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Today, Stormy Daniels Expected to Testify in Trump Trial. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 07, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: How to pinch pennies down to the paperclip, see all the invoices. Prosecutors are currently using Donald Trump's own words from his own books to make the point that the former president makes it his business to know every detail, big and small, about his business affairs.

The government trying to convince the jury that they should not believe the defense when they suggest Trump did not know about the alleged scheme to silence Stormy Daniels.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. I'm Anderson Cooper in New York.

Today, we hear from the adult film star and director under oath. We've already heard lawyers for the prosecution and the defense litigate just how descriptive Daniels would be about her alleged sexual encounter with the former president.

Right now, this notes from our folks inside the courtroom saying there's an excerpt being read now to a prosecution attorney saying from the witness, Sally Franklin, who works for a publisher. The excerpt from the book is, I told him I didn't want excuses and I thought he was doing a lousy job managing my cash.

Again, Sally Franklin is reading these excerpts on the witness stand from Trump's books. Another one says, always question invoices. Never accept a contractor's first bid. Negotiate, negotiate, or get out.

Paula, this is all about just amplifying the message, which we have heard now several times that Trump, when it comes to his money, he is signing all the checks. He will void a check if he doesn't want to pay, which he often does not want to pay or wants to, in this words, always question invoices, never accept a contractor's first bid, negotiate, negotiate. There are untold number of stories of him stiffing contractors who have done work for his various enterprises to try to basically him just refusing to pay.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely.

COOPER: There's another update. Todd Blanche has started his cross- examination. His first question is asking if the co-author was a ghost writer, meaning did Donald Trump actually write this book.

REID: which is, you know, I think the perfect first question for the defense. But Sally Franklin is certainly not a household name, nowhere near the blockbuster witness we're about to hear from, but she's reading in some significant details here.

Now, this is Trump slash his ghostwriter's own words. Now, it's Franklin saying that she's not sure how much the ghostwriter contributed, but what prosecutors are getting at here is how Trump has been espousing this theory that you should always know down to the paperclips what is going on with your business.

And this is something that we've heard David Packer testify to how detail-oriented Trump was.

COOPER: Franklin is saying, all I know is that she helped her primary author in some way. A ghostwriter sometimes will write the entire book, as perhaps is in the case of the Governor Noem, we've seen this past week, Kristi Noem, or may work closely with the author both writing different things.

REID: Yes, we've heard several witnesses testify to what Franklin is reading in this book here about how detail-oriented Trump was. Jeff McConney talked about yesterday, right? Trump is involved in everything. The problem for prosecutors is McConney, though, put a stop and he said, but in 2017, when Trump went to the White House, a lot of his daily involvement changed. The process for even getting checks signed, everything changed. So, prosecutors have to overcome that.

But Sally Franklin, an unexpected witness, is bringing in some really helpful excerpts from Trump's books here.

COOPER: I want to bring in somebody who is central to this Hush Money trial, Michael Rothfeld. He's a former reporter for The Wall Street Journal, currently with The New York Times. He helped break both the Karen McDougal story in 2016 and the Stormy Daniels story in 2018. Michael is now an investigative reporter for The New York Times.

Michael, I just will be occasionally reading excerpts from her people. Right now, again, Franklin has just said all I know is that she helped her primary author in some ways. What do you think Stormy Daniels helps the prosecution with today?

MICHAEL ROTHFELD, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, she's at the center of the trial, so, you know, her hush money deal is what led ultimately to the charges that Trump is accused of covering up, you know, these business records at his company. So, if she were not to testify, I think the jurors would reasonably ask, well, why hasn't she come here? And, you know, the defense would definitely make an issue of it.

So, I think the prosecution didn't really have too much choice about bringing her just to show her, hey, here she is, there's nothing to hide.

COOPER: In your reporting initially, how much involvement did Stormy Daniels have with sort of the mechanics of the deal? Do we know?

ROTHFELD: She wasn't directly involved, you know, in negotiating the deal with Michael Cohen, you know, and she definitely didn't deal with Donald Trump.

[10:05:00]

So, she's not going to be able to testify about that. She really won't be able to testify about his motives.

What she will potentially be able to testify about is the context. I mean, first of all, she can testify in the judge's rule that she can talk about the fact that they had a sexual encounter. His lawyers objected to that. But the judge is going to allow some details of that.

So, that will potentially combat the argument by Trump's lawyers that she was trying to shake him down, you know, none of this ever happened. And then she could also talk about the context, you know, that when Access Hollywood tape came out in early October, that's when Michael Cohen -- you know, she'll know. That's when the negotiations started in earnest to sell her story.

COOPER: Todd Blanche is asking about the book covers and how their chosen. Both books shown in court feature photos of Trump.

When you broke this story, you were with The Wall Street Journal, how long were you working on it? And I was just rereading the story. I mean, the denials by the White House were quite strong.

ROTHFELD: Well, we worked on -- I mean, we had broken the Karen McDougal story right before the election in 2016. That was the National Enquirer paid her $150,000. And then the Stormy Daniels story took us like another year to really -- to figure out.

We suspected she had been paid because we knew she was out there talking, you know, trying to sell her story, but it took us another year to actually figure out it was Michael Cohen and that he had paid her $130,000 through a shell company. So, it was a long time of just sort of painstaking reporting to get to that point.

And then the denials that you mentioned, I mean, her lawyer, Michael Cohen, basically commandeered these denials.

COOPER: Sorry, let me just jump in. Sorry, let me just jump in. The cross-examination is over. Now, there's a redirect by the prosecution. The ghostwriter works for the author, Franklin says, so the prosecution is just following up with a few redirected questions to make some clarifications.

I'm sorry for interrupting, Michael.

ROTHFELD: No, that's okay. No, I was just going to tell you that when she denied it, Michael Cohen essentially got a denial from her to give to us. And her former lawyer, Keith Davidson, testified last week that those denials were carefully crafted to essentially not be technically untrue. Like she said that she didn't have an affair with Trump, but, in fact, she only had sex with him one time. So, there was a lot of like sort of careful wording there.

COOPER: And in terms of Stormy Daniels, the relationship between her and Keith Davidson, what was that like? Do you know?

ROTHFELD: They actually did not really have a relationship. So, she had an agent named Gina Rodriguez at the time who was herself a former porn actress who represented a lot of sort of like third tier celebrities who wanted to -- they had essentially dirt, like Tiger Woods' mistresses and people who had relationships with other celebrities like Charlie Sheen.

And so Gina Rodriguez was representing Stormy and she was the link between Stormy and Keith Davidson, her lawyer. And Keith Davidson also had some dealings with the National Enquirer. So, there was a group of people that were working together in this sort of Hollywood scandal, paparazzi industry. And that's sort of how Stormy got connected to Michael Cohen in the end.

COOPER: Yes. Michael Rothfeld, thank you so much for talking to us this morning. I appreciate. A lot to watch for with Stormy Daniels when she comes on the stand.

Trump is speaking length-right, gesturing with his hands to his attorney as he whispers to her. He also wrote note moments ago on a pad on his desk. The attorney is now handing a note to a colleague.

We've seen this a lot, obviously, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Look, what this feels like to me, to use a sports metaphor, Anderson, you'll forgive me, is what it must be like to ice the kicker here. Everyone in that room, except for the jury, knows that Stormy Daniels is up next.

I'm not saying that Sally Franklin is an interesting witness. She's adding some credibility to what we heard yesterday from Jeff McConney. But Stormy Daniels is lingering out there right now. So, everything you're seeing right now, I think, is done with this extra added level of tension. They all know what's coming.

And it's got to be excruciating. And Trump is, we understand, sitting at the desk, speaking at length, gesturing with his hands. But I have to believe that's what's going through his head as well.

REID: Yes, I think that's right, because yesterday we really didn't see him do too much. I mean, he sort of paid attention. The one time he was really wrapped attention was watching his defense attorney, Todd Blanche, do a cross-examination of an official from the accounting department.

[10:10:02]

We know that Trump is at times frustrated with his defense attorneys because they're not putting on more of a show, right? That's what he likes, people who play to that audience of one. But as he's seen in the recent civil trials, that does not always work well in front of a judge or in front of a jury.

So, I will say that, overall, his decorum has been much better than it was in the civil cases, but his lawyer, Todd Blanche, is taking a very different approach than, for example, Alina Haba in the civil case. And it was interesting to watch him. The one time he was really paying attention, he turned his entire body and he was fixed on Todd Blanche while he was doing an otherwise pretty inconsequential cross- examination.

COOPER: It will also be interesting to see when Stormy Daniels does take the stand and when the defense is able to cross-examine her. Who actually does that? Is it going to be Todd Blanche? Is it going to be Emil Bove?

REID: Yes, it's a great question, because Emil Bove has done most of the cross examinations. Now, I expect that Todd Blanche is really laser-focused on Michael Cohen and perhaps Stormy Daniels as well, because they know that this case is going to be, you know, make or break on a few specific witnesses. And I would expect that's where Todd Blanche's attention has been throughout this case, while Emil Bove has been doing all the other crosses.

COOPER: And the judge is accepting some exhibits into evidence. This judge has been very careful, I mean, I saw this when I was in the court last week, looking at each piece of evidence that the prosecution wants to have a witness testify to, and they really listened to the defense's objections on that.

You know, obviously, the former president is going after this judge, I think anybody who sat in this courtroom is impressed by how the judge interacts with the defense and how cautious he seems to be to try to be fair to both sides.

REID: I think that's exactly right. And another place we see evidence of this, Trump's attorney Todd Blanche is whispering to Trump after he came back to the defense table. They were arguing about something with prosecutors in front of the judge.

But if you look at the gag order decision yesterday, obviously not a good day when you're found in criminal contempt, not a good day when you're threatened with jail. But if you look more closely, the judge said that he did not find beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump's comments about Michael Cohen were not protected political speech.

They have been making a political speech argument since this case began. So, I think it's significant that the judge really conceded that he could respond to Michael Cohen, and then also took an ambiguous statement that Trump made about David Packer's testimony being a nice guy, being a good guy, and let that slide as well.

So, it does appear that this judge really does listen to the defense, and at times, at times, sides of that.

COOPER: An epilogue from a book is being shown, and according to Franklin, it bears a quote from Mary Trump's mother, trust in God and be true to yourself. BERMAN: I am struck by how hard the defense is fighting to keep some of this information from these books out of the case right now. You would think it would be very mundane, but it does seem to be something that they're at least a little bit nervous of or they don't want to be part of this.

COOPER: Well, I think any time you have, you know, Donald Trump saying things that indicate he is micromanaging, that he is aware of, you know, every paperclip, everything that's spent and, and the importance of Allen Weisselberg and their, their long relationship.

I mean, that's one of the things -- Allen Weisselberg is not going to be testifying in this. Allen Weisselberg, people say, who know the Trump organization and their history will say he knows where all the bodies are, are buried. He has done a big favor for Donald Trump in numerous cases.

BERMAN: But of all the things you would think Donald Trump would be nervous about in this case with Stormy Daniels looming a few minutes away, books that he took some part in writing you would think might be the type of thing that is less nerve-wracking.

COOPER: Right now, prosecutors are using Trump's best-selling books as evidence against him. Another quote, when I look back, that was great advice, concise and wise at once. I didn't really get it at first, but because it sounded good, I stuck to it, a quote from DJT reads.

A lot more ahead, you're watching CNN's special coverage of the Trump hush money trial. We'll be right back.

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[10:15:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN Special Coverage of Donald J. Trump's hush money cover-up trial. In minutes, CNN reporters inside court might see Stormy Daniels, the adult film star and director whose rendezvous with Mr. Trump is at the heart of this case. We expect the prosecutors to call her by her real name, Stephanie Clifford, as the second witness of the day.

Right now, a woman named Rebecca Mangold, who is with the prosecutor's office, is questioning Sally Franklin, who is with Penguin Random House Publishers, talking about books that were ghostwritten with Donald Trump, proclaiming his business acumen and getting into details from those books about how hands-on he was.

Right now, they're talking about Meredith McIver, who is the ghostwriter in question. Sally Franklin is saying, as you know, my door is always -- oh, this is, I'm sorry, Donald Trump says, as you know, my door is always open, so Meredith heard everything, and she's taken good notes.

This is about how Meredith worked on these books with Mr. Trump. I guess they're trying to get to the bottom of how much of these proclamations in the book are him, how much are the ghostwriter. She's done a remarkable job of helping me put my thoughts and experiences on paper. I am tremendously grateful to her.

Mr. Trump wrote a little fun fact, as at Meredith McIver, the ghostwriter in question here, also helped Melania Trump write her 2016 Republican National Convention speech, and later took some blame for lifting portions of that speech from a speech previously given by Michelle Obama.

The jury is being shown additional quotes from a page, including one from Trump's father. Spangled has turned to the Trump, How to Be a Billionaire Book. Know everything you can about what you're doing, the quote from Fred Trump, Donald Trump's father, reads.

So, Bill, what are they doing here? They're just trying to get to the bottom of how many of these quotes in which Donald Trump talks about how in the weeds he is on everything are him versus how much were made up or concocted by the ghost writer?

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP PAYROLL CORP. ATTORNEY: Jake, that's what it appears to be that they're doing, but it's a little bit of overkill. I understand there's no stipulations, they have to call this witness, but they've got to focus on the ball here, and the ball is, is it in furtherance of another crime?

Coming up with quotes from the president's late father and the president's late mother, I mean, it's interesting, I guess. It shows a little bit about his upbringing, but I don't see how that gets the prosecution to the felony.

I don't know why that they're duking it out like this, but they are, but I don't think it advances the ball at all. I mean, I think the defense gets up there in closing in a week or two and says, big deal.

TAPPER: So, another quote here, something else about God that any billionaire knows. This is a tribute to Mr. Trump. He is in the details and you need to be there too. I couldn't run a business any other way. This is again, Ms. Franklin, Sally Franklin with Penguin Random House.

And the idea I guess, Elie, is there -- I mean, I take Bill's point that this doesn't actually prove the commission of the crime but it does seem to suggest that he is a details guy.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I actually think this is quite important evidence for the prosecution. I think it helps their case a lot when it comes to how in the weeds was he. I mean, here's some of the excerpts. Here's, I mean, the one we just saw. He is in the details and you need to be there too. Earlier quotes that the jury heard were, you need to know everything, quote, down to the paper clips. That's a memorable line. You need to know how to pinch pennies, always question invoices. That's kind of the heart of the case here. Did he know what these invoices were for?

TAPPER: Another excerpt when you sign a check yourself, you're seeing what's really going on inside your business. And, Laura Coates, they're trying to use this presumably the prosecutors to prove that Mr. Trump knew the checks he was cutting to Michael Cohen that they were, in fact, reimbursements for hush money payments, as is being alleged.

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, this is a man who signed his checks with a Sharpie. You couldn't mistake that for anyone else's. But remember about how this works in the overall trial. It's been several weeks now, but primacy and recency still rings true for jurors. What they heard first, what they'll hear last.

Let's go what they're going to hear last. They're going to hear last, a summation by the prosecution. You have the excerpt as well saying, and if people see your signature at the bottom of the check, then they know you're watching them, and they screw you less. These are Confucius statements as well. And so you think about how this goes.

But the summation part of things is what you're focused on. The prosecution is going to use bits and pieces of every little thing they gather from the witnesses and beyond. Now, they've ended their redirect. And they're going to summarize it at the end for that last punch for that jury. So, they're going to have bits and pieces from the catch and kill to what has been said particularly by -- for Stormy Daniels and others. Trump is turning his back up for re-cross as well, going to talk about a particular point and maybe try to undermine what's happening.

And we hear that jurors are actually writing on their notepads some of the quotes that Elie probably already pointed out. But all this is going to go towards that overall puzzle. They want the very last thing the jurist to hear to be a summation of all these points having a connective tissue thread that will include, this person you're telling me, this guy who wrote these books, who was a mom and pop owner, who ran his company, his name's on the wall, on the door, on the building, had no idea that $420,000 went out without his control? Come on.

TAPPER: Well, so that's definitely the argument the prosecutor is going to make. Allow me to posit what the defense might say, Jamie Gangel, and that is, first of all, this is a book, this is Donald Trump trying to project an image to the world. This is not necessarily day-to-day, minute-to-minute fact. It is image, right? That's one thing they might say.

The second thing they might say is, yes, sure, that was the case in 2010 or whenever these books were being written, but in 2016, he was running for president, in 2017 he was president. So, maybe he was a little less in the weeds when it came to the day-to-day operation of Trump, the Trump Organization. Judge Merchan inside the courtroom has called the lawyers to the bench. Jamie?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: But they have presented all of these witnesses who are not hostile, Hope Hicks, Rhona Graff, people who work for the Trump Organization, who back this up, who say this is exactly how he ran the business, that Donald Trump do everything down to the paper clips. As we've reported before, his children who worked in the company with him were known they did not make a decision without going to him. It's setting up between the book and the other witnesses.

TAPPER: Sally Franklin is off the stand, by the way, the Penguin Random House editor, which would seem to suggest that the second witness of the day that we expect, Stormy Daniels, will be called soon.

GANGEL: Just this speaks to countering the argument that Michael Cohen went rogue. That's where it went.

[10:25:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: It does seem pretty -- it does seem effective in a way, the way that they have laid this out, as you were saying, Elie, that this seems to be very important. And I also think any of us, whoever -- if you do deal with Donald Trump, obviously, they have to prove this to the jury.

But, certainly, my experience reporting on him was similar in terms of how he paid attention to everything that was said about him and he remembered it, he would bring it back up in conversations with you. This was not a guy who allowed things like this, especially if it's so personal something like this to kind of go unnoticed.

And, obviously, it's on the prosecutor to prove that to the jury, but --

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: On the cusp of getting to the moment that you referred to Jamie a couple of weeks ago, which is when we get to the big witnesses, everything that we have focused on and witnessed in the hearing room will look smaller in the rear view mirror because of how important this witness is coming up.

TAPPER: Just coming up. Yes. Trump right now is whispering to one of his attorneys. Lisa Franklin is off the stand. We are expecting Stormy Daniels to come and testify any moment now. I'm sure that Christine Cornell and Jane Rosenberg, the courtroom artists, are sharpening their pastels, preparing -- changing the page, getting ready for the big moment.

It's still, I have to say, remarkable that we're not allowed to televise, that the New York courtrooms don't televise this incredibly historic moment. So, we're bringing these drips and drabs from our reporters inside, and the only images are select few photographs, and some lovely pastels by Christine Cornell and Jane Rosenberg, my two favorite courtroom sketch artists.

One lawyer has consistently stated the defense table with Trump while the other two lawyers go to the bench. What are they talking about now, do you think, Laura? Because, obviously, they're done with Ms. Franklin, the publisher, all of that -- all those quotes that could have been stipulated, but Donald Trump won't stipulate to anything. So, they read those. And now they're preparing for Stormy Daniels. And this will likely be very contentious.

COATES: I would say so. And remember, first of all, this is a little bit of a change because we've seen time and time again Donald Trump being alone at that defense table while all the lawyers go up. And I was in the courtroom when they approached the bench talking seven lawyers go up to the bench. You're talking about the five from the prosecution side and you've got two going up to the bench. And so the jury's seeing this. It's quite a thing to see.

But they're going to refocus this. If Stormy Nails is getting ready to come up, they already began the morning talking about what would be the parameters of her discussion. Would they go into the more salacious details?

And, by the way, keep in mind, I want to go to my tablet for a second because you know I love my tablet on this whole thing. And just think about what you actually have to prove. You have to prove that there was an intent to defraud, that there was a false business entry. That's the number one thing here. None of this has to do with whether or not an actual sexual affair or interaction took place.

That's important because the only purpose of having Stormy Daniels is to talk about the NDA, how it all went down, how that all was transpiring. But, really, it doesn't actually matter for the prosecution's case, whether or not they actually did have a sexual liaison. All that matters is the reason for the intent. Were you trying to commit another crime? In their instance, it alleges to be an issue in terms of campaign finance.

But then look at this, this breakdown is important here. Remember, we're going to hear more about this testimony, the $130,000 hush money payment to Daniels' lawyer that was made to her. We've already heard from that attorney. Then you have everything else that goes into here. But this is the meat of the matter when you're talking about what's happening here.

And remember, it's not just a one-off. You're talking about every time you see this red square, that happens to be an incense of another falsified record. So, all of this, they have to have her up there to suggest that there was, in fact, this payment made. But it doesn't actually matter the details of sexual affair at all. All that matters is he believed it happened.

TAPPER: So, Jamie Gangel, how is Stormy Daniels preparing for this? Because she's not going to wing it, and I'm sure the prosecutors -- I mean, one of the things that the defense has been drilling at with some of the witnesses, including David Pecker, the tabloid magnate, is you went over this with the prosecutors, as if that is abnormal and as if it's nefarious. I'm sure the prosecutors had to go over a lot of the stuff with her as well.

GANGEL: So, the three lawyers there, the words, trial prep, sound familiar, call it rehearsing, call it preparation, whatever it is. There is -- what is --

HUNT: Murder boards. GANGEL: Murder boards, yes. There's no question that she has been prepared, not just for the questions the prosecutors are going to ask her, but for what the defense is going to do, and they will attack her.

I think it goes without saying that Stormy Daniels is an entertainer. She is a performer. She knows how to command a room. We should be watching how the jury watches her and also how the jury looks at her and Donald Trump.

TAPPER: In just minutes, adult film star and director Stormy Daniels takes the witness stand inside that Manhattan courtroom.

[10:30:02]

Stick right here, you're watching CNN special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money cover of trial. We are going to squeeze in a quick break. We'll be right back.