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CNN Live Event/Special

Donald Trump's Hush Money Trial; Testimony Regarding Cohen Phone Records Provided by an AT&T Compliance Analyst; On Monday, Michael Cohen Anticipated to Testify; Steve Bannon's Conviction Contempt Upheld by Appeals Court; Alvin Bragg, Manhattan District Attorney, Currently in Court; Susie Wiles, Prominent Trump Campaign Staffer, in Court. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired May 10, 2024 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN, the world's news network.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR, THE SOURCE AND CNN CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back to CNN's special live coverage of Donald Trump's hush money trial.

Right now, inside that courtroom behind me, the defense is beginning its cross-examination of a phone records custodian for AT&T. This happens after prosecutors are laying the foundation, entering the documents into the record that they are going to use to back up the accounts of their star witnesses in this case. Testimony from headlined names, like Michael Cohen, who a source has now told CNN does expect to testify under oath on Monday.

A lot to talk about with that of course we've got John E. Jones here who is a former U.S. District judge, a retired U.S. District judge in Pennsylvania. And Judge Jones, it's great to have you here. Anna Kaminsky also -- Anna Cominsky also back with us.

And judge, let me start with you because obviously, you know how to operate a courtroom and what that looks like. And watching Judge Merchan yesterday at the end of the day, as he was giving this, you know, upbraiding to Trump's team about how they have handled their -- while they were sitting there as the direct examination of Stormy Daniels was happening, but also their cross-examination of Stormy Daniels was quite remarkable. And I just wonder what you make of the scolding and how Trump's team handles that going forward for the rest of this trial.

[10:35:00]

JOHN E. JONES III, FORMER U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE, PENNSYLVANIA : That's a great question, Kaitlan. And clearly, I think the judge felt that the cross went on too long. And the cross did nothing but allow the witness to repeat at many junctures, damaging testimony, in fact, prejudicial testimony with respect to the former president. And, you know, he made the remark that they opened the door in the beginning by Trump flatly denying that the encounter took place. So, you can't have it all ways.

And, I think the cross-examination really lapsed into something that was gratuitous. He saw that. He also, I think, faulted them for not objecting enough during the prosecutions portion. He had to jump in himself on a number of occasions. And I think he's just -- he's losing his patience.

COLLINS: And -- but what is -- Judge, how does Trump's team handle that? I mean, obviously they have had a contentious relationship with the judge at times. I mean, Trump goes outside the courtroom every day and says that he's corrupt even though there's no basis from that for what I have seen, he's actually been a pretty fair judge inside that courtroom to Trump. Going out of his way to say he doesn't want to embarrass him over certain things when he's mouthing, you know, curse words as Stormy Daniels was testifying.

What is it like when there is such a tense relationship like that between the defense team and the judge?

JONES: You know, Kaitlan, I did this for almost 20 years as a presiding trial judge, and we're all too human. And sometimes tempers and anxiety and even anger get the best of all of us. It's a new day in the courtroom. I think Judge Merchan probably takes a deep breath, and hopefully goes home and gets a little bit of sleep, and comes back the next day.

He's been, in my view, on balance very fair to everybody in this case, but it boiled over a bit yesterday. I think that's just human nature, at that point. I think, at bottom, he understands they have a very difficult client on their hands. I think some of the cross- examination, quite frankly, was performative in nature, I think, to please the client and not necessarily move the ball from a probative standpoint.

COLLINS: And speaking of cross-examination, Anna, we know Michael Cohen is going to go and testify on Monday. That's when he's going to start. Trump's attorneys right now are cross-examining this AT&T executive. I think it's safe to say that is pale -- pales in comparison to what they are planning for Michael Cohen. If you are the Trump defense team, and you know Michael Cohen is going to be on the witness stand next week, how are they preparing for that?

ANNA COMINSKY, DIRECTOR, CRIMINAL DEFENSE CLINIC AT NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL: Well, listen, they have been preparing for him to testify for months and months and months and months, right? This is the key prosecution witness, right? He provides the link to these documents, to this payment, and to the alleged conspiracy. And so, they really have been thinking about this nonstop. They're -- that's all they're thinking about, and they will continue to do that over the weekend.

COLLINS: Well, Anna, I mean, do they just plan to eviscerate him? What is a tactic that they are approaching when it comes to, you know, thinking about how the jury will perceive how they handle that cross?

COMINSKY: Well, so, you know, this -- this is a great question because I think there's a couple of things they have to keep in mind. You know, it's clear that what they need to do is they have to show that he's not credible, right? That's no surprise to anyone.

But what they have to be careful with is, is what we know based on what we have seen with him is, you know, he's got the potential to be a really loose cannon. And the worst thing that you can do on cross- examination is lose witness control, right? Lose control of how the witness is responding to your questions.

So, in addition to the task of trying to show the jury that he's not credible, he's not believable, they also need to maintain control over that witness. And so, they've got to think about that while keeping in mind how the jury is going to perceive him.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, if we thought Stormy Daniels was headline worthy, I mean, Michael Cohen is only going to supersede that. Anna Cominsky, Judge Jones, thank you both for bringing your expertise as we are watching this live coverage.

JONES: Thank you.

COLLINS: I do want to turn now to some breaking news that is just into CNN as Steve Bannon could be headed to jail very soon. A D.C. appeals court has just upheld the former Trump chief strategist contempt of Congress conviction.

Paula Reid has been following this story very closely. Paula, I mean, Steve Bannon has been trying to get this overturned. What -- what's the latest?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's been going on for a while. Here, the U.S. Court of Appeals upheld this conviction. He had a four-day trial. He was convicted by a jury for criminal contempt of Congress.

[10:40:00]

Now, I would expect he will likely appeal this to the Supreme Court, so it's unclear if he will be going to jail soon. But he argued that there was certain evidence that was excluded from his case. Now, he refused to comply with a subpoena from the January 6th Committee.

He argued that he was waiting to get more clarity about potential executive privilege. But remember, he wasn't at the White House at this point, and again, the jury did not find that to be a credible reason to ignore a subpoena. He is not the only Trump ally who found themselves in this position. Peter Navarro, recently reported to federal prison to start serving a sentence for a similar conviction.

Now, he, again, they have slightly different tracks in the federal judiciary, which is why one is just taking a little bit longer, sort of luck of the draw. But yes, Peter Navarro also appealed to the Supreme Court. They were not willing to engage on this case, so he is in prison. And Steve Bannon could soon be as well.

COLLINS: I mean, it's pretty remarkable, Kristen Holmes. I mean, these are two -- they would self-describe as loudmouths, always out in front of the camera, always kind of this defiant. Didn't feel like they had to comply with that congressional subpoena. And I don't think either of them thought that it would end up in this way.

I mean, Peter Navarro certainly didn't, and he was on his way to this Miami prison. It's next to the zoo. You can hear the lion's roar, we are told by -- from this -- where this prison is. I mean, it's safe to say he did not think that he would be in this position.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, absolutely not. I mean, I think that they kind of went with the same strategy that Donald Trump himself does, which is deny, deny, delay, delay. Push this as far as we can.

I certainly think Peter Navarro never thought that he would be reporting to jail at any point. I mean, they kept pushing this through. I think, as you said, the Supreme Court saying, no thanks. It's likely that they would do the same thing with Bannon's case. And he could likely be in jail as well. I think the other thing to point out here is that both of these people are still Trump loyalists. They're still around Donald Trump.

Now, they're not nearly as close to the former president as they used to be, but it is interesting that you have these two people who are in Donald Trump's orbit. Close to him. Revere him. And now, two of them might be going to prison.

COLLINS: What could the sentence for this look like for Steve Bannon?

REID: Well, he faces, I mean, potentially years in prison, but it's unlikely he'll do that.

I just want to note that Alvin Bragg, bringing it back to Manhattan, has just made a rare appearance inside court. Now, he --

COLLINS: He's only been in there once so far, right?

REID: Yes, only once --

COLLINS: Maybe twice -- once at the beginning and then --

REID: Once at the beginning, and then one other time. And sources told me he came in the second time because several Manhattan D.A. employees were testifying. Again, as evidence, right? There are some re-witnesses because the defense attorneys won't agree to stipulate.

So, he came in to support them. But it's interesting that he's back. I wonder if we are going to hear -- we are -- we know we actually are going to hear likely today from one of the Manhattan D.A. paralegals who previously testified. She helped to get in some social media posts. It could be that that's why he's back in the court.

But I just want to note, I mean, he has taken such a different approach to this case as compared to prosecutors in Georgia and even the Attorney General of New York, Letitia James. She hit the mics on her way into court, on her way out of court. She sparred on social media with Trump. Alvin Bragg has said absolutely nothing throughout the entire course of this case. COLLINS: A lot of breaking news on multiple legal fronts. Steve Bannon may be headed to jail soon, as Paula just noted. Here in Manhattan, we are seeing a rare appearance by the district attorney inside the courtroom. We'll be watching it closely. We have several reporters inside that courtroom right now. It is a busy morning here. Much more of CNN's special live coverage. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back in moments.

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[10:45:00]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN NEWSROOM ANCHOR: Welcome back to CNN's special live coverage.

Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, bringing the historic criminal case against the former president is now inside the 100 Center Street courtroom as prosecutors question another executive from a phone company. It was, sort, of establishing how these records work and, you know, sort of a fact witnesses for the jury.

And Jeff Zeleny, I did want to go to you because Susie Wiles is also in the courtroom, we should note that that is interesting. I mean that the -- I've said this a number of times and I'll say it again, the campaign is the courthouse and the courthouse is the campaign, it seems often with this business.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: For sure. And she is of -- I mean, if you're wondering who Susie Wiles is, she was a long time of Florida Republican who is effectively running this campaign. She's the adult in the room, probably the biggest example of the difference in this Trump campaign than his previous two campaigns. She keeps things on track. She calms him. She advises him.

So, I think what we're seeing, we saw Florida Senator Rick Scott in the courtroom yesterday. It's part of the effort to ensure the former president is not alone in the courtroom as we saw in the first week. So, she's very important to this. And look, she probably also a lot is writing on this. What happens on this case is going to depend a lot on how this campaign unfolds. But I think it's mainly just being around him in his orbit there, certainly important.

She was not involved in the 2016 campaign at all. She's a newer figure. In fact, she worked for Florida Governor Ron DeSantis then, that's a whole another story. But I think her main value is to just, sort of, be there for her client who is a candidate for president.

ACOSTA: Yes, I mean, you got Susie Wiles in the courtroom with Donald Trump. You've got Steve Bannon possibly going to prison because of the ruling from the appeals court.

But, I -- Karen, I did want to ask you, why are we talking about phone records? Why is this going on? Forgive me if I sound a little, like, I don't know, a little sleepy. I --

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST AND FORMER CHIEF ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE: Look, I mean, jurors --

ACOSTA: But this is the important stuff.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Phone records matter.

ACOSTA: Phone records matter.

AGNIFILO: Jurors are going to be paying attention to the small details of who called who when. It's all about an effort to pre- corroborate to use a -- to borrow a term from Elie, to pre-corroborate Michael Cohen and to get every detail about things that Michael Cohen is going to talk about, and jurors are going to want that. They're going to want to corroborate Michael Cohen who has a conviction for lying and lying under oath, right?

[10:50:00]

So, it's kind of a big deal that these witnesses are going in. Prosecutors have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. And so, they have to do, see here's that phone record now for Allen Weisselberg.

ACOSTA: Allen Weisselberg.

AGNIFILO: It's going to show the connections between Allen Weisselberg and Donald Trump, Allen Weisselberg and Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen and Donald Trump, Michael Cohen -- you know. So, all of these records are for that.

But one other thing I just wanted to comment on, what you were saying about Susie Wiles in the courtroom, jurors notice things, like who is in the room and who's not in the room even if nobody talks about it. And it's going to be very interesting. They're also going to notice that Trump's family, by and large, is not there. His wife is not there.

ACOSTA: Yes.

AGNIFILO: And what they make of it, who knows? But they will notice.

ACOSTA: Why -- and why would Alvin Bragg come in?

AGNIFILO: So, the D.A. is -- and it's interesting that that's something that people would think is strange. The D.A. very regularly goes and walks around -- and Cy Vance was the same, which is walk around and it's -- you go to support your people. This is a high- profile case. This is a lot of stress. It's a lot of work. People don't go home and see their families when you are on trial, and they get a lot of criticism, too. The -- especially, you know, Trump says things or his supporters say things, and it's just -- sometimes it's nice to know your boss has your back.

HONIG: Let me add --

AGNIFILO: And so, that's what he goes for.

HONIG: Just to add to that. I know Alvin Bragg -- disclosure --

ACOSTA: It's cross-examination happening of the Verizon --

HONIG: The phone witness.

ACOSTA: -- official.

HONIG: Yes. I used to work with Alvin Bragg. We're colleagues, friends as well, and Todd Blanche, I should say. We all three know each other. It's a small world.

ACOSTA: Yes.

HONIG: Karen's right. In a case like this, a high-profile case, typically the head of the agency, the U.S. Attorney, the A.G., whatever it may be, the D.A., will make a show in court of support. Alvin Bragg is -- has played this quiet. He's not in the court often.

And it's interesting, Alvin Bragg in his office do not want this case to be the only thing they're known for. They just yesterday sent out their public e-mail blast. It's actually interestingly titled, What You Don't See. And I think that's maybe a little shot at all of us in the media, right? You're only seeing this. And then it's all about all their other cases. We did a retail theft ring and all that.

So -- and if you look at their materials, they want to stress, we're doing day to day, New York law enforcement --

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AND CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS: OK.

HONIG: -- even though all of the --

ACOSTA: The stuff that Donald Trump hits them on --

HONIG: Right --

ACOSTA: -- when he goes out and talks in front of a big event.

HONIG: Right, right.

BASH: OK. But --

HONIG: And let's be real --

ACOSTA: Yes, yes.

HONIG: -- the only thing anyone's ever going to remember --

BASH: Exactly.

HONIG: -- about all this is this trial.

BASH: I mean -- but, like, let's be real. There is a former president candidate --

HONIG: Of course.

BASH: -- and candidate for president sitting in their courtroom because it is a case that they brought.

HONIG: Yes.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST AND FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Sitting in a courtroom --

BASH: I mean, yes, they can do these press releases. That's their job.

HONIG: Totally agree with you.

BASH: That's their right. But like --

WILLIAMS: Sitting in a courtroom --

BASH: -- that's the reality.

WILLIAMS: -- talking about porn stars and being spanked with "Forbes" magazine and sex and intimate details.

ACOSTA: Yes.

WILLIAMS: All of the information and facts about this make it the kind of thing that people might end up tuning out the rest of the good work of the Manhattan DA's office --

ACOSTA: Yes --

WILLIAMS: -- which was frankly unfortunate.

ACOSTA: And David Urban you have been sticking around and listening to this conversation. I did want to ask you about what Karen was mentioning a few moments ago. Why haven't the Trump family members been in the courtroom with him, do you think?

DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, AND FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Yes, you know, Jim, I don't have an answer for you on that, right. I've not discussed it with them. Obviously, there have been certain members of the team there on a day-to-day basis. My guess is that, you know, you've seen Eric there once in a while. But, you know, people have jobs that they are going about, and maybe the political strategy and the legal strategy is not to have the family there.

I -- I'm not privy to the inner machinations of this -- the court case there. Susie's there today. I know the former president has a rally later tonight in Wildwood, New Jersey. And so, I suspect that's why she's there. They're going to be headed there later.

ACOSTA: Yes.

URBAN: So, you know, I think when it makes sense they're there, when it doesn't, they're not there. I -- listen, the entire family is completely supportive of the former president, that by no means does it mean they're -- but their absence means they're not supporting him.

ACOSTA: Yes. Fully supportive. I mean -- I don't know. We haven't seen Ivanka and Jared in there, have we? We haven't -- I mean --

URBAN: Yes, but kind of --

ACOSTA: They're kind of keeping some distance --

URBAN: Jim, I --

ACOSTA: it seems a little bit. It seems to me.

URBAN: Yes, I don't -- listen, I don't think that that means that they are not supportive of their father or father-in-law. I spent some time with Melania a few weeks ago down at Mar-a-Lago. She seemed to be in a good place from my judgment.

So, just because they're not sitting next to the former --

ACOSTA: Why do you suppose she's not there?

URBAN: For the obvious reasons, Jim, you know. It's a bigger distraction than I think it would be. And it's probably personally hurtful for her. I can't speak for her, but I'm just --

ACOSTA: Well, and we should know right now --

URBAN: -- suspecting. She's a human, right? She has feelings like you and I and everybody else.

ACOSTA: We should note, Bove, the defense attorney was asking the witness there a few moments ago to confirm some of these phone records. And so, that witness is now off the stand. The court is taking a brief morning break.

[10:55:00]

But I guess -- I do want to go back to Elliot Williams. Elliot, your sense of, you know, why these phone records matter and what might they be teeing up? I mean, we still have more to come this afternoon.

WILLIAMS: Yes, without question. It's setting the stage for Michael Cohen. It's -- again, you need both the documents, which can't be cross-examined, and the witness who can. And they are establishing a record for which conversations happened, which text messages might have been sent. And then you will have Cohen or someone else say what exactly was behind them.

ACOSTA: Yes, it can be a big moment, Dana, when Michael Cohen goes into that courtroom.

BASH: Moments.

ACOSTA: Yes, moments. Yes.

BASH: I feel like that's going to be no question. ACOSTA: I'm not sure. I -- David, I don't know about -- you were saying earlier that Trump's going to be able to hold it all in. I'm not so sure about that when Michael Cohen is there face to face --

URBAN: Yes, listen --

ACOSTA: I got to go --

URBAN: -- so, Jim, I think the big -- yes. The bigger question is, can Michael Cohen hold it in, right. I mean, Michael Cohen is not necessarily the most disciplined witness. And I think -- let's see what his antics hold. I think he may do more harm for the prosecution than good.

ACOSTA: All right. Well, I'm getting accused of antics here holding up the commercial break. I got to go. But jury -- the jury is now out of the courtroom. They're taking a little break right now. Donald Trump's hush money trial winding through day 15 with critical building block witnesses. You're watching CNN special live coverage. Stay right here. We'll be right back.

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