNN. Our special coverage will continue right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:37]

KEILAR: Welcome back to week four of former President Trump's historic hush money trial. The prosecution's 10th and 11th witnesses have spent much of today on the witness stand walking the jury through the accounting practices at the Trump organization. Jurors have been shown documents related to reimbursements to Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen, that are at the heart of this case.

We're joined now by former Nixon White House Counsel John Dean to talk a little bit more about this. John, thanks for being with us here. I wonder, based on the testimonies of the Trump Org. controller, Jeffrey McConney, and the account's payable employee, Deborah Tarasoff, so far. If you think that they have done what the prosecution needs to do, if they have been able to create either a paper trail that leads directly to former President Trump, or if they are just able to make it so unbelievable that Trump, a bit of a micromanager financially, was not involved in all of this?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Brianna, I think they've done both. I think they have left a very strong paper trail that directs the jury to just a few unanswered questions from which they can easily draw inferences. And I think the witnesses have done the same.

They've put a big context and a big picture together for the jury. And the case is very clear. The picture is very clear.

So, I'm not quite sure what Michael Cohen is going to testify to, or how long they'll need him. And I was thinking here, as we're waiting to chat, it could be disproportionate. He could be on just a short while, and they spend a long time just beating him up.

KEILAR: Do you think that prosecutors have been able to show that this was done to the end of election interference, that that was the reason why this alleged crime was committed?

DEAN: There's no question they've established that with overwhelming evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt, even to those of us who are not in the courtroom. I've been reading the transcript, and it just was coming through. This was all about the election.

Hope Hicks in saying, for example, that she was instructed to not have the newspapers go to the residents so that Melania wouldn't see them down in Mar-a-Lago when they had the negative stories. That doesn't mean anything. It does not distract from her testimony, where she said this all happened in the period when the primary issue was the campaign and how to protect the campaign from the negative publicity.

So it's just, to me, very clear. And I would think it would be very difficult for any witness not to see that. Excuse me, any juror not to see that.

KEILAR: Yes, protecting from negative publicity specifically after the Access Hollywood debacle. And I wonder, John, if you were the prosecution, which witness would you call next?

DEAN: Well, I think that they have to get these mechanical witnesses along the way so the defense can't say there's a gap in the case, there's not a link here or there. So some of this housekeeping testimony needs to get done. I think the jury is anticipating that Michael Cohen is a big witness.

They don't know if they're going to see Stormy or Karen McDougal. So that keeps them interested as they wait and watch for the story to unfold.

KEILAR: Yes, it certainly does. We'll have to see who is next after Deborah Tarasoff. John Dean, thank you so much for being with us.

And an interesting detail just in from our reporters in the courtroom, Trump Org employee Deborah Tarasoff has returned to the stand. We're told that she tapped Eric Trump's knee as she passed him. Remember, she still works for the former president's son. Prosecutors are walking her through more invoices now. And we have some more of our coverage of former President Trump's hush money case just ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:59:21]

KEILAR: Back now to our special coverage of former President Trump's hush money trial. Prosecutors calling two witnesses with inside knowledge of the Trump organization. They started the day questioning former Trump Org controller, Jeffrey McConney, who detailed the $420,000 in payments given to Trump's former lawyer, Michael Cohen -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And Brianna, right now, accounts payable supervisor, Deborah Tarasoff, is testifying. She was asked about a number of e-mails and invoices, including one with her stamp on it.

[16:00:00]

And we also heard directly from Judge Merchan earlier in the day, he ruled this morning that the former president had again violated his gag order, this for the 10th time. The judge threatening Trump that any further violations potentially could result in jail time.

I'll be back in two hours, 6 p.m. Eastern, in "THE SITUATION ROOM." "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.