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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Stormy Daniels Testifies In Trump Hush Money Trial. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 07, 2024 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:01:39]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Welcome back to our special coverage of the historic Donald Trump hush money criminal trial. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Brianna Keilar is just outside the New York courthouse for us.

Stormy Daniels is still on the stand right now after testifying about her alleged sexual encounter with Trump back in 2006 and the 2016 payment she received to keep quiet about it, $130,000. This is such an unprecedented and bizarre moment in American history. First time ever a former U.S. president has faced a criminal trial.

Right now a lot is going on and I want to send it over to Brianna who's joining us. Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yes, Wolf, that's right. And right now Daniels is detailing the media frenzy after that hush money deal became public. Last hour, the defense moved for a mistrial. They argued that the salacious details that Daniels shared under oath were prejudicial. The judge did deny that motion, but acknowledged that some of the prosecution's questions about the alleged sexual encounter did not need to be asked.

We have Phil Mattingly and Paula Reid who have been following every twist and turn in this. They are back with us now. And Paula, we're really at the heart of this. Exactly what the prosecution here alleges that Donald Trump wanted to conceal and from which the alleged crimes flow.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right. While she cannot speak directly to the falsifying business records, today she's told the jury the story of what happened allegedly between her and then-citizen Trump and what it was that then-candidate Trump wanted so desperately to conceal in October 2016. So again, she's not going to make or break the case here, but she tells an important story that the jury will likely take into consideration.

KEILAR: What do you think about what we've heard or what the jury's heard so far and we've been monitoring?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT & ANCHOR: I mean, I can't speak for the jury. I could have done without I think as a general being.

KEILAR: But they can't. But they really can't, right?

MATTINGLY: Right. And to Todd Blanche's point, when he came back and they moved for a mistrial, they cannot ring that bell, even the parts that were objected to and the objections that were sustained. I think you recognize right now this is - the contrast that we're getting from our people that are in the room, from our great team that's in the room, compared to this morning where it was very clear Donald Trump was agitated. It was very clear his attorneys were moving repeatedly to object, some of which were sustained.

And now they're describing Trump is a little bit more kind of relaxed, laid back. And I think it goes to the content this morning was extraordinarily embarrassing on a human level. It was, I think, probably the worst thing you could imagine for a person who is always able to respond, is always able to clap back, is always able to attack whoever he feels like is attacking him. Obviously, he's not allowed to. He seemed to attempt to a little bit this morning with a truth posting that he 30 minutes later had to take down.

But I think it's a recognition that this morning was bad. But now they're going through two things. One, what Paul laid out, and two, they're trying to front run, I think, what is about to come. Go ahead.

REID: Prosecutors have just finished their direct examination of Stormy Daniels. So the defense is going to get a crack at her any moment now. And it's interesting, Susan Necheles, Trump's only female attorney, he has three attorneys in there. She is walking to the podium to begin cross-examination.

I think this is notable because Susan Hoffinger, she is the one who did the direct examination of Stormy Daniels.

[15:05:03]

And it appears that there is somewhat of a strategic decision that if we're going to talk about these sensitive sexual related details, perhaps they believe it's better to have a woman talking to a woman in front of the jury. It does appear like a strategic decision because neither one of these attorneys has been doing much of the questioning so far.

KEILAR: Such a good point.

MATTINGLY: It also helps explain what Hoffinger was doing in the last 10 minutes, which was - she was getting out in front on several issues. What about the defamation suit you filed? Talk about Michael Avenatti and your disagreement with him on - over specific things.

Obviously, Avenatti is in jail. What about the podcast appearance? What about the book that you wrote? Really trying to get in front of things that they know are going to be coming in the cross-examination, which has now started.

KEILAR: All right, you guys, thank you so much. If you could stand by for us as we're still monitoring this testimony.

Let's talk more about this now with Marc Lotter. He's a former special assistant to President Trump. I wonder what you thought, Marc, this lunch was like for the Trump legal team that they had. What do you think it was like to discuss how things had gone in the initial testimony of Stormy Daniels?

MARC LOTTER, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: Well, I think they probably thought two things. Number one, we're now three weeks into this and we still don't have any evidence that - of the bookkeeping errors that are allegedly a crime. I mean, he made a payment to a lawyer. He listed the payment as a legal expense and they're saying that's a crime and we still don't really have any testimony or evidence about it.

But second, I think even as salacious as those details were, it actually reinforces the narrative that he did not want Mrs. Trump or his family to know about it, which is what Hope Hicks testified to. So it's starting - it's creating that narrative. I think that the prosecution witnesses are actually creating the defense narrative for them.

KEILAR: There, I mean, there's also been testimony, including from Hope Hicks, that there was reason for him to not want this to get out there because of the election. So there is that narrative that has been out there by someone very much in the know. I guess the question then would be the link, right, when it comes to Donald Trump being behind this falsification of the records and is that link being painted clearly enough for the jury.

I do wonder, though, from your perspective, before court was in session this morning, the former president posted a Truth Social. He said, "I've just recently been told who the witness is today. This is unprecedented, no time for lawyers to prepare."

We have to be clear. The reason that there is this prosecutorial discretion on saying who these witnesses are going to be is because he tends to get on social media and talk about them or talk about things he's not supposed to. He deleted that post following the judge yesterday threatening jail time. Why do you think Trump deleted the post?

LOTTER: His lawyers probably told him that this is not the hill you want to die on and or tempt the judge with this. That's not where you want to go. And so let's let the testimony, the record of their upcoming cross-examination lead the day and not necessarily focus on once again, are we going to spend another few days of debating about whether you were in contempt of the court order.

And so basically by quickly deleting it, you've pretty much removed that as a potential, you would think in the eyes of the judge.

KEILAR: What do you think about what the jury has heard today and the effect this may have on them?

LOTTER: I'm not sure if it's going to shock the jury. I mean, obviously we've had, you know, going on now 30, 40 years. We've had presidents who've had these kinds of issues come up with them. Obviously these stories themselves have been in the news for many, many, many years. Nothing new has come out about it. So I'm not sure that they're shocked by it, but they're just basically, I think, waiting to see where do we - where are we finding this - the - that payments made in 2017 were to affect the 2016 election.

I mean, I get it if he was investing in a time machine that might affect the 2016 election, but payments that are months and if not up to a year later after the fact, that doesn't really impact an election that's already taken place.

KEILAR: He clearly had some concerns according to Hope Hicks. I do just want to make that clear again. So I guess the point you're making is that in 2018 this coming out, it wouldn't affect the election.

LOTTER: Well, when you're discussing it in - when you're discussing it in 2017 in past tense or when it obviously later came out in 2018 you, you of course could have said, well, if this had changed, if it'd come out in 2016 or if it comes up right before the 20 election. And I think the reason why we're having this trial is it's because we're coming up on the 2024 election, because again, this is more about keeping him off the campaign trail.

[15:10:00]

It's more about getting all of this salacious dirty laundry out there rather than actually anything to do with the rule of law. We still haven't been told what the ultimate laws are that were broken for paying your lawyer and listing it as legal services.

KEILAR: Yes. Well, they're alleging obviously that it's falsification of documents. Of course, we'll have to see if the jury believes that the link is made here. And obviously, some of the things that you said we'll have to see if the jury feels that way. Some people certainly feel that way looking at this, but a lot of people do not. Marc Lotter, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

LOTTER: Great to see you, Brianna.

KEILAR: And you're watching CNN special coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial in New York. The defense has just begun cross examining Stormy Daniels. It's certain to be dramatic as we wait to see what happens here. Stay with us. We'll have more in just a moment.

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[15:15:17]

BLITZER: Welcome back to our special coverage of president Trump's criminal hush money trial. Stormy Daniels is now being questioned by the defense and they're wasting no time trying to totally discredit her. I want to read part of an exchange that Stormy Daniels just had with Trump's defense attorney. Trump's attorney, Susan Necheles says this, "Am I correct that you hate president Trump?" That's the question. Daniels: "Yes." Necheles: "You want him to go to jail?" Daniels: "I want him to be held accountable." Necheles: "You want him to go to jail?" Daniels: "If he's found guilty, yes."

Let's discuss further. Elie Honig, what's your reaction to that exchange?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this is - yes, this is some searing cross-examination so far. It's quite effective. So let's look at the exchange you just talked about. They got her to admit right up front. She hates the defendant. I mean, you almost never see that. I had a case where one time the witness had sent a sort of negative letter to the defendant and that went - boy, that was used. Here she says - at least she's honest. At least she says straight up. I hate him. "Am I correct that you hate president Trump?" Answer: "Yes."

Later, they moved into her financial motive. They said, you want to make money? And she said, again, candidly, yes. I want to make money. People want to make money. And now the questioning relates to a lawsuit. It's important that people understand what happened in this lawsuit. Stormy Daniels brought a defamation case against Donald Trump. Stormy Daniels told a story about how she was threatened in a parking lot. And then Donald Trump sent, as he's want to do, a negative tweet, I think, at the time saying that it was a bogus story and attacking the mainstream media.

She then sued him for defamation. And that suit was thrown out by the judge and the judge awarded Donald Trump attorney's fees in the range of half a million dollars. And Stormy Daniels was asked about that. And her testimony was, she said, quote, "He prevailed, but I was not found to have lost." That's a lousy answer.

I mean, the case was dismissed and now she has to pay a half million dollars legal fees. And one other detail, she also admitted that - she said that if he is jailed, she would dance and she laughed. And I don't think the jury is going to like that. I don't think they see this as a laughing matter or a matter for personal vengeance and retribution.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think these are pretty incendiary statements. And the one about she would dance was a tweet.

HONIG: Yes.

BORGER: And so now you have two people in this trial who have expressed complete hatred for Donald Trump. That would be Michael Cohen, whom we have yet to hear from, and Stormy Daniels.

And she didn't back away from it, but she wouldn't admit she lost the defamation case, which I don't understand. And she owes a lot of money to Donald Trump. So I think it kind of goes to her credibility as a witness, because she comes with an incredible bias against Trump.

BLITZER: What do you think the defense is trying to prove during its cross-examination?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I think cross-examination is always an important opportunity for the defense to attack the credibility of the witness. And this is common. And quite frankly, we could have anticipated that this is how a cross against, frankly, any witness but particularly Stormy Daniels would have gone. So I'm not that stunned that they're sort of going after her in this way.

But I think what the things that they're doing that's starting to shake out, number one, the bias to the points that we were talking about a moment ago, this idea of having - there's always a tweet, having tweeted pretty harsh things about the defendant himself.

Now look, he's a public figure and we've been talking about this for quite some time, and a lot of people were tweeting things about the former president. However, when you're a witness in a criminal trial against him, it's going to come back to haunt you. Do you hate him and so on.

And something - there was this back and forth over even Stormy Daniels laughing. She was chuckling in court. And this is something we were talking about a little bit earlier in this program, how that will play before the jury.

Now look, some human beings are nervous laughers, right? Frankly, I am, too. But I'm also not testifying in front of a jury. And I think what the part of that cross-examination was, was saying that, why are you laughing? Like, do you find this funny? And I think that's the kind of thing that can get in the jury's head, thinking that, number one, this person has a bias, but also, number two, this person isn't taking this testimony seriously.

BLITZER: It's interesting. Our reporters who are inside the courtroom, Gloria, are telling us that the jurors are taking notes and they're watching very, very closely everything she's saying.

BORGER: I'm not surprised. I mean, I was taking notes about her statements just now and I think earlier today, when she was talking about her encounter with Donald Trump, I'm sure they were taking notes about that.

This has been, according to our reporters in the courtroom, this has been a very alert and interested jury.

[15:20:03]

And today, aside from a little bit of talk about the payments, this has been very personal about Stormy Daniels and her attitudes towards Donald Trump and how she felt she'd been treated by Trump. And I think that's something of great interest to the jury as they try to decide her credibility.

BLITZER: She testified that, under oath, she hates him.

BORGER: Yes. KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, then she also just testified, they just brought this tweet into evidence in which she said that she would go to jail before she ever paid him a dime. And they're actually putting that into evidence here. The judge saying that was okay. Her team had said they shouldn't enter that into evidence.

More of these kind of scathing tweets going through, all the things that she said about him. I think having talked to Donald Trump's legal team, this is really the main crux of their cross-examination. It's not going to be necessarily the story. It's going to be poking holes in who she is as a witness.

BLITZER: Stormy Daniels says, that is me saying I will not pay for telling the truth, referring the truth about Donald Trump. Do you expect the Trump campaign to use the judge's dismissal of a mistrial motion by the defense as part of their campaign?

HOLMES: I think it's certainly possible, but I think what you're really going to see for the next couple of days is going to be Donald Trump's army of right-wing social media influencers going after Stormy Daniels, poking holes in who she is as a person, everything that she says, using the - actually what we're reporting, the transcript, the conversation, to try and paint a portrait of who this person is.

And the thing to continue to remember is that Donald Trump is under a gag order, but the people who surround him are not. And so he has people who are in his camp, right-wing social media influencers, who have millions of followers, who can blast out whatever they want about the witnesses. And you think you're going to see that. We know we're going to see it with Michael Cohen. They've told me that that's part of their strategy in terms of these people around Donald Trump. Likely, you're going to see it here, too.

BLITZER: Yes. That will be dramatic when Cohen appears in this courtroom, as well. Everybody stand by. Some very contentious moments just now as Donald Trump's attorneys cross-examine Stormy Daniels. Right now, they're asking her about tweets she posted about Trump's potentially going to jail.

Our special coverage will continue after a quick break.

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[15:27:00]

KEILAR: Welcome back to CNN special coverage of former President Trump's hush money criminal trial. And wow, there been some contentious moments just here in the past few moments as Stormy Daniels faces cross-examination at the hands of former President Trump's lawyers. We have Phil and Paula back with us. Wow. Take us through some of this, Paula.

REID: Yikes. So Stormy Daniels on the stand right now, only been on the stand for a short time. She's being cross-examined by Trump's attorney, Susan Necheles. And right off the bat, Susan Necheles got Stormy Daniels to admit that she hates Trump. She says, yes, I hate him. They point out the fact that Stormy Daniels has said publicly that she would, "Dance if Trump went to jail." So they're clearly establishing that Stormy Daniels does not like the defendant.

Now they're going through some things that Stormy Daniels has said about him publicly, including a tweet where she's talking about money that courts have said that she owes Trump hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees. And she says, this is Stormy Daniels, says, "I don't owe him (expletive) and I'll never give that orange turd a dime."

Now, Daniels said that this tweet is in retaliation for what he says about her. Now, this is when it got really heated, because Necheles confirms: "You call him names all the time." And Daniels starts to sort of yell, saying, "Yes. Because he made fun of me first." I mean, this is pretty - this is devolving pretty quickly, right? This is pretty toddler-esque conduct and lack of accountability.

But what the defense is very effectively getting at is Daniels' disdain for the defendant. This so far has been a very effective and dramatic cross and appears to continuing to become even more dramatic.

KEILAR: What do you think?

MATTINGLY: I think what's fascinating is the inversion of how two specific people here are reacting to everything, right? Our team in the room making very clear that Donald Trump has kind of leaned back a little bit. He was very engaged, very animated, very agitated over the course of the morning. Not so much anymore. Stormy Daniels, on the other hand, arms crossed. Things are very tense, starting to get very frustrated. And at one point, it seems raising her voice as well as Paul was reading through.

It underscores there has been a very clear shift, not just in how they're acting, but totally - but also in where this is going. We talked before - before the cross-examination started about how Susan Hoffinger seemed to be trying to front run some things, get some things out there about the defamation case, about some of the things she said, about the people she's talked to, now you understand why.

And it's way worse than you can possibly front run when it comes to what we've seen throughout the course of this route: Don't tweet, don't text, don't email, don't do any of those things. If you ever are going to be in a situation like this, because right now, for the defense, it's helping them out.

KEILAR: Why does it matter so much to the jury? I mean, would they expect Stormy Daniels to like former President Trump after all that has happened here?

REID: This is the first time we've seen someone who is outright hostile towards the defendant, right? David Pecker, a longtime admirer and friend, now exchanged. And Keith Davidson, didn't seem to care one way or another. They were trying to paint him as an extortionist, but he didn't seem to have a personal grievance against Trump.

[15:30:00]

We're hearing from Trump Organization employees. Hope Hicks, one of his longtime closest advisors, though they are now estranged. But this is someone who's saying on the stand, do I hate the defendant?