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Prosecutors Expected to Call Stormy Daniels to the Stand Today. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired May 07, 2024 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:02]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Also important to understand exactly how that payoff worked. Michael Cohen first paid Stormy Daniels $130,000 before the election. And later, and this is really where the crime lies, as Paula was saying, Donald Trump and the Trump organization reimbursed Michael Cohen $420,000. Now, Stormy Daniels will know about that $130,000. She's probably not going to know anything about the internal accounting behind the reimbursement.

Now, Stormy Daniels has given us a bit of a preview of what she might say today. She spoke with you, Anderson Cooper, back in 2018. Let's take a quick listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: So, you signed and released a statement that said, I'm not denying this affair because I was paid in hush money. I'm denying it because it never happened. That's a lie?

STORMY DANIELS, ADULT FILM STAR: Yes.

COOPER: If it was untruthful, why did you sign it?

DANIELS: Because they made it sound like I had no choice. The exact sentence used was, they can make your life hell in many different ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HONIG: Now, Donald Trump will have a different view, has expressed a different view of what happened between him and Stormy Daniels. Let's just remind ourselves of some of the comments that Donald Trump has made about Stormy Daniels.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I have no idea who these women are. Have no idea. I have no idea. The stories are total fiction. They're 100% made up. They never happened. They never would happen. Never met this person, these people. I don't know who they are. I don't know who they are.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HONIG: Now, whether they had sex or not in 2006 is not directly relevant to the crimes charged here, but it could be very relevant to the credibility of the parties, to how the jury assesses the credibility of the prosecution and the defense.

And looking ahead to Stormy Daniels' cross examination, which we could get into later today, we got maybe a hint of where the defense will go when they examined her lawyer, Keith Davidson, a few days ago. At one point, Davidson testified that Stormy Daniels said, you better settle this goddamn story because if he loses this election and he is going to lose, we lose all blanking leverage.

So the prosecution's going to argue that Stormy Daniels was opportunistic here and was part of an effort essentially to shake down Donald Trump and the Trump organization. Prosecutors are going to strongly disagree with that. So there's a look ahead to what we should expect.

Jake, you want to take it from there?

TAPPER: All right. Thanks, Elie Honig. Let's talk about this all with my panel.

Right now in the courtroom, our reporters in there are sending us notes, updates every second that they can. And Mr. Trump's defense attorney, Susan Necheles, is saying, quote, "We're informed the second witness today will be Stormy Daniels. We want to renew our objection to her testifying particularly about any details of any sexual acts." That is Mr. Trump's attorney there.

"Do you mean more than just we had sex?" Judge Merchan asks the defense attorney, Susan Necheles. "Yes, Your Honor," Necheles says.

So Judge Merchan there establishing that beyond "we had sex" is what they're talking about. The prosecutor, Mr. Hoffinger, is arguing that the details of the accounts are important.

So this is where we are right now. The defense attorney and the prosecuting attorneys are arguing in court about what Stormy Daniels will be allowed to testify about. Hoffinger, the prosecutor, says they are being careful to omit some details that are, quote, "too salacious."

Again, this is where we are as a country right now that we are having this discussion in this debate in the courtroom.

And Dana Bash, I guess it's good that the prosecutor says that they're going to omit some details that are too salacious. The prosecutor is also saying, is also saying, quote, "in terms of the sexual act, it will be very basic." I can't believe I have to read this on television. It's not going to involve any discretion.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Better you than me, Jake Tapper.

TAPPER: It's not going to involve any descriptions of anything in particular.

BASH: Let's read it. Read it --

TAPPER: So the idea of the detail of this and how humiliating or detailed it's going to be or needs to be is very much being debated right now. And I'm assuming the jury is not there. They're talking about this before Stormy Daniels, who will not be the first witness today, we're told, at least according to the defense attorneys of the second witness.

But it is this encounter between Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump, alleged encounter, I should say, because he still says it never happened. This alleged encounter happened in 2006. He was married to Melania Trump, who he's still married to. She had just had their son, Barron. And it is this encounter that has prompted all of this, not necessarily the encounter itself, but trying to hide this encounter, allegedly, from the American people in October 2016, right before the presidential election.

Right now, Todd Blanche, the Trump attorney, is whispering to Trump as Hoffinger, the prosecutor, talks about Stormy Daniels on the witness stand.

Dana, Hoffinger says, it's important for us to elicit how she came to have sex with him and how she felt about it. I'm not quite sure why it's important for them to elicit that. Necheles -- Necheles, rather, the Trump's attorney, Susan Necheles, reiterates this is a case about books and records, which is true. She's correct about that. Dana?

[09:35:20]

BASH: Well, maybe it's all true.

TAPPER: Yeah.

BASH: That -- look, this is, by all accounts, understandably, the testimony that Donald Trump has been most concerned about, most worried about when it comes to everything, but probably most importantly, his family. And this is the kind of conversation, what Merchan says, it's fine to elicit that Trump and Daniels had sex. That's fine. But we don't need to know the details, the judge says. Nope, nope, we don't.

TAPPER: And I think I speak for the American people when I say --

BASH: Thank you.

TAPPER: Thank you, Judge Merchan.

BASH: You Honor, thank you.

TAPPER: The judge is saying that he agrees with Trump's attorneys that Stormy Daniels has credibility issues, but that's why the prosecutors need to be given a chance to establish her credibility. The credibility issues, we should say, do not have to do with her line of work as an adult actress and director. It has to do with the fact that she has previously, in statements, denied that she had any sort of relationship with Donald Trump or that there was any sort of hush money payment. And now she has obviously changed her story. The jury is entering the court.

BASH: Yeah. And I think it's really important to note that, that this conversation that we were just describing happened before the jury got in there.

TAPPER: Yes.

BASH: Because they're trying to set the parameters of this conversation before the people who will decide the defendant's fate will hear this discussion. And that point that you just made about the credibility of Stormy Daniels, we are obviously going to hear a lot of that once the prosecution rests and the defense starts to come in, particularly what we heard, what they played earlier, what you played, Elie, earlier about what Stormy Daniels said to Anderson and Anderson pressing on this issue of her not telling the truth.

But look, you kind of go back in time to the Access Hollywood moment and the sort of all of the salacious, all of the, you know, the questions about behavior and words that made people feel uncomfortable and the question about whether or not that is going to have a political impact. I would just say on the politics, as we wait for the jury to come in here, that's all-baked in.

TAPPER: Yeah, Kasie Hunt. So Stormy Daniels, this was the moment that I think the defense team was dreading, not necessarily because they think that her account is going to be so credible or damning, but just because this is embarrassing to Donald Trump. And it also makes it less easy for them to control their client. The prosecution right now is calling Sally Franklin to the stand. Let me throw it to Anderson Cooper in New York for more on Sally Franklin.

COOPER: That's right, Jake. It seems that Stormy Daniels was going to be the second witness call today. Paula, are you familiar with Sally Franklin?

REID: So I'm not. And I know this case pretty well. So this appears to be one of the summary witnesses. They need to get in evidence. What's not clear to me is that this is going to be evidence about Stormy Daniels' book or Michael Cohen's book, because his book "Revenge" was also published by Penguin Random House. So right now, we just need to see once they get into her.

COOPER: Does she work for a publisher?

REID: Yes, sorry. So she is -- works at Penguin Random House. She's a Senior Vice President and Executive Managing Editor for Random House Publishing Group. So clearly, they're using her to get in something that was likely in one of these two books, either Stormy's book or potentially Michael Cohen's book.

But it's also likely that this is going to be a pretty short witness, because we also expect, as the prosecutor indicated, that she's also going to call Stormy Daniels today. So this should be brief. COOPER: We should also point out that that conversation that Jake was reading parts of about exactly what words are going to be used, what description of sexual activity is going to be used, that was all happening without the jury in the room. It's important to point that out.

REID: That's right. And then they came in, and I was in court yesterday. And what really struck me is just how attentive this jury is. Even yesterday, look, today, this is going to be blockbuster. It's going to be hard to turn away from this. But yesterday, it was dry. It's the heart of the case. But at times, it was deadly boring. And I would look over to the jury as they were seeing the 10th, you know, repetition of the same check being introduced.

They were all watching so attentively. It's clear to me. I know you've been in there, too.

COOPER: Yeah.

REID: They're taking this task seriously.

COOPER: Yeah, it was the same way last week when it was the day that Hope Hicks was called to the stand. But before she was called to the stand, it was kind of very dry testimony. And they were -- I mean, it was hard to stay awake at times for I think people in the court. The jury was very attentive.

REID: Yeah.

BERMAN: Two things. One, it was that conversation about the former president's genitalia was happening without the jury in the room, but with him very much in the room.

[09:40:08]

So he heard that whole thing. And just imagine what that must be like for him to have people discussing that just feet away from him.

And the other thing I want to point out, our friends in Washington, their discomfort in discussing the details of what was being talked about in the courtroom itself, the idea of the details of the sexual encounter. Imagine if all that had come out the week before the election in 2016 as uncomfortable it is for all of them to talk about that now. Imagine how big of a deal it would have been in October of 2016.

COOPER: Franklin is testifying as a records custodian pursuant to a subpoena. So she has been subpoenaed in order to be there.

REID: And I left out another possibility that she is actually testifying right now about one of Trump's books. It's called, "Trump: How to Get Rich." I just googled it as number one national bestseller, one of his books. So this appears to be what she is going to testify to.

Now, as we've reported the defense team is refusing to stipulate to anything and stipulating is just agreeing that yes, so you know, this tweet was sent on this day. Right now, the prosecutor is asking her if she's familiar with this title, "Trump: How to Get Rich."

And I think a lot of people are familiar with the art of the deal. I'm guessing this is one of his lesser-known titles, but still a bestseller and there's something in here. The prosecutors clearly want to get in and defense attorneys likely refuse to stipulate to which is why Ms. Franklin has to take the stand this morning.

COOPER: It was -- the former president sent out a tweet this morning or something I guess it was in Truth Social --

REID: Truth Social, yeah.

COOPER: -- saying that he had just learned who the witness was, then he removed that, is that correct?

REID: Yeah, he did. And I want to be clear --

COOPER: Trump is leaning back with his eyes closed as Franklin begins testifying when his book title was named, he looked over toward the witness.

REID: And I want to be clear that the -- the prosecution has no obligation to talk with that.

COOPER: And let's put that -- that Truth Social posting up that he -- that he deleted. We should just to an informer.

REID: Yeah, I'll be helpful to follow along. There you go.

COOPER: I've just recently been told he sent out this morning. "Who the witness is today? This is unprecedented, no time for lawyers to prepare, no judges ever run a trial in such a biased and partisan way. He is crooked & highly conflicted, even taking away my First Amendment Rights. Now he's threatening me with jail, & they have no case -- This according to virtually all Legal Scholars & Experts. Why isn't the fake news media reporting his conflict."

Another book by the way, Franklin says she is familiar with is "Trump: Think Like a Billionaire."

BERMAN: I will say one of the reasons they may have taken this down is he puts the word witness in a social media post. If there is one word that is very dangerous for him with Judge Merchan, I think at this point it is witness. You know, the judge threatened him with jail time if he once again violates the gag order. He shouldn't be tweeting about the even the idea of a witness.

REID: Yeah, and two things. First of all, the prosecution is not under any obligation to tell the defense who they're going to call. Yesterday in court, they said they would as soon as court was over, they would tell the defense who they were going to call. So they're giving them some time. They also knew darn right well that summer Daniels was going to be called in the course of this case. Now, the prosecution right now, again, as we anticipated is using Franklin just to introduce certain portions of these books into evidence. This is something that the defense could have agreed to, saved everyone some time. But they are opting to take a different strategy instead they stipulate to nothing which drags -- drags this out and forces a lot of folks to come in on the stand and help them introduce this evidence.

But I think today really one of the greatest legal risks that Stormy Daniels poses to Trump is prompting him to violate the gag order. Now, of course, that's on him. But this is something that as you said, it's personal. It's embarrassing and he's even before he was fined $9,000. He had gotten a lot better about staying within the confines of the gag order. But today this is going to be a real test for him.

COOPER: We should also point out that in many trials a defense team will know what witnesses with the order they're going to be called and the reason they don't in this is because the judge was concerned that Donald Trump would attack the witnesses in advance of their testimony.

And so in a sense Donald Trump has actually hurt his own case because of these repeated use of social media going after witnesses.

REID: Yeah, absolutely. He has certainly made the job more difficult for his defense attorneys. Now, look, the judge didn't make them share this. They're not under an obligation to. They said, it's a professional courtesy. We usually extend. But in this case, we're worried about the integrity of this process if we tell you you're going to attack the witness.

Now there, he didn't say her by name, but he walked up to the line. And today watching him at the mics, watching him on social media. This is going to be a test for him.

BERMAN: I will say, if there is one witness that the defense was probably prepared for weeks ago, it would be Stormy Daniels. The idea that it was somehow sprung on them and they're not ready is hard to believe.

REID: Yes, Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen, they've known.

COOPER: Inside court, we expect prosecutors to call the adult film star and director to the stand as the second witness today. You're watching CNN Special Live Coverage. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:49:20]

TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN Special Live Coverage. I'm Jake Tapper in Washington. And this morning's first witness in Donald Trump's hush money cover-up trial is a woman named Sally Franklin. She is a Senior Vice President at publisher Penguin Random House. The prosecution is using her as a vehicle through which to enter excerpts from a pair of Trump books into evidence. Once Franklin is done, we expect the government to call the day's marquee witness to the stand adult film star and director Stormy Daniels with whom Mr. Trump allegedly have -- had a rendezvous. Although he denies it and that has created this entire basis of trial, the alleged cover-up of the hush money paid to Stormy Daniels in October 2016.

[09:50:05]

In the court right now, when somebody hurts you, just go after them as viciously and as violently as you can. This is an excerpt from a book. I assume this is a book about Trump. I'm just -- that sounds like Mr. Trump of all the people involved in this case. It's by Trump. When somebody hurts you just go after them as viciously and as violently as you can.

The previous excerpt was saying -- the book is called, "Trump: How to Get Rich." Another book is, "Trump: Think Like a Billionaire." And these are excerpts from books, from Mr. Trump allegedly written by him or with him with a ghostwriter. The chapter title of the excerpt is sometimes you still have to screw them. So this is just trying to get into the mindset of Donald Trump according to the prosecution, according to his own words.

Yeah, Kasie.

KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I'm just wondering what context screw is being used in, in this particular.

TAPPER: I'm sure, it's a -- it's a rhetorical screw. It is a -- it is somebody does you wrong? Then you have to do wrong back to them presumably. Although, you know --

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: I'm not sure that that was the true intention.

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY PAYROLL CORP. ATTORNEY: They're not mutually exclusive

TAPPER: Right.

HUNT: I guess that's fair enough.

TAPPER: Another excerpt from the book 3 p.m. Allen Weisselberg, my CFO comes in for a meeting. He's been with me for 30 years and keeps a handle on everything again. These are books published by Penguin Random House, books by Mr. Trump, one called, "Trump: How to Get Rich." The other one called, "Trump: Think Like a Billionaire." And these excerpts are being read into the record.

Yes, Kasie.

HUNT: Yes, well and this seems to tie in to they have to make it all come back to Donald Trump, right? It seems like one of the toughest things they have to prove is the extent of Donald Trump's knowledge about what Michael Cohen was doing.

TAPPER: All the women, here's another excerpt Kasie. Sorry to interrupt.

HUNT: No, it's OK.

TAPPER: This is -- this is another one. Quote, "All the women on "The Apprentice," the TV show flirted with me consciously or unconsciously. That's to be expected. A sexual dynamic is always present between people unless you are a sexualist, which is a curious way to view the world.

HONIG: Yeah, so what's going on here? I think it's two things. First of all, as Kasie was saying, a big point of dispute yesterday. It was, to what extent is Donald Trump aware of what's going on within his organization? His defense is this is all happening behind his back and now they're showing excerpts when Donald Trump or his ghostwriter. But Donald -- it's attributable to Donald Trump said in a book. I was on top of everything. Allen Weisselberg, everything he did was under my command and control.

It looks like the second thing that they're going for with this book is his comments about the way he views women's sexual dynamic is always present.

I do want to point out a bit of a tactical mistake here I think by Trump's defense. They could have stipulated to this, I mean, you just sign a piece of paper saying these are the books --

TAPPER: He wrote these books.

HONIG: Right. He wrote these books. These are the books. And then they go in and sort of dry form. They go in in book form. Now, what's happening because he refused to stipulate is there is a human being on the stand Sally Franklin. And she's reading these excerpts out loud to the jury and that --

BASH: So they could have avoided this?

HONIG: Yes, if they had stipulated then what would have happened is, the books would have come into evidence, a prosecutor would have probably gotten up and read it dry to the -- to the jury.

But instead they're seeing from a normal human being Sally Franklin who presumably is relatable and a professional and she's reading these sort of awkward excerpts to the jury. It's going to hit harder that way.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Also, she's a woman.

HONIG: Yup.

GANGEL: And she's not a hostile -- hostile witness in -- in the whole thing. And -- and just to the point of Trump running everything, you know, it is going to come up over and over again. How many CEOs actually sign every check.

TAPPER: Right.

GANGEL: I'm not a CEO. But I can't remember the last time I wrote a check anymore and signed a check.

BRENNAN: Jamie, this is a little different because I don't think the public realizes that the Trump organization is really a mom-and-pop company like steroids.

GANGEL: Right.

BRENNAN: It is a privately held company. Its assets are substantial, but it is a privately held company. It's not fair to really compare it to say GE or IBM. I mean, it's -- it's -- he signs the checks when he's the president because the checks of his personal account. He's the only guy that can sign, right?

TAPPER: I guess -- I guess, the point that Jamie's making is that -- that shows the extent to which he'd be involved and he would know everything.

GANGEL: He has been throughout this trial from witnesses who are not hostile been presented as the brain behind everything that he micromanages, that he cares that if Allen Weisselberg sent him a check to sign and he didn't like it, which I think happened often with him. He is known not to -- to pay up always. He would put void and send it back. There is, I think, a very clear pattern that Donald Trump was running this business.

BASH: And that really is a key that we need to remember throughout this day in particular as we anticipate hearing from Stormy Daniels. And we're already hearing and seeing some pretty salacious rhetoric that underneath it all the -- the core of the prosecution's case is dry is about payments and cooking -- allegedly cooking the books.

HONIG: Exactly. That's -- that's the key point here. How much did Donald Trump know? Was this being done with his knowledge, without his knowledge? They're blaming Michael Cohen. And so the -- the prosecution theory is all of this was done with Trump's knowledge and blessing.

TAPPER: And right now in the court, the prosecution is trying to use Donald Trump's own words against him from his best-selling books among the quotes, quote, "If you don't know every aspect of what you're doing down to the paper clips, you're setting yourself up for some unwelcome surprises," unquote.

The prosecution using his own words from these books published under Donald Trump's name should, suggesting he really was a very hands-on CEO. We're going to have much more from inside court after this quick break. You're watching CNN Special Live Coverage.

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