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CNN Live Event/Special

Now: Defense Cross-Examining Paralegal About Phone & Business Records; Michael Cohen Expected to Begin Testifying Monday. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired May 10, 2024 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This is the first full, full four-day week we've had in the last one that will probably have in this case.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: It's a right after this, though. It's not just Michael Cohen's testimony, it will then be the defense's term to -- turn to present their case. Do we have any idea of witnesses they may call?

REID: We do. We know they'll probably be short, much shorter than the prosecution. They're only expected to call a few witnesses. One will be an election expert. It's unclear how much of his testimony they're going to be able to get in. That is something that has been litigated. We also expect to hear from Alan Garten, a top official at the Trump Organization.

Then there's only one other witness that we believe will testify, possibly, and that is the defendant. Still an open question. Unlikely he'll take the stand. But the defense's presentation will be a fraction of the prosecution's. Really most of their case, I would say, is the cross-examination of Michael Cohen.

COLLINS: And as you noted earlier, what his team is trying to do is, they don't think they're going to be acquitted here, but they're hoping for a hung jury. They just want one juror who essentially believes there's enough reasonable doubt here. But I also think what's clear from how Trump is speaking publicly, and he'll probably speak right after they leave the courtroom here, just a few moments from now, is this is just as much about the public perception as what those 12 jurors inside the room believe.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, exactly. Well, he wants to win this case. And, you know, Donald Trump wants to win anything. Now, if you talk to anyone in his legal circle, they do not think they're going to win, as you noted. Their best bet right now is for a hung jury.

They can just persuade one single juror. And part of that is because they do believe that jury makeup is unfair, and also, they're just looking at what's been presented. They don't think they're going to have a winning argument here. But I think when you were talking about the state of play and the public perception, that's part of the reason why it's been so hard for Donald Trump to abide by this gag order, because he feels like he can't defend himself. I mean, one of the things we always talk about is the fact that Donald Trump thinks he is his own best narrator. He thinks he's his own best defense.

He thinks he should be the one up there doing the questioning. He knows what's best for him. And that also goes into the court of public opinion. One of the things he is good at is spinning a media narrative. I mean, in this case, he's having a lot harder time because there's a gag order.

COLLINS: Yes, he does think he's his own best attorney. We'll see the dynamic with his legal team, especially after that scolding from the judge get late yesterday.

All of this testimony is happening right now inside the courtroom laying the foundation for Michael Cohen. We have much more from inside the court ahead. CNN's special live coverage continues after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:37:08]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Welcome back to CNN special live coverage. I'm Dana Bash in Washington.

On Monday, Michael Cohen is expected to take the stand. Now after that, it's a wild card about who goes next and how many witnesses the former president's legal team plan to put under oath. And if the list includes the defendant, Donald J. Trump.

Our panel is back with us. You were talking in the break about how you have a story on CNN.com that I encourage everybody to look at about not so fast. Don't expect Donald Trump. Having said that, you know, we should sort of remind our viewers that what we have seen so far in these many weeks certainly since the witnesses have come up, these are the prosecution's witnesses. And the question is, who, if anyone, will the defense bring up.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So one of the big questions out there is how long, how long is this all going to take? The prosecution will continue next week with Michael Cohen. Next week is a three-day week. There's no court on Wednesday. There's never a court on Wednesday and there's no court on Friday.

Michael Cohen will take, I believe, all of that three weeks and perhaps into the next week, which is also a three-day week. Michael Cohen will not be the prosecution's last witness. You don't want to go end on a potentially shaky risky note. So there will be a couple witnesses, I think, after Michael Cohen, then it will be up to the defense.

Now, first of all, no defendant ever has to put on any case. And it happens quite frequently that defense lawyers will stand up and say, we have no case, your honor. That sounds we're seeing this. We're not presenting any witness and any witnesses, your honor. We believe the prosecution has failed to carry its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

I do not think there's any chance Donald Trump takes a stand. We can talk more about why, but in short, it would be completely self- destructive. I think it would flip any chance he has of beating this case or getting a hung jury. Paula reported earlier that they -- the defense may call an election law expert.

And I think what that person wants to do is show there's a lot of gray area. There's a lot of scenarios and hypotheticals where if you ask -- even an expert will go, well, it depends. It depends on the subjective state of mind, and that could cause confusion with the jury, the kind of confusion you want if you're Donald Trump's team. And they may have some other witnesses from inside the Trump organization who will distance Trump from the financing and accounting.

BASH: I just want to quickly ask Bryan about that because you know how the former president operates, and can you see a world in which he acquiesces if his defense team says we're only going to bring an election lawyer or we're not going to put up very many people and doesn't say no, I want these people to be up there and I want them defending me and here's what I want them to say?

BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP-PENCE CAMPAIGN: Listen, he's going to have very strong opinions of who he wants on there. I'm sure the attorney is going to have, you know, strong recommendations, but I know who's going to win. I mean, you have to remember, you know, his audience is definitely those jurors, but it's also what we're seeing here, the television responses and having an election lawyer complicate things.

Listen, I've worked in politics for 25 years, elections specifically, I have two different lawyers and FECs. I rarely get them to agree.

[12:40:04]

And so you're right, it is going to confuse this. And then you have to go to motive at that particular time, not motive in February or in March of when he found out and said, oh, this could have caused us trouble, but motive at that particular time. And that's completely reliant on Michael Cohen, who, you know, let's be honest, probably has less credibility than George Santos. And we all know we can't trust George Santos.

HONIG: Bryan, you know, Donald Trump. I don't. Do you see any scenario where he actually does take the stand?

LANZA: No.

HONIG: No.

BASH: You want to make one quick -- ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No. And so, we're thinking about

the defendant taking the stand. It's also, the defense does not have to put on any case at all. And more often than not, does not the juror -- the judge will often and should instruct the jury that the defendant has the right, not just to not testify, but not to put on any case at all. And you should not hold that against him. That was sort of some of the problem in Stormy Daniels's tweet calling into question his choice maybe to not testify.

BASH: Yes. And Kaitlan, we know that there are people who thought that taking a longer time with Stormy Daniels this week when the president's -- former president's defense team got to cross examine might not have been the best legal strategy, but it was something that it was clear from your reporting and others that their client wanted.

COLLINS: Yes, they spent more time cross-examining her than they did in the direct examination. It's just remarkable. She's the prosecution's witness, Dana. Of course, we are watching all of this and, you know, we were hearing story Daniels testify about the paranormal. Now we're hearing like from a paralegal.

It's like the tail, the head spinning that has happened inside this courtroom for this jury of what they were hearing just yesterday morning to now they're walking through these documents, these call records. But this could be really critical for next week if Michael Cohen is testifying to something and a juror could say, oh yes, I remember seeing that in the call records on Friday or I saw that that text message happened between Hope Hicks and whomever.

REID: Yes, I think this is like we said, it's going to be very multimedia in terms of the direct and the cross. You're going to see a lot of pieces of evidence, you're going to hear him in his own words on a social media account calls that he's recorded. There's going to be a ton of evidence that is going to come in.

So all of the folks that we're seeing today, look, this is definitely like, you know, all right, Jersey, your vegetables, listen about metadata. It's not the most exciting, but it will matter next week, especially in the chaos that is Michael Cohen. Jurors will have a chance to assess individual pieces of evidence as he testified. So this will all matter next week, even if today it's pretty dry.

COLLINS: What's the sense, Kristen, of Trump's view of his legal team? That's always such a subject of scrutiny just given. It -- I mean, I remember when he was being impeached and his attorneys quit two weeks before the impeachment trial actually started. I mean, it's always been kind of the source of friction and chaos, you know, no matter who it is that is representing him.

HOLMES: Yes, so I was told that essentially there are good days and bad days, that Donald Trump gets along with his attorneys, but there are some days that are better than others. But that according to people around him who have been through various iterations of legal teams, this is really as good as it's going to get. And particularly when it comes to Todd Blanche. Now, that does not mean that Donald Trump doesn't go home after court, is alone at Trump Tower, call people and complain about how he thinks that Blanche should be more aggressive, or his team should be more aggressive. But overall, he's not cursing them out all the time. He's not saying why aren't you doing this?

He does believe that this is the best team that he has right now. Now, again, the caveat here is that it's Donald Trump, and that he always believes that he is his own best defender. We've seen in court, he'll hit one of his lawyers, try to slide them notes, trying to clearly goad them into getting up there. And they don't always listen, don't always follow that.

COLLINS: I mean, he was nudging Susan Necheles. I was watching during the Stormy Daniels testimony to get her to stand up and object more. And I can only imagine, if he was doing that with Stormy Daniels on the witness stand, what's going to -- it's going to look like when Michael Cohen is on the witness stand.

HOLMES: Well, you actually saw Susan Necheles get more aggressive. I mean, part of her cross-examination became more aggressive. At one point, the judge even said, you have to let Stormy Daniels answer. I mean, some of that is for the client. I mean, he thought she did a good job, and he wanted her to do that pressing, and then she did.

So, I think when you talk about the dynamic within the team, right now, he knows that he's not going to fire them and get a new lawyer in the middle of all of this. But he is also happy with some of what they're doing. As happy as Donald Trump can be when it comes to the fact that he's sitting in the middle of a criminal trial.

REID: It's a real challenge because this is going to be Todd Blanche doing the cross-examination of Michael Cohen. It's been his sole focus throughout the course of this trial. And Michael Cohen is a smart guy. He can also be quite charming. And you have to find this balance because the case actually, again, succeeds or fails on this testimony.

With Stormy Daniels, you can get into some theatrics and you're like, how is this playing with the jury? But this could make or break the case for the defendant. So this is a delicate dance for Todd Blanche.

[12:45:05]

You don't want to throw sympathy to Michael Cohen. But we've seen when Michael Cohen testified in another trial, he got in a shouting match in one of the civil trials with Trump's lawyer. So this is going to be fascinating to watch.

COLLINS: Yes. And he clearly has a lot to say.

REID: No doubt.

COLLINS: I mean, they've been pointing to his social media. What he's been saying there?

REID: This is what makes him so problematic, not just for the prosecution, but for the judge, right? He's even starting to let some of the gag order alleged violations slide because he does see that Cohen is attacking him. And this is what makes him such a challenging witness.

It's not just the multiple convictions, it's the fact that he has made a career, almost his entire identity, is attacking Trump, being an adversary to Trump, the defendant. And if you're the linchpin to the case, this is a really problematic thing for the prosecution, and a huge opportunity for the defense.

COLLINS: And this testimony right now about call logs, building towards that main event, when Michael Cohen does take the witness stand. Much more of CNN's special live coverage right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:50:36]

BASH: Welcome back to CNN special live coverage. Testimony for the day is done. There is now a back and forth over jury instructions. The prosecution says it plans to call two witnesses next week. And today, the jury got a taste of what's to come.

On Monday, we do expect Michael Cohen to go under oath and his testimony expected to feature that phone call between the fixer and the former president of the United States, among many other things.

Thanks everybody for being here. So let me just ask because the testimony is done, but they're still in and they're haggling over some questions about -- well, tell me what they're haggling over right now, what matters?

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So right now, they're doing some scheduling questions. They're saying who's going to be called, and the prosecution is saying they might be done next week. And what they mean by that is they don't know how long Michael Cohen's going to go on cross, but they're going to be done next week with their witnesses.

And it looks like they just have two people left. One short witness, and then Michael Cohen. He's obviously the big witness there. Now, Chris Conroy, who's another prosecutor, says the prosecution wants to submit Weisselberg's severance agreement into evidence, the defense objects.

These are just -- these are things that they're just arguing over housekeeping things that people -- that the prosecution and the defense have asked, can we put this in? Can we not put that in? These are the types of things they do when the jury is not in the room and when the jury is excused. When the jury is there and present, the judge is very mindful of their time and it's going to only be doing witnesses and things like that.

BASH: Another severance agreement are reporting from the room that is under discussion is between Weisselberg -- HONIG: Explain why I think that's relevant.

BASH: Yes. Sure.

HONIG: Because Weisselberg is not going to be called as a witness in this case.

BASH: Because he's in jail.

HONIG: Well, he's in prison, but you can bring people over from prison, but he would take the fifth. He's already been convicted of perjury. Neither side is going to call him. That usually works to the disadvantage of prosecutors because defense lawyers will stand up and say, folks, Allen Weisselberg is a crucial player here.

They have the burden of proof. They didn't call him. You can hold that against him. And I think what the prosecutors want to do is be able to explain why he was given this. I think it's $2 million severance.

BASH: Exactly. You say it here, it comes out there.

HONIG: Oh there you go. Wow.

BASH: Any broadcast news references that I can give today (ph).

HONIG: Yes.

BASH: He's an uncalled witness, government witness, Bove says of Weisselberg saying the prosecution's theory is that he conspired with Cohen. Bove, quote, "Mr. Weisselberg's absence from this trial --

HONIG: Yes.

BASH: -- is a very complicated."

HONIG: So exactly. So the defense is going to have a field day with this. They're going to say, no Weisselberg, crucial player, they didn't call him. Prosecutors want to be able to say, but here's why. And one of the things by showing the severance agreement, they want to say essentially the Trump org and Donald Trump have paid this guy a huge amount of money as severance, and that's why he remains loyal to them, and that sort of weighs into the decision not to call him.

One other thing to note is, Elie's right, you don't -- the defense doesn't have to put on any witnesses, they don't have to cross examine witnesses, they don't have to open, they don't have to do anything, and it's always the prosecution's burden. However, if they choose to put on a defense, and they choose to put on witnesses, the prosecution can make the argument, they chose not to call Allen Weisselberg, and you can hold that against them.

BASH: Mr. Weisselberg is in prison right now, and not available to anyone, Bove says. As they haggle over this, Jeff, I want to ask that old question. How's it playing in Peoria? Because you have been on the road. You have talked to voters and it is not to diminish the importance of what is happening in the minute by minute case here. But the ultimate question -- and we definitely don't know the answer to this because we don't know how this case is going to end up. But just in terms of the voters right now, how are they sort of taking this in or are they?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I would say no. The voters that I --

BASH: Go ahead.

ZELENY: -- was talking to this week out in Wisconsin, of course, it's a pivotal state. That's where the former president was last week, President Biden was this week, are largely not paying attention to it. And any Republican I talked to not interested in it. They believe that this is old news. And the Democrat, they're happy to see him as a defendant.

So the bottom line is we still -- this is unsatisfying, but we still do not know the political fallout from this case. I will have to wait and see, I think. But as we end this week, a very -- we've talked about a personal this trial is. And seeing Stormy Daniels on witness stand.

[12:55:06]

The former president has a chance to rebut some of this himself at a rally tomorrow night in New Jersey. We'll see if he does that, of course. Stormy Daniels was tweeting this morning. We'll see if he does that, but still now the politics of this are uncertain if, you know, sort of changing at all.

BASH: Bryan, quick final word.

LANZA: Listen, I think the politics are being shaped by the coverage. I mean, that's the one thing that President Trump understands better than anybody else, is why you see him nudging his attorney to speak up so that we're talking about reporting it.

And the coverage hasn't been great for the prosecution. You know, the first week you have him being leveraged, which is blackmail, the second week you have, you know, Stormy Daniels sort of talking about these things. I mean, if you're -- I'm not a lawyer, you know, we have plenty of them here, but if you're -- you know, if I was a prosecution, you know, I did watch the O.J. Simpson's, you know, series in college so I feel somewhat expertise.

But I don't think they've proven their case. I mean, their case isn't, you know, that Trump had this alleged affair. Their case is that he willfully conspired to conceal this payment for his election in November. I don't think they've hit that.

And well -- and adding Michael Cohen is sort of the biggest leap, proven liar, convicted liar. We certainly didn't trust him in the campaign. I was told by Trump org not to trust everything he says.

BASH: Bryan -- LANZA: It's hard.

BASH: -- we're out of time. We appreciate you coming on and joining the panel. Thanks to all of you. I always learn a lot from all of you.

Testimony in Donald Trump's hush money trial is done for the day. On Monday, the big show Michael Cohen under oath. CNN special live coverage picks up on the other side after a very quick break.